Talk:Roi Klein

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"terrorists"[edit]

Also, is there no protocol against calling people "terrorists" willy-nilly? If Wikipedia is going to accept the word "terrorist" as an alternative denomination for Palestinians, then I expect every reference to anyone associated with the IDF to use similar language.

O —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.56.7.148 (talk) 23:21, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

point of article[edit]

What exactly is the point of this article? I am sure that are thousands of cases of similar acts of courage, but if we begin listing every such, we are going to dilute the essence of Wikipedia into an unrealiable pot-pourri of mish-mashed information.

Rui

Name[edit]

A tzadik.....tzadik zichrono l'bracha....

The name is really incorrect....it is Roi Klein....I'm gonna change it....If anyone has any objections, then change it back....but this is how it is really spelled and how it was reported in various news reports.... Now time for proof, so you guys won't tear me apart... A. The last name is Klein....it is a popular name, even in the US....KLEIN....not Kline.... B. Roy....not an Israeli name....Roi....Ro-ee... http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=409254 http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=6470 http://www.zchor.org/israel/war.htm#roi AND NOW FOR THE MAJOR ONE.....the IDF's official website....Roi Klein.... http://www1.idf.il/dover/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&docid=55114.EN So I'm changing it....I believe I have made my point

Oh, and I have no clue how to change the header so it will not come up as roy kline....it makes it harder to find like that....so if someone could change it to Roi Klein, it would be greatly appreciated..... 74.225.193.110 20:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)Nate[reply]

Happy? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Comperr (talk • contribs) 02:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Term[edit]

Brewcrewer, you removed "soldiers" based on your argument that "Hezbollah is not the army of a county and does not have "soldiers"". The free dictionary: [1] says: "An active, loyal, or militant follower of an organization.", this means that they don't have to be a soldier in an army of a country to be soldiers, so to call fighting Hezbollah members soldiers is absolutely accurate. Also brew, you also added that the Palestinian were "militants" how do you know that? How do you know that they weren't civilians? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:13, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hezbollah members are generally not considered soldiers by reliable sources.
He would have not received a medal for killing civilians. Israel does not give medals for killing civilians.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 00:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence doesn't say that he killed the Palestinians. He might have received the medal for something that happened in the ambush unaffiliated to the deaths of the Palestinians, and the Palestinian that got killed we don't know who killed them, they might have been civilian bystanders, we don't know this. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:53, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's one or the other, but given the context it is in all likelihood militants as opposed to civilians, and the article should not be changed to reflect the latter.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:21, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"The only witness to this incident however was Sgt. Shimon Adega, who was killed moments later by a direct hit"[edit]

[2] This was added, among other additions, by User:Jokkmokks-Goran. Can you please point to the exact line in the source from which you based this addition? Thanks.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 18:42, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

שמעון אדגה, היה היחיד, כנראה, שהבחין ברועי קליין מזנק לעבר רימון יד שהתגלגל לעברם

שמעון אדגה, האתיופי החייכן ספג פגיעה ישירה ונהרג.

"Shimon Adega was apparently the only one who saw Roy Klein jumping on a hand grenade rolling toward them ... Shimon Adega, the smiling Ethiopian, suffered a direct hit and was killed."
Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 19:20, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You are misconstruing the source in a blatant troubling manner. The source says that Adega was the one who saw him actually jumping on the grenade. The fact that he died from the grenade was apparent from the fact that he was dead with a grenade under him, his orders, and everything else that occurred during the incident. The source does not say that he was the only witness to the incident as you claim. In addition, nowhere in the source does it say that Adega was killed moments later. This is your original research or it was something you simply decided to make up. Please revert and do not continue to edit in this manner. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:30, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In fact source also states, אביתר תורג'מן, לוחם בכוח החוד, ראה לפתע את הסמג"ד מפיל עצמו קדימה וצועק: "שמע ישראל". You are misrepresenting the source, the section that you quotes relates to seeing the actual grenade rolling as opposed to other soldiers who saw him lunge forward and shout, "Shema Yisroel". Besides that, the source is excerpts from a sensationalist book, The ground shook - 33 days, Lebanon 2006", by journalist Ilan Kfir, and is not RS.
Best Wishes AnkhMorpork (talk) 19:50, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The only controversial point is whether Klein on purpose sacrificed his life to save his comrades. On this we only have one witness who died shortly afterwards. So its hearsay and should be treated as such and not as an uncontroversial fact. But he survived the first grenade, radioed the news about his death, transferred the radio codes to his deputy and recited the shema (and may even have shouted "long live Israel"). He died sometime later, apparently by a second grenade.
You removed EVERYTHING I had added, including reliable sources. If you believe that Ilan Kfir is not RS please show evidence.
Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 20:47, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a controversial point, the Telegraph clearly states, "It was there that Maj Klein, shouting 'Long Live Israel' threw himself onto a grenade to save his fellow soldiers." Arutz Sheva, " Soldiers who survived the battle - eight did not - reported that Ro'i yelled out "Shma Yisrael…" and jumped upon the grenade, absorbing the brunt of the explosion and saving the men around him. A stunned silence overtook the men".

