Talk:Pug

Health problems section

Under the health problems section, there are two distant sections, "common conditions" and "severe issues." The distinction might lead the pet owners to underestimate some of the health conditions that might require a lot of medical bills such as skin fold dermatitis, obesity, and corneal disorder and otitis externa. These could lead into severe conditions as well. There's a sort of misleading language used here because these problems are common and happen often for pugs, but the word "common" could be used to describe something that is less serious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Christineeseo (talk • contribs) 21:33, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

I've rewritten the health section and addressed this issue. It was incorrect anyhow as several 'serious' conditions were actually quite common. Traumnovelle (talk) 09:06, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Due for another GAR?

There is an entire section which violates WP:NOTGALLERY by having almost zero prose outside of captions. It might be time to have another look at this page. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 02:35, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and removed 'File:Sad-pug.jpg|Eyes should be large with a rounded shape and dark in color.'. Other photos show the eyes well and the anthropomorphism in the file isn't good either.

Rest of the photos seem to be useful to me and show different things. The section for historical photos may be a bit excessive especially the ones where the Pug isn't the main focus. Traumnovelle (talk) 09:20, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Name etymology

The article states that Pugs originate from China but gives no explanation for the origin of the name, whether borrowed from one of the Chinese languages or given by European owners. Does anyone have any information on where the name came from? Ulysses4627831 (talk) 09:19, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and written a paragraph on the etymology using the OED as a source. Traumnovelle (talk) 09:34, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

I believe it comes from the Latin "Pugnus" or "fist". Will add to section later with source. Fishguy2004 (talk) 16:56, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

"Pug" as a descriptor for the Chinese ancestor

will go through and rectify this later but just to note:

There is no ancient Chinese pug. The dog we know today is both genetically and historically distinct from the extinct Chinese breeds they originate from. The pug has more in common with the Papillon and Pomeranian than it does other oriental toy dogs such as the Pekingese and Shih-Tzu. See the paper: "Genomic Analyses Reveal the Influence of Geographic Origin, Migration, and Hybridization on Modern Dog Breed Development".

The pug name and standard were both devised by Europeans. The breed initially imported by the Dutch in the 1600s was the Lo-Sze, and the Happa dog would be introduced into pug breeding programmes after 1860. Both breeds died out after the rise of communism in China and subsequent "dog tax". Fishguy2004 (talk) 16:55, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

lead addition of minor colour variants

This addition to the lead [1] has been made six times (and counting) by user:Pugdad78. It has been removed by user:CycloneYoris, user:Reshadp, user:Jamedeus, me, and user:LilianaUwU. We don't need to cover minor colours in the lead, and they are already mentioned in the "Physical characteristics" section. Meters (talk) 06:14, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

It's at ANEW, by the way. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 06:15, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Yup, you beat me by one minute. Meters (talk) 06:17, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Health problems

Vets (rather like doctors) don't always agree with each other 100% of the time. Some vets are instinctively concerned about the health of Brachycephalic dogs. Other vets feel that if a dog has come from a responsible breeder, has a good owner with a good cleaning and care regime, then the health of Brachycephalic dogs isn't necessarily a cause for deep concern compared with some other dog breeds who can also suffer from various other health issues – for example, Dachshunds and Basset Hounds are susceptible to back problems, like intervertebral disc disease.

Brachycephaly can refer to cats such as the Persian as well as dogs like Pugs.

The section on "Health problems" in this article on the Pug currently states: "Effects of brachycephaly are stridor, stertorous breathing, emesis, skin fold dermatitis, brachycephalic airway obstructive syndrome, exophthalmos, pharyngeal gag reflex, cyanosis, and laryngeal collapse."

I feel the wording of this should be changed to either "Potential effects of brachycephaly are...." or "Risks of brachycephaly are...."

It's not true that all Pugs across the world suffer from all of these nine conditions mentioned above. Some Pugs are more wrinkly than others. Some Pugs have wider nostrils than others. Of course, the personal experience in my life of Pugs is not a valid source for Wikipedia, but it's simply incorrect to suggest that all Pugs suffer from a condition like skin fold dermatitis.

I don't seek to sugar-coat the article by suggesting that Pugs are not susceptible to these health issues. They are susceptible, in the same way that some other breeds of dogs are susceptible to other different health issues, but it's not the case that 100% of all Pugs around the world suffer from all of these conditions mentioned above like skin fold dermatitis. Regards, Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 00:38, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

>Other vets feel that if a dog has come from a responsible breeder, has a good owner with a good cleaning and care regime, then the health of Brachycephalic dogs isn't necessarily a cause for deep concern compared with some other dog breeds who can also suffer from various other health issues

If you can find a reliable source that states that such you can add it but the consensus is overwhelming in the idea that brachycephaly causes airway obstruction, the condition itself results in anatomical changes to the airway.

> Dachshunds and Basset Hounds are susceptible to back problems, like intervertebral disc disease.

Osteochondrodysplasia is mentioned on the Basset Hound article although not on the Dachshund article so I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest here.

>I feel the wording of this should be changed to either "Potential effects of brachycephaly are...." or "Risks of brachycephaly are...."

I don't believe that the current wording implies that every brachycephalic dog will experience all of these symptoms although I have no objections to adding potential to the wording.

>but it's simply incorrect to suggest that all Pugs suffer from a condition like skin fold dermatitis.

That's not what it's saying but as I said I am fine with a qualifier of potential for the many effects that occur with brachycephaly.

But when it comes to brachycephaly, aside from retro pugs or pugs bred with a longer muzzle (which would fail the breed standards given which require brachycephaly): all pugs conforming to the standard are susceptible to it. This study looks at 66 pugs for example and found all of them suffer from a form of airway obstruction. [2].

I've gone ahead and changed the wording to be more precise and there's already a retro pug section to highlight non-standard pugs that may be healthier or at least don't suffer from brachycephaly. Traumnovelle (talk) 01:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I just noticed the description/appearance omits mention of the muzzle even though it's mentioned in the lead and elsewhere. Will rectify that. Traumnovelle (talk) 01:28, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Possible AI photo?

It seems as though the photo provided for this article is AI generated? The dog is oddly proportioned and the front paw is twisted in an unnatural way. 142.120.56.184 (talk) 02:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

The photo is a decade old. The reasons for the oddities is because it's a very unhealthy dog. Traumnovelle (talk) 09:05, 4 April 2024 (UTC)