Talk:Qin Shi Huang/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

For Ossetic

Please, add the article in Ossetic language (Цинь Шихуанди). — Лазар 6 April 2012, 21:59 (CET) —Preceding undated comment added 20:00, 6 April 2012 (UTC).

WP:MOS-ZH

I know we're used to the clutter at the top of Chinese pages, but it's not actually helpful to force most readers to wade through it to get to the important stuff. Per the Chinese Manual of Style, once we have an infobox with all of those things, we should take it out of the lead section. Kindly observe or work to change the policy at the Manual of Style. — LlywelynII 01:57, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

So what was his birth year?

The article contradicts itself. On the top of the page and in the infobox, it says 260 BC. But in the Birth section, it says 259 BC, and the article is in the category "259 BC births". Aquila89 (talk) 15:53, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Featured article?

Hi, I'd like to work on this article and make it a Featured Article. It means that I'll have to make many changes around. Is that ok? Is someone against? --Lecen (talk) 13:10, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like a great idea. I'll do the review for you once you've finished and if you have any questions about Chinese language issues feel free to ask. Good luck!  Philg88 ♦talk 13:55, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, Philg88. I really appreciate your help! --Lecen (talk) 14:32, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to warn that I'll follow a similar structure as the one found in Pedro II of Brazil. However, this article on Qin Shi Huang will certainly not be as long. --Lecen (talk) 16:49, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome. As long as we don't lose any of the current content I don't think the structure will be an issue. Cheers,  Philg88 ♦talk 19:01, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
What do you mean by not "lose any of the current content"? Do you mean that sections like "Cultural references" should be kept? --Lecen (talk) 22:49, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
Hmm ... perhaps I should have said "appropriate" content. My view on the "Culture references" section is that it's largely trivia, which doesn't belong in the encyclopedia.  Philg88 ♦talk 05:23, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
Ok, I got it. It may take awhile to get it done. I have less and less free time. --Lecen (talk) 13:06, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
 Philg88 , do you know if the Kingdom of Qin continued to exist after the unification of China? Or it ceased to exist as a kingdom? Historians are not clear about this. Did Qin Shi Huang keep his title of king, or it vanished as he became emperor? --Lecen (talk) 16:04, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

@Lecen: The kingdom of Qin, along with the other remaining Warring States, was subsumed into the new "empire" of which Qin Shi Huang became emperor, thereby nullifying the title of king.  Philg88 ♦talk 17:21, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Reference in Video Games

In World of Warcraft, judging from what he did, the reference is Emperor Lei Shen. (He united the empire, unified the language, defined the laws, established a single currency and standardized weight and measurements. He outlawed books and killed scholars to ensure the stability of his reign. He also commissioned the Great Wall of China to protect his empire against intrusions.) It is definitely not Qin-Xi. No Chinese people would call Qin Shi Huang "Qin-Shi".
It should be changed like this: "World of Warcraft's heavily Chinese culture inspired expansion Mists of Pandaria. In the game there is a character called Emperor Lei Shen. He united the empire, unified the language, defined the laws, established a single currency and standardized weight and measurements. He also commissioned the Serpent's Spine (the in-game reference of the Great Wall of China) to protect his empire against intrusions."202.141.176.10 (talk) 02:17, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 June 2015

World of Warcraft's heavily Chinese culture inspired expansion Mists of Pandaria, the raid boss "Qin-Xi- Emperor's Closed Fist" in the Mogu-Shan Vaults, is a clear reference to Qin-Shi.


This is a notable mistake. Chinese people never call Qin Shi Huang "Qin-Shi". See Chinese name.

This is a reference to another character in World of Warcraft. And it should be like this:


In World of Warcraft's heavily Chinese culture inspired expansion Mists of Pandaria, one of the main antagonist, Emperor Lei Shen, is a clear reference to Emperor Qin Shi Huang. Lei Shen united the empire, unified the language, established a single currency and standardized weight and measures. He also commissioned a great wall to protect his empire against intrusions.

Deepseer wiki (talk) 04:25, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  19:25, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Clarification on his name

秦始皇 does not literally mean 'First Emperor of Qin'

It is short for 秦開始皇帝 which is a very literal title: "Qin Starts the Emperors" So the subtlety is not that he is "First" Qin Emperor, but rather that he is the one who began China's entire Dynastic system. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.125.196.91 (talk) 05:08, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

To further clarify on my above comments, 始 does not mean 'first', it is the verb 'to begin/to start' just like 秦 does not literally mean 'of Qin' it just means the noun '秦' state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.125.196.91 (talk) 08:26, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Article needs tidying up

At the moment the article has too many inconsistencies and poorly worded sentences. For example the lead sentence is not even a proper sentence, and contains facts that contradict what's written elsewhere. Was he born in 260 BC or 259 BC (as stated in Birth and childhood section), and is it 18 February (Birth section) or 7 February (infobox)? Did he died on September 10, 210 BC or 10 August 210 BC (according to the infobox)? I can try to fix a few things but we probably need to decide which date to use and determine which source is more reliable.

