Talk:Process Church of the Final Judgment

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Initial Comments[edit]

I am a member of The Process Church of The Final Judgement and would like to correct you on the fact that you say Robert was taking the Church on a more Satanic Leaning, This is far from correct, the truth of the matter is that a divorce occurred between Robert and Mary Anne and put excessive strain on the Group as Mary Anne tried to exert Control and turn it into a Jehovian Cult, The Foundation finally splintered also and the result was a Group called Best Friends In Utah. — Preceding undated comment added 03:33, 30 November 2002

I too am a member of The Process Church of the Final Judgement - and what people don't get is that the leadership of The Process - prior to the skizm - ceased to be Processeans - they acknowledged their leaving, and the people that stayed on also acknowledged their collective departure. So what became of this person and that person is irrelevant. If you want to focus on what we are doing NOW - TODAY - then post some questions.

All of this unfounded jabber does nothing except continue these 'urban legends' that have spawned from the continued discussions that are really warped.

And all of these so-called references to Scientology - the elements that may have existed were removed way back in the early 70's. What's left is purely Processean. We're authentic in what we do, and there was a very strong effort to make sure we were not stealing anything from anyone or any other group.

And some of you wonder why we keep to ourselves? What would you think if you're Church was accused of all of this evil? We have families and lives - please - be polite - and keep your speculation to yourselves.

But of course people are not interested in the truth, just something good to read... Something to boast about...

Thanks to those who try to keep the truth up-front and present.

As it is, so be it. --Harmanus 20:49, 7 March 2007 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.40.41.250 (talk) 20:49, 7 March 2007‎

As it is I am engaged in what I hope to be a fruitful study of The Church yet all I have to rely upon to date are the texts, music and videos available in public forum. Does anyone with authenticity care to engage me in a dialog toward a beneficial understanding, please? 4markviaanger (talk) 22:34, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well I have been a part of organized religion since I was a child and I can say it has left me quite disillusioned. I also am curious on knowing what the process was truly about Cleveland333 (talk) 09:07, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments 2004[edit]

Michael Mountain a.k.a. Hugh Mountain and known by his religious name Father Aaron, is the son of the founder of Granada TV, Sydney Bernstein. Michael Mountain co-founded The Process, Church of the Final Judgment with Robert DeGrimston a.k.a. Robert Moore or Moor a.k.a. Christ. The church first incorporated in Louisiana in 1968 and Michael has continued to this day to be the President. The Process has changed it's name several times and is now Best Friends Animal Society in Kanab, Utah. www.bestfriends.org Here you will find more than 20 of The Process founders, Mary Anne De Grimston and her inner-circle, living on a 23,000 acre ranch called Angel's Canyon (Manson called his ranch Devil's Canyon.)

When Sydney Bernstein died in 1992, Michael Mountain became an heir to his fortune. Over the years he has contributed large amounts of money to The Process Church. To this day, much is written about their connections to the Son of Sam murders, the Manson murders, the Zodiac killer, human and animal sacrifices and many more heinous crimes. Whether or not these accusations are true is still under investigation. — Preceding undated comment added 21:41, 5 February 2004

I would question whether Robert de Grimston ever called himself Christ. I would be surprised if Robert de Grimston were continuing to be involved as you described, but I make no comment about Mary Anne in this regard. Best Friends appears to be the successor to the Foundation Church, the group that broke away from The Process when the de Grimston marriage failed. ☮ Eclecticology 10:31, 2004 Feb 6 (UTC)

If I implied Robert was still connected to the group, I apologize. He hasn?t been connected since 1974 when he was ousted and not allowed to even visit his friends. My belief is that Mary Anne wanted more excitement and liked the criminal aspect while claiming to take on a Judo/Christian belief. Robert wanted a more normal life yet he has been the scapegoat for much of Mary Anne?s behavior.

