Talk:Piracy/Archive 1

Miscellany from 2004 and earlier

Someone moved software piracy, pirate radio, Pittsburgh Pirates, and Tampa Bay Buccaneers from a dignified obscurity at the bottom of this article to the top. Giving top billing to these minor instances of piracy as a figure of speech is out-of-control disambiguation. What next, a disambiguation page like the even sillier Pine? Ortolan88

I moved it, so that I could delete an unneeded 2nd reference to software piracy in the middle of the article without somebody else inevitably adding it back. I think it's a losing battle to relegate the unfortunate term "software piracy" to dignified obscurity.

We're losing ground. What were reasonable cross references have now been purged because they weren't legitimate disambiguation. And we still have the foolish software piracy at the top, even though no one would ever confuse it with sea piracy. This is why I don't like disambiguation. It is mechanistic (and, it seems, militaristic as well). Up tight enforcement of imaginary policies.

First there were pirates, sea robbers as they are called in German. Then there were sports teams, one of them called the Pirates, probably because they stole some games from somebody, and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, so called because there used to be pirates in Tampa back in the day and they still make a big deal out of it, with pirate days and the like, and there was pirate radio, which started out at sea (get it?) on anti-aircraft platforms in the English channel, and then the rather milder and less adventurous software piracy, which is stealing other people;s work, though without violence. This was all fine when the article was about sea pirates and the others were cross-referenced at the bottom, now we have on the one hand lost information and on the other raised software piracy ("our kind of piracy") above broadcast piracy and the simple use of the pirate motif in sports. All because someone was frightened of having two links in the same article. As I was saying, very silly. Ortolan88

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accuracy of this statement:

The end of widespread conflict in Europe left most of the nations in a dreadful state, especially Spain - its imperial overexpansion had bankrupted the state.

I was under the impression, at least from Euro history, that the money was just squandered...the largesse of the Kings of Spain consumed the gold of the New World

That's accurate. Military expenditures were by far the largest expenditures of governments across Europe at that time.

Peregrine981 18:46, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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Resurrecting after User:213.106.17.103

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on a sidenote: becoming a pirate was quick to accomplish for some germans in the 20th century. After unconditional surrender May 1945 the Allies declared all german military seamen pirates , who would not immediately fly the black flag instead of the Kriegsmarine flag. The black flag , however, was usually used by pirates only.

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Even after reading the preceding comments, I have added the term piracy and its connection to software & copyright to the top again as part of the article. Here's why. The article for piracy is a redirect to this page. If someone is reading about software copyright infringement, for example, and clicks on piracy, they'd come here and see only the sea pirate info and a link to the disambig page. If they go to the disambig page, they could click on software piracy or copyright infringement and get back to an article that has a link to "piracy"... and now we're in a loop. The term "piracy" needs to be called out and defined somewhere--if you want to know what "piracy" is, it would be nice to click on a link and have it defined--which goes back to the origin of the word, which has to do with pirates--AND to have it explained in context, which you can't really do on a redirect page. Does this make sense? I hope that I have written it in such a way that it doesn't feel like a non sequitur. Elf | Talk 00:35, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Etymology of buccaneer

This article states that buccaneer dervies from from boucan, Portugese slang for people of the Caribbean.

However the entry for buccaneer states that is is from the French word boucan, a frame used by the pirates to cure meat

Most sources on the web suggest that the term comes from the French boucanier (i.e. user of a boucan) including the American Heritage Dictionary entry found on dictonary.com and an Online Etymological Dictionary.

According to a French definition of Buccaneer in an etymology of English nautical terms, le mot français boucanier est sa racine. Boucaner signifiait faire griller la viande et la fumer pour la conserver ce que faisaient les pirates des Caraïbes pour conserver leurs vivres (Méthode supposée empruntée aux cannibales locaux !…) - "The French word boucanier is its root. Boucaner means to grill meat and to smoke it for preseervation, as the pirates of the Caribbean did to preserve their food. (The method was presumably borrowed from local cannibals!)"

A definition of bucaneiro on this Brazilian Portuguese page gives the French etymology.

I couldn't find any source for the Portuguese origin as stated here. If boucan is used in the sense of "people of the Caribbean" in Portuguese I imagine this will have stemmed from the French too.

So should this article use the French etymology?

Just to confuse things, One source suggests the name comes from a type of knife used by pirates called a boucan!

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, which generally gets these things right, to say the least, a French word boucan from a Tupi (Brazilian) word buka, which is a wooden frame used to roast meat, what the Haitians called a barbacoa, that is "barbecue". French hunters, known as boucaniers prepared meat in this way. The name was given to pirates "From the habits which these subsequently assumed". So, the article is in error. Ortolan88 15:37, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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I favour removing the plot spoiler in the sentence about the Dread Pirate Roberts. --Townmouse 01:32, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

To Peregrine981's statement: I was under the impression, at least from Euro history, that the money was just squandered...the largesse of the Kings of Spain consumed the gold of the New World That's accurate. Military expenditures were by far the largest expenditures of governments across Europe at that time.

Yes, it's true that Spain squandered and that military expenditures were, in general, the largest across Europe. However, to suggest that Spain's overexpansion bankrupted Spain is also not entirely inaccurate. Spain financed their very aggressive expansion policy, as well as their nobles' lavish lifestyle, by the American silver they conquered. This influx of silver drove up the price in Spain, fueling the need for more silver and thus further expansion. The cycle repeated until Spain can no longer secure enough silver to sustain their spending, finally ending in the government's bankrupcy.

Pirates in Popular Culture

I've added a bit more to the 'Arrr matey' section about steriotypical pirate clothing and expressions. I almost think this could have it's own page, just for a bit of fun. --Swamp Ig 06:08, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• I agree. Maybe it should be called cartoon pirates?199.224.81.132 22:41, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Modern piracy

"Pirate attacks tripled between 1993 and 2003. The first half of 2003 was the worst 6-month period on record, with 234 pirate attacks, 16 deaths, and 52 people injured worldwide. There were also 193 crew members held hostage during this period." -- is there a source available for these statistics?

Pirate Quotes

Apparently some guy changed the quotes, somebody might want to look into it.

Jon hart and jolly jenny

Anon user added this; I cannot find any references in any search engine online so removed it. Can anyone corroborate, or is this another personal in-joke?

Local legends claim that only one pirate still frequents American coastlines. This pirate, who calls himself Jon Hart, is the captain of the Jolly Jenny. Hart, who also refers to himself as "Cap'n Jon" has ravaged the west coast of the United States since 1999 without sight or capture by any law enforcement agency. Many agencies, including the U.S. Coast Guard, disbelieve his existence, claiming that other pirates have taken adventage of the legend.

Elf | Talk 22:40, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

ARRRRRR.

Phrasing

Days of yore? isn't that a little imprecise? chris 00:32, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Removed. -EDM 06:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I removed this

Because it is largely taken from the 'talk like a pirate' page, is factually inacurate, and, to the extent that it is acurate, is not 'pirate expressions', but general shipboard slang. Trollderella 17:21, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Stereotypical piratical expressions

Ahoy (there)!

Along the lines of 'you there'

Arr, (Me/My) Matey

Hello

Swab The Deck

Clean the ship's deck

Arrrrrr!

The onomatopoeia of a pirate, as an exclamation for various different moods. See also arg

Avast!

Stop, take notice.

Blow me down

Expression of surprise (as in being blown off one's feet by a strong gale or a cannonball)

Keelhaul the swabs

Tie the scrubber of the ship's deck to the keel of a boat. Typically the victim would be dragged along the underside of the boat where he would be badly cut by the sharp barnacles.

Shiver me timbers

Expression of surprise (as in having the wooden timbers of one's ship "shivered" by a cannonball, in the archaic sense of the term "shivered")

Yoho(ho)

Greeting

I'll Crush Ye Barnacles!

A pirate threat.

Chock 'a Block

Full; At it's maximum extent. From the situation where the pulleys of a block and tackle are touching.

Afore, Astern, Abeam

towards the front, back, and off to the sides respectively

Port, Starboard

left and right. Marked by red and green navigational colours or lights.

Point

as in "points of the compass". A compass is divided into 32 points - 8 per quadrant. So "three points starboard" is about one-o`clock. Useful for specifying directions on international talk like a pirate day, especially in bars.

Pieces of eight

From the spanish 8 real silver coin, which was sometimes scored into 8 segments to make change. Since the US dollar was originally valued at one of these, in US vernacular "two bits" = 25 cents.

