Talk:Richard D'Oyly Carte

Americanisation of pronunciation

I have removed a good faith insertion of a rhotic R into the IPA version of Carte's name. If anyone wants to add an extra American pronunciation, so be it, but it would be a dereliction not to have as the primary pronunciation how it is pronounced in English usage, and how we know from recordings how his son Rupert D'Oyly Carte and granddaughter Dame Bridget D'Oyly Carte pronounced it. Tim riley talk 18:31, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi, regarding English IPA on Wikipedia, we use a diaphonemic system that broadly represents both RP and GenAm as well as it can. Thus, on the first link you'll see that /ɑːr/ is how START is transcribed, even though most Brits certainly say /ɑː/ for START. You can see this same IPA convention employed, for instance, on British placename articles like Cardiff, Carlisle, Hertford, Derby, etc. etc. Wolfdog (talk) 18:44, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I wonder if other editors will agree that we should show as the primary pronunciation a pronunciation that the Cartes did not use rather than the one they did. Comments welcome. Tim riley talk 18:50, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

This is an English name that was pronounced the same (non-rhotically) by all members of the Carte family, all of whom were English, and should always be pronounced without the rhotic "r". I (an American) disagree strongly with Wolfdog, and I would also disagree with adding any second pronunciation. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:06, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree that including a rhotic "r" is undesirable in this case.Bkesselman (talk) 20:00, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

If we know how they pronounced it (which we do from recordings) and that use is still the commonly used version, then I think it best we stick with it. - SchroCat (talk) 19:26, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

All your arguments makes sense and I hear you, but it's just simply not what we do on Wikipedia. What we could do is add a "UK" label to the IPA formatting. That shows a nation-specific pronunciation. I'm happy to do that. (But notice, for instance, if you wanted to transcribe the French-originating surname Caire for a Briton, there's no option in our WP convention for /kɛə/; you literally have to use the r-including /kɛər/. So it's not really about our personal feelings on the matter; it's about an established WP convention.) Wolfdog (talk) 20:39, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

But in this case it is the British pronunciation which is standard. If one wished to have an alternative pronunciation it would need a US label, but this seems unnecessary.Bkesselman (talk) 20:49, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

It’s not about “personal feelings” (with or without italics), it’s about how the family pronounced their name, and how it is still pronounced correctly. SchroCat (talk) 21:19, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

You both seem not to be hearing me. The way a family name, given name, etc. is pronounced is still affected by one's accent. Let's take some other British names here on WP. The Chiwetel Ejiofor article says /ˈɛdʒioʊfɔːr/, which on WP means say [-foəɹ] for GenAm and [-fɔː] for RP. Piers Morgan says /pɪərz/, which on WP means [piəɹz] for GenAm, [pɪəz] for RP. This is the same situation. A convention has already been established. Again, just see Help:IPA/English. Wolfdog (talk) 21:48, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps, Wolfdog, you'd point us in the direction of the Wikipedia policy that says that IPA transcriptions are all to be based on American pronunciation? If there is one, we can reconsider how to explain to our readers how the names are actually pronounced by those who own them. Tim riley talk 21:52, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Tim Riley is correct. Having checked the IPA help page linked above, my interpretation is that RP should be used, and it is then up to the speaker to decide whether they interpret the phonetics to reflect their own pronunciation. In this case, an American speaker may choose to use a rhotic "r" or not, but the IPA should most definitely not include one.Bkesselman (talk) 21:58, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Tim, I have in no way recommended American pronunciations as the basis for anything -- only Wikipedia pronunciations using the template IPAc-en. And I've given you the policy already: Help:IPA/English. So long as we're using IPAc-en, then This key represents diaphonemes, abstractions of speech sounds that accommodate General American, Received Pronunciation (RP) and to a large extent [other varieties of English]. Also, see the very first two sentences of this MoS policy for IPAc-en, and notice that the example given in fact includes the very /r/ we've been discussing (in a particularly British placename too, Oxford): It is often possible to transcribe a word in a generic way that is not specific to any one accent, e.g. Oxford as /ˈɒksfərd/. Speakers of non-rhotic accents, as in much of Australia, England, New Zealand, and Wales, will pronounce the second syllable [fəd]. Bkesselman, I'm not sure where you're getting your interpretations; please provide quotes or policy, as I've done. Wolfdog (talk) 22:16, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Try as I may I can't interpret the IPA help page as Wolfdog does. It seems to me that he is on a one-person mission here, and unless he can rapidly assemble a consensus here in favour of his contentions I suggest we regard the matter as closed. Tim riley talk 22:26, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Given it’s a help page, rather than a policy or guideline, I think I would agree. - SchroCat (talk) 22:40, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Wolfdog, here is a quote from the page you link to.

