Talk:Shadow the Hedgehog/Archive 4

Criticism Section

I believe that there should be a criticism section for Shadow the Hedgehog, seeing as out of Japan, he is very disliked. Klaus Kratchet Feb. 4, 2007

• And yet, the official polls claim him as the second most popular character. Hm.

• Criticism sections are a can of worms. In some cases I see a use for them, in others they just spiral out of control as everyone adds every nitpick going. There's no doubting Shadow is a controversial character. Older fans tend to see him as a cheap annoying angst character trying to attract the emo/punk rock market, younger fans see him as this awesome character who the series would die without. There's also the fans, like myself, who try not to lean towards either extreme. There are things I like and dislike about the character. For this article though I'm not seeing much point in highlighting fan response to the character. As said, official response at least implies he's fairly popular. A criticism section will just lead to edit wars. We've already had Shadow fans blank the Sonic page to put nonsense like "Sonic sucks, long live Shadow!". We shouldn't be fanning the flames.--HellCat86 15:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Besides, it's all fan tastes, and nobody cares about those. GrandMasterGalvatron 15:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Now, I don't see a problem lisitng the "controversial" aspects of the character (such as the fact that he's a "black" hedgehog, and he uses a gun--as pointed out by VGCats). We just need to make sure that there's decent sources for anything said. In my opinion, no criticism is as bad as random nitpicking. King Zeal 15:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

In a series of LCD McDonalds games (to promote Sonic Heroes), he played basketball. It's a miracle his theme tune isn't rap music. Harley Quinn hyenaholic 16:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok...any claims about Shadow being "black" are unfounded. Knuckles is way "blacker" than Shadow will ever be XDGrandMasterGalvatron 17:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Please, we don't need to put criticisms on any character, or someone will want one on every character. People will get all fired up about (probably true) stuff people have said about characters. Heres a taste of the stuff people would say. Shadow: a contreversial swearing gunwielding murderer who is actually a hatefull alien. Sonic: it is rumored the that he and Tails are going steady Big: a fat cat which is said to be stupid or retarted. Eggman: an overweight feminist guy who doesn't shave Amy: a girl who just won't give up Rouge: a trampy flirtacious woman who can't make up her mind between two men. Tails: a thought to be gay fox Metal Sonic: a insane sycopath robot and the list would go on and on with fans agrilly unediting worthy edits, and non fans maliciously posting the downfalls of characters they hate. Eventually, Wikipedia would get sick of it and remove the whole category. Now do you want that? By the way, Shadow is not "black" just like Silver is not "white". The racist view that a persons skin color affects ANYTHING should not creepy it's filth into our videogames. The fact that an anthromorphic ANIMAL's fur is a certain color doesn't make them a corresponing human race, Tails is yellow does that make his Asian? NO, because SEGA is not a sick as everyone makes them, Shadow is not "black", Sonic is not gay, and Big is probably not retarted (he can't be smart though). Thank you.

I want you to know that it is referred to as skin in Shadow the hedgehog game when Black Doom says: "Our race is marked by jet black and crimson skin...Just like YOU." Even so, I agree about the racism thing. Just know that's not fur, it's skin. 207.74.196.20 17:21, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't delete relationships from the Archie Comics

As a character that doesn't have separate articles for different incarnations, all relationships pertaining to this character have a place in this article. Denjo

Odd link

As a joke i searchd HYPER Shadow and it brought me straght to Shadows page. im a bit confused so can someone tell me how this happend.62.31.120.177 22:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Ummmmm....because of his super form?

   Beacuse Shadows Super form is not called Hyper Shadow, it is Super Shadow. this is a common mistake for fans.

--Sonicobbsessed-The Self-Proclamed Ultamate Sonic Fan 20:19, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

STC-O!

Shouldn't there be some mention of the events with Shadow in the new online version of STC? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.137.121.11 (talk) 15:22, 24 December 2006 (UTC).

-- I don't think this is worthy of mentioning because it is not official. Sonic the Comic Online is fan-made. In the true Sonic the Comic series, Shadow had not yet appeared, so no reference to his appearance in the comics should not be posted in this article. Oh, and I do have an account, but I'm not logged in right now. --69.210.123.36 23:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe a separate article should be made regarding STC Online? It is after all endorsed by the Fleetway squad. Or is there one already? Harley Quinn hyenaholic 21:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Super Job! You Win!

I really enjoy your page! It is well written and deserves an award. If one of you'd come to the Neon Apocalypse (that's me) talk page and claim the prize, you wont be sorry.

                                       l l
                                        U
                                       OOO -your prize is waiting

Heroes???

In recent games, like Sonic The Hedgehog Shadow and Rouge act more like Heroes, rather than anti-heroes. Should they be in the heroes section.

Not really. Shad only saves people (sans Maria, Rouge, and possibly Omega), because it has to be done, not because he wants to. That's completely different from Sonic. And Rouge, she usually only does something heroic if she profits from it (jewels, the Mater Emerald, yada yada yada). So...yep, while they might show heroic qualities, they're still anti-heroes. ChromeWulf ZX 20:33, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

--I pretty much agree with the above statement. Shadow and Rouge should be considered Anti-Heroes, and heck, I still consider Silver and Blaze Anti-Heroes as well. Moreso Blaze than Silver, but both of them nonetheless. I do think that the actions throughout the series should be considered, anyway. On my website, I'm not also starting to credit Knuckles as an Anti-Hero as well. He, like Shadow, only saves the world truly because he has to. Hey, what's the use of guarding the Master Emerald if the world is destroyed in the process?! And yes, I do have an account, but I'm too lazy to login right now.--69.210.123.36 23:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

---Yeah, but in Sonic Heroes, Knuckles saved the world and the Master Emerald was not even mentioned. Apart from that (and the Silver and Blaze bit), you're right, Shadow is still an anti-hero.Roxyr 21:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, Knux usually won't hesitate to help Sonic, which is something Shad would only do in dire moments. Plus, Silver is a hero, he was just misguided by Mephiles. And Blaze...well that's slightly tough. She's a hero, but an introverted and stern hero. ChromeWulf ZX 19:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with ChromeWulf. 83.31.124.218

I think he SHOULD be in the hereo's section, he almost died saving the world from space colony ark.