Public records show The Process, Church of the Final Judgment - May 18, 1974 - Name Change, The Foundation Church of the Millennium. This wasn't a splinter group and records show the corporate name changed several times over the years and is now Best Friends Animal Society. Most of the same people are currently listed in the documents, no one new has been added, and they continue to hold the non-profit corporation established in 1968. — Preceding undated comment added 21:24, 7 February 2004

My apologies I had misread Robert where you had put Michael. (But then Michael Moore certainly has fame of his own.:-)). I was just rumaging around the Best Friends web site and find no mention of Mary Ann. Managing a care facility for animals doesn't seem at all consistent with the kind of personality which you have yourself described.
I haven't had the privilege of examining the corporate records in Louisiana, and what effect that would have on any continuing right to use the name "The Process" (but without the reference to The Final Judgement. Robert did continue using it at least until March 1975 when he seemed to realize that "formal organized structure" of the Process had come to an end, but that The Game would go on. The structure had become "subject to the JS reality." ☮ Eclecticology 02:05, 2004 Feb 8 (UTC)

Mary Anne's whereabouts has been kept a guarded secret. You won't find any mention of The Process Church on their site or at the sanctuary. They claim to have dropped their religious beliefs and became a secular organization. Yet the same people are still together after 35 years. It's all so interesting and suspect once you get past their ingenious and well disguising front.

For $25 and a phone call to the State of Louisiana you can receive a certified copy of their complete Articles of Incorporation dating back to 1968 and naming everyone that has been involved. It's all in the public records. — Preceding undated comment added 23:22, 8 February 2004

Yes it does leave one suspicious. What I am curious about is who owns the copyrights to the Process material? I suspect it would be Robert, but many of The Letters from the Omega have an end-notE saying in all caps, "THIS MATERIAL IS THE PROPERTY OF THE PROCESS", but signed by Robert. ☮ Eclecticology 09:33, 2004 Feb 9 (UTC)

That's a good question and I don't have the answer. An attorney would be the one to contact. They have the original corporation, but they abandoned the name and say also the theology. Perhaps they kept the corporation so no one could restart the church and rekindle the interest to "their" connections with Manson and Berkowitz. — Preceding undated comment added 23:02, 10 February 2004

New religious movement[edit]

I am going to add this article to the new religious movement category. I'm not familiar with this group, but it appears that it once was a religous movement, and that its significance was related to religion. -Willmcw 08:43, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

Some of the things said about The Process make me laugh...[edit]

Some of the thing that have been said about The Process make me laugh - but at the same time it does pain me to hear about all of these 'connections' to this and that which are absolutely made-up at the expense of some very great people.

To me it appears to evolve around the generating of money, a money-mill is what I term it... Put a another book out - make a lot of money. Sensationalism sells.

But then there are the consequences of people who do not check their facts, or are of the belief that they can write about someone or a group of people or an organization that they feel will never be able to challenge them... Now there's a mystery to think about...

It does come to my mind that these 'authors' - who in my heart I hope are true and honest - must be careful not to continue to defame the name of my Church. One author who just didn't check his facts out, learned, painfully the consequences of such actions; and so did the publisher as well...

One thing I think that some of these people who dream up these connections must also understand is that they've hurt us. They've linked us to these killers which has become a nightmare. And I might also say at the expense of the families of the victims. You really don't hear much about the young people whose lives were taken, nor do you hear about how their families and how they've had to cope over the years... What were the contributions that these victims could have made?

And now we hear the pathetic banter of this putrid Berkowitz spouting off as he is now "Saved". We ran prison ministry's, and you don't deal with these types at all. They are in jail for a reason. They are there to pay for their horrible crimes and they should sit and think about what it was that they did to hurt so many. The last thing anyone should do is pay any attention to them. The only people talking to them are law enforcement.

One of our beliefs is that we should love our enemies; I find it very difficult to call upon my Processean soul to invoke the words of Christ, and extend my thoughts and prayers to these killers.

