Talk:Pre-Lent

Forelent

Recommend removing the term 'Forelent'. This is not a term traditionally used for Shrovetide and its only occurrence in the Oxford English Dictionary is a past tense of the word 'forelend', which has nothing to do with this liturgical season. GrammarCleric (talk) 19:28, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 5 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Per consensus. – robertsky (talk) 11:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

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Shrovetide → Pre-Lent – This article was originally named 'Pre-Lenten Season' and this is what it describes. It was renamed 'Shrovetide' in 2016, based on a single reference that gives an incorrect definition (Gardner 2008). Shrovetide is however only the final three days of this period: the Oxford English Dictionary defines it as 'The period comprising Quinquagesima Sunday and the two following days, ‘Shrove’ Monday and Tuesday'. Shrovetide is identical to Carnival, which already has its own article. The pre-Lenten period is variously called 'pre-Lent', 'pre-Lenten period', 'pre-Lenten season', 'Septuagesima—Sexagesima—Quinquagesima', 'Septuagesima', 'Gesimatide', 'weeks before Lent' and probably other things – since it isn't a proper season, it doesn't have a formal name. (Cf. 'Vorpassionszeit' in German, 'Domenica di Settuagesima' in Italian.) 'Pre-Lent' is the most descriptive and neutral name that I can find in current scholarship, but I can see arguments for some of the other labels. AndrewNJ (talk) 02:56, 4 February 2024 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). AndrewNJ (talk) 10:01, 5 February 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 17:13, 3 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Sennecaster (Chat) 02:19, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Christianity has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 17:15, 5 February 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. FOARP (talk) 13:10, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

• I notice that the nominator has just substantially rewritten relevant aspects of the article. Are those changes desirable? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:49, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support: seems to stack up. Before the OP's recent edits this article referred to the longer period than the three days typically known, in the UK, as Shrovetide. YorkshireExpat (talk) 17:33, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose (until clarification is achieved): User:AndrewNJ, you have added Shrovetide as the synonym for Carnival (at that article) when the reference provided by User:YorkshireExpat, along with others, such as this and this record Shrovetide as being the "last three or four days before the beginning of Lent." Other references, such as the ones you removed (as User:BarrelProof noted), along with this Ordinariate Catholic parish, view Shrovetide as a synonym of Pre-Lent. The word Carnival carries a purely festive notion, whereas Shrovetide also has a spiritual dimension, as noted by this source, which states:

To further emphasize the spiritual character of Shrovetide, in the 18th century Benedict XIV promoted the “40 Hours Devotion,” a custom where the Blessed Sacrament would remain exposed on the altar for 40 continuous hours on the days immediately before Ash Wednesday. This would allow the faithful to spend personal time of adoration in front of Jesus present in the Eucharist and further reflect on their lives and look forward to the penitential season of Lent.

If this article is to be moved to Pre-Lent, then Shrovetide must have its own article (where various definitions such as the one User:YorkshireExpat provided are explicated) rather than be conflated with Carnival. Do you agree to this? I look forward to hearing from you. With regards, Anupam^Talk 23:05, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