But, he wouldn't have done anything if Amy hadn't reminded him of Maria's words. Shad is still an antihero. ChromeWulf ZX 16:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

A person's status should be based on their actions throughout the series, not their current standings. For example, GUN is NOT a heroic military organization, as they ruthlessly murdered all the people aboard ARK out of their own fear of the Ultimate Lifeform. They killed Maria and Gerald, and they wrongfully imprissoned Sonic and friends, and continued to attack them throughout SA2, even after they told the President they were only trying to save the world. In Shadow the hedgehog (game) where they are depicted as far more good than past incarnations, they are ordered to kill Shadow regardless of weather he decides to be a hero or not. They are a Neutral Allignment Organization, and the reason they are considered good is that they are generally the lesser evil, like Eggman. Shadow started out as more evil than Eggman (wants to destroy the world) until he heroicly decides to save it (without him they never would have been able to stop the Biolizard) but forgets everything and starts with a clean slate as an Anti Hero. He fights Eggman, but for selfish purposes in Sonic heroes, with no regard for actual heroics. In Shadow the hedgehog although there is not a SEGA aprroved Canon route, his actions in that game can be anywhere from Brave Hearted Hero to Black Hearted Evil. Assume he is either neutral or not too far either way in that game for the canon route. In Sonic06 he has joined GUN (a neutral organization) shortly after killing all black arms (a good deed). In rivals he wants to stop Eggman to resque Rouge (fairly heroic). So currently he is an Anti Hero who is leaning towards good, but altogether he is a neutral Anti Hero.

Odd, the picture on the top is messed up, and I didn't touch it!

How can I fix it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chao9999 (talk • contribs) 21:46, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

Likes dislikes

Shadow hardly dislikes mankind anymore. That website is a bit out of date, Shadows profile probaly hasnt been updated since SA 2. So i dont think his likes should be nothing, and his dislikes mankind. Rouge even says in Sonic The Hedgehog that Shadow is always here to defend the world.

I agree with what you say about his likes because he sure likes Rouge, but I don't know if he stopped disliking mankind. It is after all possible he saves the mankind only because that's what he was made for, not because he cares about them in any way. (-crap- besides he can't let the world be destroyed because Rouge would die too -/crap-) 83.31.124.218

Haven't you heard? Rouge is in love with knuckles

Lovelife

The person who keeps mentioning ShaodwxTikal is partially right. The two are often featured together. If you go on YouTube and put in Shadow Tikal, you'll get quite a bit of slides, although most of them are done by the same person.71.209.183.185 23:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)anon

But that pairing is fanon! ChromeWulf ZX 23:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

No, it is not, they have NEVER met. so its not possible. Neofcon

Shadow's Speed...Again

Someone keeps putting down inaccurate info that Shad's running speed is the same as Sonic's. That's false as no one knows how fast he is wihtout his Air Shoes. Cut it out, and stop putting in bulls---. There already was one edit war on this and I don't want another. Get your facts straight and then put down something useful. ChromeWulf ZX 02:30, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

In the episode where Rouge gets trapped in the vault with the chaos emeralds, when sonic was locked up on an island by the government. When they battle later, Shadow DIDN'T use his air shoes, he ran normally, and kept AT THE EXACT PACE with sonic, that proof enough??

Keep in mind that Shad uses speed moves that match Sonic. There is a problem with the logic that you have, UTC. Because if he was, as you feel, with unknown speed, he could never do all the speed moves he has, and exactly keep up with Sonic. The only way he could do that is if he was even with Sonic in speed. Also, in the Sonic Heroes manual, it says, and I quote:"Created by the renowned scientist Professor Gerald at the peak of his career, this black hedgehog is the dark incarnation of Sonic, MATCHING HIM IN BOTH SPEED AND ABILITIES." I should add that Sonic Heroes is canon.---Ovi

That's the same manual that fubarred Rouge's age which started a MAJOR edit war. I wouldn't trust is as far as reliable data goes. How fast he is without his skates is irrelevant. What matters is how fast he is with them. He has been shown to match, and on occasion exceed Sonic's speed. However, Sonic has been said many a time to be the fastest character, and the other contenders, Shadow, Metal Sonic, and Metal Knuckles have been retconned in order to compensate that.GrandMasterGalvatron 15:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Fine, I can live with that. I just don't want another edit war, that's all. ChromeWulf ZX 16:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I know this is late but cant it just be settled with: Shadow's speed RIVALS Sonic's, and leave it at that?Cigraphix 01:25, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Most games make Shadow's and Sonic's running speed exactly the same so that in two player mode, or when playing as a particular team, or fighting a certain boss, you won't have an advantage/disadvantage. This is usually compensated by Sonic having extremely rapid leg movement, and Shadow just taking his time with his legs, but having the rockets on. So, at the very least, Shadow wouldn't get tired as fast as Sonic, and if he exerted himself, and had his shoes on even if his physical running ability is less than Sonic's, WITH THE SHOES HE WOULD BE ABLE TO EXCEED SONIC'S SPEED IF HE MATCHED THE RAPIDITY OF HIS LEG MOVEMENT. END OF STORY.

