Talk:Prelude to the Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 2

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1 Archive 2

Merger discussion

I have suggested a proposal to merge the section of 2021–2022_Russo-Ukrainian_crisis#Reactions into the article Reactions to the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis, it is meaningless to create a new page spliting from the main article but the main article still exists repetitive information of the same topic. LVTW2 (talk) 05:47, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Hatnotes and similar articles

I disagree with Thrakkx's reversions (Special:Diff/1073860003 & Special:Diff/1073860372), as I think it's highly likely readers could be searching for any of these titles while trying to find the appropriate destination article (and therefore WP:RELATED, Tharkkx's rationale for the removal, wouldn't apply). I've restored the hatnote at Russo-Ukrainian War as I think it's a particularly clear case of where readers may be seeking the article on the current invasoin. I'd also support restoring the hatnote here, but would like to seek other editors' views. Jr8825 • Talk 02:28, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

I do not think you are interpreting WP:RELATED correctly. We only use hatnotes at the top of a page for articles with very similar titles (redirects included), not to account for the differences in language our readers may use when searching. Thinking about the Russo–Ukrainian War: if the 2022 invasion and the 2021–2022 crisis are that important to connect (and they are) we would be sure to link to them in the first paragraph (and we do). That is why these links do not belong in a hatnote at the top of the page. Thrakkx (talk) 02:38, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
@Jr8825: I'd also like to point out that another editor seems to agree with my reasoning and has manually undone your revert on Russo-Ukrainian War. Thrakkx (talk) 00:51, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Discussion on impact of the crisis on African and Indian immigrants in Ukraine.

Several reputable sources have mentioned that the Ukrainian officials have discriminated African and Indian students in Ukraine from a safe passage. The following news sources highlight these concerns in detail:

There are several more reports and videos that show these incidents are factual. I believe this must be added to the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis/conflict entry. Distincta (talk) 20:43, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the heads-up. I think that this has to be added in the article of the war, instead of this one, which covers the lead-up to the war (i.e. up to 24 February). I suggest you to put your request in the discussion page of that article. P1221 (talk) 08:18, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Russian claims of nuclear armament

2/27/22 the russians have stated that they will be arming nukes[1] should we add this? Diepanzerwaffles (talk) 17:21, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Putin puts Russia's nuclear forces on alert as fighting in Ukraine continues". www.cbsnews.com. Retrieved 2022-03-01.

War

This isnt a crisis its a war. You are being used by kremlin to spread their propaganda by not calling it an invasion 109.173.217.77 (talk) 20:45, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

@109.173.217.77: You're looking at the wrong article. You want either Russo-Ukrainian War or 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. — Czello 20:52, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Crisis?

What would have to happen to call this conflict a war instead of a "crisis"? Matrek (talk) 17:15, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

@Matrek Then it won't fit the description of the events. A war is an intense armed conflict: this crisis is not. There are no formal territorial incursions by the Russian forces. PenangLion (talk) 17:18, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Excuse me? There is no what? No Russian military incursion on Ukrainian territory? Or just "no formal"? What does that mean? Russian tanks and infantry around Kyiv and shelling civilian areas in the city are what, sightseeing trip? Matrek (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:43, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
I guess you have not realized that there are at least 28 articles covering the entire topic. Look at the infobox, look at the dates. PenangLion (talk) 12:40, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
@Matrek See the move request above. There is an article for both the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine and the overall Russian-Ukrainian War. I do agree, however, that a better, more neutral name is needed.Kehkou (talk) 22:29, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 24 February 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Consensus could not be achieved to move this article to the proposed title. Some editors cited WP:CRYSTAL, some cited the fact that 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine had already been created to document the events post-24th February. Some editors put forth a proposal to move this to "Run-up/Leadup to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine" instead and continue to add details about the invasion to the aforementioned article. However, the proposal failed to garner attention and as a result support. Anyway, the vast majority of arguments were made a week ago, and since then, the quickly changing circumstances have made the opinions presented then stale. It would be futile to ping every involved editor and ask them to reaffirm or to allow them to change their opinion after the events of the past week. As such, it's pointless to keep this request opened for any longer, and better to open up this space and let the community determine the future of this article as it sees fit. Regards, (closed by non-admin page mover) ---CX Zoom(he/him) (let's talk|contribs) 13:56, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis → 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian conflict – 'Conflict' more precisely describes the situation, being the type of crisis Kehkou (talk) 01:30, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

