Talk:Postage stamps and postal history of India

Merge stamps and postal history of Indian states as a section into Postage stamps and postal history of India

• Agree. --rgds. Miljoshi | talk 13:43, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
• Disagree. They are separate because the main India article will be rather long when it is more completely filled in, and the Indian states list will get a little longer when it acquires some more background info. Stan 13:51, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Length doesn't seem to be an issue, Stan. I get your point, but suggest a separate article when the background info is acquired. --rgds. Miljoshi | talk 13:58, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

So you want to merge them now, and split again later? It's not clear what problem you're trying to solve then. Another non-length-related style point is that it's useful to readers to separate "list-ish" from "text-ish" content. Putting a long list into the middle of a narrative is not so good for flow - the reader has to stop reading and go into "scroll mode" rolling down to look for the text again. Better to put the list off into a link, so that readers who are more interested in the list can turn aside by clicking, while the remainder can continue uninterrupted. Stan 14:44, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

• Comment. If you think the Indian states article will not get too much longer, then, I think, it should be incorporated into the main Postage stamps and postal history of India article. Either way I can make the list much shorter by turning it into a three column table as I did in the List of people on stamps of Ireland. Let me know and I can do that for you quite quickly. ww2censor 15:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
• Completely disagree with proposal. The Indian states need to be treated separately from India as a whole for a miriad of philatelic, historical and political reasons. Ideally, the Indian states should be treated individually but that would make for umpteen very small articles and the best approach is to take them as an entity, as per this article, but separate from India itself. --BlackJack | ^{talk page} 11:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Its been six months since this debate has been added to. As the concensus was to keep them seperate, I am going to go ahead and remove the tags. -Warhorus 20:39, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Images

Piling the images into a gallery at the end completely destroys their value as illustration. The point of the images is that while the reader is reading along, that screenful has an image of a contemporary stamp or two that reinforces the textual description. Gathered at the end, only someone who is already familiar with the stamps will know which is which, and of course that is not our audience. Stan 13:51, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

You are welcome to re-structure the images. They were scattered around all over the article (without any division, but as a monolith para, btw), hence the gallery - in accordance with the time line. --rgds. Miljoshi | talk 13:55, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I actually positioned them pretty carefully, so I'd like to understand why you thought they were "scattered" before moving them back. Stan 14:46, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, Stan. This is how it was previously when I picked it up. Now, with due respect to your suggestions, I have moved the images closer to their reference in the article as in Postage stamps and postal history of India/Sandbox. Hope this satisfies your concerns. And you are welcome to edit the sandbox before I move in in. Thanks. --rgds. Miljoshi | talk 10:46, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

That looks fine, thanks! It would be good to have a little more info on the important series of the 1950s and 1960s, like the motives for their issuance and so forth - do you have any details to add? Stan 14:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Have moved the changes to the article, Stan. Also refer to Postage stamps and postal history of India/Sandbox where I have put the list. Well, I have been digging for some info in this regard. Found some references like this that may interest you. It was fascinating to have a look at your collection! Its really great... Also reminded me of my own kid days. I guess I must have about 100 odd old stamps on the attic somewhere, but not sure if I can upload any (already got copyvio warnings on commons for a couple of stamps I have uploaded :-( ). If you could kindly advice...--rgds. Miljoshi | talk 16:09, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, the reading room has some interesting articles! My personal stamp collection is 70,000+ types, I've been gradually scanning in those that seem the most representative of different countries and periods. The hard part about scanning is that stamps fall into the public domain at different points - Crown copyright is 50 years, US was PD until 1978, etc. I'm still hunting down copyright info for many countries' stamps; in the meantime, my working rule is that pre-1923 is PD, and for post-1923, fair use is the usual option unless there is specific information otherwise. We also have a new rule against orphan fair use images (lost a few of my uploads that way, didn't get around to writing the article quick enough!). Stan 23:03, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, it may interest you that according to Indian copyright Act of 1957 ([1] - where the "Government work" is described as [2]), copyrights expire after 60 years from the year it was first published. (i.e. before 01-01-1945). Here, my assumption is that "release of a postage stamp by India Post" falls under "Government work" category. --rgds. Miljoshi | talk 10:10, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