You have proven nothing. You are assuming that Shadow is just taking it easy with his legs, but he may already be pushing himself to his limit. Also realize that skating requires certain strides that emphasize the power in pushing oneself forward, not how fast one can move their legs. Finally, neither Sonic's or Shadow's endurance has ever been shown to be exhausted by running, so the possiblity exists that Sonic's endurance is so much greater than Shadow's that the advantage of Shadow's skates is lost. In fact it is easier to argue that Sonic is faster than Shadow: in Sonic the Hedgehog 06 made directly by Sonic Team, Sonic is obviously faster; the only game where Shadow is faster is Sonic Battle, a game made by Dimps with only supervision from Sonic Team who may have overlooked it (and we all know their attention to detail is legendary, or is that notorious), and making Shadow faster may also have merely been a gameplay mechanic to balance out the difficulty in using some of Shadow's moves. So it seems that Sonic 06 trumps Sonic Battle in the importance on who is faster. Bottom line there are only TWO possiblities on this arguement:

1. They are equal, as has been stated multiple times by Sega/Sonic Team

2. Sonic is faster

I am certain that the consensous agrees with me when I say we should support #1. Cigraphix 22:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

One more thing, how fast Shadow is without his skates/air shoes is not worth mentioning in his article. He has never and probably will never be without them. And most who can skate, skate faster than they run, so Shadow's running speed without them is likely slower than when he skates with them if he ever does take them off. Cigraphix 23:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

You're forgetting Shadow the hedgehog (game). He's faster in that too. Also, SEGA has stated that they're equal so that Sonic will retain his fastest thing alive title. Their endurance has not shown to be exausted by running cause it would be retarted if you're playing a video game and suddenly your character stops and pants, and there's nothing you can do about it. I see your point but I'm afraid I disagree. First you have NO basis to claim that Sonic's endurance is higher. Could Sonic have survived the fall from Space Colony ARK (which Shadow did with only a bump on the head hard enough to give amnesia)? It's safe to say that hedgehog's naturally have speed (Shadow, Sonic, Amy, and Silver, all fairly fast) but that their own physical strength in the legs amplifies their speed (which is why Sonic is faster than Amy, he's a 15 year old man, and she's a 12 year old girl). Shadow's arm strength is proven by him LIFTING BUSSES WITH ONE HAND. In addition to that Sonic X showed Shadow to be faster. If nothing else, Shadow COULD HAVE THE CAPACITY TO GO FASTER USING HIS AIR SHOES, and SONIC AND SHADOW ARE OF EQUAL OR SIMILAR SPEED IF SHADOW WAS WITHOUT HIS SHOES. WITH THE SHOES WHEN ONE HAS A SPEED ADVANTAGE, IT IS NEVER VERY MUCH, SO IT IS SAFE TO ASSUME THEY ARE SIMILAR IN SPEED WITH THE SHOES. Besides, even if Sonic was faster, Shadow could win a race easily over Sonic using Chaos Control.

You never touched upon my arguement about how Shadow may already be going as fast as he can (which has mostly equalled Sonic - your best example of Shadow being faster in his self titled game had all helper characters seem to be generically made, so Sonic was not that different from Rouge or Tails) and you completely ignored the arguement that how fast Shadow is without his skates is unimportant since he may never be shown without them. My "Sonic is faster" arguement was made to illustrate how easy it is to dispute the "Shadow is faster" arguement, the point being that because we do not know for sure, it should not be even speculated on here. The endurance point explained that we have NO idea what the endurance levels of either character are, leaving open the POSSIBILITY the Sonic's is so much greater than Shadow's (and actually one could argue it as being true by pointing out that while Sonic has been racing around the world non-stop for many years, Shadow's been couped up on ARK and then imprisoned by GUN for nearly all of his 50 years of existance - but that is fancruft and inadmissable). And I didn't mention anything about any other type of endurance other than how long they can run without getting tired, so I don't know why you're talking about Shadow's plummet to Earth (and he could have been saved by Eggman's robot in midair - how that robot saved him was left unexplained in Shadow's game - also Sonic survived a similar fall in the beginning of Sonic X's Meterex Saga after his first battle with Dark Oak). Your theory explaining all hedgehogs' speed is just your theory, it has not been mentioned or hinted at in-game so it is fancruft. And I do not remember Shadow ever out-running Sonic in Sonic X unless he used Chaos Control (an ability that, let me remind you, Sonic can use himself). And Sonic already tossed aside the arguement that using Chaos Control means Shadow is faster than he is: quote from Sonic Adventure 2, "Wow he's fast. Wait, its not his speed, he must be using the Chaos Emerald to warp." Cigraphix 17:54, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Alright I am terrible at debates and I think my point is not being made clearly enough. There is too much of an arguement both ways to say one is faster than the other, therefore we must go with what Sega/Sonic Team has said: they are equal. Sega/Sonic Team created both of these characters, therefore they know what they created and are not wrong. Saying that they made Shadow better than Sonic and then retconned it is just wrong since they have ALWAYS said they are equal. And just to state this once more: how fast Shadow is without his skates is not important - he will probably never be without them... ever. Cigraphix 00:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Thanks for the debate. I still think that with his shoes Shadow would e faster if he tried hard enough, but since SEGA has made little statement or proof for this, we should simply state that he can run as fast as Sonic, if anything is changed. CASE CLOSED. (Espio: Let's move Vector, we have other case's to take care of.) THE CHAOTIX ROX, and SHADOW DOES TOO!

If you read Sonic06 offical book it stated I Quote "Gerard manipulated shadow's genes so that he NEVER TIRES,never grows old." which means IF SHADOW GOES AGAINEST SONIC IN A RACE WITHOUT HIS AIR SHOES HE WILL LAST MUCH LONGER.

Crazed Shadow fanatics don't give up do you? Nitpicking the arguement *sigh*. Well I'll have to take your word on that quote but the Sonic side still has a comeback that can counter that. In SA2's Super Sonic/Super Shadow vs FinalHazard battle, at around the 4 minute mark Shadow himself says: "Hahaha, Sonic! I think I've discovered what the Ultimate Life Form is... it might be you!" [1] This can be taken in one of either two ways:

1. Shadow is admitting Sonic's superiority

2. Sonic might be a naturally created Ultimate Life Form while Shadow is an artificial one.

This continues to prove that both sides are too strong an arguement to choose who would beat who. But as stated before, Sega/Sonic Team CREATED the characters, therefore Sega/Sonic Team KNOWS the characters (better than any fanboy, I must add), therefore if Sega/Sonic Team SAYS they are equal, then they MUST BE equal. I used to think saying "Shadow's speed rivals Sonic's" was a good compromise with the Shadow fanatics, but they won't give up, so I must say that we have to go with the offical source. Cigraphix 15:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Eggman's Uncle?