This is not a merger request! There will still be two separate articles, so "separation of articles" is not a valid argument here (and should not be counted toward consensus). I see now that maybe Leadup/Prelude to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is a much better name than "conflict" but I think it is too late to change that. We would have to hold a whole new discussion. This is not a response to any particular editor, but rather of the recent trends here. Kehkou (talk) 06:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

  • support Now as we edge into the hundreds with the confirmed deaths from both sides, it can definitely be classes as a conflict. user:EditorialGuide 14:25, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. Waddles 🗩 🖉 02:25, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support per Kehkou and Waddles. It is generally agreeable that this event has spun into something worse than a crisis. PenangLion (talk) 02:33, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support Definitely a conflict. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 02:36, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • I hope this is just a normal crisis to be honest. 02:42, 24 Febuary 2022 (UTC)
  • Hold Why not wait for a while, at least until midday 24 Feb? And then creating a new article 2022 Russo-Ukrainian war might be due, moving this one to Run-up to 2022 Russo-Ukrainian war.Axxxion (talk) 02:48, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Wait – It is much too early to decide what this article will be called. We need to see two things 1) what actually happens in the coming days and 2) what reliable sources call those events, if and when they occur. At this point, there is no way to know what the common name will be (and there certainly isn't a common name for what's happened up until now), and furthermore, without a WP:CRYSTAL ball, we simply cannot determine how things will proceed. There is WP:NODEADLINE on Wikipedia, and we are WP:NOTNEWS. Wait, wait wait. RGloucester — ☎ 02:55, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:CRYSTAL. The article should be named for what has actually happened, not what is predicted to happen, no matter how confident those predictions are. ― Tartan357 Talk 03:00, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support since Putin just announced special operations into Donbass (aka declared war) BWellsOdyssey (talk) 03:02, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Wait per RGloucester. Wikipedia is not news and we do not report updates on current events live. If the situation changes by tomorrow, then I'll support renaming or even potentially creating a new article. >>> Ingenuity.talk(); 03:03, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Wait Although a defacto state of war now exists, per above, we are not a news source. This will likely be 100% supported tomorrow (US time). JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 03:06, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support They just launched an invasion, it's a war.--Garmin21 (talk) 03:07, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
It's been war for Ukraine since 2014...I guess people don't remember. RGloucester — ☎ 03:10, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
They just hit Kharkiv with missiles.--Garmin21 (talk) 03:32, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support move to "2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine" Breaking: massive explosions just now in Kramatorsk. At least four. Very big. [1] And from two WaPo reporters: Russian President Vladimir Putin announced that Russia is undertaking a "special military operation" in Ukraine saying his goal is to demilitarize and denazify the country but not occupy it. [2] I’m hearing booms in Kharkiv. [3] XOR'easter (talk) 03:12, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • ALT1: support move to Leadup to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine - The complementary/sub- article 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine already exists based on rough consensus by active editors for a split; some non-so-active contributors to the article want to wait a week for formal consensus on a split and one editor has hit the WP:3RR limit there. Better un-redirect that article if there is sufficient support rather than start a new article. Renaming this article to Leadup to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine and doing some transfers of material would make sense in terms of WP:RS, theme and WP:SIZESPLIT. (The Kalanchak border post appears to have been overrun and the webcam went offline; not a WP:RS, though. Another non-WP:RS, Bryce Wilson, based in Kramatorsk, claims that "Kramatorsk has been attacked".) Boud (talk) 03:13, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Casting WP:ASPERSIONS, and for what. That's fine. I spent years contributing to these articles, from the moment this nonsense started in 2014. I am trying to get people stop and think before they proceed, and to follow Wikipedia guidelines. But if you want to forge ahead and create a mess, that's your prerogative. Enjoy. RGloucester — ☎ 03:16, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
@RGloucester: My apology - I only meant to refer to this particular article. I don't have an overview of the older articles since 2014. Boud (talk) 03:24, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Endorse ALT1 as alternate namespace if the final state of consensus warrants it. -Kehkou (talk) 10:21, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Wait. It's all uncertain, until the dust settles then we discuss. PenangLion (talk) 03:27, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Wait per WP:CRYSTAL. Let's see if an enduring common name comes up in a few days or so. I don't think we need to start move request after move request in this article. It's fine the way it is, for now. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 03:23, 24 February 2022 (UTC) Oppose since there is now an actual article for the intervention itself. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 05:03, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support move to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine - there are now reports of multiple explosions in Ukraine. This is not a WP:CRYSTAL situation anymore. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:24, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