Aye Aye Captain: Sayings by the Seamen when taking an order from the Captain of the Ship.

Har De Har Har! Sarcastic remark.

Yar Har Harrrr Greeting

OK, someone reverted this removal, without explaining why. If there is some reason why you think this is valid, please let me know here, otherwise I will remove it again. Trollderella 15:57, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I cleaned out a bunch of external links to non-encyclopedic sites. I left the link to Talk Like A Pirate Day and anyone who wants to find out how to say "arrrh" can look it up there. -EDM 19:01, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I removed the statement that it is typical in a modern pirate attack to kill everyone aboard the ship since earlier in the article it says 16 people were killed in the first half of 2003, in relation to the 234 attacks this hardly seems typical.- 67.169.170.140 20:37, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Pirates had a positive impact (sometimes)

A recent history channel program enlightened me, noting that pirates also had a positive impact on some of the societies they encountered. They sold tax-free products, (likely stolen products from a recently pillaged village) nonetheless, providing many poverty stricken communities with cheap food, and goods. In turn helping to relieve starvation, and possibly saving many lives. Is this worth mentioning? - R Lee E (talk, contribs) 07:27, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

It would be nice to reference a claim like that, maybe with some specific examples, but I don't see why not. Trollderella 16:44, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, the show I mentioned cited Black Beard as an example. Let me see if I can confirm this on the internet. - R Lee E (talk, contribs) 19:45, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Official Website of Pirates

Rather than search for evidence that the "official website of pirates" was not the official website of pirates—a likely futile attempt to prove a negative—I searched for evidence that it was the official website of pirates, as such evidence would be necessary in order to sustain the inclusion of this link in the article. Conclusion: the registrant of the website is not a pirate, or at least is not described as such in any material accessible to Google. Corollary: the website is unlikely to be an official pirate website. To the proponent of this information: please demonstrate to the community that this is the official website of pirates, with verifiable information that is not self-referential. -EDM 01:16, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Addendum: Further reasonable deduction: joke or hoax. Conclusion: reference should not appear in an encyclopedia article about actual pirates. -EDM 01:28, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

This is Capt'n Nezit (Peter Nezit), the creator of OfficialPirates.com. The site is new and lacking in content, but I hope to one day make it the largest consolidated source of pirate information, both humourous and non-fictional. To my knowledge, it is the only site of its kind, and there is no other evidence that would lead that it couldn't be the only official website of pirates, but nonetheless I will refer to it as "self proclaimed" until I can get the site widely acclaimed as the said official site of pirates.

(The personal information was removed due to the fact that the registrar is not the maker of the site and does not want to be associated with this site or its discussion. The registration information has been made private, check for yourself if you have any doubts.)

The thing is, Cap'n, that while your website looks like it will be plenty of fun and all that, it bears about the same relation to the subject of this encyclopedia article as Mickey Mouse does to mice. Riffs on a topic are not an encyclopedic source for information on the topic. -EDM

[To readers who may find the above hard to follow: Cap'n Nezit insists on chopping into comments I've left on this page and deleting portions of them. Doing so leaves the remnants incoherent, and misleadingly makes it seem as though I'd made a statement without support. The original text can be found here. -EDM 06:39, 13 October 2005 (UTC)]

plagerism??

Why is everything on our entry also here? http://www.answers.com/topic/pirate Should I be concerned or is there a legal link I'm not aware of?

devotchka

From Wikipedia:Copyrights:

The license Wikipedia uses grants free access to our content in the same sense as free software is licensed freely. This principle is known as copyleft. That is to say, Wikipedia content can be copied, modified, and redistributed so long as the new version grants the same freedoms to others and acknowledges the authors of the Wikipedia article used (a direct link back to the article satisfies our author credit requirement).

Dsmouse 19:28, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

oct 15 edits

It might be a little obscure, but I added DOOM PIRATE to the list of fictional pirates. He is from a comic that a kid at my school makes. I also made made so that "Maddox" mentioned under the Jack Lumber entry in the fictional pirates section linked to the wikipedia Best Page In the Universe article. I'm going to ask him to make a page on Doom Pirate

Odd References

Perhaps some reference to maddox and flying spaghetti monsterism, or perhaps even spongebob squarepants would help people assess the pop-culture meaning of the word 'Pirate'. Googling "Doom Pirate" also returns this page, so i deleted that reference 195.172.220.162 14:20, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

The Black faces beneath black flags

Pirates, as many people know, sailed under a black flag. What the general public doesn't know, however, is that many pirates were as Black as the flags they flew.

In my new novel Kingston by Starlight (Three Rivers Press/Crown Publishing) I tell a fictionalized version of the true story of Anne Bonny, a woman who dressed as a man in the early 1700s, became a pirate, and was put on trial for her alleged crimes in 1721.

In my novel I speculate about the ties she might have had to Africans in her family tree. I also weave into my story some true tales of pirates of African heritage.

Pirates were an important, integral part of the international scene during the late 17th and early 18th century. Anyone who took a sea voyage, anyone who sent cargo by boat, anyone who worked on board a floating vessel, had to worry about pirate attacks. Nations employed pirates to prey on the shipping of other nations. Pirates inspired numerous books and plays and songs. Pirates became symbols — not only of living outside the law, but of freedom, bought at a high cost and lived on one's own terms.

It became imperative, then, for the established powers of the European world to conceal the fact that many pirates were in fact people of color. It would have caused havoc if slaves knew that freedom was just offshore, riding the waves, flying a black flag.

Some of these Black pirates were, in part, mythic. The Fomorian pirates, some of the first people to make war on Ireland and to settle some of its lands, were of African descent — they are talked about in the myths and lore of Ireland.

But many other Black pirates were definitely flesh and blood. Kenneth J. Kinkor, a historian with the Whydah Project, which is examining the wreck of a pirate ship, has reported that perhaps 30 percent of the 5,000 or more pirates who were active between 1715 and 1725 were of African heritage.

Some of the most famous pirates in history were either Black or had a significant number of Blacks in their crews. Blackbeard was the most feared pirate of the early 18th century — and 60 of his 100 crewmen were Black. Laurens de Graff was considered the most successful pirate of the 17th century — and he was actually a runaway slave of African heritage. There are many more examples: Captain Kidd's quartermaster was Black, for example, and many pirate bases were located in North Africa.

Some historians have suggested that if there were Blacks on pirate crews, they may have been working as servants or slaves. But pirates tended to defy the traditions of their times, and there are enough examples of Black pirates actually leading pirate ships — like de Graff — to suggest that many Blacks successfully secured freedom, and positions of power and influence, on pirate vessels.

The Black community has often been told by society at large that it is wrong to glorify outlaws. Blues musicians were criticized in their day for flouting society's conventions. Hip-hop performers have been harassed for challenging cultural mores. And yet, in the larger community, renegades and rebels are often put on pedestals, from Robin Hood to Billy the Kid to Eminem.

White pirates, in books such as Treasure Island and movies such as Pirates of the Caribbean, are portrayed not as hateful criminals, but as lovable rogues, capable of cruelty, but also somehow admirable, even lovable. Digital pirates are hunted by corporations and prosecutors, but are embraced as heroes by youth culture. There is often something good to be found in people who are willing to fight the power.

In my novel Kingston by Starlight, I try to reclaim Black history. Pirates were often rogues, yes, but there is something in their willingness and ability to challenge the legal authorities of their time that is worth embracing, even celebrating.

In the 17th and 18th century, many people of African heritage were in bondage. Piracy represented a way out, and a way to challenge the very system that made slavery possible. In Kingston by Starlight, I tell stories of the early days of the Bahamas, and the last days of Port Royal, Jamaica. I write of pirate states in North Africa, and of pirate raids in South America. These are stories that aren't told in the history books in school. These are stories of blood and fire and emotion. This is outlaw history, but it is our history. And it is a history worth remembering.

Kingston by Starlight will be published in July. Frank McCourt, author of the Pulitzer Prize-winning book "Angela's Ashes," called it "superbly poetic," and Essence magazine picked it as one of the three best beach reads of the summer.