All of the best. --— Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.109.111.250 (talk) 20:37, 15 January 2006‎

This article is ridiculously poorly hacked and un-researched. When I have the time, I will edit further, but I did delete a few lines. First, we had a line claiming that Degrimston was an executive in a telecommunications company, and then, just a paragraph below, we read that Degrimston is a business consultant in NY. In fact, he's a consultant - he has contracted to a "large telecommunication company", but we only need one mention of this. Further, who cares if some no-name hack author, Newton, makes the wayward claim that the Process were involved in white-slavery and narcotics? Who is he, and what makes him say this? It's a ludicrous claim and can't be substantiated. Also, in response to the comment below: " To this day, much is written about their connections to the Son of Sam murders, the Manson murders, the Zodiac killer, human and animal sacrifices and many more heinous crimes. Whether or not these accusations are true is still under investigation." You are wrong. These accusations are not, nor were they ever seriously, under investigation. Name a department in which these claims are open to investigation. As for the copyrights to old Process material, they belong to the holders of the corporate charter, Best Friends. Also, Michael Mountain is NOT the son of Sydney Bernstein, but a close relation. And FINALLY (for the moment), Mary Anne isn't involved in anything anymore. Mary Anne is dead. I would recommend some knowledge of the topics you chose to write about, and stay away from non-sources like "Newton", whoever he may be. --Suture 07:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I will attempt a major overhaul of this article in the coming months complete with citations of sources and removal of potentially libelous material. Anyone wishing to edit this article should know that a new Church using a similar name has come into being. This new Religious Movement appears to be centered on charitable works. they do use some of the older sacred writings but neither of the former DeGrimston's are associated with it personally. It is true that what is left of the Process following the 1974 breakup is now focused on Animal Rescue work as part of Best Friends Animal Sanctuary but they are not evangelizing or seeking new members. They do hire for work at the sanctuary but adherence to their beliefs are not a requirement for employment.
Most of the tabloidesque accusations againt The Process originate from just two publications, THE FAMILY by Ed Sanders and Maury Terry's book on Son of Sam, ULTIMATE EVIL. Both authors demonstrate a fundematal misunderstanding of the origins of the group and it's principles while active. What is true is that some unusal individuals, some with tendencies towards violence passed through the open doors of Process Coffee Houses and Process Missions. Before it's implosion in 1974, The Process was very loosely organized and came into contact with many elements of the counter-culture. Connect enough dots and you could could connect the process to whatever crime you like, I suppose. However, that's not scholarship. Please support my work on this article when i get underway. I'll post a new section here when I begin my edits. Lisapollison 01:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Holy Terror Church of Final Judgement[edit]

How does The Holy Terror Church of Final Judgement relate to The Process Church of The Final Judgement? From an outsider's standpoint, it seems that they use the same symbolism, and some of the beliefs seem to of both churches seem similar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.220.87.25 (talk) 07:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Current status?[edit]

Adding something as to the current status (active or defunct) of the group might be beneficial. I know next to nothing about them, so can't update the article myself. Surv1v4l1st (Talk|Contribs) 00:43, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone know anything about the involvement of other groups in relation to the process like the Jesus Freaks the Boda Sala and the Scientologists and even the Hare Krisna. There were a number of cults during the sixties. I used to go to one of the coffee houses and there were members from other groups you would run into occasionally. There were all kinds of mysterious activities and undercover stuff that would often surface. I remember one time one guy came into the coffee house swearing up and down that another guy from the Boda Sala who hung out at the Process had tried to perform some sort of spell or whatever on him and that after getting extremely angry and engaging him in a fight he was able to break up the ceremony. It was a strange story but that's how it was back then. Sex, drugs, rock and roll, and cults were the way for a whole lot of people. They all presented themselves rather innocently but seriously while not being altogether serious in some of their behavior. Money was always behind the scenes in a big way and heirachies were the law of the day. I believe that Process activities are probably still going in Utah but much more secretive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.124.115.197 (talk) 09:48, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Deleuze?[edit]

The article states that "[f]ollowing DeGrimston's removal, the group underwent a significant change in orientation and renamed itself the Foundation – Church of the Millennium. Many of the same believers left to follow Gilles Deleuze's Anti-Oedipal movement." The citation for this is broken, and I can't find any other corroboration. This statement seems suspect given that there was never really a Deleuzian mass movement and Anti-Oedipus didn't appear in English until 1977. I would not be surprised if this turned out to be vandalism. Jordansc (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 04:15, 30 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Self-published source and redlinked category[edit]

