Talk:Prince Marko/Archive 1

Archive 1

Date of birth

Does anybody have any idea of his date of birth? Manning says 1355, but his work is fictional. Anyway he includes the story about Marko judging the succession after Stefan IV's death - which happened in 1355! The Marko of legend is clearly older than Stefan V (born 1336), but I don't think we can read anything into that. So when might he have been born? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.10.100.97 (talk) 21:47, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Raviojla

According to the article "it is very interesting that "raviojla" (reads "ravioyla") means "Beautiful girl" in Celtic languages". This is simply wrong. I speak three of the four living Celtic languages and there isn't even any remotely related word meaning "beautiful girl". Unless any hard evidence for that claim can be presented, I suggest it should be removed.

BTW, why is Raviojla describled as an elf-maid? Elves (álfar, alver, ælfen, Elfen, Alben, and so on) belong to northen Europe. Wasn't she really a vila, some other Slavic fairy, a nymph, or what have you, rather than an elf? --Salleman 02:41, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You are right, Raviojla/ Ravioyla is a vil(l)a. In epic poem we could read: "vila Ravioyla..." No, she is not elf, or elf-maid... (Raviojla/Ravioyla means: girl(-like) with beautiful hear, literarily.) But, <quote>it is very interesting that "raviojla" (reads "ravioyla") means "Beautiful girl" in Celtic languages</quote>, could not find in article. --Ninam 23:39, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

POV

This is a POV article, which discussed only the Serbian point of view. Bulgarians and Macedonian Slavs refer to him as a Bulgarian/Macedonian Slav, which I will add in the near future. There is a lot of Bulgarian poetry devoted to Krali Marko (the Bulgarian name of the historical figure). I'm wondering what the right title of the article is. Obviously it won't be fair for the article to be called Krali Marko, Marko Kraljevic or his Macedonian language name. If there's no interest in the matter, I'll make changes soon. --webkid 18:17, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Of course, his mention in epics of surrounding peoples must be mentioned but I've never heard that anyone claims that he is Bulgarian. Nikola 20:34, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

217.10.246.155 has replaced much of the article with the Bulgarian legend instead (and wrote a page on "Vulkashin"). We need to integrate the two. --Joy [shallot] 16:33, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

BTW, a compromise name would be Prince Marko which is what the name really means. --Joy [shallot] 16:34, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree if others agree. The variant is used in English. Nikola 08:56, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Why do we need a "compromise name" at all - let's just point all varieties of his name. Ogneslav 23:15, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Primarily because this is an English Wikipedia where the words "krali" and "kraljević" have to be translated one way or the other. I moved it. --Joy [shallot] 10:16, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If everybody is ready to leave behind chauvinistic agenda (like in the case with so called Crnobog),

While we're at it, why is "the case of so-called Crnobog" chauvinistic? I noticed that you moved the page manually to Chernobog, which isn't a proper way to do this because the page history is lost. If you simply explain why Chernobog is so much better than Crnobog or indeed many of the other variants at Talk:Crnobog, we'll make a full move, it's no problem. --Joy [shallot] 13:05, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

we might just include the story of Krali Marko from both Bulgarian and Serbian POV. It is even going to be interesting to compare how the epos evolved. But Nikola - putting "Great Serbian" tools in use is not gonna work. I find this deeply offensive

Which "Great Serbian" tools? What are you, GP's sockpuppet? Nikola 08:48, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

and am not gonna sit an watch. Claiming that Bulgarian rulers of South-Eastern Macedonia were Serbians makes no sense and I take it really personally - like a slap in my face. Ogneslav 23:15, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ethnicity aside for a moment, Vukasin was Serbian ruler because he was proclaimed zupan, despot and king bu Serbian tsar Stefan Uros, and ruled a kingdom within Uros's (Serbian) tsardom. Logically, so was Marko, who continued to rule the same teritorry. Encyclopedia Britannica, mentions Vukasin in History of Serbia[1]. Nikola 08:48, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Even Serbian historian Ilarion Ruvarac in 1888 wrote: "Ali je Kraljevic Marko rodom bugarin i s jedna i s drugi strane, t.e. bugarin i po otcu Kraljic Vukashinu i po materi Jevrosimi (Jeleni), sestri despota Momcila, koj je takodje bio rodom bugarin". Ogneslav 23:15, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ruvarac isn't the only historian in the world, you know. Nikola 08:48, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Prince Marko is above all a Serbian epic hero. By the ways of Serbs living with side by side with other nations he also became a hero of Macedonians, Bulgarians and even Croats. Nevertheless, he is celebrated from the Adriatic (where the first songs on him were recorded) to East Bulgaria. Since the only connection between these two lands were the Serbs living in both areas he is a Serb hero. It is a nonsence that a Bulgarian or Macedonian epic hero is celebrated in areas that have never seen anyone from Bulgaria like North Croatia! The same thing is with Hunyadi Janos who is a popular charachter in Serbian folk songs but no one doubts that he was first the hero of Hungarians and that he is historicaly a Hungarian.--Dultz 00:21, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

