Talk:Public housing in the United Kingdom

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RTB discount[edit]

Can you supply a cite for the 70% discount? I'm not saying you are wrong, but when my mum and dad bought their house in 1991 it was with a full discount (33 years residence) and it was 60% (subject to a max of £50,000) Icundell 22:58, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Here you go: http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_housing/documents/page/odpm_house_024003-02.hcsp#P43_6642 The 70% only applied/applies to flats. Incidentally, I like the way this page is slowly growing, with little bits added here and there. This is how it should be! Redlentil 15:57, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Cheers. I think that should be made clear in the article since it implies that flats (damp, leaky, no green space) are much harder to get rid of than houses (72 foot back garden). Thoughts? Icundell 16:34, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've had a go, but it could no doubt be more elegantly phrased. Please have a look. I've also added some thoughts on the current position but it's a bit wooly. Given your contribution to Geography of the UK on regional disparity, of which this is an example, you may well have something to add. (We seem to frequent the same sites. Are you sure you're not me? Redlentil 21:27, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Have we ever been seen together in public? Icundell

The discount stuff was fine. I rejigged the 'stigma' section a bit, as much to avoid 'asylum seeker' seeming pejorative as anything. Icundell 21:46, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Arms Length Management Organisations and Large Scale Voluntary Transfer[edit]

This is my first time using Wikipedia so I'm surfing around bits to see how it works. It's wrong to end this article with the decline of Council Housing. the use of ALMO's and LSVT has been used to good effect in investing in the stock and introducing some flair, similar to Housing Associations, into the market. How is an extension to the article commissioned?

  • It's not commissioned - you just do it! Go right ahead and add to the article. That's what Wikipedia is all about. (Welcome, by the way!) Don't worry about spoiling someone else's article - one of the things people here know is that nothing is private property: anything you write can be edited by anybody else. I'm sure there's useful stuff to be added about ALMOs etc, so anything you can add will be really worth doing. Redlentil 19:12, 13 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Largest council estate in the country?[edit]

This article says Becontree, Aylesbury Estate says it is. How do we measure - and do we have sources? Secretlondon 09:38, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There seem to be a huge number of claimants to this title. Out article on Becontree gives a figure of 27,000 houses, while the Aylesbury Estate has only 2,700. Other claimants include Wythenshawe (population about 80,000) and Bransholme (population about 40,000). One difficulty is counting what exactly is a council estate - many developments had some houses for sale for the start, and in drawing boundaries - for instance, much of northern Sheffield consists of council estates, which if counted together might well be as large as any of these, but they are generally thought of as seperate areas. Warofdreams talk 16:50, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes - I think I've heard the title given to the Grahame Park estate in Hendon too. What is an estate? It could be argued that 27,000 is a town. Secretlondon 18:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Becontree is seen as just one estate by the Post Office, so that seems enough to justify its position.

We need a list (from somewhere authoritative) of the biggest estates in the country. This will stop people keep adding their local estate as one of the biggest in a strange form of inverse local pride. Any idea where we should look for one - the specialist housing press? Secretlondon 21:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Guardian is claiming the Aylesbury again - as the largest in Europe! It's not even close. [1]. ps removed bnp style crap ranting about "ethnics". 90.192.184.31 01:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not Just in Britain[edit]

Council houses are found around the world

one of the estates in my town is known as smatieland coz of all the different coloured houses

Would this be NL? --TGC55 23:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Apogee → Heyday[edit]

Minor change: Retitled the section discussing the boom years of council housing construction from Apogee to Heyday. The titles of the other sections were fairly straightforward; "Apogee" didn't seem to mesh well with them stylistically. Doonhamer 01:51, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

New Picture[edit]

Can a registered user please add the picture at the top of the Seacroft, Leeds page under the current picture. Seacroft is one of the biggest council estates in the country and the picture seems fitting. Thanks. 80.47.210.67 21:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed the picture - but 18,000 isn't that big. It seems common for a local estate to be seen as the largest in the country, europe etc - I can think of several claimants in this bit of London alone, and as the article says, Beacontree has 100,000. Secretlondon 22:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We also need to be careful that we don't imply that all council estates are 1960s tower blocks - they aren't. Secretlondon 22:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you read the heyday section this is made quite clear. Icundell 13:48, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes but pictures of just tower blocks give a strong impression, picture speaking 1,000 words etc. Secretlondon 19:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for adding the picture Secretlondon. 80.47.211.228 19:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Criticisms not thorough enough[edit]

It states that asian and black populations "could not initially live" on estates, but provides no reason why. Was it a policy, either overt or covert? Was it simply reactionary pressure from racist tenants? Or what?