@Layla2008: There is no category named Category:Best Friends Animal Society, and Coast to Coast is a novel by Jonathan de Peyer published by PublishAmerica, which is a self-publishing outfit, making is inappropriate as a reliable source without independent commentary or context per WP:SPS. If Jonathan de Peyer is a recognized expert, some reliable, independent sources should be included to support this. Grayfell (talk) 01:15, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Of course Jonathan de Peyer is a recognized expert. He is de Peyer's son, only Mary Ann's husband. Wikipedia states nowhere that you cannot use self-published references; one is to use caution. Both Verney's, de Peyer's, and Jarad's books are very good perspectives and personal accounts of their experiences in The Process as they were obviously members or born into it. Obviously you are trying to hide negative aspects of the cult since you chose to remove Jarad's and de Peyer's references, but not Verney's account. For anyone wanting to learn more about The Process, those books should be listed. Wikipedia is to be unbiased, which obviously you have trouble with.

Don't worry, I'm digging up a whole bunch of articles from the 60s, and you are going to have a real hard time claiming those to be "unreliable".

In the mean time, I will continue to reverse your undos. You are not the "master" of this page. It is a community effort. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Layla2008 (talk • contribs) 01:39, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nowhere does the article explain who de Peyer is. It's a self-published source, but the article provided no means for the reader to assess it's relevance or reliability, which makes its value very hard to determine. If you can point to a reliable source explaining this, it could be restored with an explanation of what it is and who he is. Otherwise it's just one ISBN among many, and it's not a good fit. I've removed the Verney source. I missed it before because it was as a ref, not as a further reading link.
If you are familiar with WP:PRIMARY, then you may also be familiar with WP:NPA: No personal attacks. I don't know that much about this group, and have no desire to white-wash it or promote it. Wikipedia has standards for sources, and that's my motive for cleaning this article up. Wikipedia goes by reliable source, not personal expertise, which is why this is so important, and why any effort to improve this should be based on neutral, independent sources. That's the core of WP:NPOV. I hope that you do include more reliable verifiable sources. The article could certainly use them. Continuing to revert my edits is edit warring, and will lead to getting blocked, but there are plenty of alternatives still available. Grayfell (talk) 01:53, 10 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Deleuze[edit]

The article's lead states that, "Many of the same believers left to follow Gilles Deleuze's Anti-Oedipal movement" - with "anti-Oedipal" linked to Anti-Oedipus. That claim seems strange, to say the least. Is it properly cited? FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 23:15, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Judgment or Judgement?[edit]

The logo spells judgement with two E's in it, but the article title has only one E in judgment. Should we be making this consistent? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.1.95.159 (talk) 08:12, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 17 May 2018[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move the page to Process Church of the Final Judgment per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 04:15, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]


The Process Church of The Final Judgment → Process Church of The Final Judgment – Per WP:THE. Chicbyaccident (talk) 16:42, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

David Berkowitz (Son of Sam)[edit]

The Son of Sam killer states he was a member in this documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPF3fuICqhM at 21:27.

I'm not sure if or how can this can be linked into the article, but that would be a pretty notable member. 108.200.234.93 (talk) 02:13, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree: that video ("Son of Sam Speaks: The Untold Story") makes it pretty clear David Berkowitz claims both the Process Church and other members of it were involved with the Son of Sam murders. Here's another video where Berkowitz claims membership in the Process Church. Whether these matters are true or not is a separate issue. But given that Charlie Manson's claim is noted in the article, so should Berkowitz's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMF-06Fj8yg
Phantom in ca (talk) 02:41, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Are these WP:Reliable Sources? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:20, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The narrator voicing for the writings by Maury Terry in Netflix's Sons of Sam s Descent Into Darkness 4-part documentary (actually, docu-series more technically/accurately), in circa May 5, 2021 draws a distinct parallel or solid connection between Berkowitz and The Process Church.. fyi. -From Peter {a.k.a. Vid2vid (talk | contribs)} 06:08, 8 May 2021 (UTC).[reply]