    Oh, wait. That article already exists. In that case, I'll take the example of the July crisis and oppose any move on this article; since the current one is appropriate and concise enough. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:28, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support now. Multiple sources announcing military action, Putin just announced military action. CaffeinAddict (talk) 03:25, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support move to "Prelude to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine", or similar title. Reyne2 (talk) 03:26, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support, reliable sources are now confirming that it is indeed a conflict (my initial concern was going off of Twitter rumors during the fog of... conflict, if you will). See e.g. WaPo front page as of UTC 04:00 "Russia begins attacks on Ukraine". WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 04:02, 24 February 2022 (UTC) Wait until RS's give us an idea of what wording to use, which should not take long. I appreciate that there is a sense of urgency here, but we cannot just make determinations based on hearsay and tweets from journalists. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 03:31, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support This cannot be anything else but a conflict, likely a major one. Any move would be quickly justified within the next few hours regardless due to the seeming scale of the attack already. ArbDardh (talk) 03:35, 24 February 2022 (UTC)ArbDardh
But, if that were the case, the word we'd want is 'war', not the euphemism 'conflict'. All the more reason to wait. RGloucester — ☎ 03:38, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Wait A conflict implies that there is fighting from both sides. Ukraine has not, to my knowledge, returned any artillery fire or made assaults on Russian garrisons in Donetsk or Luhansk. Mebigrouxboy (talk) 03:38, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oops, just learned that Putin plans to actually invade. Never mind, I Support now. Mebigrouxboy (talk) 03:41, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support per nominator and above. Maanshen (talk) 03:38, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support per nominator and above. Redoct87 (talk) 03:41, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support Per nominator. -- Mainly 03:46, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support per nominator and above, it's fog of war at this point. RazrRekr201 Msg me Contribs
2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine exists. Reuters. UN Security Council live. Boud (talk) 03:47, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment As this article is about the buildup primarily, and the invasion began only in 2022. Should this article stay as the lead up and a seperate article be devoted to the actual war/invasion? Strong Oppose Clearly invasion article is devoted to the conflict and this is just the prelude events prior to 2/24. Yeoutie (talk) 03:51, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
There is a big organisational problem. We have Russo-Ukrainian War, this article, 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. There will need to be a major restructuring, but we are not in a position to do this now. RGloucester — ☎ 03:55, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
@RGloucester Personally I find it pretty conflicting. It will be likely merged upon a newer consensus like the example you stated earlier (Donbas). Hope everything goes smoothly with the articles. Cheers, PenangLion (talk) 04:04, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support Putin declare war... OspreyPL 03:54, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support: The U.N. Security Council's emergency security meeting is convening; France's representative called Russian's actions "war". Conflict is certainly warranted. Will likely be need to be adjusted as more information develops. Svenskbygderna (talk) 04:01, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose this article should continue to be described as a crisis and should not include events past the 24th of February. instead it should remain as a description of the events leading up to the subsequent invasion, like the July crisis was for WW1 IAmSeamonkey (talk) 04:09, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose wp:CRYSTAL applies; active combat has not started. Let's not jump the gun. 142.157.192.122 (talk) 04:23, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Changed to Wait, as it appears that there are possibly signs of a conflict being reflected in RS, on both the russian, and the ukrainian sides, ie TASS, informburo ukrainy. 142.157.192.122 (talk) 05:05, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support Landing troops on foreign soil and the imposition of active fighting and conflict, makes it an active conflict. Attacking several cities in geographically varied parts of a country makes it an invasion. Cyali (talk) 04:24, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Neutral - Not sure what to call it. But definitely, Russia has invaded Ukraine & won't be retreating, unless forced to by military means. GoodDay (talk) 04:29, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support Russia has begun bombardment of Ukraine, including bombing of Ukraine's capital Kyiv. As such, this is now a conflict.--Beneficii (talk) 04:35, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Wait per above. I'd especially lean on Axxxion's idea of changing this article to "Lead-up" or something to that effect. QuietHere (talk) 04:48, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
    @Axxxion Would your idea be similar to the July Crisis? PenangLion (talk) 05:00, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Rather, along the lines of Lead-up to the Iraq War. For there is no history books with the set name for this series of events.Axxxion (talk) 05:08, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