By Christopher John Farley, Special to the AmNews

Source: The Black faces beneath black flags, By: Farley, Christopher John, New York Amsterdam News, 00287121, 7/7/2005, Vol. 96, Issue 28

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I'm not certain where to incorporate some of this information. Adraeus 01:43, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Very little of what's there is encyclopedic—the writer expressly says it's fictional and speculative—but maybe some of it could go in the Pirate organization section. The figures would need to be verified. Kenneth Kinkor is a genuine historian [1] and the author, apparently, of Black Men Under the Black Flag but this newspaper article or book promotion or whatever it is isn't a good source. -EDM 07:23, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the writer expresses that his novel is fictional and speculative, in which he includes true tales of pirates with African heritage, which he goes on to describe. Adraeus 01:30, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

So its bad to say that illegal acts are wrong?

--Eno-Etile 08:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Somali piracy

Modern piracy can also be for political reasons. For example, warlords in Somalia have sabotaged the delivery of UN food aid to over half a million hungry people in the region [2].

This may be true (if a bit POV) but it isn't really what the article says. This is the relevant portion of the article:

Piracy off Somalia threatens shipping and has sabotaged the delivery of food aid to more than half a million hungry people in the region, the United Nations said on Thursday. Hijackers have commandeered two vessels used by the U.N. World Food Programme this year and ship owners now demand armed escorts to travel in the waters, the agency said. This week, the London-based International Maritime Bureau said it knew of 27 pirate attacks off Somalia since March. The attacks have highlighted insecurity in Somalia, which has had no government to enforce law and order since warlords ousted dictator Mohamed Siad Barre in 1991.

Piracy off the coast of Somalia is interfering with UN food deliveries, but is there a source confirming that the pirates are acting for political motives as opposed to simply the usual economic ones? -EDM 18:16, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Rewritten as part of a larger rewrite. -EDM 06:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

"Captain Pottengal Mukundan of the ICC's International Maritime Bureau (IMB) - whose organization manages the Piracy Reporting Centre - says the latest attacks raise a number of serious concerns.

'In addition to the obvious threat to human life and potential environmental damage, we are very concerned about politically motivated attacks against vessels.'" [3] I agree that the original quote doesn't directly support political piracy, but piracy can definitely happen for political reasons. Tkessler 21:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The International Maritime Bureau (IMB) has recorded more than 30 attacks on cargo and passenger ships in Somalian waters recorded between Jan and September 2005.

Placement of "Modern Piracy" section

The truth is that modern piracy…is a violent, bloody, ruthless practice…made the more fearsome by the knowledge on the part of the victims that they are on their own and absolutely defenceless and that no help is waiting just round the corner. Captain Jayant Abhyankar, Deputy Director of the International Maritime Bureau

I have first hand knowledge of piracy. The reason I moved modern piracy to the top is because I found it irritating (to say the least) to be searching for info on modern piracy and see all the silly, cartoon pirates. Imagine after being mugged searching for info and finding an article about street crime starting with Robin Hood. Check out William Langewiesche, The Outlaw Sea: A World of Freedom, Chaos, and Crime. As for as the romance angle the people being killed today, ( and probably in the past) are common sailors, many from developing countries. I think it better for someone looking for a picture of a cute pirate to have to go through the modern material first rather then vice-versa. . However there may be a good argument for keeping it the way it was.... Also can anyone locate a picture of a modern pirate? KAM 19:36, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• CNN has this AP picture of the pirates attacking the Seabourn Spirit the other day. Too bad it's copyrighted. -EDM 20:14, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I completely agree that all the cartoon pirates, pirate jokes, etc. ought to be at the end of the article and their content minimized compared to actual information about actual piracy, historical and modern. My thought as expressed in my edit summary was just that it made sense to have historical information first. If I were organizing this article from scratch I'd place the "Modern Piracy" section either immediately before or immediately after the section called "Piracy in International Law." -EDM 19:47, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it would make sense to have some historical info first. I guess I lost it when I saw the cartoon and just hacked away. KAM 19:55, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Reordered as part of a larger rewrite. -EDM 06:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I suggest moving all maritime piracy information to maritime piracy, which I'm working on. Pirate should be about pirates and not necessarily about maritime piracy. Adraeus 04:02, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

That make sense to me. A pirate in popular culture etc could be at pirate and historic and current info about piracy could be at Maritime piracy KAM 15:01, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't agree. The pirate article, as it is now, needs to be cleaned up. The information contained within pirate is embarassingly unlearned and "playful", and some of the information simply doesn't even belong in the article. Pirate should discuss the role of pirates throughout history, which is extensive enough to separate the fictional pirates section to an article named appropriately, like pirates in fiction. Maritime piracy will concern the act of maritime piracy throughout history, not pirates. Adraeus 05:30, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Adraeus and KAM - Why should the main "Pirate" article be turned into a compendium of cartoons, pirate jokes, Ninja crap, and the like? You know that is what will happen if this is broken into two articles as you're suggesting, with the real information about real piracy relegated to an article with a more complicated (= less likely to be searched on) title. Sending everything in the first place to a "piracy" dab page, which would be the only way to avoid that, is cumbersome. Also, would a maritime piracy article exclude information on air piracy? That doesn't seem to make much sense, since the two are essentially the same activity just carried out in different milieus.

I suggest, instead, to rename this page to "Piracy"; expand and improve the treatment of maritime and air piracy, both historic and current; trim the popular culture cartoon stuff back so that information about stereotypical pirate conceptions is there but is reasonably balanced against factual, historical information; be vigilant against efforts to add juvenilia to that section; and fix the Pirate (disambiguation) page accordingly. -EDM 17:09, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

*sigh* If you want to discuss the maritime piracy article, do it here. Otherwise, don't expect attention to premature complaints and answers to newbie questions. Adraeus 05:30, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Huh? -EDM 05:41, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

1. If you had done any research on the subject (or even read the IMO's definition), you would know not to ask if maritime piracy will discuss "air piracy".
2. "Maritime piracy" is the proper professional and academic term used when referring to criminal acts of piracy and armed robbery at sea or in air.
3. Whether maritime piracy receives any direct hits is justifiably unimportant.
4. Disambiguation pages are never "cumbersome". That's why those pages are disambiguation pages! See the definition
5. Only encyclopedic data and information is valid for inclusion in Wikipedia. Invalid data and information should be removed. See Wikipedia:Guide to deletion.
6. There are many articles in Wikipedia that separate the "career" from the "activity". For example, artist versus art. There are many types of pirates, and many histories of those types of pirates, and there's a significant amount of information about the role of pirates in the history. Why is actual encyclopedic information about pirates nearly disregarded in the pirate article? I don't know, and I almost don't care. I haven't volunteered to edit the article. Have you? Adraeus 06:22, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Adraeus 06:22, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh for God's sakes. Get off your high horse. I'm trying to clean up the damn article, as and when I can. -EDM 06:38, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Pirate jokes

Not that anons are likely going to read this talk page before adding more jokes, but if they do ... please, folks, put pirate jokes in the Pirate jokes article, not this one. It's there for just that purpose. -EDM 06:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

ARGH!

ARGH!

earrings

There's apparently no evidence that pirates wore earrings more than anyone else. I put a note about this in, and it seems to have been reverted. Was this done deliberately or accidentally? If the later, I'll fix it again; if the former, could someone explain why? NoahB 20:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

other terms

In the "Other Terms for Pirates" section it has a word in Arabic. Not to be nit-picky, but this is the English article, and while it may be novel to see the word written in Arabic, it's not the slightest bit useful. I'm fine with leaving that there, but an English transliteration would be very much appreciated, and be useful to people other than the tiny minority of Arabic speakers who might read this article for reference. -- Freshyill 03:06, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Transliteration now added. It might be helpful to also do the Arabic script is a slightly larger font, as in its current size it is almost impossible for non-Arabic readers to even identify the letters being used. Once I figure out how to do that, I'll test it out. Su 20:13, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Piracy

A WikiProject has been proposed on List of proposed projects to improve coverage of and focus on both historic and modern periods in Piracy. MadMax 01:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Jokes

I noticed the following had been added to the end of the privateering section:

"There has been a resurgence of privateering in recent years in the Throggs Neck area of New York."

Funny? Yes, but not appropriate. :) --24.47.145.73 06:00, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

River piracy?

Is the term "piracy" applied to riverboat robbery? If yes, then can someone add a small section.

The question popped up in relation to a Russian historical robber, Stenka Razin. An anon editor added him to List of pirates. Traditionally he was not called "pirate" in Russian, simply "robber" (razboinik), so I deleted him from the list. So the second question is whether I was right. `'mikka (t) 18:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Pirate organization

Hello - new Wikipedian here. I would like to clean up the section 'Pirate organization' a bit.