Best Friends Animal Society[edit]

There is no verifiable or reliable source linking the two together. The reference should be removed. Clintoncimring (talk) 02:34, 6 February 2019 (UTC)Clintoncimring[reply]

Here is a piece in the words of founders of Best Friends Animal Society about their involvement in the Process Church. This is published on the organization's site. -AuthorAuthor (talk) 04:47, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Groups Ideology and Beliefs?[edit]

The article is lacking any real detail about the philosophy or ideology of this group, except to state they believe in one god (which wouldn't be considered a novel concept in 1960 -- nor would their beliefs in Scientology, which was also gaining popularity during this time).

Do they have an equivalent of "holy scripture", like a "bible", or meeting places, or a hierarchical structure? etc???

In the initial phase of the group's beliefs, Moore and MacLean taught that there was only one supreme divinity, God, and the focus of the group's activities was to transform those aspects of human nature which defied God.[9] Many of the group's therapeutic practices or "processes" (hence the name) and concepts were derived from Scientology, including the term "processing."[9] In these therapy sessions, the group utilised an electronic meter titled the "P-Scope", which was based on the Scientology E-meter[13] 139.138.6.121 (talk) 05:01, 31 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article linked below offers these clues to the possible existence of source material by/from the Churtch/Society itself, if anyone feels like :following up on them:
"Several active Facebook pages and a website exist today under the name The Process Church of the Final Judgment. The original entity changed ::its name
multiple times after it first officially incorporated in New Orleans in 1968, becoming, in chronological order, the Foundation Church of the Millennium,
the Foundation Faith of the Millennium, and the Foundation Faith of God before it arrived at its current official title: the Best Friends Animal
Society.... Because the Best Friends Animal Society simply changed its name instead of incorporating as a new business, it was easy to link to its odd
origins, and in 2004, the Rocky Mountain News published a lengthy, rather amused-sounding article about the whole thing."
-- https://64parishes.org/sinister-scenesters
As is probably usual, there are a lot more secondary sources like the page quoted above, various books by other parties, etc., so I will tread cautiously
on my way out before this becomes discussion. Nlaylah (talk) 07:30, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What do they *believe* in?[edit]

This is a religious group, so they surely must posses some beliefs? The article doesn't state. They believe in a singular god. That's a good start, but it doesn't help the reader understand this groups beliefs. Christianity, Islam and Judaism also believe in a singular god. Is this a Christian group? Is it a Muslim group? I don't think so. What is it, exactly? 21:34, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

I want to add, I think their "symbol" is *extremely* menacing. To me, it evokes something like a Nazi Swastika. 139.138.6.121 (talk) 21:57, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There's a bit about beliefs in the "Teaching and Activities" section. Apparently they had four gods -- Jehovah, Lucifer, Satan, and Christ. Because Satan (and Lucifer) was in their pantheon, they were Satanists to a degree I suppose. Herostratus (talk) 02:54, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
See the newly split Beliefs section. Editor2020 (talk) 03:11, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Any web presence?[edit]

Do they have a web presence that can be linked to in the article? Valgrus Thunderaxe (talk) 07:41, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See External links section. Editor2020 (talk) 21:45, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The End[edit]

I am always interested in endings - they are never as well documented as beginnings.

'Fortean Times' No 134 May 2000 had a very good article on the Process, which described very evocatively the last time DeGrimston was seen - I don't think "although abandoned the project in 1979, when he moved professionally into business" quite covers the pathos of it.

"The final end came in 1975. Crossing Boston Common with a few dedicated believers and his current paramour DeGrimston suddenly stopped and told his loyal few "We're just going to leave you now, OK?", and walked with his partner across the Common, into the land of Grey. Last reports were that he found work in an American Telephone Company".

I propose to add this to the article if no one objects. Wolstan Dixie (talk) 19:56, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Poor cogency in article[edit]

The History section introduces a Robert Moore without any indication that he is also previously mentioned as Robert de Grimston. I see the Wikipedia page on Robert de Grimston specifically refers to his alternative name as Robert Moor - without an "e". Sohpix (talk) 13:43, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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