I feel this idea could work as well, but uncertainties certainly hindered the decisions. PenangLion (talk) 05:30, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose as 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is already an article. Furthermore, at the top of that article it states this one is about the build-up to the invasion, not the invasion itself. YttriumShrew (talk) 05:10, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support - forces have launched operations. —WildComet talk 05:11, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose There is already a separate article for today's invasion, this article should be about the crisis preceding it. Mellk (talk) 05:12, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support since the situation has definitely exceeded the quota for a conflict. AlexUsanov961 (talk) 05:52, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose now that 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is an article and is explicitly not included within the scope of this article. ~BappleBusiness[talk] 06:09, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose as there is now a separate article for the invasion (2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine), this should remain about the preceding crisis. — csc-1 06:12, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose Not that it isn't a conflict and what's going on is wrong to be called that; just that what's been going on for over 8 years has been the ongoing "conflict" and, frankly, calling it this one-year thing doesn't go far enough in renaming what is, without getting into definitions or being too OTT, the start of a full-blown invasion and war. The "crisis" was the build-up and recognition of DNR/LNR, what's happening now is a major escalation into something much, much worse. If we're going on how other similar events have been documented, it seems more like a multi-page thing, e.g. 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. — Bacon Noodles (talk • contribs • uploads) 06:14, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose because now there is a separate article (2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine). I'd prefer to keep this one covering the leadup to the war. P1221 (talk) 07:26, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose probably the subject matter covered by this article should be retitled something like Prelude to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, but let's hold off shuffling stuff about. VQuakr (talk) 08:41, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose There is already a separate article about the invasion. (2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine) 👨🏻‍💻 Rng0286 (☎️ talk) ✍️ conts ;) maimai (☑️ rights) D'oh! 09:42, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support This has now turned into an ongoing armed conflict. 09:58, 24 February 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1C06:2709:2500:C874:2B3E:976:F4CF (talk)
  • Oppose as 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine now exists. I also support keeping this article as is. –Davey2010Talk 11:27, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose original suggested move as others have said their is already an article about the build up to that conflict. However, I wouldn't object to the alternative new title suggested as it may be more clear but could be a bit premature right now.--Llewee (talk) 11:33, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose per 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, hoping that page get semi protected too.Larrayal (talk) 11:59, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support - forces have launched operations. --Panam2014 (talk) 12:58, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support: No longer a crisis, certainly has escalated into a conflict due to the invasion. Thanks, EDG 543 (message me) 13:33, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose Crisis is a sufficient descriptive name; the armed conflict has been split out into its own article. --Jayron32 13:40, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Merge - Merge in to existing article Russia-Ukraine war Sparkle1 (talk) 13:42, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose since invasion now has a page of its own. Also oppose merge until we see whether this war will be fast or not. If it is, then we could probably synthetize all information into a single page. But we can't know yet. Super Ψ Dro 14:18, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Merge both articles into page. ☢️Plutonical☢️ᶜᵒᵐᵐᵘⁿᶦᶜᵃᵗᶦᵒⁿˢ 14:44, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose: 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is an article; any war will likely be short, as Russia cannot sustain a drawn-out war, so continued resistance is highly likely. A political solution would end the invasion, but continue the crisis. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 15:26, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Putin's removal from office would be a political solution, but anyways. GoodDay (talk) 16:19, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
