Talk:Piccolo trumpet

Fourth valve

the only thing i find a little weird is that the trumpet has 4 vaulves instead of 3. My question is it hard to learn to play when you already play the trumpet, ive been playing for four years now but i would like to see the piccolo trumpet and learn to play it but is it harder? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.123.131.2 (talk • contribs)

The fourth valve is mostly for the low notes that would otherwise be out of range.--Dbolton 23:31, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The fourth valve is also used for alternate fingerings for intonation and timbre purposes. Overall, learning that fourth valve is no big deal.Eggness 08:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

It is quite natural to use the fourth valve when playing a low "f" as you will not be able to play the note otherwise!!!! Regards "Scott LaFata"

Well, 70.123.131.2, I haven't had my piccolo for very long yet. But so far, it has been a delight to learn, having played Bb trumpet for many years. Because of the smaller piping, I find I have to blow much harder in the piccolo to produce sound. Having different leadpipes is incredibly useful. Compared to a Bb trumpet, it is definitely harder to play, but well worth it. The fingerings are no problem at all. On a Bb trumpet, the chromatic scale from F# below middle C to high C, is identical to the piccolo's F# below high C to double high C fingering. (Above that is a matter of chops, not fingering.) Going down from F# is a matter of goofing around for a few minutes to figure out which ones work. I haven't figured out how to play middle C in tune yet, on the piccolo. There seems to be a complete octave of "pedal tones" below that (no semi tones?) that sound really awful in terms of tonal quality. Should this page have a range chart similar to the one over on Trumpet? A piccolo fingering chart (like the one on Trumpet might help, too.) --Connel MacKenzie - wikt 04:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Hardenberger range

From main article: "A popular term to emerge among trumpet players is "Hardenberger Range". It generally refers to anything above a C on piccolo trumpet."

The phrase "Hardenberger Range", is not a widely used term amongst trumpet players, due to a recent poll results indicate that 90% have never even heard of the phrase used in this way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hardenberger (talk • contribs)

Hardenberger Range?!? Are you sure that the number of people who haven't heard of that term isn't closer to 100%? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.160.64.16 (talk • contribs)

I removed the statement from the main article. Any further discussion can take place on the discussion page (this page).--Dbolton 20:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to assume that's supposed to say Brandenburg. In either case the term has never crossed my ears, or eyes. Eggness 08:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

It's fifteen years ago, but I wonder if this was some reference to Swedish trumpet virtuoso Håkan Hardenberger?—Jon (talk) 04:13, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Sources

Shouldn't this article have some references other than another Wikipedia article? Otherwise, this is just an extra page with the same information as the main trumpet page. Daduke104 (talk) 03:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)Daduke104

Correct. Indeed, some people thought the existence of this article was pointless and it should just remain part of trumpet but they were out-somethinged. :) Nomorenonotnever (talk) 22:55, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

external links

The Maurice Andre site has some nice pics and video, but is very badly written (indecipherable grammar, gushing fandom). The other site listed is basically advice on shopping for piccolo trumpets. They both have some redeeming value, but there are WP:NOT issues here. - Special-T (talk) 13:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I quite like the Gearhead page, feeling that it is more of a general survey of a wide range of instruments - that is, not just a buyer's guide but a load of useful extra info on the topic and still worth linking to. I think I am more with you on the Andre page. Nomorenonotnever (talk) 21:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I still think the Andre site is not that useful, but that and the geocities site that was removed (also questionable) have been re-inserted and I don't care to get involved in an edit war. - Special-T (talk) 12:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I am in favor of removing the sites as well. If there is no opposition I will remove the links in a week.--Dbolton (talk) 00:50, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

---

Who never heard about Maurice ANDRE can be forgiven. But who knows him cannot ignore the fact he's the father of the modern piccolo trumpet (as written in his website). If not Maurice ANDRE, who else ? David Mason ? By the way, european people have another vision of History. We do not consider Penny Lane (and the genius David Mason) as a reference in the history of piccolo trumpet repertoire. Viviani, Loeillet, Bach or Telemann are, to our mind, more important than Mr Paul McCartney (who is obviously also a genius). Therefore, it is very difficult - if not impossible - to understand each other. This is a problem of historical references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.238.125.74 (talk) 18:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

No, this is a problem of WP:NPOV and the quality of writing on that website. Just like it says above. No one has said anything disputing Andre's status - you've inserted that into this discussion. He is mentioned in the article on a very short, elite list of important/famous picc players, and there's a link to his article. - Special-T (talk) 20:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Special-T. Nothing said about the Andre link explains these comments. What has it do do with Mason/Penny Lane/Beatles? Nothing. When you say "it is very difficult - if not impossible - to understand each other" it is certainly true, but its author needs to try to understand what is actually being said here and not react to a confused perception thereof. Nomorenonotnever (talk) 11:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Piccolo Range?