How is Shadow Eggman's uncle? I get the whole 'adopted father' bit- Gerald Robotnik, but Uncle to Eggman? Are you sure? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.47.69.6 (talk) 19:21, 15 January 2007 (UTC).

Just because Shad is Gerald's adopted son (see the game SHtH's Last Story to see what I'm talking about), doesn't mean he is Eggman's uncle. Whoever keeps adding that tidbit, STOP! ChromeWulf ZX 04:07, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Shadow is Gerald's non-biological son as he created him. Therefor, Shadow could be considered Eggman's non-boilogical uncle.

Shadow may have been adopted by Gerald as his son, but he has never been claimed by Eggman as his Uncle. Eggman more often claims (in Archie, anyway) that Shadow is his property. They are not related. Harley Quinn hyenaholic 19:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Edits by 207.74.196.20

207.74.196.20 has made some changes which seem to be reverting to some prior version, although I'm not quite sure which one. Some of the phrasing seems better in that version, but it also contains extraneous external links and lacks section headings. I've reverted these changes twice, but I suppose it's best to discuss them here rather than doing it again. So, colleagues, what do you think? --Sopoforic 18:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Shadow Adroids

People keep saying that in Shadow the Hedgehog multiplayer, the black and red android is the real shadow. Not only is there no official evidence that he is the real shadow, but the manual AND the official website state that all the characters in multiplayer are androids. But people keep reverting my edits that it is also an android like the others. MindWraith 02:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems the most likely that the red Shadow is the real one, but, of course, Sonic Team has said nuthin' to back up this theory. So, for now, take it out. ChromeWulf ZX 17:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The official website says nothing on the subject. Gurko 09:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The official website says "you and a friend"..."with your shadow android". It says they are androids, and makes no mention that any of them are real.MindWraith 03:17, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Ahh...good point. Yeah, the characters in battle mode are all androids. ChromeWulf ZX 14:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

F.Y.I. people who don't completely read the info for Shadow, it says for 2 player mode, "All the Androids CLAIM to be the REAL Shadow, even though they're all androids." So read all the things under Shadow the Hedgehog, like I did, then complain!!! Any questions, E-mail me at melody_the_hedgehog@yahoo.com

Possible Vandalism

I saw this text within Shadow's wiki page:

He also gets constipated every Monday and likes the color purple, as it is his favorite color.... OF THE RAINBOW!!!!--203.99.237.39 08:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

That's vandalism. It happens. Just remove it. --InShaneee 14:25, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of vandalism, who put shadow in the "Narccicist" category? thats just stupid.

Not really. He does think of himself as the best thing since sliced bread and cream cheese. What do you think the whole "ultimate life form" bit was about? XDGrandMasterGalvatron 15:48, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Shadow and Rouge

Some interesting data from Sonic Rivals's script:

NEGA: Heh heh heh... I'm here to change my destiny! I come from a long line of brilliant scientists, but that lineage was disrupted with Dr. Eggman's failures! As a result, I have been denied my destiny as the world has refused to recognize my brilliance! So by removing Dr. Eggman's life and failed attempts as success, I will alter our family history forever! Now enough of this chit-chat. Once I set Rouge's card into the rocket, it's all over! Just relax and enjoy the moment...For it will be your last! Now if you'll just excuse me... Heh heh heh...

Shadow: Not so fast Eggman NEGA! That card's mine!

Apparently, Shadow's repeated saves of Rouge are not mission based. This seems to be even more proof that there is something going on between the two of them. Where it goes is an opinionated guess, but perhaps this could be used in the article?GrandMasterGalvatron 17:07, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, isn't that obvious? I'm also (if you are) upset that both Shadow's and Rouge's articles (to me) lack for detailed information about them as a couple and there's barely any note about them being so close. There's not even a mention about how he catches her in Sonic the Hedgehog instead of the Scepter, and I think it's worth posting. 83.31.136.21 17:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with that, but Knux x Rouge fans will be angry... ChromeWulf ZX 03:44, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Poor knuckles. First shadow stole his role as the series bad ass now Shadows stealin his gal. Delsait 01:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, the section as a whole is up for deletion as it's mostly breeding grounds for shippers. However, Shadow would be one of the few exceptions as the interaction he has with other characters has a direct effect on his personality and outlook. Shadow definitely feels duty bound to protect Rouge, but we don't know why.GrandMasterGalvatron 15:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems most likely that Shadow and Rouge are a close but not romantic relationship and probably will stay that way. In SA2, when Shadow first saves her, he seems to equate it with saving Maria, thus he may see buried deep inside Rouge the same qualities he saw in Maria (she does have a hidden heart, and i'm not refering to her clothing style cause she sometimes shows sympathy for others-she just rarely acts on it). And she has proven to be the one true friend he actually has without Maria (especially since Omega is supposed to be reprogramed to bring him down in the future). However in Sonic06, compared to when Rouge and Shadow meet and they act casual and more like friends (shes even more concerned with the scepter), when Rouge meets Knuckles she becomes more emotional, like a school girl with a crush (and the same goes toward Knuckles-except hes a boy). Her flirting is just part of her personality as she is described as "overflowing with feminete charm" and kinda seems to use it to get her way sometimes - but that part may never actually confirmed. I think she was even flirty with Tails in Sonic Battle and would have probably been with Sonic if he wasnt throwing sarcasm back at her, so her remark calling Shadow handsome isn't unexpected. Also she may be so loyal to Shadow because of how many freakin times he saved her butt sparked a feeling of friendship. This situation reminds me of when the fan community was so convinced that either the original Shadow who knew Maria died in the escape capsule, or Maria was simply made up by Gerald to convince Shadow to carry out his insane plan in SA2, but either way the current Shadow from SA2 never actually met Maria and all his memories of her were fake. We all know it turned out that it turned out that the only false memory was how Gerald changed Maria begging to make the ppl of the world happy, Shadow was the original Shadow, and it was the existance of the Biolizard that caused the confusion - and i predicted it the whole time so please dont take my Shadow x Rouge arguement with a grain of salt. Cigraphix 19:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Shadow Androids