Crisis has become conflict - I would now say Support or Merge. A normal peep (talk) 12:35, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Neutral - We may make a decision regarding this after first or second week of March Aryan B128 (talk) 18:28, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support - Even with the additional article (2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine) about the current invasion I still support a name change. The fact that we have seperate subpage I think just strengthens the need for a name change. Rovastar (talk) 19:01, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support - Call it what it is. - FlightTime (open channel) 21:03, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose – I think this would cause additional confusion for readers. The creation of the invasion article has made this RM obsolete. The current title helps to distinguish this article's scope (the recent escalation and "crisis") from the wider "conflict" (covered at Russo-Ukrainian War) and the actual invasion (covered at 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine). I'm open to Neutrality's suggestion above ("Prelude to 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine"), although I prefer the current title. Jr8825 • Talk 21:07, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Bacon Noodles. 777burger user talk contribs 22:51, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support name change, as the crisis has now turned into an all-out conflict. The word "conflict" can also be a synonym for "war," whereas the word "crisis" is more ambiguous.Davidbena (talk) 23:02, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support - A crisis is a build-up to a potential conflict, usually consisting of diplomatic actions. As Russia has undertaken military action, this is no longer a crisis but a conflict. InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:36, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support - per Rovastar. --ChetvornoTALK 00:16, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I think the better way to organize the articles would be to have an article on the crisis that preceded the invasion (which this one should be) and an article for the invasion itself (available here) and a third article for the broader Russo-Ukrainian conflict (available here). Structuring the article so that the invasion is a subarticle of this one seems like the wrong way to go about things. — Mhawk10 (talk) 02:02, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Leave the article as-is and have it be about the lead-up to the invasion. PolarManne (talk) 02:10, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose Main article about the eight-year war is Russo-Ukrainian War. This article is about the eleven months of buildup. A new article should be started on this new offensive per WP:summary style. —Michael Z. 03:10, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Neutrality and Jr8825. Booyahhayoob (talk) 03:41, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose That was crisis, similar to Cuban Missile Crisis, rather than conflict. A conflict typically implies direct military interaction between opposing sides. The recent invasion or the Russo-Ukrainian War, for example, could be described as a conflict, but not as a crisis. Brandmeistertalk 11:17, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Changing vote to oppose - Separation of articles makes this move illogical, also per Brandmeister. Currently the consensus is inconclusive. PenangLion (talk) 15:03, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support move to "2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian conflict". I agree with Rovastar that this page should be moved even though we have the main 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine article. SpookiePuppy (talk) 17:02, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose The invasion and the diplomatic crisis preceding it are both worthy of separate articles. Jsnider3 (talk) 00:17, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose per a Mhawk10 -- HurricaneEdgar 03:48, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose It's best to have two separate but related articles. TFD (talk) 04:10, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Mhawk10 and Neutrality. Support better name to cover all geopolitical aspects that led to the outbreak of this war. Pious Brother (talk) 05:35, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose per @Brandmeister:. Ytpks896 (talk) 15:38, 27 February 2022 (UTC) WP:SOCKSTRIKE – Extraordinary Writ (talk) 01:31, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Mzajac — most events in the 2021–22 window prior to the actual February invasion are best regarded as part of the 2014–present crisis, and I believe it makes the most sense to have an overview article for those and a separate article for the invasion covering both the invasion itself and the subsequent conflict. Krinn DNZ (talk) 21:49, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support - its a conflict, technically an invasion. It wasn't a crisis - that's too ambiguous. ≫ Lil-Unique1 -{ Talk }- 09:10, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support - From 24.02.2022 it's a strict conflict, an invasion with all aspect. Krzysztof Popławski (talk) 18:44, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Yeah, and for events from 24.02.2022 onwards we have 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. The invasion isn't the scope of this article. Super Ψ Dro 09:59, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose Crisis is the standard term used to describe the diplomatic escalation in the leadup to a war. The events leading up to the invasion didn't involve direct conflict, so that would be misleading.Mozzie (talk) 03:34, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Mhawk10, Mzajac and krinndnz. User:Em-mustapha talk 20:00, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
This is not a merger request! There will still be two separate articles, so "separation of articles" is not a valid argument here (and should not be counted toward consensus). I see now that maybe Leadup/Prelude to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is a much better name than "conflict" but I think it is too late to change that. We would have to hold a whole new discussion. This is not a response to any particular editor, but rather of the recent trends here. Kehkou (talk) 06:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Close as stale / no consensus - the situation has changed so much since this discussion opened that most of the comments older than ~3 days are out of date. A new discussion can be opened if a new title is still deemed necessary. Ibadibam (talk) 19:40, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
I agree, older ones are OoD and newer ones miss the point entirely. Kehkou (talk) 22:12, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Agree per Khekou. PenangLion (talk) 12:35, 4 March 2022 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