The "elephant head" watermark appears too early in the article. Some illustration of the 1854 lithographed issues belongs there.Fconaway 10:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Article title

Although "Postage stamps and postal history of India" is a mouthful, it's the shortest correct option. Postal history, for instance, is the study of postal rates and usages, and only makes reference to the stamps to the extant of noting which ones pay which rates. Conversely, a "postage stamps" article would just cover stamps, with little or no postal context, and no information for the prestamp era. Eventually I imagine the two topics might be split up, but that that would take a serious expansion effort. Stan 13:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I am currently working on the postage stamps and postal history of Ireland. Due to the amount of information in each, I have started two separate articles User:Ww2censor/Postage stamps of Ireland and User:Ww2censor/Postal history of Ireland. You could take on that suggestion if you think the Indian articles will be long From my experience of Indian philately you too could have two long articles if you want to do a decent job. I have already been working for 2 months on User:Ww2censor/Postage stamps of Ireland and it still needs quite a bit of work before it is ready. ww2censor 15:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the amount of time involved should be a caution to the overambitious. Creating skeletons and stubs is easy, writing 5,000 words of original content is not. Stan 20:40, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Well put Stan, I just spent several hours writing up one series of definitives (well actually two but the 2nd is very short) and the postage dues of Ireland and that was only 800 words. ww2censor 21:40, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Footnotes

The article has markers for footnotes [1] through [6], but the footnotes seem to be missing.Fconaway 09:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

First paragraph

The first paragraph is awkward and confusing to the reader. This should lead off with a discussion of postage stamps and postal history of India, rather than a digression about the political organization of the country.Fconaway 18:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, it was the best I could think of at the time. Mackay's World Encyclopedia of Stamps leads the India section with a two-para version of India history, but the stamp info proper launches immediately into the Scinde Dawks. Of course, he only gets three paras total, less space than we have available. Usual WP style favors the lede para being an overall summary of the article, and if you had to write just one sentence that sums up the whole of India philately, what would you write? To me the most notable thing *is* the complexity and variety of pre-independence postal systems. In any case, if you have a better idea, give it a try. Ledes are a good test of one's writing skills... Stan 18:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay. My perspective is that knowledge isn't of much use unless the reader feels enlightened and secure. So, the question becomes, Why do we find complexity and variety? How did that happen? Putting it another way for an American reader, Why do Indian states have stamps? Why only some and not others? Then, how did the state postal systems relate to the Post Office of India?

I would begin at the beginning:

The history of India's postal system begins long before the introduction of postage stamps. The antecedents have been traced to the systems of the Persian Empire instituted by Cyrus the Great and Darius I for communicating important military and political information.

In ancient times the kings, emperors, rulers, zamindars or the feudal lords protected their land through the intelligence services of specially trained police or military agencies and courier services to convey and obtain information through runners, messengers and even through pigeons. The chief of the secret service, known as the postmaster, maintained the lines of communication ... The people used to send letters to [their] distant relatives through their friends or neighbors. [Mazumdar, cited below, page 1.]

For centuries it was rare for messages to be carried by any means other than a relay of runners on foot. A runner ran from one village or relay post to the next, carrying the letters on a pole with a sharp point. His was a dangerous occupation: the relay of postal runners worked throughout the day and night, vulnerable to attacks by bandits and wild animals. Under the Moguls Sher Shah (1541-45) was the first to replace runners with horses for conveyance of messages along the 2,000 mile road he constructed between Bengal and Sindh, today known as the Grand Trunk Road.