Also it says this problem has subsided recently. Again, why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.78.23.54 (talk) 01:53, 29 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

You had to be a resident of the local area to gain council houseing. After a while, they had lived locally long enough to be eligible for council housing. Epa101 08:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Isn't it a criticism that a major downfall of the original concept of council housing is that it segregated lower income people - as in grouped them all together to create low income areas that are were stereotyped - even until this day. I think this article should discuss the negative stereotyping that is associated with council houses to give a realistic 'picture' of what it is like in England. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.100.39.210 (talk) 21:04, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The criticism that the 'combination of security of tenure and subsidized rent' leads to misallocation of resources could equally be applied to private housing - a variety of tax breaks and hidden support for mortgage holders has existed within the UK tax & benefits regime since the 1950s and the private housing stock has numerous examples of, for example, widows living in four bedroomed houses. One could argue that this is not seen as problematical because of the prevailing ideological climate within the UK. Indeed, with the advent of the 'bedroom tax' this criticism has become politicised and this should be referred to.

Similarly, the criticism that council housing acted as a barrier to labour mobility can be equally applied to private housing, especially in south eastern England where house prices prevent new workers from joining the labour market. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EddieTheDog (talk • contribs) 16:45, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Who wrote this and were they joking?: "Council house residents may be stereotyped as an underclass.[58] In reality council house residents are ethnically and culturally diverse.[59]" mdclxvi (talk) 15:16, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

List of estates[edit]

Someone has added Castle Vale as "a particularly notable example". That article claims it was the largest in the UK when it was built. The problem is that about 50 estates are claimed locally to the the largest in the UK, in Europe etc. We *need* an authoritative list of council estates by size. I'm concerned we are just repeating local folklore here. Secretlondon 12:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect it's one of those situations where an awful lot of people can be right, given the vague definition of "estate" - does, for example, Becontree count as a single estate or a bunch of houses that just happen to be near each other? Does the Barbican Estate count as a council estate, and if so do you only count the residential units or include the huge commercial, educational and arts complexes on the site? (FWIW, Shakespeare Tower on the Barbican is the tallest council-owned housing block in the country.) Plus just to add to the fun, some of the best known estates are relatively small - Blackbird Leys, Broadwater Farm, Byker, Divis Flats (which I'm shocked to see is a redlink), North Peckham Estate etc etc etc. Personally I think this article is getting too skewed towards being about council estates and not council housing — iridescent (talk to me!) 16:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Added a mention of Cressingham Gardens, for balance. Article mentions many sink estates, but none where the residents fight to save their estates. John15CM (talk) 15:05, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Photographs[edit]

The photographs now make it look like council houses are only towerblocks. There are many examples of social housing in the UK that are low rise. We are giving a distorted picture with all these photos. Secretlondon 12:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Part of it's no doubt that tower blocks are distinctive, while normal council houses just look like any other house. A bigger problem is that everything's relatively new-build; not only are there no 30s low-rises, but there's no conversions; certainly in the South, a good-size chunk of council stock dates back 100-200 years (such as the rows of Georgian houses in Kings Cross) — iridescent (talk to me!) 21:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To give an example - my estate is a Victorian terrace. I agree that tower blocks are distinctive - but Council housing doesn't necessarily = brutalism. You do get 1930s LCC estates locally - they are quite different looking to the 1960s ones. We need some proper research really - % of different types etc. I'm sure it'll be in specialist publications somewhere. Secretlondon 22:57, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Something else that's likely skewing it is - while this is just a gut feeling - I suspect "normal" houses and low-rise flats are far more likely to have been "right-to-buyed" then tower block flats and the "concrete lump" style of architecture, which has probably been skewing the figures in recent years. (I'd guess a far higher percentage of Broadwater Farm is council-owned than Becontree.) — iridescent (talk to me!) 19:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect that if a contributor wanted to take a picture of a "council house" they'd go to the local high rise estate - they wouldn't think that some local low rises were Council housing unless they knew. I suspect Wikipedia's demographic is such that the vast majority of contributors don't live in social housing.. (This is a hunch from the edits to articles like chav) Secretlondon 22:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Have added images of low-rise housing. (BTW, you'd have to go a long way to find a "local high-rise estate" in many parts of the country, Secretlondon!). One of the problems with this article is that it is called "Council house" but is in fact about "Council housing". A council house is a ...house. What you have in high-rise blocks are council flats. -- Picapica 13:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've added an image of some 1990s new-build council housing as well (yes, they are still building them...) - it was getting quite heavy on 1930s low rises & 1960s tower blocks — iridescent (talk to me!) 21:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Added picture of Cressingham Gardens. Gives some balance. As pointed out above, current picture display unbalanced too many tower blocks.John15CM (talk) 12:58, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Media section[edit]

Does anyone have any strong opinions on the merits of the Media section? IMO this is a clear example of a disorganized and unselective list which adds nothing to the article — but since so many people seem to have added to it (and to have edited this article without removing it) I don't really want to delete it without consensus — iridescent (talk to me!) 16:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

link to official site[edit]

how bout putting a link to the official website of the council housing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.109.229.205 (talk) 12:25, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Where are the sources for these controversial assertions?[edit]