- It doesn't make it clear which time period we are discussing as the 'classical age of piracy': C17th, or later? The section on Caribbean piracy is from 1560 up until the 1720s; but the section on privateers goes up to 1854.

- 'England's imperial reign' is OK for pre-1707, but needs clarification, maybe. 'English empire' comes up with no hits on Wikipedia, the info is listed under 'British Empire'.

- 'English captains were known to have been extremely brutal; the captain held a sort of sovereign power aboard his ship and many were unafraid to abuse that power. It is thought that the service of an English sailor during England's imperial reign is the most inhumane of all wartime duties to date.' Is there evidence that conditions on English warships and merchant vessels in this period were substantially more autocratic and brutal than on French, Dutch etc.? If so, citations please.

- 'The most inhumane of all wartime duties to date' I would like to delete this (it's unprovable), or at least provide a reference for the opinion.

Drafting new version... please let me know if you have comments...

Lindisfarne 18:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't have specific sources to hand, but the first part of the section seems about right for the latter half of the 17th Century. Once we get into the stuff about Imperialism I get a strong feeling that NPOV just got thrown out of the window. And, again, no specific sources, but the author seems to have the normal, and inaccurate, pop-culture images of a seaman's life. For instance, the Naval press gangs in Britain wwere only supposed to impress seamen. (Details of some of this are already in Wikipedia) Zhochaka 22:21, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Ancient Piracy

Why don't you add some info about the Ancient Pirates - the Illyrians pirateered the Roman Adriatic Sea. There was also a fierce Serbian pirateering tribe - Pagania. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:41, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you add some info? garik 23:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Pirates in sports

I think we should remove pirates in high schools and middle school sports, there are probably thousands and thousands and the list will grow to ridiculous proportions. I'm even worried about colleges, I can think of a few just off hand. Thoughts? --Awiseman 00:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

One eye sees better than two?

"Eyepatch wearing also would have been convenient for seeing in poorly lit conditions, and pirates of old may have done this to help see below deck." This is totally beyond me. Any reference to medical fact to support this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by O'Donnell (talk • contribs)

The covered eye would have increased in dark-sensitivity.Minglex 21:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

aye... try it yourself... wear an eyepatch all day, then, after dark, switch which eye the patch is over... I think Bill Nye taught us about that about 20 years ago... ;) - Adolphus79 21:07, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The Mythbusters on Discovery Cannel tested this myth. Mythbusters verdict: CONFIRMED. Nick31091 02:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Excessive Detail

I understand that it's the goal of an encyclopedia to be as impartial and informative as possible, but this article is simply riddled with laughable, unprofessional details. Why is it necessary to include every highschool with a pirate mascot? Clearly there are thousands. Also, is it necessary to reference obscure internet cartoons? Perhaps a new article should be created dealing with "Pirates in Modern Culture". This would make sense, as i dont know of anyone who would read through an encylopedia hoping to find cartoon pirate jokes on the internet...O'Donnell 13:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

It is a very large article. Maybe the lists (Pirates in sports, Pirates in popular culture, etc.) should each be moved to separate list articles. Or maybe they should be dropped altogether. Aardvark92 21:47, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Considering who the main users of Wikipedia are, I think the references to pirates would be one of the key components of this article. They should not be dropped and creating a seperate article is beneficial.

How much does an ear of corn cost in Beloit, WI?

Added the Beloit Buccanneers to the college sports mascots.

International law

Article says "The crime of piracy is considered jus cogens, a conventional peremptory international norm from which states may not derogate." Isn't that backwards? As it currently reads, it says that "piracy is considered a norm" and/or "the crime is considered jus cogens", which is contrary to the definition. I believe it should read "The crime of piracy is considered a breach of jus cogens, a conventional peremptory international norm from which states may not derogate." Derek Balsam 01:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

actual pictures

Are there any pictures of actual real life pirates? sikander 03:43, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Lame Pictures

Some of the pictures on this article are pretty lame. The cartoon one is featured for some reason so I guess it's gunan stay for some reason, but the one of an actor protraying a pirate has got to go. If you must have a picture of an actor, why not one who dresses liek a pirate? I don't recall any pirates wearing white face paint and having cartoon eyes. A picture from Hook or Pirates of the Carribean might be a little more relevant. Reignbow 21:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Done Weird Bird 08:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

the acuracy of this page

this page needs to have a notice saying it needs to be cleaned up, i found many things that were not true such as pirates pierced their ear lobes with rings to supposedly increase vision

Please fix what you think is wrong. --Awiseman 21:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Too much popular culture

I really don't think we need to mention every band, book, movie, story, etc that mentions pirates - there have to be thousands. Maybe a few well-known examples of each? --Awiseman 21:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Or if we're going to have a list at all, make it a separate article. Then this one can stick to information about actual pirates. Aardvark92 15:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure we really need a list article either, really. --Awiseman 16:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Personally I don't really care one way or the other. But since a lot of people seem to want to add their favorite reference, I'm not prepared to just delete them all without an opportunity for discussion.

Which leads to the question: Can someone give a reason they think the whole list of pop culture pirate references is needed? Aardvark92 18:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, I don't think it is. I tagged them all with cleanup. --Awiseman 20:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

That has to be seriously the lamest part of the whole article. Can we get rid of the piratical stereotypes, or at least put it in sentance form. It is like reading a 10 year old's list of bullet points after he watched a pirate movie. It is the most retarded thing I have ever seen on Wikipedia. Nick

I agree with Nick. The pirate stereotypes have no place in a serious article about piracy. I've sent the entire list to Davy Jones' locker. Aardvark92 22:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Moved list of fictional pirates to its own article, per above discussion. Aardvark92 19:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Too many links

Is it really necessary to link so many words? It doesn't help readability.

For example, in this paragraph:

The Latin term pirata, from which the English "pirate" is derived, derives ultimately from Greek peira "attack, attempt", cognate to peril. By the 1st century BC, there were pirate states along the Anatolian coast, threatening the commerce of the Roman Empire.

Latin, English, Greek, Anatolian, and Roman Empire are all HTML links. Is this really necessary?

If it is necessary to link to a definition of so many terms, why aren't commerce, peril, states, ultimately, derives and threatening also linked?

I can understand linking to Anatolian, and to a lesser degree Roman Empire. But wouldn't somebody who didn't know what Latin, Greek or English meant be able to look those up? Somebody reading the English version should at least be able to understand what "English" means without needing a link.

Modern pirates in the Mediterranean Sea

This is noted in the introduction of the article. This seems odd to me, any reference for this? Also wouldn't it be a good idea to include some more pictures in the article (instead of the twice the same Jolly Roger image...), maybe of modern pirates of the coast of western Africa or Strait of Malacca. 217.121.193.200 15:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Has anyone come across any evidence of modern-day piracy in the Mediterranean? If not, this reference should be revised/deleted. lamato 18:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

In popular culture - moved

I'd moved all popular culture references into article of ots own: Pirates in popular culture. This is common strategy to deal with such information and keep the main article focused. For many examples see Category:In popular culture.

The (non-popular-references) external links should be pruned down. Pavel Vozenilek 21:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

pirate homosexuality

There is evidence, still controversial, that some famous pirate bands were in fact homosexuals living free outside normal social constraints. It would make sense to at least mention this somewhere in the article. -- M0llusk 00:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Structure

the ancient piracy stuff didn't belong in the introduction, but rather it's own section, and since everyone will bitch if I dont dicusss it on the talk page, here you go! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dharmabatteries (talk • contribs)

vandels

this was under Commerce raiders

Aaron also likes to look at his mama Aaron likes to look at men. fixed —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.246.213.116 (talk) 22:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Pirate Slang

We should add a little about pirate slang, like how they called cannons guns, what the seven seas were, and what shiver me timbers means and stuff like thatThe Clydelishes Clyde 01:04, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

The difficultee with this is that much supposed pirate lingo was not peculiar to pirates; it was used by sailors generally, and putting it in the pirate article would give a false impression that it was used just by pirates. All three of the examples you gave would have been familiar to all seamen.

Still, there are a few phrases that were used only by pirates, so far as I know. How about "from the seas" (used to describe their origin), "pistol proof" and "soft farewell"? Are those exclusively piratical phrases?