EU sent military equipment

There is an error in that table. The EU and other nations mentioned (including Italy) are sending military equipment to Ukraine, I have sources confirming it.-Karma1998 (talk) 14:48, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

@Karma1998 Pay attention, Italy decided to send arms after the war started. This article lists the event up to 23 February, so very probably your request has to do with the article covering the war. P1221 (talk) 20:34, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 4 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. There is clear consensus that this article needs to be moved, with the majority of editors saying the new title would less vague and easier to understand. ArsenalGhanaPartey (talk) 15:35, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis → Prelude to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine – Following the closure of the old RM above, and given we've had more time to process what's going on, I'd like to propose a new move. I think we all agree that the present title is insufficient. I therefore would like to propose a move to Prelude to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, which adequately situates the article as it should be situated, and militates against any possibility for confusion or overlap. This would be similar to Prelude to the Warsaw Uprising. What say you, Wikipedians all? RGloucester — ☎ 14:33, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Do you have evidence that reliable sources use this terminology? --Jayron32 14:35, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
I am proposing this as a descriptive title under WP:NDESC, given that it is much too early to be looking for an established common name in RS. The goal of this proposal is to prevent confusion. At present, numerous people come to this page for information about the current invasion, not knowing that that's out of the scope of this article. You can see evidence of this by looking at the number of talk sections made by people complaining about the title above, and comments made in the previous RM. A move to the proposed title would solve this problem, clearly defining the scope of the article. RGloucester — ☎ 14:37, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Support per RGloucester. --Olchug (talk) 17:29, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Support a less vague title, although I am torn by the advantage of a more-specific but possibly less-adequate title like “Russian military buildup before the 2022 invasion of Ukraine.” —Michael Z. 18:51, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose for now. Based on the explanation above, I agree that a new title is needed. This one feels a bit awkward, though, and I'm willing to entertain alternatives. --Jayron32 18:58, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Support, at least it would be better than current target which creates confusion with the current invasion. --Heanor (talk) 20:30, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Support a less vague title, per RGloucester and Michael Z. A normal peep (talk) 18:47, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Support per above. More accurate and clear, and this information is really, in context, now just the prelude to the invasion. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:30, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Support - clearly superior to very vague current title.--Staberinde (talk) 22:18, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Support much better than the current title (and a good use of a descriptive title in this case). Elli (talk | contribs) 00:34, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Support as a more informative and up to date title. Kafoxe (talk) 04:41, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Support to clarify that the content on this page is the prelude as the current title might confuse someone who is looking for 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine which covers recent developments. Jsraynault (talk) 06:42, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Support considering the development of the events, the proposed title fits better P1221 (talk) 20:30, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Neutral (but leaning "Support") — there seems to have been a lot of effort toward creating a hierarchy of articles, with an implicit goal of creating the parent that will go in the "ongoing" section of the "In The News" section of the front page of English Wikipedia. Moreover, there seems to be a bit of confusion about what the primary infobox should be for articles related to the conflict. Should it be Template:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine infobox or Template:Russo-Ukrainian War or something else? If we go forward with a rename of this article to "Prelude to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine", then it clearly no more than a peer (predecessor) to the "2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine" (or perhaps "Prelude to ..." is even a child article of "2022 Russian invasion..."). If, on the other hand, this article remains named "2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis", then it would arguably be the parent of "2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine". There will be people who argue that both articles ("Prelude to ..." and "2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine") are child articles of "Russo-Ukrainian War", which has arguably been going on continuously since 2014. I don't know enough about the situation there to know what the correct hierarchical placement of these three articles ("Prelude to... (1)", "2022 Russian invasion.. (2)", "Russo-Ukrainian War (3)")) is, but I suspect this renaming is going to play a role in determining the ongoing editing norms around the three. -- RobLa (talk) 01:38, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
I think of Russo-Ukrainian War as the parent WP:SUMMARY article, and of these two articles as being children, with this one chronologically preceding the invasion article. This is how they are being treated in practice now, hence my proposal here. I don't know if anyone has any other ideas about how this should be arranged, but it seems logical for the time being, anyhow. RGloucester — ☎ 02:09, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Neutral, but leaning towards Oppose. Titling this article Prelude to... implies that it's all of the build-up to the full invasion. However, there are other events, not covered in this article, that could also, in the light of history, be argued were part of the prelude. The (parent) Russo-Ukrainian War#History section consists of the following sub-sections: 1. Annexation of Crimea; 2. War in Donbas; 3. Frozen Conflict; 4. 'Russian military build-up', with this article that sub-section's 'main article'; 5. Full invasion. So I see Annexation of Crimea, War in Donbas and Frozen Conflict as also part of the prelude to invasion. I like having 2021-2022 at the start of this article's title, as it makes clear the earlier events are not part of this particular article. How about titling this article 2021-2022 Prelude to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I know it's more clumsy, but might be more accurate. Mmitchell10 (talk) 08:42, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
    I like 2021-2022 Prelude to the Russian invasion of Ukraine too. Thus I support both Prelude to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine and 2021-2022 Prelude to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Both these are better than current title. --Olchug (talk) 08:57, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
The word 'prelude' quite specifically precludes reference to a long, eight-year span of events. It refers to a short, introductory phase. If the article were to be titled Background of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, then I think you'd have a point. Rather than produce a clumsy title, I think this can easily be solved through the content of the article. As you can see, it already explains in its background section that there is a longer series of previous events, with links to our articles on them, negating any possibility for confusion. RGloucester — ☎ 14:08, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
OK, fair enough :-) Mmitchell10 (talk) 07:32, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
Support dropping the use of euphemisms in favour of a more timely and straightforward title. –Turaids (talk) 15:01, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Support. Since there is already an article entitled Russo-Ukrainian War, it makes perfect sense to change the title of this article to something remotely different. However, one problem that still remains is that the suggested new title would make it sound as if there had not yet been a war that was raging in Ukraine.Davidbena (talk) 19:33, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
Support per nom. -- HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (talk) 22:53, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
Support, however I also think we should keep this page as a redirect to the new name - DG745 (talk) 01:07, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Strong support - Very clear and easy to remember/reference. CR-1-AB (talk) 13:50, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 March 2022