"When Britain witnessed mass immigration after the Second World War, new immigrants did not initially qualify for council houses and this led to racial segregation in housing. This has changed over time; most large cities have council estates with large Asian and Black communities. The division remains most marked in Dewsbury and Bradford, which both have large Asian communities that remain concentrated outside the council estates." I'd like some evidence for this - none is given. 92.29.76.62 (talk) 21:02, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Origins[edit]

There needs to be a small addition in the history of council housing that is rarely known, and that is parish housing. I can summarise an article about it from Agricultural History Review in a few sentences. The article is 'Housing the Rural Poor in southern England 1650-1850' in Agricultural History Review Vol 48, Part II (2000), and can be read free on the internet i.e. you don't have to a subscriber! Chrisemms (talk) 20:59, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rents[edit]

I'm surprised that there appears to be nothing about the rents charged. I came here looking for confirmation - or otherwise - of an assertion I once read, that council-house rents were originally set at one-third of the tenants' income. There must be some information on this.Sdoerr (talk) 22:33, 1 January 2012 (UTC) .` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.191.9.166 (talk) 06:10, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Rename article[edit]

Can we rename this article Public housing in the United Kingdom in line with other similar articles.Leutha (talk) 07:41, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Came to the page to suggest that there are two articles here- council estates, and the building known as the council house, it seem to make eminent sense to fork. At the moment, we talk about flats (appartment blocks) in an article about an interesting house form, and stir in some contentious politics into the mix! Do we have a consensus or a time scale?-- Clem Rutter (talk) 16:20, 10 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK time to be WP:BOLD @Leutha: the consensus is overwelming.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 22:16, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Restructure and recast[edit]

There are two approaches to cleaning up this article. The first is to go through and discover the good bits and ensure they are referenced, clear out the polemics, then to look at what the article should contain, and write those sections integrating in the existing material. This can then be polished. That is the approach I am taking. The second method would be to go in with a plan, write the sections- integrate the existing material then scrutinise its references- equally valid but a choice had to be made. At some stage we will have to discuss political philosophy, government corruption and how it is affecting this sector. But lets leave that fun until we have a solid fact base.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 23:57, 29 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have tagged the article- We seem to have three sections with no references- one which is a incomplete hotchpotch of council estate names. Any thoughts about a major cull them using a navbox to present the list. It wouldn't require references- and we can use this section to show the notable estates. [[Public housing in the United States has an interesting structure: there is a section for social issues, and history is subdivided by housing act- which would make sense here. There were interesting town planning developments formulated because of public housing and interesting housing types that can only be discussed here. References for all of this abound. Any thoughts?-- Clem Rutter (talk) 14:34, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Council built housing[edit]

"Liverpool Council resolved to build the first council houses in England - St Martin’s Cottages, completed in 1869 in Ashfield Street, Vauxhall. The Council then built Victoria Square Dwellings opened by Home Secretary Sir Richard Cross, in 1885.[9]"

The City of London Corporation built flats for 160 families in Farringdon Rd in 1865. See pp. 42, 61, Tarn, J.N. (1973) Five Percent Philanthropy: An Account of Housing in Urban Areas Between 1840 and 1914, Cambridge, Cambridge University Press https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=yCQ9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA62&lpg=PA62&dq=st+martins+cottages+liverpool&source=bl&ots=FvQHeVRjhD&sig=FRLkyUoCdqc0sGZCX4wRNhPeqGg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiSm6bZ9pvQAhUBCCwKHdqzCYM4ChDoAQhLMAk#v=onepage&q=st%20martins%20cottages%20liverpool&f=false Robocon1 (talk) 18:01, 22 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, 2nd sentence of introduction: "Before 1885 housing for the poor was provided solely by the private sector. " Robocon1 (talk) 09:47, 23 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, something needs to be changed. Have a go at adding the information- and we can think about making a big structural change later if needed- I have real life pressures at the moment.--ClemRutter (talk) 10:21, 23 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Edited to include City of London 1865 build, cites to blog replaced with cites to reference works and RIBA archive. Robocon1 (talk) 14:22, 24 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

privatizaton[edit]

"Many of these developments did not live up to the hopes of their supporters, and now suffer from urban blight."

that is because they were defunded in favor of privatization. Nothing to do with "hopes" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:540:C400:8C80:24E0:BA1:8E91:E834 (talk) 08:09, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Views of IP editor --ClemRutter (talk) 11:58, 29 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Parking a reference[edit]

  • Jones, Owen (28 December 2018). "More MPs should live in council housing. It's not meant to be a poor ghetto | Owen Jones". The Guardian. Retrieved 29 December 2018. ClemRutter (talk) 11:56, 29 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Debate section an embarrassment[edit]

This is Wikipedia, not the Morning Star newspaper. This section is full of loaded language, no attempt to portray both left and right wing approaches to the issue, and assumes that right-wing criticisms are motivated by snobbery/contempt for the poor.WisDom-UK (talk) 20:27, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Global Poverty and Practice[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2023 and 19 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Shriya175 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Smg02, Kcoreas1.

— Assignment last updated by Ctalwalker (talk) 16:38, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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