OK I edited the article, clearing all national agenda. Seems quite justiful to me like this. 217.10.246.155 11:37, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It's good enough, to the same tune that my edit was, except less integrated. I suppose if the myths are that much different then they should be separate. --Joy [shallot] 13:05, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is not POV question, King Marko isn't Bulgarian feudal lord cause he has nothing to do with Bulgaria, he was a Serbian king ( Bulgaria had emperors, not kings ), his father was Serbian king and his uncle Ugljesa was Serbian despot, their family was in service of king Stefan Decanski and emperor Dusan and they formed their states after the collapse of Nemanjic dinasty as their succesors. Calling Marko Bulgarian feudal lord is just an echo of Bulgarian pretensions on territory of Macedonia and calling everything connected with Macedonia Bulgarian. I suggest Bulgarians here to read Jirecek's history of Bulgaria and History of Serbs and see who was Marko. Also I appeal to Bulgarian users not to edit this article just to please their nationalistic urges,factual accuracy and reliabilty should be on the first place.Clanedstino

No Celts, please

The claims that the name Ravijojla has a Celtic origin is without any scientific proof. It is an offspring of popular school of thought influenced with Celtic legends and Irish music that would like a lot of names and legends in Serbia and Balkans to be Celtic. In scientific spheres proofs of Celts in Balkans in our AD era are unknown. As the user who wrote the claim has failed to give us any citation that would lead to some evidence about it (and I consider it an impossible task) I deleted the aforementioned section. --Dultz 21:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Historical - epic Marko: King - prince

Marko Mrnjavcevic, a historical figure, wasn't a prince. He inherited his father Vukasin Mrnjavcevic's throne who careed the title of King. Surname of epic Marko could be translated as "Prince".--Ostalocutanje

We should use the most common name, and I'm not sure that Marko was actually crowned as a king. Nikola (talk) 17:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's a well known fact... He was crowned a "young king" while his father Vukašin was still a co-ruler of Stefan Uroš V of Serbia. In the church of Sveta Nedelja in Prizren there is an inscription that says the church was built "Povelenijem i otkupom mladog gospodina i kralja Marka" ("I'm not sure how "povelenijem i otkupom" should be translated, but "mladog gospodina i kralja Marka" means "by young master and king Marko"). In Stefan Lazarević's biography by Konstantin Filozof written some thirty years after Battle of Rovine Marko is reffered to as "kralj Marko" or "king Marko". But I'll have to find some real sources, and I'll try to do it soon... --Ostalocutanje

Yes, it's odd that the article is named Prince Marko but the very first sentence begins with "King Marko" Markowe (talk) 09:28, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Stop reversing the article

OK I would like to see user who constantly reverts article to Bulgarian feudal lord and name of Marko's mother from Alena to Jevrosia actually providing some source for this, except Bulgarian sharlatans as Misirkov. I hope that abovementioned user will use something else except his nationalism as argument in this matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clanedstino (talk • contribs) 20:35, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Kingdom of Prilep

No such thing ever existed, it's a modern and inappropriate term to describe lands once ruled by Marko. In reality Marko's title was king of Serbs and Greeks, like his father's whom he inherited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clanedstino (talk • contribs) 15:07, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect statement

According to the Bulgarian philologist Krste Misirkov, Krale Marko songs in Macedonia and especially in Serbia, the so called Bugarstici[45] are a result from Bulgarian musical influence over the Serbian folk music.[46]

First of all, there are no "Krale Marko songs" in Serbia, there are songs about Kraljević Marko. This statement is factually incorrect, because the bugarštice were strictly limited to Dalmatia and the Bay of Kotor, with a handful of them recorded in adjacent areas and in Italy among emigrants from Dalmatia [Maja Bošković-Stulli (2004), "Bugarštice", Narodna umjetnost 41 (2), Zagreb, pp. 9-51]. No such songs have ever been recorded in Serbia and Macedonia. There are several theories about the origin of the word bugarštice, but none of them states that the word developed in Serbia or Macedonia.