Pirate Dan 13:51, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

VERY difficult assignment. Pirate talk and nautical jargon in general preserves archaic forms from a whole mish-mosh of languages and the etymologies are usually bscure for much of it. Look up Davy Jones's Locker sometime, the origin is actually Celtic from what I can tell, but the dictionary makers can't decide. Hypatea (talk) 23:05, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Aaaaaaaar, the seven seas be callin'! 90.212.113.100 (talk) 03:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Fixing typos

“These Slavs relieved the old Illyrian pirateeering habits and often raided the Adriatic Sea. Already in 642 they invaded southern Italia and assaulted Siponte in Benevento.”

What does “relieved” mean? Should it be “relived”? It still doesn’t sound grammatically correct. I tried to fix this but the page was locked.

“Revived”?

It means to highten the effect of or to relieve someone of a duty.

• "...raids by Muslim pirates forced Venetian Duke of Crete to ask the Venice to keep its fleet on constant guard." Found preceding reference 8, should read as "... raids by Muslim pirates forced the Venetian Duke of Crete to ask Venice to keep its fleet on constant guard." WLMorgan (talk) 04:16, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

feel free to be bold and fix it yourself... - Adolphus79 (talk) 04:19, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Is Software Piracy the more applicable default term these days?

I came here looking specifically for information on what many call 'software piracy' and how it's related to, but not necessarily the same thing as 'copyright infringement'.

Seems that these days, people looking up 'piracy' are likeing coming from the context of software or the RIAA moreso that swashbucklers. Perhaps this should be made more clear at the top of the article: Looking for SOFTWARE PIRACY?...

156.98.171.81 23:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)darrel 01/03/2007

Software piracy is a biased/disputed term, and not the legal name for the activity. The Piracy disambig should be enough. falsedef 06:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Why do movies glamourize Pirates and make them seem not as dangerous as they really are? Movies put it in a child's head that Pirates are cool and not the dangerous criminals they really are in our world today. 12/05/2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.70.105.48 (talk) 04:10, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Treasure maps

Over at the Treasure map article, I have been working hard to expand it. Several reliable references claim that no pirate treasure maps exist, but I'm not so sure anymore. I don't know how closely watched the article is, but it seems like an important one. While that article is shaping up to not focus solely on pirate treasure maps, those really seem to be where most of the interest lies. Do any pirate aficionados know of any real cases of pirate treasure maps? The Captain Kidd map and other maps about Oak Island come to mind, but it's hard to cut through the garbage and know what is real, and what is bogus. Some of the new information on the Treasure map article might also do well in the main pirate article. PMHauge 04:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

All historians I've seen who have commented on the subject say there are no pirate treasure maps. Now, pirates were illogical sometimes, but they weren't about to take all the treasure that they've worked so hard for and go onto a barren island and sail away! They'd immediately demand a share of the treasure so they could go off to the taverns and brothels and have a good time for a bit! Then, when they ran out of money, they'd set sail again to go steal more. (Nick31091 03:23, 19 June 2007 (UTC))

I've found evidence of a few pirates burying their treasure, but no evidence at all that they then made maps to it. It is unknown whether Kidd, Blackbeard, Low, or Rackham made maps to their buried treasure, or if they just buried it at a memorable landmark that they knew they could find again. Incidentally, while there may be something buried at Oak Island, there's no real reason to believe that pirates did it. Pirate Dan 16:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Aaaaaar, I knows where 'bouts zum treasure be 'idden! Follow me on, yon blackhearted seadogs! 90.212.113.100 (talk) 03:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Etymology

Where does this article get its etymology of the word "pirate"? Online Etymology Dictionary derives it quite differently, but from the same Greek root. According to that site, peirates is from the verb peiran, meaning to attack. That makes a LOT more sense than the explanation given here. Chalkieperfect 00:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Cite your source and add the information to the article. It sounds good to me. PMHauge 15:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Um... They're both right: the etymology is just longer than either accounts for, and includes both steps. Peiran ('to attack)' is itself derived from peira ('trial, attempt, endeavour'). Classical Latin Pirata is derived from Hellenistic Greek Pirates, which is derived from peiran. The whole 'finding luck on the sea' bit is wrong though. 'Peiran' has nothing particularly sea-based about it, it's via 'trying your luck' or 'making an attempt on' in any context. Or so says the OED, and I always believe the OED. It is important to remember that sense has nothing to do with etymology, and that judging the validity of derivations on the grounds of sense almost inevitably leads us into error.

Please add the link to Ido Wikipedia

io:Pirateso Thank you, João Xavier, user of Ido Wikipedia.

I do Wikipedia whenever i can because she satisfies me <3

Consolidate etymology information from introduction and "Etymology" section

I'm not familiar with the conventions for this, but etymology information now appears both in the introduction and in its own section. Should they be consolidated? Dan Zollman (talk) 05:46, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

You are right, I removed etymology from intro. A Macedonian (talk) 10:46, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

POV because of missing references

Because we are missing references this article reads more like a historic story and can be seen as a possible POV. Try working on more sources. --CyclePat 20:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Origin of "freebooter"

My Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (10th ed.) supports the current article's derivation of freebooter from Dutch "vrijbuiter," meaning a taker of free booty. However, Angus Konstam's Pirates: 1660-1730 says that the term derives from "fly-boat" (French flibotes), a popular vessel of French pirates and privateers.

Is there a consensus on this point? Or should we include both etymologies in the article? --Pirate Dan 13:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, OED again. It suggests that the origin of freebooter is definitely in the Dutch 'vrijbuiter', the earliest known usage being 'frebetters.' 'Flibotes' is itself seperately derived from the dutch 'vlieboot'. Comparison of 'freeboot' and 'flibote' may however have influenced the formation of 'filibuster', primarily derived from 'vrijbuiter,' moving via the form 'flibutor', of which only a single example survives. Then again, it may not have, 'filibuster' may come direct from the Dutch, and 'flibutor' may be a dead-end. With words, who can tell? P.S.: The OED is way better than Miriam Webster. I love the OED.

History of Piracy : Piracy in the Caribbean

Sorry, to sound odd, but to me it seems that the following part really doesn't fit in this section, and is more just an attempt to laud a local hero/legend. I just didn't feel comfortable outright deleting it, tho. The portion I am refering to I have copied below:

One of the later famous pirates of the Caribbean was Roberto Cofresí Ramirez de Arellano (1791-1825). He was put to death for his crimes in Puerto Rico at the Castle of San Felipe del Morro. His romantic legend inspires plays and songs on the island.

Thanach 14:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Roberto Cofresi is definitely not famous enough to be worthy of special mention; the number of people who've heard of him outside Puerto Rico can probably be counted on one finger. As opposed to Blackbeard, La Salle, Black Bart, Henry Morgan, etc.

--Ivantheshifty 09:22, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

piracy in the carribean

I was looking for information on contemporary piracy in the carribean. Although pirates are not as prevalent in the carribean as around the malacca straits they do exist and are a problem. They tend to target privately craft rather than commercial vessels. Can anyone tell me any more? I am doing a dissertation on piracy and terrorism and could eventually contribute something to this article I guess. scruffylonghairedguy@gmail.com 82.39.97.202 21:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Vikings

I was wondering if vikings should be included as pirates. Obviously they plundered Europe, but they often did so under the authority of the Scandinavian nobles. Any thoughts? 200.82.223.63 05:22, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd say no. You answered your own question - they had authority. 19:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC)Surfbruddah —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.188.247.6 (talk)

Did they have authority? Can there be such thing as authority to plunder when there is no 'real' authority? In that case the Pirates who lived in the carribean weren't pirates either. Based on the definition of pirate given in the article ("Piracy is a robbery committed at sea, or sometimes on the shore, by an agent without a commission from a sovereign nation) I'd say some Vikings were pirates too. Obviously not all vikings, especially not towards the end of the vikingage, but then again, not all 'seerobbers' in the americas in the 17th century were pirates either. I say Include! Krastain (talk) 15:10, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, I believe, refers to them as pirates - although I do not know what the word is in Old English Streona (talk) 15:41, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The idea of official sanction for pirates is what was called the Letter of Marque. This was a license to pirate the vessels and marine interests of enemy states. So what was a pirate in France may have been a freedom fighter in England. It all depends on POV so the whole article is not NPOV. Excluding all the pirates with official or semi-official sanction/toleration, you then have the problem of the pirate republics (Madagascar etc.). If the argument is the pirates didn't have the authority to proclaim states, then you have to ask on what authority the United States were constituted. Hypatea (talk) 23:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Pirate Flags

I found a site that shows the "mythtory" of pirate flags, and the ones the actual pirates used. Maybe we should change some of the wikipedia articles? BonaAdenture.org.uk Wobblies 12:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Life as a pirate

"Unlike traditional Western societies of the time, many pirate clans operated as limited democracies, demanding the right to elect and replace their leaders."