F.Y.I. people who don't completely read the info for Shadow, it says for 2 player mode, "All the Androids CLAIM to be the REAL Shadow, even though they're all androids." So read all the things under Shadow the Hedgehog, like I did, then complain!!! Any questions, E-mail me at melody_the_hedgehog@yahoo.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.219.68.130 (talk) 19:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

Neutral

We really don't need a view stating that Shadow is on "thin ice" with certain characters.

The only one that would really apply to "Neutral" is Eggman.Nick McMillen 03:32, 10 February 2007 (UTC)Nick McMillen

Exactly, Shadow is best friends with Knux, Tails, Amy... (/sarcasm) -_- 83.31.112.130 14:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Notice after the slash where it says "Allies."Nick McMillen 20:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC)Nick McMillen

shadow is definelty not friends with sonic,hes not his enemy either. They generally only ally when the world is in great danger but other then that their pretty neutral with each other. And while not friends with Eggman,hes not his enemy either. Delsait

Sonic and Shadow were cutthroat rivals when they first met, but now ,esp in 06, Shad seems to be a lil more friendly with Sonic. ChromeWulf ZX 17:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

True, and Shadow does listen to and help Sonic, Amy, Knuckles, and Tails. He may not be friends with them, but he's still kind to them. melody_the_hedgehog@yahoo.com

Editing Warground

Please stop reverting so many edits.

If you have a conflict with another editor, please do it here (in the talk page). Nick McMillen 20:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)Nick McMillen

For once, I'm siding with Delsait. From what I can tell, your edits are pretty much replacing words and adding some speculation, it's pointless. Also, I HIGHLY suggest that you don't use your name as a username. -Chao9999 09:43, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Removed Mobius: 50 years later image

I removed the image, it has no use. The article already has enough pictures, that one just makes it take a BIT more time to load, and satisfy some fans. We don't need it. -Chao9999 23:46, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

you bastard!

The hell are you complaining about? And sign posts. That part of the article was split off anyway. Gurko 12:41, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The rings of Shadow

I was wondering when Shadow took off his rings on his wrists and prepares his ultimate attack, what kind of an attack is it called and how many promises did Shadow keep from his first appearance to the Next Generation?

                                     ---James

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.244.4.168 (talk) 02:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

Well, about the promises, I guess that he kept Maria's and Amy's promise (so far) (see SA2). I'm not sure about any another promises (if there are any). There is no name (as of now) for the attack that Shad used on Mephiles after taking off his rings. It was just a burst og Shad's full power, then him (along with Rouge and Omega) blasting thru a bunch of Meph clones. ChromeWulf ZX 17:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Birthday and Age

Shadow's birthday is probably June 23, 1950. As for his age, why don't we put it like this: 15:56 or 15/56. Also, it may be possible that Shadow doesn't age in anything except the mind. That would mean he would still be called 15, even now.207.74.196.20 14:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

While I can accept his birthday being his debut day (even though SA2 was released June 18 first), why would he be born 1950? No games have stated what year the games are set in. I also wonder where "15" game from, since the Heroes manual and the official website just say "unknown". Gurko 18:26, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

It cant be, Shadow was created 30 years ago. I suggest we take off his age on the main page, because it isn't true.

His characteristics say 15, so that may be his actual age, even though he was created 50 years ago.207.74.196.20 16:16, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

They never say exactly fifty in the games they always say "over fifty years ago" which makes Shadow chronologically OVER FIFTY, thats all we know. Physically his databank places his body at fifteen, and states that his body will age no further than that, as "he is immortal". Now, that we have that taken care of, exactly what kind of immortal are we talking about. Immortal as in ageless, or immortal as in unkillable. Both are likely, and SEGA has not given many if any clues. SOMETIMES however they drop immortal and simply state that "age has no affect on him" or "he is ageless". I hope this helps.

The problem I have with this is 207.74.196.20 always adding "15" without a source, and adding that he was born in 1950. The games have never, EVER, been stated to be set in the current year, so subtracting 50 from 2000 doesn't work. It's probably somewhere in the future, logically. They didn't even make Mir until 1986, think the ARK could've been made in the fifties? Gurko 18:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Shadow was never given a biological age by any official source. The only basis we have for him being 15 is that Sonic is 15 too, and since Sonic and Shadow aren't even related, that shouldn't be a reason. It is logical that Gerald would age him to be biologically post-pubecescent, but no official source ever said so, and that still doesn't give him a specific biological age since people hit puberty at different ages. So leave his age as 'unknown'. 86.17.124.125 15:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I have edited the Discussion so that this is the only part of the page that talks about Shadow's age because it's the most recent. Some people's comments have been removed. Then again, it's not as if they weren't all repeating each other anyway... From now on, keep the Age and Birthday discussions here. 86.17.124.125 17:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

shadow is ageless.[[User:to5to|to5to]

Saying that is certainly better than us entering into the debate of just how many years have passed between Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic and the Secret Rings. Let's just keep saying that until we've got something else. Harley Quinn hyenaholic 21:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I just found out (from SEGA) what kind of imortal Shadow is. The info is in the Sonic next gen gamesite character profiles under Shadow the hedgehog. The profile clearly states that Shadow doesn't age, and that it is impossible to kill him! Go to the site and see, at www.sega.com/gamesite/sonicnextgen. Look at char profiles and it's right under Shadow's!!!

um sorry if this is off the topic but shadow's inmortal right soo then why did SEGA make the end of SA2B say that he died eather the other chariters are forgeting what inmortal means or they don't know they forget that when he fell he would only be hurt really bad and shadow's ageless 67.183.255.95 02:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Quotes Section

I think we should have a section with quotes for Shadow. I just think that if we create one, they must be verifable (not neccesarily needing a citation, someone just needs to be able to say (other than the person who posted the quote) yeah thats true, and anyone can add or delete quotes if they feel they aren't quotes which are important or that they missed one. I'll start immediately.