After 1793 when Cornwallis introduced the Regulation of the Permanent Settlement, the financial responsibility for maintaining the official posts rested with the zamindars. Alongside these, private dawk mail systems sprang up for the commercial conveyance of messages using hired runners. Also, the East India Company created its own infrastructure for expansion and administration of military and commercial power. The runners were paid according to the distance they travelled and the weight of their letters.Fconaway 22:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Very nice narrative! You should put it in. Not really a lede though, since most countries have identifiable postal histories that go way back, doesn't tell the impatient reader what is most distinctive about Indian philately. Of course, some articles are all about narrative, such as the "History of X" articles, and they don't tend to have one-para ledes either. Stan 22:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Stan, thanks for your comments, which are helpful. I've just looked through many of the pages titled "The Postage Stamps and Postal History of *" and find that the lead paragraphs are very uneven or even lame. For that matter, the articles themselves are uneven.

For example, we find "This is a survey of the postage stamps and postal history of the United States of America (USA)." And something like that for Australia.

I have some opinions about the significance of the Indian story, to be sure, beyond the simple narrative; but others might have a different view. The article is sort of embryonic at this point.

Yep, sometimes I wasn't very inspired. :-) Worse, almost have had any significant additions since my first lame versions... Stan 01:16, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Category:Philately

Fair use rationale for Image:Mahatma Gandhi 10 Rupees.jpg

Image:Mahatma Gandhi 10 Rupees.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 04:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge?

Could someone here have a look at Indian Rare Stamps and see if anything salvageable can be merged here? I'll put the merge tags on the article, but if it obvious to the editors here, then please feel free to merge. Can always be undone later if anyone objects. Carcharoth (talk) 06:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The Indian rarities are not covered, so the article is mis-named. The rarities are already in the text of the main article, but they are not singled out or segregated as such.

Instead, it's a list of some relatively recent errors and such, which are not to be confused with rare stamps. Noticed at least one bit of misinformation (Guru Granth Saheb). Fconaway (talk) 08:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Floyd, I knew you wouild be able to weigh in on this incident, so suggested a possible merge though a speedy would likely be best as it is basically rubbish in my opinion. Make it a redirect if you even thought that was worth it. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 15:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. Go ahead and turn into a redirect. Doesn't really meet any speedy criteria, but if Fconaway judges that there is nothing to merge, that should be fine. More efficient than AfD. And someone who searches for "rare indian stamps" will now arrive here. Carcharoth (talk) 01:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

 Done. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 01:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Satrunjaya 1949.jpg

Image:Satrunjaya 1949.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 04:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair-use rationale  Done by Fconaway. ww2censor (talk) 17:08, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The Lion and Palm Tree design

Col. Forbes' "Lion and Palm Tree" design was one of many designs which were not used for the production of stamps. Some of them were clumsy. Although there could have been some trouble printing some of these stamps, a more likely explanation is that they were unsuitable because they were quite unlike the Penny Black, the Penny Red, and the 2d Blue. The design used was very near that which had been used on British stamps for many years — the head drawn by Henry Corbould based on William Wyon's Neoclassical cameo-like profile image of the young Queen Victoria. The design parallel is seen, for example, on the 2 annas green, which has engine turnings at the sides. Likewise, the new postal system announced with these adhesives in 1854 closely followed the "low and uniform" rates of the British system introduced by Rowland Hill.

Something like the Lion and Palm Tree design did appear on the flaps of the 1857 embossed envelopes: after all, it was a design for an embossed image. If we lead off with Saksena's unanswered question about the unused designs (which seems to imply they should have been used), shouldn't we provide an illustration or at least an explanation? And, these stamps all say, simply, INDIA, not "INDIA POSTAGE"! The distinction between "postage" and "service" stamps was not made until the postal reforms of 1866 (for purposes of accounting, to control the abuses of official mail privileges).