Why pick on Western societies? I suspect the comment applies to pretty much every society of the time (the "classical period" of piracy).

True, but the point is that western-world pirates created a different kind of society shipboard from the one they came from. On the other hand, Chinese and Indian pirates didn't practice democracy on their ships (at least so far as I've found), so they didn't have the same contrast with the societies they originated from.

In other words, in the West life as a pirate was far more democratic than life under the law. In the East, life as a pirate was just as undemocratic as law-abiding life. Pirate Dan 15:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The sections "Life as a pirate" and "Brain Damage" are entirely uncited twaddle and generally violate the NPOV policy. Does anyone mind if I remove them or savagely edit them? --Ossipewsk (talk) 23:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The "Brain Damage" section is wild, incredibly unlikely speculation unsupported by any proof. The rational of bad food being a reason for alcoholism is just unfounded nonsense. I pulled the section out. Oooops! It's back. Someone is defending it for no good reason. Oh well, I'm not going to waste more time on it. Let those dumb enough to believe it go ahead and believe it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.26.52.125 (talk) 05:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

"To fill the warships, officers would forcibly pressgang boys and young men to replace lost crew." - not sure what to edit exactly, but that makes it sound like pressganging was the only way crew were replaced, which it certainly wasn't, and isn't "forcibly" redundant if you say they are pressganged anyway? Auto98uk (talk) 12:43, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Not all pressganging was forcible. Just as often, pressgangs would try to bribe potential recruits with higher wages. Or just get them to sign a contract while drunk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.56.61.70 (talk) 19:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

• For further info see Shanghaiing :) --The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

piracy in North America

I edited the comment that read as follows

"While boats off the coasts of North America and the Mediterranean Sea are still assailed by pirates, the Royal Navy and the U.S. Coast Guard have nearly eradicated piracy in U.S. waters and the Caribbean Sea."

to read

"While boats off the coasts of North Africa and the Mediterranean Sea are still assailed by pirates, the Royal Navy and the U.S. Coast Guard have nearly eradicated piracy in U.S. waters and the Caribbean Sea."

the statement conflicted itself and was not accurate. 84.254.189.64 04:00, 13 July 2007 (UTC) too lazy to register

Shouldn't both sides of pirate life be added then instead of solely focusing in western pirate life? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.170.206.20 (talk) 11:46, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Requested merge

Merge with Maritime piracy.This article seems does not even seem to have so much as a footnote as to the controversy of the terminology of "piracy", and it goes far beyond the recent usage as a synonym for copyright infringement.historical usage has meant various types of thievery, and the act itself in general,even during the golden age of piracy, and some word origins don't even mention anything about the sea. Rodrigue 18:52, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Merge with Maritime piracy.According to several websites [4] [5], there are various origins for the term, and not all include the concept of the sea. 64.229.200.174 19:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Oppose Even though this has been closed, I disagree. The main deffintion of the word Piracy, as those websites 64.229.200.174 posted state, is in regards to Piracy on the sea. All of the other types of piracy have their own article. I don't believe someone looking for say, Pirate radio would be searching Piracy. If for some reason they do, there is a link at the top of the page to the disambiguation page. Also, one vote by a user who has never edited before cannot be considered a consensus. I am also going to be placing a link at the top that proposes this page be moved back to Piracy. Deflagro ^Contribs/_Talk 21:26, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Also one other thing. I just glanced at the "What links here" for the Piracy page. There is about 1500 pages that link to Piracy. When you merge you are supposed to redirect all of those links to the new page. Seeing as how you never completed the merger and it would be a huge pain to fix all the links. I propose we move the page back. Deflagro ^Contribs/_Talk 21:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

Maritime Piracy → Piracy — I don't think a consensus was reached on the Merger —Deflagro ^Contribs/_Talk 21:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

There was not a consensus to move. At all. There already is an article at Maritime piracy so moving this to Maritime Piracy is just broken. I've restored it. That "piracy" existed for so long as just a redirect after this broken move indicates there isn't some more important meaning of "piracy" that people think of. SchmuckyTheCat

Endorse Schmucky's reversal. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

East Asia is not South East Asia

Piracy in East Asia

Main article: Wokou

From the 13th century, Japan based Wokou made their debut in East Asia, initiating invasions that would persist for 300 years.

Piracy in South East Asia began with the retreating Mongol Yuan fleet after the betrayal by their Sri Vijayan allies in the war with Majapahit. They preferred the junk, a ship using a more robust sail layout. Marooned navy officers, consisting mostly of Cantonese and Hokkien tribesmen, set up their small gangs near river estuaries, mainly to protect themselves. They recruited locals as common foot-soldiers known as 'lang' (lanun) to set up their fortresses. They survived by utilizing their well trained pugilists, as well as marine and navigation skills, mostly along Sumatran and Javanese estuaries. Their strength and ferocity coincided with the impending trade growth of the maritime silk and spice routes.

However, the most powerful pirate fleets of East Asia were those of Chinese pirates during the mid-Qing dynasty. bla bla bla bla bla...

I don't know a lot about the history of Piracy in S.E. Asian but I know that

1. pirates in S.E. Asian was indeed existed (and still exist until know)

I don't know whether the South East pirates started to be exist since failed attempt of Kubilai Khan's attack or it has been existed before that time. Hence, the claim need verifiable source. Put in mind that before Kubilai Khan's envoy came to Java in 1293, kingdoms in Nusantara's Archipelago (Makassar, Singhasari, Srivijaya) has set a lot of sea expedition. I might be wrong but I still insist demanding the source of the quoted statement.

The oldest record for maritime piracy in South East Asian, I think, was Zheng He's record when he was in Palembang.

2. While the first paragraph (well, actually the second paragraph) of the section talked about South East Asian Pirates while the rest of the section talked about East Asian Pirates. They were different and unrelated (or minor related).

Hence, the existence of S.E pirates in Piracy in East Asia is meaningless, misleading, unrelated. I proposed two solution :

1. remove the South East Asian paragraph and move it to different section. I see no relation between Wokou and South East Asian pirates.

The record of Piracy in South East Asian prior to 20th centuries are few (There are Zheng He's report and also Dutch report). However, in late 90s till now, the record of piracy has increased and it lead to some agreement between Indonesia, Malaysia, and Singapore such as joint patrol. [6][7][8]

2. combine the section into "Piracy in East and South East Asia".

I prefer the first one. Separating the section. Kunderemp 18:52, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, I found some issues with the Qing Period piracy information. Mainly, Zheng Yi did not inherit the fleet of his (very) distant cousin Zeng Qi. Rather, he built up his own fleet after returning from fighting in the Tay Son rebellion, and in 1805 he, along with 6 other pirates, signed an agreement creating a pirate coallition. He was not in charge of all of these fleets, just his Red Flag Fleet, but after his death, his wife Zheng Yi Sao seized control of the entire coallition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.14.35.167 (talk) 19:18, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Estimated worldwide losses of US $13 to $16 billion per year?

I am not aware of any statistically significant analysis of the estimated losses attributed to piracy a year. I have seen wild estimates like that made in the cited Foreign Affairs article that are usually attributed to private security companies trying to scare customers into purchasing their services. I would request this estimate be removed until statistically significant proof can be cited. PirateHunter 15:50, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree it is very high and for this reason I cannt see why it is written on the pirate wiki that they have almost wiped out pirating, when in fact it is currently on the increase, with 24 ships pirated off of somalia in a 4 month period, opposed to the 44 over 12 months of the last year. Dosedmonkey —Preceding comment was added at 23:11, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Walking the plank?

Am I the only one that thinks it's odd that when it mentions walking the plank in this page, it claims it's a construct created by J M Barrie's Peter Pan, and yet when you click on the link to "walk the plank" it gives historical accounts of it dating back to the 18th century? Only one of these can be right. Either JM Barrie made it up for Peter Pan, or it's historically accurate. 207.68.250.128 23:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Valid point. Barrie made plank walking appear much more popular with pirates than it ever actually was, but it did happen on occasion historically, so I've changed it. Pirate Dan 15:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Jolly Roger

I removed the statement from the introduction that the Jolly ROger of the movies is the Calico Jack flag. The statement was inaccurate for several reasons.