From: Continued violence and escalation To: Continued escalation

From: The next day, the mission confirmed the death of a child in Russian-occupied Donbas, but failed to establish a link between the purported "Ukrainian drone strike" and the child's death.[107]

To: The next day, the mission confirmed the death of a child in Russian-occupied Donbas, but failed to establish a link between the purported "Ukrainian drone strike" and the child's death.[107]. Russian media had previously fabricated a story of child getting killed by Ukranian shelling in 2015[1] VainiusI (talk) 21:58, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/04/08/russian-media-fabricated-story-about-a-child-getting-killed-by-ukrainian-shelling-the-bbc-says/
 Not done: That would be WP:SYNTH. Find a source comparing the two events. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:41, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Shouldn't the map reflect the situation before the invasion?

As in the title, I was thinking about a thing. Since this article is about the crisis and the situation before the start of the invasion, shouldn't the map provided represent the situation as it was, at most, on 23 February, the day before the invasion started, and not a map which represents the situation as it is currently?94.38.150.134 (talk) 17:51, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I've removed the current map. The image of the build up on Ukraine's borders will suffice for now. Hopefully someone can make a more detailed map of the situation before the invasion. RGloucester — ☎ 14:41, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
I was concerned about that issue for some time now. Thanks @RGloucester for responding. Much appreciated. PenangLion (talk) 14:59, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

"Reactions", possibly including "effect on migration", could be made into it's own article

As this article is very very long, I suggest we make a page titled "International Reactions to" the conflict, or something similar. BetweenCupsOfTea (talk) 04:12, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Sweden and equipment

Sweden didn’t just send non lethal equipment they sent their own anti tank weapons which are definitely lethal 2A02:AA1:1621:A21B:85FF:F0EA:365D:F947 (talk) 04:27, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

reference? Elinruby (talk) 09:42, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Conducted major trimming

Removed all but the Russian and Ukrainian reactions in #Reactions, as a more detailed, separate reactions article is already available. Also removed some details on "International sanctions on Russia," partly to remove some bloat, and also because almost all of the citations were about sanctions that came after the invasion happened, not before. I also removed the extra Template:Campaignbox Russo-Ukrainian War sidebar lower down the article to trim down on bloat.


If there's anything crucial to this page that you believe I deleted too hastily, you can look at the edit history (the big, red, bold -100,000 number), and add it back in if you wish. DJ (talk) 03:57, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:52, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

EU response to Lavrov’s letters

This is missing from the article. https://www.eeas.europa.eu/eeas/russia-statement-high-representative-eu-response-minister-lavrov%E2%80%99s-letters_en Kaihsu (talk) 20:40, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I suggest adding this episode to the “Diplomatic negotiations” section.

Added. Kaihsu (talk) 20:02, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Prelude_to_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine/Archive_2&oldid=1184416958"