"Let's pick some grapes for Betty should be transcribed ... regardless of the variety of English and everyone should interpret that transcription according to their own dialect." (I'm not currently able to copy the IPA, hence the ellipsis.)Bkesselman (talk) 22:42, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Right, haha, that sentence bolsters my point! Look at the example of how the broad IPA system transcribes the word "for" (in "grapes for Betty"): it gives the example transcribed as /fər/ (not /fə/). Rhotic transcription is maintained in the IPA system. (Tim, that alone doesn't make the system "American" or an "Americanisation". Wikipedia conventions also maintain the phoneme /ɒ/, which one could just as well argue makes it more British!) Wolfdog (talk) 23:00, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

You make a valid point and I understand where you are coming from. Bkesselman (talk) 08:24, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Many thanks to Wolfdog for taking the arguments above on board and making the appropriate change. Tim riley talk 20:57, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Wolfdog is definitely not "on a one-person mission". Help:IPA/English may not have the status of official WP policy, but it is widespread practice across all Wikipedia articles to use the diaphonemic transcription outlined there. Speakers of non-rhotic accents are not the only ones who are allowed to utter the name D'Oyly Carte, and when rhotic speakers pronounce it, they pronounce the r. This is not an American vs. British issue, since not all rhotic speakers are American, or even North American. When English speakers from Scotland, Ireland, or Devon pronounce this name, they pronounce it with an r. The tooltips of {{IPAc-en}} make it clear that /ɑːr/ in the transcription does not mean that the /r/ is necessarily pronounced; it means that the sequence is to pronounced just like the ar in start, however that word is pronounced in any given speaker's accent. If we transcribe it /kɑːt/ then we are saying that everyone, rhotic and nonrhotic alike, pronounces it "kaht", which is untrue. Rather, everyone pronounces it as a homophone of cart, however they pronounce that. And that's what /kɑːrt/ says. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:33, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Incidentally, the fact that the most famous members of the family happened to be non-rhotic speakers is irrelevant. My name contains the GOAT vowel; when an RP speaker uses my name I expect them to pronounce it [əʊ] as is normal in RP, and when a Scottish English speaker uses my name I expect them to pronounce it [oː] as in normal in Scottish English, even though neither of those is my own pronunciation. Just because it's my name, that doesn't give me the authority to override other people's native accents. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:39, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

And although Help:IPA/English is not, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation is a guideline. It is Kafkaesque to see Wolfdog and you being chided for simply applying WP:CONLEVEL. Nardog (talk) 09:28, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Again, these are valid points. I suppose that (to explain any controversy), many might wish to protect their own choice or tradition of pronunciation. I'm actually not sure that it was necessary to provide any pronunciation guide to this particular name, but I have no personal objection to either version (though one is more natural to me than the other). Bkesselman (talk) 14:51, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Good heavens! Nobody is telling anybody how they must pronounce a name. English, French and American speakers of my acquaintance all pronounce the name Aristotle so differently as to make it seem almost like three different names. (How he himself pronounced it I shouldn't dare speculate.) What the pronunciation guide here is for is not to tell people 'You must pronounce the name this way', but, merely factually, 'This is how the people concerned pronounced it.' Tim riley talk 15:09, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps 2 pronunciations could be included (labelled suitably), as happens with other words on Wikipedia. Bkesselman (talk) 15:13, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

As I indicated above, User:Bkesselman, I strongly believe that including two stupid pronunciation guides would be the worst outcome here. We have a consensus above, and I don't understand why Mahagaja should be allowed to edit war to change it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:47, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

It seems that Bkesselman's proposal for two pronunciations is the only way forward (although it would be redundant). Ssilvers, how in the world would providing two pronunciations be the worst outcome? It provides both the diaphonemic transcription we normally use on lead sentences as well as a transcription that is more particularly British/specific to the family's own accent. This is literally providing every possibility that is desired by editors here (which, we are lucky only amounts to TWO possibilities: very doable!). Here's how it would look: /ˈdɔɪli kɑːrt/, UK: /kɑːt/. Wolfdog (talk) 16:16, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Because this is an encyclopedia, not a list of pronunciations. Conciseness is far more important in an encyclopedia article. If the above discussion proves anything, it is that the pronunciation guide is not very helpful or useful at all. However, I am not in favor of deleting it, since that would just lead to ongoing and repeated arguments about it. So let's leave it alone and move on to more important things. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:52, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

I suppose ideally we could do as the OED does and give both English and American pronunciations (English /kɑːt/, US /kɑrt/) but as WP doesn't do that I concur with Ssilvers that we should stick with the status quo. Tim riley talk 18:46, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Giving both English and American pronunciations is exactly what the WP diaphonemic system does! 😂 Wolfdog (talk) 18:33, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Except that it doesn't: how does your /ˈdɔɪli kɑːrt/; reflect the English pronunciation? Tim riley talk 18:54, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it absolutely does. Its whole purpose is to incorporate both a standard American and a standard British accent into one system, for the umpteenth time. Again: See the very first two sentences of this MoS policy: It is often possible to transcribe a word in a generic way that is not specific to any one accent, e.g. Oxford as /ˈɒksfərd/. Speakers of non-rhotic accents, as in much of Australia, England, New Zealand, and Wales, will pronounce the second syllable [fəd], while rhotic accents will pronounce it [fəɹd]. Wolfdog (talk) 13:03, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Alas, readers familiar with the real-world IPA cannot be expected to guess that Wikipedia has its own esoteric phonetic system in which the pronunciation symbols mean "this unless you'd rather pronounce it that". Why not follow the OED and give the accepted pronunciations in English and American? We are supposed to help our readers rather than confusing them. Tim riley talk 14:13, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps it would ease controversy to delete the guide completely. I think this may otherwise turn out to be a never-ending cycle. I notice that there is none for other family members. (Hopefully no one will now add one to those now.) Bkesselman (talk) 15:58, 28 February 2023 (UTC)