I've tried adjusting some sentences, and removed some dubious claims - for example, one editor tried to make unsourced claim about the Japanese Hata Clan being Qin Shi Huang's true descendants, and that all other Chinese dynasties are illegitimate (implying that the Japanese have a more legitimate claim on the Chinese throne, something that may be considered offensive to the Chinese given the history between the two countries). Hzh (talk) 10:16, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

OK, I've decided to remove some of the dates. It's confusing to have conflicting dates in the same article. I expect it's a problem that comes from converting dates from Chinese into Western ones, but I hope someone will have more definitive dates. Hzh (talk) 20:59, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

I just wanna know, which date is the real one. Cause there is two dates for his dates : -220 and -210 so it changes from 40 to 50 his death age.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Momo63904 (talk • contribs) 09:26, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

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Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Qin Er Shi which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:00, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 11 June 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa (talk) 23:01, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

First Emperor of Qin → Qin Shi Huang – This was just moved as part of a low-traffic RM at Qin Er Shi, a much less prominent figure. I feel there are enough references to Qin Shi Huang [1] [2] that it is the common English name for this person. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:30, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Ping @Timmyshin and Zanhe: who commented on this move in the previous discussion, and the closer Cuchullain. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:30, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Interesting. Would it be easier to just move back and reopen the previous RM? It had a pretty low participation.--Cúchullain t/c 20:32, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
I considered asking for it to be re-opened, but decided to start a new discussion here instead. If you'd prefer a different approach, that's fine with me. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:35, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
No problem for me. Probably best to discuss separately from Second Emperor of Qin anyway. I'll note to the closer of this RM, I recommend that a "no consensus" close should default back to Qin Shi Huang as the more stable title.--Cúchullain t/c 20:44, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Support. Here is an ngram. There are three forms of the subject's name that are each more common than the current title. Nine Zulu queens (talk) 21:49, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Neutral - adding another variant spelling ("First Emperor of the Qin") to NZQ's Ngram above [3], the results become much closer. Qin Shi Huang/Qin Shihuang is the most common variant, but "First Emperor of (the) Qin" is also very common and is preferable per WP:UE. Each has its merit IMO and both are acceptable to me. -Zanhe (talk) 23:08, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Support - Popular culture (eg. Civilization (series)) have long used Qin Shi Huang and that is what I suspect what most English readers will be using to find this page. The consensus to use "Genghis Khan" instead of the more academically correct "Chingis Khan" as that article's name is, to me, also instructive for this discussion. _dk (talk) 01:36, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Support - I don’t know what happened. Someone made a mode request and the name of the article was immediately changed, without discussion. We need to go back. --Lecen (talk) 02:06, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
There was discussion (the move request was here) which is why it was moved. However, participation was limited. I offered to move back and reopen the discussion, but this is the way the nominator wanted to go to handle it. The current RM already has substantially more participation than the other one.--Cúchullain t/c 14:04, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Support. Qin Shi Huang is the WP:COMMONNAME. Article should never have been moved off Qin Shi Huang in the first place; that previous low-participation RM basically snuck through by being on the low-traffic Qin Er Shi page, which should also be moved back. —Lowellian (reply) 01:22, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
In all fairness, the move discussion notice was prominently featured on top of this article [4] for over a week, yet few people chose to participate. There was no underhand attempt to "sneak through" the change. -Zanhe (talk) 02:06, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
I didn't say it was underhanded, and I'm not impugning anyone's motives. I'm just saying that when there's a move request that affects multiple pages, it's better to have the move discussion on the most popular page rather than the least popular page. —Lowellian (reply) 03:04, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Support' and probably revert most of the others as well In ictu oculi (talk) 07:11, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Support – I personally prefer "First Emperor" but "Qin Shi Huang" is clearly much more common.  White Whirlwind  咨  07:27, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Pronunciation

I have undone your addition of {{ IPAc-en}} to this page. That template is meant for use with English only. It should not be used for Chinese as it does not support all the sounds in Chinese, and even as an approximation of the Chinese there were errors in both of them. Generally there is no need to provide IPA for Chinese, as Pinyin supplies the same information in a more easily understood and common form – in most cases the Pinyin matches the article title, as it does in this article.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 13:40, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