No, that's what Wikiquote is for. There's a Sonic section where you can add anything Shadow says. Gurko 19:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

This Edit War

You want a source, OK. It's in the forum section of Sonic Central. I can't remember which part, but it's in there. I do remember what it said, though. It said: "He was created as a 15-yaer old who would never age. Therefore, he will still be 15 when Sonic is 40." As for the 1950 thing, it came from here, when it said Maria's birthday was June 23, 1938. She died at 12. Last I checked 1938 + 12= 1950. And since Shadow is said to be alive for over 50 years, that means his birthyear is 1950. 207.74.196.20 14:34, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, lets set things straight here. I reverted your edits because:

1. It is Shadow the Hedgehog, not Shadow The Hedgehog, as capitalizing "the" is not capitalized in titles, unless it is the first word of the title. This is one of the basic rules of grammar.
2. There is no reason to get rid of the picture of Shadow from StH 2006.
3. You changed switch to swich. Why did you do that?
4. Who really cares if he has a license or not? This is Shadow we're talking about! Does he really need a license?
5. He is NOT a deity.

That is about two thirds of your edits, so I just reverted them. And yes I know I said I wasn't going to get involved in this again, but now I realize I have other editors who will probably back me up, so I will participate in the editing of Sonic character articles again. --LuigiManiac | Talk 16:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, then whoever added that to Maria is wrong as well. We don't know what year it is in the games, and so we don't know what year Shadow was created. I'll go check the Central forums for anything, but the <citation needed> is kept there until a link can be added. Gurko 17:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

If the "the" isn't capitalized, how come in Sonic 2006, Mephiles always called him "Shadow The Hedgehog"? 207.74.196.20 17:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I guess it could be "The" if that's true. It also means they're slipping in proper grammar, but who are we to judge? Fine, until further proof is found, go ahead with the "The". --LuigiManiac | Talk 17:40, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Shadow could have possibly been created in 1950! That would mean Space Colony ARK was developed before 1950. Have you seen the inside of that futuristic place! They never give an exact date in the games, they only say "over fifty years ago". So because we do not know the exact year in the Sonic universe, and we do not know exactly how long ago Shadow was created we do not know his chronological age. However, I do think it would be safe to say that Sonic's universe is at least a hundred years in the future. The basis for my claims. The technicality and futuristicness of GUN robots, Eggman's robot's, the cities like Grand Metropolis and such. Notably in the objectives for Team Rose on Grand Metropolis (an impressivly futuristic city) it says, "Stroll through the Modern city" not the high tech city not the futuristic city, the modern city, suggesting that is the norm. ARK being made over fifty years ago in Sonic's universe? How could that feat be accomplished in 1950? Shadow being created and or cloned from Black Doom in 1950? They didn't have cloning back then, they didn't have Neuclear Power plants for God's sake, but they can make the ultimate creature, and make him immortal. Quite a hole. Or... all these evens take place in the distant future of earth. I rest my case.

Heh heh. If the games ever take place in our universe/world, then they have to be set at least a few thousands of years into the future. If some ancient civilisation could build such a robot like Gizoid (ignoring how genial they are in making robots while their culture is very similiar to those of our ancestors o.o;;)... But I dare to say they don't (following the paradox mentioned before) so Shadow could be created around 1950's. 83.31.75.150 13:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Profile Data

Ok..The little in-universe box of the place for all official data...specifically Sonic Channel's data as that's one of the few valid hard citations. So, to spell it out, Sonic Channel says:

Real name : Shiyadou za Hejjihoggu

English name : Shadow the Hedgehog

Nickname : Shiyadou

Classification : Hedgehog

Gender : Male

Height : 100 cm

Weight : 35 kg

Favorite things : None

Loathed things: Mankind in general

Special skills: Chaos Control * Chaos Blast * Chaos Spear

Please note, that his nickname is Shadow, not "the ultimate life form". Also, it says his "classification" is Hedgehog. There's nothing in there about Black Doom or whatever. Also, he has THREE cited special skills and NOTHING ELSE. Lastly, he has no age.

This is official hard cited data, and as I personally rewrote that part to include Sonic Channel data ONLY, that it what will go there and nothing else. That means none of that age crap, or none of that brithplace shit because it's fancruft and original research. I think I'm going to make it clearer that that section is to be reserved for Sonic Channel data only.

Also, so you know, I'll be forcibly removing anything that's not in line with the above. kthnxbaiGrandMasterGalvatron 19:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I can see his profile, but why don't we keep his age as "none"? And I see his profile calls him "hedgehog", but we all know he's a Transgenic Hedgehog from Shadow the Hedgehog, and no one can convince me otherwise! 207.74.196.20 16:45, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, we do have his age as none in a way. Since he officially doesn't have one, then the field doesn't need to be there. Also, none of that "transgenic" mess has a hard citation. Even with Black Doom's DNA (how much of which we don't know), Sonic Team has still labeled him as a Hedgehog. Not "Transgenic Hedgehog", but just Hedgehog. As a place documenting official facts, we should follow the same. Also, none of that birthplace and birthday stuff is mentioned either...it's all fancruft. As far as we know, the characters do not have in universe "birthdays" but real life creation dates and thus "anniversaries". Those should be mentioned in the article itself, not in the in universe box which is for official hard cited data only.GrandMasterGalvatron 16:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely, which is why I removed him from the category of, get this... "fictional extraterrestrials". How much B-S is that? Shadow obviously isn't a direct clone of Blk Doom (he doesn't even resemble him), and it's never told how much of Black Dooms blood/DNA went to Shadow, but most likely Gerald only used enough to make Shadow immortal. Anyhow, Shadow's not an alien, android, wanabe, or fake, SEGA themselves have revealed all of that, and if you can't accept it, either you're a die hard Sonic t Hedgehog fanboy, or you haven't looked for more recent data in too long, or you need help. That's as far as I'm going. In response to GrandMasterGalvatrons previous post, I say, I agree, but I disagree. Characters do have real in universe birthplaces, even if no days, since obviously Shadow was born/created aboard ARK, since Maria asks Shadow "What do you think Earth is like" in a cutsecene of a game and he replys something like "I don't know, but I want to see it someday." Implying that he's and she's never been there (and ARK has existed for 12 years, since that's how old Maria was, ro possibly 15 since that's the assumed phisical age of Shadow. Radman 19:02, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Trivia