1. There is no uniformity among Jolly Rogers shown in the movies.

2. The so-called Calico Jack flag is not the Jolly Roger most often shown in the movies; Calico Jack's putative Jolly Roger was a skull with crossed swords, but a skull with crossed bones appears more often in the movies. The crossed swords became cinematically popular only in the 1990s, with Cutthroat Island, with the theme continued into the 2000s by the Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy.

3. There is no primary source evidence that the historical Calico Jack Rackham ever actually flew a skull with crossed swords flag. The design attributed to him appears only in secondary sources.

Pirate Dan 14:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I saw that a couple days ago, it was added in by either an IP or a brand-new account. I thought I reverted it, but I was in a hurry so I guess I didn't. Thanks again! Deflagro ^C/_T 21:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge Golden Age of Piracy into here

The article Golden Age of Piracy consists of few paragraphs of history (that would fit into the Caribbean section of this one) plus a half dozen names. Seems to have little of significance that couldn't easily be squeezed in here. Hult041956 00:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I am mainly neutral but with a slight disagreement because I believe that the article could be expanded into a larger article. Deflagro ^C/_T 22:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean Golden Age could be expanded? I suppose it could. As it stands now, it just seems redundant compared to this ("Piracy") article's "in the Caribbean" section and it's famous pirates list. Hult041956 01:48, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I think Golden Age of Piracy could definitely be expanded a great deal, as it's definitely a valid topic for its own article, and will try and do so over the next few months. I would say "no" to a merge. Neil ☎ 14:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'll yield. Thanks for hearing me out. Hult041956 17:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

How about the other merge tag?

Another merge tag (this one from Maritime piracy) has been on this article since February. That article is almost a stub/definition and just points back to this one in its See Also section. Any interest in fixing that situation? Hult041956 18:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

No it hasn't. I knew that was added recently so I check the history. It was added October 30. Agree I think it should be merged into here. Deflagro ^C/_T 21:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Oops, my mistake. Yes, in fact it was I who added the tag to this article on October 30. Sorry for the misstatement. What I meant to say is that Maritime piracy has been tagged since February. I came across that article while scanning through an "Articles to be merged" category. So, to be crystal clear... my proposal is to merge in (and redirect) Maritime piracy to Piracy. Anyone else? Hult041956 17:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Please write what area you are fromAshleydhs (talk) 18:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC) Ashley

I performed the complete merge of the stub, Maritime piracy, into this article, Piracy. I saw no objection here to doing so. (Note this is 'not about "Golden age". That merge suggestion was settled just above.) Hult041956 (talk) 23:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Deflagro ^C/_T 00:57, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Maritime piracy is back (the redirect reverted), as the original author of two years ago wishes to keep it. Hult041956 (talk) 02:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I commented on the author's talk page. You did the right thing by talking to him. I think the only thing we can do now is maybe request for comment, or wait for his reply. Deflagro ^C/_T 03:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow...I just realized how much that sounds like I'm talking down to you....Sorry, didn't mean for it to sound like that! Deflagro ^C/_T 03:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Headline text

hi no one knows me but i am doing a inquiry on piratres and i was woundering if you could give me some informationon on pirates like what makes them real,how are they real,are they even real no affents but i realy need this information like as soon as you can give it to me so my qwestion here is are pirates real if they are can you tell my what makes them real

Hi, we would know you if you signed your post with four ~ characters after your edit :-) No offense,but you can get the answer to your questions by reading the article - which is the beauty of an encyclopedia Good Skoda (talk) 21:11, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

The Barrel

As vandal-like my edits may seem to piracy about the barrel. It turns out that it is a true occurance. My English teacher first told my class about the barrel and now I looked up the saying "your turn in the barrel" and it turned out that it is legitimate. I hope you switch back my edit because it is the strange, but verifiable, truth.Moose4545 (talk) 15:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Verifiable? Then source it. Please see WP:V and WP:RS as to why. Gscshoyru (talk) 16:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

And please... how about a source other than your English teacher? Hult041956 (talk) 19:08, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Horuk Barbarossa

I was looking at the Famous historical pirates/privateers, and I noticed that Horuk Barborossa wasn't in here. I read about him in this one book about piracy and he seemed to be a pretty famous pirate (desserving enough to have his own chapter). Please take him into consideration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.232.249 (talk) 01:09, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean Oruç Reis (also called Barbarossa). Barbarossa is Italian for Redbeard. I'm not sure why he is not on that list. In fact I'm not sure why that list is there in the first place... Deflagro ^C/_T 16:37, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

No, this guy was Muslim not Italian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.232.249 (talk) 05:34, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Oruc was Muslim. That's Barbarossa was the name the Italians gave him. Barbarossa just means Redbeard. Deflagro ^C/_T 21:54, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Guess thats the guy. Maybe my book has the english spelling of his name.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.85.232.249 (talk • contribs) 02:11, December 24, 2007

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the deletion of Famous historical pirates/privateers. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the consensus was to delete the section Deflagro ^C/_T

Deletion: Famous historical pirates/privateers

I think this section should be deleted. It is often a target of vandalism (IPs adding their own names, etc), it's getting longer with non-famouse people on it (I think soon enough there will be every pirate article on Wikipedia in it), and there is already a list on {{Pirates}} at the bottom of the page. So there isn't really a point for the section, and it's becoming more trouble then it helps. (I'm not talking about List of Fictional Pirates). Thanks! Deflagro ^C/_T 16:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. At what point do we say pirates are "famous"? shas^Yarr!/_T|C 15:46, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• I agree, sometimes it is hard to determine who is a famous pirate and who is not. Besides we already have a List of pirates which should cover all. Tony the Marine (talk) 01:14, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

• Delete - I concur with the Deflagro and shas; there is no need for this particular section. And in addition to the list of pirates, which should suffic, we also have a list of the best-known pirates on the WP:Piracy template/box at the bottom of the page. I suggest we delete it immediately because I have seen people adding random pirates to the list (pirates that I haven't entirely heard of - maybe mentioned in passing). Again, I say immediate removal. BlackPearl14^{Pirate Lord-ess} 02:00, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I fixed the ordering of the messages into the order they were posted. I guess that counts as consensus. I will make the changes then. Thanks everyone! Deflagro ^C/_T 03:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't care bout the section but removing Cofresi was inappropiate, he may not be known in the US but in the Caribbean he is the most well know pirate in terms of cultural impact, known by all of Cuba, the Dominican Republic and Puerto Rico as well as in the lesser islands. 24.138.199.167 (talk) 09:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't remove him, it doesn't matter now though. Also, he is on the template at the bottom. Deflagro ^C/_T 22:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Francis Drake

Drake should not be under the famous pirates, beacuse he was a knight in the name of Queen Elizabeth and was a priviteer for England. Also he served as Vice admiral to the Royal Navy. Only the spanish concedered him as a pirate, but by your vague diffintion of piracy he is in fact not a pirate.

--Crayonman (talk) 02:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Privateers is a type of piracy only with a pardon. But lo! You have realized the fallacy with the List of Famous Pirates, hence why right above your comment is a discussion to delete the whole thing. Why not vote? (and also, I checked and our "vague" definition of piracy is longer than several main dictionaries I just checked. Deflagro ^C/_T 03:02, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

please see my comments under Vikings. Hypatea (talk) 23:07, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Is Barbarossa a Pirate, strictly speaking?

My reading of the Wiki article on Barbarossa leads me to understand that he was essentially a military general, an admiral of a large maritime military force which was essentially unparalelled in ITs time in the Mediterrannean.... the conquering of islands and coastal cities by his fleet was consistently under the auspices of official "green lights" from the Ottoman regime, and was even viewed as a liberation and saving grace by Muslims under the thrall of Spain.... i would edit the Piracy article to indicate that Barbarossa was not marauding for the sake of looting and riches, but i am not allowed to edit IT at this time, so i am hoping that someone reading this with the power to do so will edit in a short aside in the "Corsairs" and "Barbary Pirates" sections to indicate the specific nature of Barbarossa's military actions.... Thank you!