That sentence is referenced to Misirkov, who was apparently misinformed about the bugarštice (if his claims are correctly described in the sentence). While Misirkov may be a notable person, this so obviously incorrect statement should not be present in this article. Vladimir (talk) 15:41, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm still not sure why you removed the statement. It was correctly referenced to Misirkov. The sentence did not state this was a fact, but simply that a scholar thought that way. On the other side claiming that it was obviously incorrect is your own opinion on the subject. I do not see why such a piece of information should be omitted. I'll be restoring it unless this has been clarified. --Laveol ^T 16:07, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

That sentence states what Misirkov claimed about the bugarštice. In that sense I suppose it correctly describes Misirkov's claim. But what that claim includes is obviously incorrect, since the bugarštice have never been recorded in Serbia and Macedonia (for which I gave a relevant reference in brackets []). So, that sentence actually informs us that Misirkov did not know where the bugarštice came from. I'm not sure that a wrong assumption of a scholar about this subject is necessary to be included in the article. If it was included, than it would require additional explanations of why is it wrong, and that would unnecessarily waste space. Vladimir (talk) 17:03, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't deny Misirkov's scholarly contributions, it's just that associating the bugarštice with Serbia and Macedonia is incorrect. About the author of that reference I gave: Maja Bošković-Stulli.

Are Macedonians an entity independent from the Bulgarian ethnicity?

Resolved

"Therefore, the same tales are also seen as part of the ethnic heritage of the present-day Macedonian nation, which had not yet come to be regarded as an entity independent from the Bulgarian ethnicity at the time when most of the songs were recorded."

I think that underlined part of the above sentence is irrelevant for the topic of this article and also against NPOV. Therefore I propose to remove it.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:31, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

What is against NPOV? It isn't POV, but reliable info and I redded it with academic sources. However, it is in some degree really irrelevant for the topic of this article. Jingiby (talk) 13:49, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

I propose to avoid dispute about the ethnicity issue of Macedonian nation and to remove above mentioned underlined part of the sentence only because it is irrelevant for the topic of this article?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:17, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

OK. Jingiby (talk) 15:03, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Nations? In the 14th century Balkans? --124.149.72.155 (talk) 09:57, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Doubted serbian natinality and hidden facts.( delted from the serbian author of the article)

In 19th century in new born Kingdom of Serbia comes the very importnat question of the nationality of the "hero of heroes" Kraljević Marko (Krali Marko). The quiestion is related to the serbian politics and interests of asimilation and anex of the Macedonian province which is still under turkish ocupation in that time. Up untill then that time the question of the nationality of Prince Marko was never elevated in literuture in folk songs and epic stories. The old sourse where Marko is mentioned as serbian hero is the Mavro Orbin's The Realm of the Slavs6 in 16th century. Based on that authour the serbian politics claimed the hero as a serbian national character. Evidance that Krali Marko is a bulgarian are much more. Konstantin Mihailovic states that Marko is a bulgarian hero in 15th century when he passes Bulgaria and Serbia writting his Memoirs of a janissary7 Same states Ivan Musaci an albanian hronist in his chronics named "Blood cant become a water" 8 That Marko is bulgarian states Georguy Sfances in his book " The hause of Asen". Same is said by Teodor Kontakuzin, Josif ben Josua, Kosta Crnoshanov and others who claim him as "bulgarian prince" Many other later scholars and writers of the Ottoman slavary in Balkans between whom Adam Krchevic, Vasile Petrovic, Ilarion Ruvarac, Vladimir Chorovic state that the Krali Marko is " родом бугарин" - "born bulgarian" and that the statement of Obrini that Marko is born in Livano is a "meaned mistake" to make Herzegovians revolt against the turks when Obrini was alive.

It is well proved and well known that Prince Marko was Serb. There is no need for propaganda my friend. We don't have anything against any of Bulgarian kings, so please also respect our kings as well. Best regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.224.17 (talk) 19:59, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Sources

Can anyone find some good sources to put into the Literature section? Much of it is unsourced. Thanks in advance. 23 editor (talk) 17:46, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how could it be sourced but by referencing the works themselves. Nikola (talk) 14:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Good job

On behalf of WikiProject Serbia: congrats on the GA-status, thanks to users VVVladimir, Nikola Smolenski and 23 Editor, among others, for their great work!--Zoupan 16:09, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

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