I removed the comment about Shadow's jump sound effect, because really, who cares? It doesn't give you any information on Shadow or his skills, it's not important, it's not interesting, it may not even be a permanent feature, it doesn't cite a source, it's just something somebody felt like tacking in. If MORE than ONE person thinks it should go back, feel free. 86.17.124.125 15:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

..well..I thought it was interesting when I heard it XD. Then again, I like little odd things like that (like I notice how Metal In DX uses Egg Robo's engine sounds from SA2). But you're right..it doesn't belong here. Though I wish there was a place that would archive all these neat tidbits XDGrandMasterGalvatron 16:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Too much in games

Do we really need to give a detailed recap of each game Shadow was in (as this will get cluttered as he appears more), why not just a quick summery of important events from the games that are nessacary to know if just being introduced to the Sonic francise in two or three paragraphs. For example: paragraph 1: Shadow's intro-his memory tampering and other important stuff pertaining to Shadow from SA2 paragraph 2: His return in Heroes and over coming amnesia in ShTH, with quick reference at end to how he is now (working with Rouge and GUN to "bring hope to humanity" with the possiblity of being betrayed by the very same ppl he looks to help mentioned in STH06--this parenthases part could be paragraph 3 if 2 gets too long)

Yes. I agree, we should. --Coconutfred73 01:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I also agree, but we should be careful about what we take out and leave in. Links to the page for the game itself should be included. I have just edited out large chunks, especially the parts that were just about the game. However, it's still quite heavy on the description in other places. We should also do the same for the other Sonic characters. 86.17.124.125 16:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

TO DETERMINE IF SOMETHING IN A GAME IS IMPORTANT ENOUGH FOR INCLUSION: think about the importance of the thing as pertaining to the future of the character and whether people who are just being introduced to this character need to know it. For an example I'll say the character dies: if the character died and stayed dead it would be an important event to know about the character as the character is no longer alive; if the character died and was revived as a cyborg, and would from then on be "(Character Name) the Cyborg," it would be an important event to know about the character; however if the character died and is brought back to life as if it never happened (like Spider-Man's Aunt May has so many times) it nullifies the importance to nothing and is not worth including as it may never even come up again. Either direct readers to a full recap with spoiler warnings which should be included in the individual game's section or encourage them to play the game. Thats more $$ in Sega's pocket - lol. But I think the most important things to know about Shadow are mostly background facts. For example, the details of the Eclipse Cannon part of the destroy the world plot from SA2 is unimportant, the fact that Gerald altered Shadow's memory to bring the plot to fruition and Shadow later rejected this is. Things pertaining to Shadow's past before the games are likely important, such as Gerald's deal with Black Doom to use Doom's DNA if Shadow collects the Emeralds for Doom cause it establishes both as Shadow's fathers, but the Artifial Chaos rampage stuff is not since it has no impact on the future.Cigraphix 21:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Shadow's just a rival

Again folks, Shadow is not, I repeat NOT Sonic's arch-rival. That role belongs to Dr. Eggman and Dr. Eggman alone. Everyone else is just a regular rival. ThanksGrandMasterGalvatron 15:54, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Personally I'd say that Eggman was Sonic's enemy, not his rival. It's not like Sonic is a scientist or something. But yes, Sonic has lots of rivals, and it's pretty hard to say which one would be classified as his Arch-Rival. Shadow just happens to be the best-looking one. ;) Harley Quinn hyenaholic 16:00, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Doctor "Eggman" Robotnik is officially Sonic's Arch Enemy, not his "rival". Rivals compete to be the best, or amcomplish basically the same thing, or aren't extremely hostile and yet fight. Do you think Shadow would ever kill Sonic unless the world depended on it? (correct answer: no) Do you think Shadow would beat the crud outta Sonic for one pidly emerald? (correct answer, yes) Do you think Eggman would kill Sonic if he got the chance? (correct answer: most likely) Do you think he would even turn down a chance to fight Sonic? (correct answer: not really) However, Shadow is not currently canonically an enemy, or a friend, so he is a rival, like Silver. Because Shadow is the most frequent and current cannon rival (appearing in many games, many more times than ANY other "rival" (not enemy)) making him Sonic's "Arch Rival". So who is the real Arch Enemy, and who is the real Arch Rival? My answer is that the truth should be obvious.

Either way, Shadow's no arch rival of Sonic. He really doesn't give a damn about him save for the times they meet. By those definitions, Jet is more of an arch rival than Shadow.GrandMasterGalvatron 16:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I see your reasoning but I'm afraid I disagree. Sonic and Shadow are almost always competeing to complete symilar or identical goals better or faster than the other. Shadow may not be Sonic's "arch rival" but Eggman is Sonics Arch Enemy, and Shadow is Sonic's rival. Jet is not a current charecter, so he is not currently Sonic's rival, Shadow is WAY more of a rival than JET!