It was supposed to be the English pronunciation. Sorry about the typos in my original edit. --Omnipaedista (talk) 14:22, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
It still did not match Standard Chinese pronunciation. In a hidden comment you added it should be 'œ' which is perhaps closer but still only an approximation as the sound does not exist in English. Qin is not /ˈtʃɪn/, little like it. Mostly though, unless there’s a common English pronunciation distinct from the Chinese, there’s no need to include English IPA in the lead. Mandarin pronunciation can be read from the Pinyin. Other Romanisations are best handled by the infobox (which also includes the IPA for Manadarin, [tɕʰǐn ʂɨ̀ xwǎŋ]).--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 16:10, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
I am afraid you are dead wrong. Wikipedia is rife with English IPA transcriptions of French, German, Italian, Japanese and Chinese proper names. As per common practice, a Wikipedia entry about a foreign entity may include either that entity's English pronunciation, or that entity's native/local pronunciation, or preferrably both. All these transcriptions are relevant and reliably sourced (Collins English Dictionary, Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language are common sources for the common English pronunciation of famous Chinese proper names). I will not insist in the case of Qin Shi Huang, because the source gives a transcription which is not consistent with Wikipedia standards (i.e., Help:IPA/English does not allow /œ/). But in other cases, there is no discrepancy between what the source give and Wikipedia standards. --Omnipaedista (talk) 13:12, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
If you disagree with common practice, please open a thread here. Also note that Wikipedia just reports what reliable sources say; Wikipedia is not prescriptive. --Omnipaedista (talk) 17:47, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
I see White whirlwind beat me to fixing that, but I agree with their removal. Zhuangzi (book) is not one which has a common English name or usage, and the reading was anyway wrong. These dictionaries you are using are not reliable sources articles on Chinese topics like this. Even if they were more accurate such does not belong in the first sentence, except in cases where there is a common English pronunciation distinct from the Chinese.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 17:56, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
I will not insist. Just to say that Collins English Dictionary, Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary, The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language are perfectly reliable for English language topics. That is all that matters, since we are talking about the English pronunciation of proper names that happen to be Chinese in origin. The English pronunciation of "Hilbert" is /ˈhɪlbərt/ as per the Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary. I do not need a good source on German phonology to know that; I just need a good source on English phonology. --Omnipaedista (talk) 18:03, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
While it is true that Wikipedia is not prescriptive, in order for it to be descriptive there has to be sufficient material to actually describe. In the case of names like "Zhuangzi" and "Qin Shi Huang", they are so rare in English that there cannot be an established IPA to describe, and I would cast strong doubt upon any source that supposes to do so. The example of Hilbert proves this point – "Hilbert" is a fairly common surname in Anglophone countries—I mean, it's a Germanic name (hild + berht) that survives in both English and German—and so it is perfectly natural for there to be an English approximation of the original German (even if it didn't already exist in English, which it does). On the other hand, it would be nonsensical to draw the same analogy for "Zhuangzi" or "Qin Shi Huang". I'm appalled that the editors of the Collins or Random House even allowed this to happen. My suspicion is that the editors felt it necessary to provide IPA transcriptions of all terms in their dictionary, and so invented some in these cases. You cannot be descriptive when there's nothing to describe, and so it's far better to just use the original.  White Whirlwind  咨  22:46, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

(outdent) You imply that editors of the Collins or Random House are never reliable for such transcriptions (so you recently removed pronunciations based on these sources). However, you have not backed up your claim that Collins/Random House are never reliable for such transcriptions. E.g., "Zhou" is regularly pronounced /dʒoʊ/ by native English speakers and this is the transcription provided by Random House. I think that a general discussion about the use of Collins/Random House when sourcing the English pronunciation of Chinese proper names should be re-openeded at some point. --Omnipaedista (talk) 16:24, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Questionable sources

The article links to theepochtimes.com, which is a Falun Gong news site, www.vision.org, which seems to be some Christian media outlet, and this comic book which the wikipedia author declares to be by " Ren Changhong & al" (to make it look like a proper source?). I only went through the first couple of references, there is probably going to be more.

What is the policy on this? Are these sources allowed? Shouldn't real history books and papers be used exclusively? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:4600:D600:D823:224B:56E7:10A8 (talk) 03:08, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

I was thinking the same. The article on Qin's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_books_and_burying_of_scholars also contains a Skepticism section based on the work of a single scholar, and the reference to that article in the lede of this one is softened by a single reference to the Ren Changhong fellow. Does anyone else know more? Duxwing (talk) 01:42, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 February 2020

HI — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:484:C002:2230:99A4:9E97:342B:E9BE (talk) 21:23, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Rename to "First Emperor of Qin"

This article should be renamed "First Emperor of Qin", and the corresponding article on Qin Er Shi renamed "Second Emperor of Qin". The current naming practice gives the incorrect impression that the two emperors have the family name "Qin" and the given names "Shihuang" and "Ershi", when chapter 6 of Sima Qian's Shiji makes it clear that they are both titles. According to this source, the First Emperor regarded it as disrespectful that subjects should assign a posthumous epithet to the Emperor after his death, and therefore the emperors of the Qin dynasty should be distinguished only by numbers: from the "First Emperor", to the "Second Emperor", on to the "Ten-thousandth emperor".