• • • • Nolan McFadden, itrocksmyworld@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.218.87.74 (talk) 05:22, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

A privateer is basically a pirate with a letter of marquee from the government sanctioning what they do. He still wanted money and treasure, but he was approved by the Ottoman Empire. You might want to take a look at privateer, corsair, and Barbary pirates. Hope this help explains some! Deflagro ^C/_T 14:50, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Photos: Modern Pirates of the South China Sea

Eric Pasquier has forty photographs of modern pirates of the South China Sea. Several of his photos were showcased in the May 2000 article Crime Waves by Nick Ryan for the Royal Geographical Society's Geographical magazine. Perhaps someone might be interested in using one of these photos in the article? Contact Eric Pasquier for permission. Adraeus (talk) 02:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Those are really good. I sent him an email asking permission and included the permission template from Wikimedia Commons. Hopefully he will let us! Deflagro ^C/_T 00:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Women Pirates

Lady pirates are the fiered. THEY RULE!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.69.71.63 (talk) 18:17, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Aaaaaaar! That be true, Jimbo lad! By Neptune's beard you have the heart of a swarthy sea knave! 90.205.92.121 (talk) 03:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Changed an ambiguous sentence

"Pirates sometimes evade pursuers by sailing into waters controlled by their enemies."

Now, that sounded ambiguous to me, even though the meaning was clear: pirates will escape into the coastal waters of their pursuer's enemy, thereby preventing the pursuers from catching them. However, it could be misread as thought it were saying pirates would flee into coastal waters controlled by THEIR enemies, which obviously makes no logical sense.

Therefore, I changed the above sentence in the article to:

"Pirates sometimes evade capture by sailing into waters controlled by their pursuer's enemies."

I think that will clear up any possible misinterpretations, and I can't imagine why it ought to be reverted in any way. I just couldn't help but change it.

Thanks.

68.43.93.253 (talk) 04:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC) Rex Reinhard

Thanks for fixing that! Deflagro ^C/_T 21:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Shiver me timbers

Did pirates ever really use this catchphrase? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.212.113.110 (talk) 20:29, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I think not - this is just modern perception and modern vision of piracy. The Adventuress^BlackPearl14 01:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, yes. Although the phrase has been romanticized, its use was rather standard during the golden age of piracy - but not just by pirates. In the middle ages, the term 'shiver' was understood to be a 'splinter' of wood and the act of 'shivering' was 'to break or split into fragments'. Obviously, timbers refer to the wooden ribs in a ship's frame (even today). The phrase 'shiver(ing) me(my) timbers' was actually proper english at the time and would not only have been employed by English pirates and/or their victims, but in regular naval warfare (among english-speaking participants).
--K10wnsta (talk) 22:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Mediterranean

"While boats off the coasts of North Africa and the Mediterranean Sea are still assailed by pirates, the Royal Navy and the U.S. Coast Guard have nearly eradicated piracy in U.S. waters and in the Caribbean Sea." --- no citation !!

This seems to be POV (some Royal Navy/ US coast guard afficionado ?) and needs an edit. Though cases of yacht piracy have been reported in the Mediterrenean (there is no other form of piracy in these waters), this particular form of piracy seems to be much more of a problem in the Caribbean.

http://www.sailingahead.com/vacations/high-risk-piracy.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.171.168.80 (talk) 14:31, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Piracy in popular fiction

I have a problem with the following statement. "Due to modern piracy's status as basically robbery mixed with violence, filmmakers do not commonly depict modern pirates in movies (with Piraty XX veka, Six Days Seven Nights, and The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou being rare exceptions)."

This seems to be an assumption with no citation. Piracy has always been robbery mixed with violence so why is modern piracy any different than piracy during the "Golden age of piracy" in regards to being depicted in film. I am going to remove it if no one objects. Azn Clayjar (talk) 14:49, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you. No objection ;) I think that the writer of that particular fragment just didn't voice his intention clearly. BlackPearl14^talkies! 00:23, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

List of Famous Pirates

I added Chevalier de Grammont to the list of famous pirates, but there does not seem to be an article about him on Wikipedia. If I get a chance, I'll have to do some research on him and create an article, as he was a pretty important player among Caribbean pirates. PirateJohn (talk) 07:20, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

He may have been important, but I don't think he was quite as famous as the others. ...? BlackPearl14^{[talkies!•contribs!]} 00:30, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

HEY- JACK SPARROW IS A FICTIONAL CHARACTER- NOT A HISTORICAL PIRATE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.67.187.103 (talk) 17:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Sub-article

It might make sense that there should be a separate article for modern piracy, it seems that, especially the "recent incidents" section, is getting long. zafiroblue05 | Talk 21:45, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Pirates!

Hello. I am from the city of Payette, ID, and i am in the school of which our theme is pirates. sincerely, C.R.

Um, that's great... ;) BlackPearl14^{[talkies!•contribs!]} 20:57, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Sexual Assault Not Mentioned?

I've heard that rape (along with the other crimes listed in this article) was one of the crimes committed by pirates during the exodus of south vietnamese during the Vietnam war. To quote the article Boat people, "There were untold miseries, rapes and murders on the South China Sea committed by Thai pirates who preyed on the refugees who had sold all their possessions and carried gold with them on the trips." It might be in the article, but I skimmed/searched and I saw nothing about it. It's not that I want to be a downer, but I think it deserves lipservice out of a sign of respect for victims. Does anyone have an opinion on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.103.13.145 (talk) 08:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Category for pirate ships

We have Category:Privateer ships, which I am not sure is inclusive of all pirate's ships. Further, perhaps we could use a category for ships targeted and captured by the pirates, but necessarily used by them for further piracy? Ex. the MV Sirius Star from current news.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

A pirate group's 'Mother Ship' sunk down by a Indian Navy ship.(INS)

On 19 November 2008, the Indian Navy reported that this time she had come under attack from pirates. In reaction the INS Tabar crew then requested the pirate vessel stop to allow a search, but the pirates responded with a threat to sink the INS Tabar if it came any closer. The pirates then opened fire on the INS Tabar and the Indians consequently responded in like measure. After the retaliatory strike, it was reported that a large explosion occurred on the pirate vessel, rumoured to be a result of the pirates' arms cache. As the attack continued for about three-four more hours, the successful retaliation resulted in the sinking of the pirate's "mother ship." The INS Tabar also forced the abandonment of another pirate vessel, while several pirates managed to escape via a speedboat under the cover of darkness.[5] Recalling the incident to media persons, an Indian naval spokesman, Commander Nirad Sinha, said that the "INS Tabar encountered a pirate vessel south west of Oman with two speedboats in tow. This vessel was similar in description to the 'mother vessel' mentioned in various piracy bulletins. INS Tabar closed in on the vessel and asked her to stop for investigation. Pirates were seen roaming on the upper deck of the vessel with guns and rocket propelled grenade launchers. The vessel continued threatening calls and subsequently fired upon INS Tabar."[6][7][8]

From November 2 - 19, Indian naval operations in the area, led by the INS Tabar successfully escorted approximately 35 ships, including many non-Indian flagged vessels, safely during the transit through these pirate-infested waters.

Whoever is the maker of this page, please put this in recent incidents. This is the latest incident. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.200.96.6 (talk) 06:35, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

"Foreign nonstate actor"

In the intro, I changed "foreign nonstate actor" to "nonstate actor." Piracy can definitely be committed by someone not a foreigner: Stede Bonnet's and Blackbeard's crew were convicted of piracy for robbing their fellow British subjects, so they weren't "foreign" actors in relation to their victims. 13:55, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Law of Piracy Section

I think the part of this article regarding the law of piracy could be added to, and I have a couple of books and a lot of articles on this subject. But one of the sources I'd want to cite would be something I wrote. I read through the conflict of interest section, and it said to announce that you might have a conflict of interest. I guess this is not necessarily a conflict of interest, I just don't want it to look like I'm secretly adding references to my own work. So just a heads up. I may start expanding that section rapidly over this coming weekend. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.32.196.236 (talk) 02:44, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Vessel boarding protection

Perhaps it can be mentioned that vessels can protect themselves against piracy by implementing Vessel boarding protection the systems (hot water wall, electricity-charged water wall) eg from secure marine can be mentioned. In addition, robotic or remote-controlled USV's are also sometimes used.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.66.48.4 (talk) 08:20, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

External Links

I think the external links section needs cleaning-up. It has good links from credited sources but what about the mariner's points of view. There are excellent maritime blogs like EagleSpeak that give daily reports on piracy and a few professional mariner forums that have discussions by ship captains on maritime security. gCaptain.com comes to mind but it's mostly gives the American perspective and there are a few others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.148.52.55 (talk) 06:56, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Pirate ship (ride)

"Pirate ship" redirects here. Should there be a link to Pirate ship (ride) at the top of this article, or should "Pirate ship" redirect to "Pirate ship (ride)" and there be a link to this article at the top of that page? 86.141.120.18 (talk) 09:38, 2 September 2009 (UTC)