Personally, I think Shadow is an arch rival. Him and Sonic have fought/raced in Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Battle, and Sonic Rivals. Out of all Sonic's "rivals", him and Jet have only raced a couple of times, Metal Sonic is more of an enemy, Knuckles is more of a friend, and him and Silver have fought/ raced only what? 3 times at best.65.34.13.144 00:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)Megawhatt

Angel the Cat deja vu

I noticed that someone reverted an edit about an "Electra the hedgehog" on this page. A short time ago, I reverted a similar edit about "Flames the hedgehog" on Silver's page. This reminds me of that "Angel the Cat" vandal, and I do not want to go through this again... let's find this vandal and warn him! --Luigifan 11:23, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, people add their fancharacters every once in a while. Nothing to worry about unless they keep doing it, really. No need to warn anyone. Gurko 11:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, the "Flames the Hedgehog" vandal just tried to re-insert it, this time mentioning Electra as Flames's sister. It was reverted again by another user, but it proves that these vandal attacks are related somehow... and that the vandal in question is rather persistent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Luigifan (talk • contribs) 22:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

I believe that something similar happened with Angel... I think I'm going to speak with UnDeRsCoRe now. --Luigifan 11:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

ALRIGHT PEOPLE THIS IS AN OFFICIAL WARNING. DO NOT, I REPEAT, NOT: POST, MENTION,DISCUSS, SUGGEST, REFER TO, OR EVEN MENTION, YOUR STUPID FANFICTION CHARACTERS WHILE IN WIKIPEDIA, OR ANY OTHER WIKI SITE. SAVE IT FOR FANFIC.COM, OKAY!!!

No, it's not "official". Besides, they won't stop just because you say so here. Just revert what you see, and don't get angry for no reason. Gurko 09:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I have actually invented a fancharacter who is Tails's romantic interest, but I won't mention any other details, because Wikipedia is not the place for that sort of thing. --Luigifan 01:52, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I know, I have invented a Sonic charecter to be Shadow's girlfriend, but I don't put her on his page on Wikipedia, becuase this is the place for REAL stuff that exists in REAL PUBLISHED, WELL KNOWN, INTERESTING, CANON stuff, not stuff which, has no REAL influence on the current state of the book, charecter, etc, in this case Shadow!

Picture

http://img.search.com/thumb/2/27/ME0000572321_2.jpg/280px-ME0000572321_2.jpg I would put it on, but I don't know how to do so. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.218.92.64 (talk) 08:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC).

No. The one we have now is good enough.

i think this one is better. the current one doesn't really show much about who shadow is and just looks kind of bland.

The current one is more recent. Gurko 09:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Huge "major interactions" section

I think we should cut it down a bit. Gurko 09:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Totally agree, the only characters that have important interactions with Shadow are Gerald, Maria, Doom, Rouge, Omega, Sonic and maybe the GUN Commander, and a lot of the information is unneeded. The same still applies to the games section as stuff like his multiplayer cameo in Secret Rings is unnecessary and summaries of his actions in every game are too much (and should be covered in the game page). Cigraphix 14:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I would do something myself, but I'm not sure where to start. The major problem with the interactions is that it seems to list everything the various characters ever did together. Gurko 07:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and the abilities section is also gigantic. Gurko 07:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The interactions section could be (not should be) sized down, but if you remove anyone, make it the Chaotix and Amy, and Mephiles, and such. Also, the abilities section is big for a reason, he has alot of abilities. Sonic has only very similar abilities (abilities which are practically the same as his other ones) and his is big too. Besides, nothing is really restated.Leave the abilites section alone.

Is Silver Shadow's Son?!?

Bold text Is Silver Shadow's Son?? It is possible ya know? Here's How!:

1. Silver has that "Destroy anything in my way" Shadow trait 2. Silver has black lines on the side of his eyes 3. Silver has a lot of physical strength 4. He natuarly has Chaos Control (not as natural as Shadow's though, probally 'cause of his mom) 5. Silver is unsecure at times, like shadow. it can be true!!! --Shadow'ssonsilver 04:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)Shadow'ssonsilver

It could be if silver wasn't from the future. He's silver or white or whatever.Lokon40 05:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Uh, this isn't a message board guys. --Zikar 16:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Not that it pertains to the article in any way, but actually it's unlikely Shadow is able to have offspring due to his mixed genetic structure because of the DNA of Black Doom. It is far more likely and plausible that Silver is a descendent (not son) of Sonic, as Sonic seems to have the inherit ability to use Chaos Control when he has at least one emerald. Also Sonic has a "girlfriend" in Amy, (I can foresee them getting married one day) while Shadow arguably doesn't. Radman 18:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Other Chaos Abilities?

I heard that in Shadow the hedgehog (game), SEGA hid some extra Chaos Abilities that you have to earn or find. Proven examples Chaos Spear (get Super Shadow by defeating all ten normal endings. Only usable while playing as Supe Shad.), and Chaos Blast and Control (simply fill the bar). However, I've heard there are a couple more, and I wanted to know from somebody if they're true. "Chaos Revenge" fill your hero bar and dark bar almost simultaneously, and use the "Chaos button". The move will be called Chaos Revenge by Shadow, and he will warp like chaos control and blast like blast simultauneously. Could someone who has an AR or is really good check that one? And "Chaos Nightmare" replaces the third combe punch ith the attack button when unarmed. Found in a level, similar to the level up items of SONIC ADVENTURE. Does more damage than a standard attack. I thought i heard that it was on Cosmic Fall, or GUN Fortress, but I'm not sure. (THIS IS ALL STUFF I'VE HEARD, SO DON'T QUOTE ME) Also, I heard that you can get a "Chaos Homing Attack" which doubles the damage done by the homing attack, and is found similar to the above attack. No doubt these are bull crap, but could somebody check if they have the game, and especially if they have an AR? Thanx. Please post your research findings for each item and which levels it is not on below this post.

I can confidently say that Chaos Homing Attack, and Chaos Nightmare are nowhere to be seen in Westopolis.

Nope. If this was true you could quite simply find it at GameFAQs or whatever. The game's been out for years, and somebody would've seen them by now. Simply fake. Gurko 08:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)