As Wikipedia is many people's first contact with historical figures, it should not perpetuate obvious mistranslations. Call the article "First Emperor of Qin" and have the search term "Qin Shi Huangdi" redirect there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metuselth (talk • contribs) 13:17, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Qin Shi Huang is used commonly enough to justify it as the title of the article, what has it got anything to do with any mistranslation when it is not mistranslated? And how can anyone get that impression that Qin is a family name when the correct translation is given? Hzh (talk) 13:25, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
I agree, we already give the translation. No need to shift to an English title. Dimadick (talk) 18:01, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Update on Video Game reference to Qin Shi Huang

2016: Sid Meier's Civilization VI includes Qin Shi Huang as the leader of Chinese civilization. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Funplussmart (talk • contribs) 02:02, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Civilization 6 lets China build its own Great Wall to keep out invaders". PC Games.

Update on Cultural References for Qin Shi Huang's inclusion as a character in Fate/Grand Order.

Fate/Grand Order (2015), an online, free-to-play role-playing mobile game of the Fate franchise developed by Delightworks and published by Aniplex features Qin Shi Huang as a Ruler class servant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:4C06:3B00:3DAC:F191:FE0C:95A1 (talk) 16:32, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

[1]

References

  1. ^ "Fate/Grand Order 4th Anniversary Event "Fate/Grand Order Fes 2019 ~Chaldea Park~" [Event Report Vol. 1]". Otakumode.

Wrong IPA diacritic for Old Chinese

The Old Chinese name makes the L seem like a laminal lateral, while the Article on Old Chinese lists only the voiceless lateral apart from the (common) alveolar lateral. Because this article is protected and I made the account only to tell this to someone, it seems I can't change it myself, it would be great if someone else changed l̻ to l̥ Axthieb (talk) 18:32, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Dates and sources

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that most dates in the article lack a reliable source... or any at all. I haven't found any source that corroborates the exact dates of February 18 nor May 6, although the months could be accurate.[1][2] The chinese article dates Zheng's ascension (as King of Qin) on July 6, but I have only found one book (at least in English) that makes reference to that date. The only date that seems to have some kind of consensus is September 10, altought the chinese article uses the date July 11. If the information is dubious, I think that at least the article should state it. Anyway, that's all I wanted to say. The problem with this kinda stuff is that once its on wikipedia, others websites just copy its content and all becomes a cycle of misinformation. Tintero21 (talk) 22:28, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Records of the Grand Historian Vol. 5:
    五月丙午，莊襄王卒，子政立，是為秦始皇帝。In May Bingwu, Zhuang Xiang Wang died and Zi Zheng Li became Qin Shi Huang
  2. ^ Records of the Grand Historian Vol. 6:
    以秦昭王四十八年正月生於邯鄲。 Born in Handan in the first month of the forty-eighth year of Qin Zhao Wang
    七月丙寅，始皇崩於沙丘平臺。 In July Bingyin, Qin Shi Huang collapsed... (I wonder how does July —or seventh month— becomes September)

Qin Shi Huang successors

After Qin Shi Huang died in 210BC, his son, emperor Qin Er Shi, died after 3 years. His grandson, emperor Ziying of Qin, died 46 days after that. The Han dynasty then usurped the throne. I'm only saying what I know. [1]Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page)./wiki/Ziying_of_Qin</ref>93.95.87.186 (talk) 21:44, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ /wiki/Qin_Shi_Huang

Semi-protected edit request on 26 December 2021

Will somebody please put a comma at end of "From 247 to 221 BC"? 68.12.168.117 (talk) 20:36, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 03:41, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

No evidence for Death by mercury poisoning

Google Search “qin shi huangdi mercury poisoning” finds page after page of hits with this allegation. Such a juicy moral tale is just so irresistible that people don't demand evidence. Many say "alleged" or "it is believed" or some such, but I can see no scholarly source. Wright p. 49 is a Tertiary Source.

As the section Reputation and Reassessment points out, Han writers, such as Sima Qian, created the image of a bad guy (they had lots of material to work with, to be sure), and this allegation should be treated with skepticism (even though he's well past the WP:BLP "sell by" date).

Finding the source of the allegation would be helpful. It could well go back centuries.ch (talk) 22:18, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Emporor of china

bruh I typed this and dis website is fake get off it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:6E00:68B:7C67:1593:5F35:D2CD:5BBD (talk) 09:46, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

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