I also note that User:Hazhk agrees that there is a distinction between Carnival (with its culmination of Mardi Gras) and Shrovetide, as evidenced here. Anupam^Talk 23:33, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is that Shrovetide is merely the British term for Carnival; it isn’t accurate to say that one is purely spiritual and one is simply festive. The Carnival article is specifically about the last three days before Lent, and the festivities themselves historically have a strong spiritual dimension in Christian thought, but I agree that more could be done to explain this. The Cartlidge article cited here touches on the key points. AndrewNJ (talk) 03:00, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate your reply. However, we have several sources that do refer to Shrovetide as the last few days before Lent. It seems therefore appropriate that Shrovetide should have its own article. If such a split is made, it would incorporate much of the information that was previously in this article. Anupam^Talk 03:20, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I am in full agreement that Shrovetide refers to Shrove Sunday/Monday/Tuesday. AndrewNJ (talk) 04:11, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I will not object to a move of this current article then, if you do not object to allowing much of the previous information regarding Shrovetide observances for these three days to be contained in its own article on Shrovetide. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks, Anupam^Talk 14:29, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Carnival would be a better place to propose separating the Shrovetide material from the Carnival article, rather than mixing this separate issue with forming a consensus on the title of this article. I have not considered what separate Carnival and Shrovetide articles would contain and thus have no opinion on the matter. AndrewNJ (talk) 15:15, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Actually this would be the appropriate place to discuss the Shrovetide content as your recent edits removed that content from this article that would form the base of that article. This article is currently titled Shrovetide and so I wish to ensure that there is a proper place for that information. If you have no objections, I could support the move here, but if you do object to that, then I would oppose the move here. As I mentioned above, the article about Carnival is not the place to talk about the spiritual dimension of Shrovetide. Anupam^Talk 17:50, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I aimed only to remove material either duplicated in the Carnival article or that did not cite a reliable source. If I overlooked something (which is entirely possible), you will find a place for it there. If I understand you correctly, what you are suggesting is a continuation of conversations on Talk:Carnival going back almost twenty years, proposing separate articles on the secular and religious understandings of Carnival. Nobody has ever pursued the problem systematically; if you want to untangle it, I am sure it will be appreciated. AndrewNJ (talk) 19:37, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

The religious references are to Shrovetide, however, not Carnival. It is hard to synthesize the activities of a New Orlean's Carnival celebration with Eucharistic Adoration of Shrovetide. A separate article will be in view if this article is to be renamed. Anupam^Talk 21:52, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Anglicanism, WikiProject Catholicism, and WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy have been notified of this discussion. Graham (talk) 01:32, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support: Anupam's reasonable concerns aside, the rationale provided in the proposal are clearly in support of such a move. Shrovetide, like other -tide terms, is generally constrained to English Protestant circles. It's a valid alternative name for a portion of the subject discussed in the article and is a very suitable redirect, but it is not the right place for this article to be filed under. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:57, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

  Support per @AndrewNJ 14 novembre (talk) 19:34, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: I would say that there is a weak consensus to rename the article to Pre-Lent, as there are more editors in favour of the move than against it, and the nominator has provided a reasonable rationale and sources. However, the consensus is not very strong, as there is only one opposer who raises some valid concerns, and the discussion is not very active or diverse. There is also a possibility of a split or merge of the Shrovetide content to a separate article, which may affect the outcome of the move proposal. We need more input from other editors to reach a clearer and more stable consensus. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 17:13, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

There is consensus among everyone that the current title is wrong (and note that the article was renamed to it without discussion). The one opposer is only suggesting that there should still be an article under this name, not that this article should remain under its current title. Would it be possible to implement the move and see if anyone wishes to propose a different title for it in the future? AndrewNJ (talk) 10:17, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: No comment in over 3 weeks since the relist. Sennecaster (Chat) 02:19, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

I've requested closure for this at Wikipedia:Closure_requests. Natg 19 (talk) 21:49, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Support move. Based on my reading of the discussion, there is no debate that the WP:COMMONNAME for the subject of this article (the three weeks before Easter) is pre-Lent, so there's no question that that move should be made. The separate question is the target of Shrovetide, which I take to be the 3 days before Easter. It sounds like there is debate over whether there should be separate articles for Shrovetide as a religious holiday, and Carnival as a wider social holiday. We don't have to decide that here, but in the present state, it's acceptable to redirect Shrovetide to Carnival, since Shrovetide is more closely related to Carnival than Pre-Lent (indeed, Shrovetide may be a subset of Carnival based on my understanding.) But even if you disagree with that, it can be a discussion of whether Shrovetide redirects to Carnival or Pre-Lent rather than gumming up the RM. -- Jfhutson (talk) 19:42, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.