The 1854 issues were beautifully simple and direct for the purposes of the East India Company (at that time). Fconaway (talk) 03:23, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Since I don't have very much material on all this, I cannot comment. Please do whatever is appropriate. AshLin (talk) 17:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Post-independence stamps

I don't see the point in having 5 post-independence stamps, three in the intro and another two in a gallery close to the appropriate prose, being used to illustrate what is a very short section of prose dealing with this period. The manual of style recommends: Start an article with a (my emphasis) right-aligned lead image and Images should be inside the section they belong to. Certainly 3 images in the WP:LEDE and again two more in the section is totally excessive. Remember that images are intended to enhance the readers' understanding of the topic and not just to decorate or beautify the article. It is quite clear that 5 images from one short time frame of Indian postal history are only being used for the latter purpose. The 3 ½As stamp would be quite sufficient and appropriate in the lede, with one or possibly two in the post-independence section until such time as the section is expanded with more text. At that time some additional images might be appropriate. ww2censor (talk) 21:20, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I do not entirely agree. The article is about the postage stamps of India & its postal history of which the pre-independence era is but a part. The history is skewed towards pre-independence and there is no worthwhile overview of postage stamps. The post-independence sections need expansion for which I am collecting information. The image situation is complicated due to the image policy and copyright issues. I am trying to prepare some images which will be suitable for fair use and as per Indian Post department guidelines. Let the article show the stamps till the article text gets balanced out. We'll rationalise the images then. The images should help illustrate the text. Interesting images should be added if they enhance the encyclopaedic context. A representative gallery of Indian stamps should accompany the article to meet the 'postage stamps' part of the article. Its not appropropriate to count numbers just yet. Is there an image limit on WP? Shouldn't stamp articles show enough stamps to satisfy a reader? How much is enough or too much? These should be judged once the article is maturing and reaching a stable configuration. AshLin (talk) 17:01, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I am working on preparing a list of Indian stamps, but it will take time. I expect that my output will be a para, image or improvement very two or three days. AshLin (talk) 17:01, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

"Revenue stamps" section

The article is about the Postage stamps and postal history of India. Revenue stamps are not Postage stamps, so this is an WP:UNDUE in this article.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:01, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

You are welcome to discuss this at the Philately project instead of doing a drive-by deletion. In my opinion, for the amount of prose your WP:UNDUE accusation is overstated. ww2censor (talk) 16:09, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok. done. See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Philately#.22Revenue_stamps.22_section_in_Postage_stamps_and_postal_history_of_India.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:19, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

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Project assessment banners

@MBlaze Lightning, Adamgerber80, and Capitals00:: There are numerous article that are within the interest of several projects. This article covers hundreds of years of postal service within the geographical area pre-1948, then known as India. In fact approximately two-thirds of the article deals with the pre-independence period, so it entirely proper that any geographic or period based WikiProject that is encompassed by it has the right to have its project banner included. If the exclusionists are so hard line, then the article should be separated into two articles pre-independence and post independent, but that is not the way we do a topic such as this. There are many instances of articles whose topic is primarily associated with one country but has an association, even minor, with other countries and geographic areas. Certainly the Pakistan, Bangladesh and British Empire projects have an interest in this article and their assessment banners have the right to be on this page. And to respond to Capitals00s edit summary that other projects will follow, my response is. So what? If they have a legitimate interest in the topic they should not be excluded. Where is the harm? There is none. BTW, I have not been assessing articles for just 5 minutes, but for over 10 years and have done and seen thousands that include several project assessments. ww2censor (talk) 11:57, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Non-British India?

This article deals only with India of the British Raj. Where are the sections on stamps of French India and Portuguese India? Also part of the postal history of India. Ptilinopus (talk) 21:31, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Author of the book “Dakar/Post office “based on which stamp was released on 2008

The book is my suggestion 103.70.197.202 (talk) 17:39, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion to do what? ww2censor (talk) 21:32, 27 August 2022 (UTC)