Your edits have deleted sourced content from the Telegraph, e.g. removed Hezbollah references, and have replaced them with content from a non RS. The source you quote from is a narrative book with sentences such as שמעון אדגה, לוחם ממוצא אתיופי, קל רגליים ואהוב, מיהר לעזור לסמג"ד למשוך את האלונקה and האתיופי החייכן. It is not a scholarly work.
Best Wishes AnkhMorpork (talk) 21:16, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Klein's date of Birth and Death[edit]

User:Brewcrewer reverted my correction of Klein's date of birth and death. Klein was not born either July 27, 1975 or March 6, 1975 (as claimed Brewcrewer) but on July 10, 1975. See Hebrew sister article or this government source: http://www.izkor.gov.il/HalalKorot.aspx?id=517372 He was killed July 26 2006 and not February 6, 2006 and was thus not aged 30 but 31 and did not die the day before his 31st birthday. Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 19:06, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, I don't "claim" anything, I only write what was reported by reliable source. To that end, our encyclopedia prefers what news sources like the Jerusalem Post say (like the one you removed) over the publications of non-news organizations like the Israeli government. When you get a chance, please respond to my query in the thread above, which you must have overlooked. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:21, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your dates are so obviously wrong and also inconsistent (was he born July 27 or March 6?) Klein died in the second Lebanon war and thus your date of his death (February 6, 2006) is absurd. Klein was also deputy commander of Battalion 51 and not the Egoz unit as you claim.
Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 19:32, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:Verifiability. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:40, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This memorial site confirms that Klein was born July 10, 1975, was killed July 26, 2006 (thus 31 years old) and was deputy commander of Battalion 51, having left the Egoz unit earlier in 2006.
http://www.roiklein.co.il/roi.aspx?lang=eng
But Klein may not have been 31 years old according to the Hebrew calendar.
Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 20:32, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I was right:
July 10, 1975 = 2nd of Av, 5735
July 26, 2006 = 1st of Av, 5766
So Klein died on the day before his birthday according to the Hebrew calendar. But according to the western calender he was 31 years old. Brewcrewer's claim that he was born on July 27, 1975 is just original research and incorrect research at that. You should remove your faulty claims. Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 21:36, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism[edit]

User:AnkhMorpork, you have made two complete reverts of all my additions (including reliable sources) within 1,5 hours and thereby contravening WP:1RR.

I do not agree with your evaluation of Ilan Kfir’s book. Kfir is a long-time Israeli journalist (with mainstream newspapers Maariv and Yedioth) and author of several books. The excerpt of his book that I referred to was published by Maariv. You also removed a reference to Lubotzky’s book about the Lebanon war. You are trying to hid the fact that some of the details of Klein's heroic death may not be based on facts.

You also removed a Jerusalem Post reference to the fact that Klein lived in an illegal outpost, partly built on private Palestinian lands (according to source).

You also removed my [citation needed] tags related to the (surreal) discussion of when Klein was born and died and which unit he belonged to, which I claim is both wrong and unsourced in the present version of the article.

Latest revision as of 21:17, 21 March 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Roi_Klein&diff=483229734&oldid=483223780

Revision as of 19:53, 21 March 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Roi_Klein&diff=483211489&oldid=483209617

Please return my additions or I will be forced to take other steps.

Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 22:25, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Most, if not all, of your edits were riddled with POV-pushing and original research so I support the reversion. In the future, it would be best if you achieve a consensus piecemeal for any contentious edits prior to making these mass changes to the article.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:29, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have reverted User:AnkhMorpork changes.
First I made some – very innocent and well documented – corrections of the dates of Klein’s birth and death as well as which IDF unit he belonged to at the time of death. User:Brewcrewer reverted all my changes. I explained in some detail his error but he persisted. All my subsequent explanations fell on deaf ears. I didn’t think that this was a very important point, so I relented but added [citation needed] on his totally undocumented and unsourced - and incorrect - claims. The present version of Wikipedia is thus the only “source” I’m aware of that replicate these obvious typos.
Then User:AnkhMorpork comes along and twice within 1,5 hour removes every single word I had added to the article, including important well-sourced material. User:Brewcrewer readily supported these obvious violations of WP:1RR.
Please note that I don’t mind if AnkhMorpork reintroduces his Telegraph source. I just didn’t see what it added that wasn’t already covered.
Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 22:31, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I reiterate Brewcrewer's comments: please achieve a consensus piecemeal for any contentious edits prior to making these mass changes to the article. Please read WP:BRD. I await for you to engage in a collaborative discussion about your proposed amendments as opposed to insisting on mass reversions.
Best Wishes AnkhMorpork (talk) 22:46, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Jokkmokks-Goran, please read WP:VANDALISM: "Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism. Edit warring over content is not vandalism. Careful consideration may be required to differentiate between edits that are beneficial, detrimental but well-intentioned, and vandalizing. Mislabelling good-faith edits as vandalism can be considered harmful." The edits you are labeling as vandalism are not vandalism, and if you continue to label them as such, you may find yourself blocked. Jeff Song (talk) 00:22, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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