The article says, "The smallest of the trumpet family is the piccolo trumpet, pitched one octave higher than the standard B♭ trumpet." Being interested in the piccolo mainly for higher range, I just came from an internet site that stated flatly that one will not be able to play one's piccolo a octave higher than one's regular B flat trumpet. Is this article correct? Or is the other article correct about your pickle? (EnochBethany (talk) 04:28, 1 March 2011 (UTC))

The article is correct. Whether an individual player can instantly play in that range on a piccolo trumpet is another matter. - Special-T (talk) 00:36, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Would you mind telling me how you know? I have come across the claim that while the tubing is half the length, the range is the same. Are you a piccolo player?

http://www.mti.dmu.ac.uk/~ahugill/manual/trumpet/range.html "There is normally no difference in range between a Bb trumpet and a piccolo trumpet, but some 4-valve piccolo trumpets do have an additional major 3rd range below the treble staff (i.e. down to Db3)"

http://trumpetplayersblog.blogspot.com/2008/01/piccolo-trumpet-answers.html "The piccolo trumpet sounds brighter than the larger trumpets, such as the standard Bb & C soprano trumpets but, contrary to popular belief, the piccolo trumpet does not enable you to play high notes more easily than the larger trumpets do."

http://reviews.ebay.com/Non-Standard-Trumpet-Guide_W0QQugidZ10000000008667543 "The most common mistake a first-time buyer of a piccolo trumpet makes is that of assuming that the horn automatically fascilitates [sic] playing in the clarino (high) register. If your range isn't developed up there, a piccolo trumpet won't help and you'll be throwing your money away."

http://www.virtualtrumpetstudio.com/guide_to_trumpet.htm "As stated earlier, the piccolo trumpet does not automatically bestow high range. What it does do is bring these notes down into the trumpet's most stable and accurate register by raising the fundamental."

(EnochBethany (talk) 04:29, 1 March 2011 (UTC))

Find any orchestration textbook and it will tell you. Tubing is half the length of a 'regular' Bb trumpet. None of the statements above contradicts this. The first statement refers to written range. The others refer to the player's ability to play in the higher range of the instrument, not to the physics of the instrument itself. - Special-T (talk) 13:26, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

A trumpeter explained it to me this way: "On a regular trumpet, the high notes are very close together, so they are hard to hit accurately, while on the piccolo trumpet the notes are further apart and easier to hit." That is, the harmonic the player must select with his embouchure (regardless of valves) on the regular trumpet is twice as high a harmonic in the series for the same pitch, the upper harmonics being very close in pitch, whilst the piccolo trumpet being an octave lower in the harmonic series for a given note is easier to manage. The closeness of the high harmonics is exactly why a baroque trumpeter could play a chromatic passage on a natural trumpet; once you have valves for this, the close notes are just a nuisance. --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 20:18, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

BTW, I just came across an unsourced and unverified statement re its highest playable note: "Prior to this recording [Penny Lane], the high "E" reached by Mason was considered unobtainable by trumpet players and has been expected of them since this performance." Personally, I doubt that Mason was the very first, given the expertise of baroque trumpeters on the contemporary natural trumpet, which I believe was actually full length, but if it can be verified that he extended the playable range of the modern instrument, it might be worth a comment in the article. In any case, I would like to see the range shown as it is typically done in orchestration books with a small staff showing the notes, first "As written" then "Sounding" and "Possible". I'll see what I can find out. --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 00:19, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

@D A Patriarche it's the middle of the night but I have The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Brass Instruments on the shelf downstairs with "Ranges of labrosones" in the appendices. — Jon (talk) 11:59, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

One of my orchestration books (Adler, 1992) shows the top written note on piccolo trumpet as the A above the staff. As with all brass instruments, there is no real "highest note." - Special-T (talk) 13:52, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! I have lost all my reference books in a series of moves, but after some digging I found digital copies of Forsyth's Orchestration (1914, charming but not to be relied on for modern instruments), and (after a lot of digging) Piston (1955), which is better but probably also not up to WP standards for reference. I got called out by a brass player once already for seriously understating the low range of a (contemporary) bass trombone! I think I had better leave the whole issue to brass players and musicologists more knowledgeable than me. D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 19:47, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

@Special-T this is true, but we can use the idea of tessitura being the more or less generally accepted useful and/or idiomatic range of the instrument, based on its repertoire. Adler can be hit and miss; for instance, even in his 4th edition (2016) he still asserts that contrabass trombones are cumbersome, hard to play and should not be written for, as if the modern F contrabass now routinely used in film soundtracks since the 1990s doesn't exist. But I digress :) — Jon (talk) 11:26, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Totally agree - most charts I've seen show the C above the staff as the top note on trumpet, which is, of course, very conservative, but still a useful guide. I'm not buying Adler's high A for picc either, which is why I didn't put it in the article. - Special-T (talk) 14:41, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Righto, I've dug out The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Brass Instruments. The range of the "Four-valve piccolo trumpet in B♭" under "Modern instruments" is given as B₃–F₆ in Appendix 2:

It also lists the 19th century 3-valve Bach trumpet separately on p. 45 (initially built in 5′ A, but subsequently in 3½′ D, half the length of the natural trumpet in D that Bach called for), and the appendix supplies the modern trumpet in D, essentially a wrapped version of the straight original, as:

The appendix does not describe a natural trumpet in 7′ D, only 8′ C on p. 490, which describes the range as:

Which supports the idea (and general usage/idiom) that the upper clarino range (above the 7th partial) of the Baroque natural trumpet in 7′ D that Bach wrote for (one tone higher than the natural trumpet in 8′ C), and the ranges of both the 19th century 3-valve Bach trumpet in 3½′ D and the modern 4-valve piccolo trumpet in 2¼′ B♭ (or 2⅜′ A) are much the same, with a tessitura range to around high F₆. Of course, players with great chops can go higher, aided by smaller, shallower mouthpieces, and indeed this is often heard in jazz - very high (colloq. "screaming") trumpet parts, played by jazz players, even on standard (4¾′) B♭ trumpets. Arturo Sandoval for instance often squeals away in the stratosphere, up to and above B♭₆. To reiterate, Adler in his 4th edition of The Study of Orchestration on pp. 363–364 describes in the text that the B♭ piccolo trumpet "has an effective range from B♭₃ to A₅" but then supplies its range as:

So... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ — Jon (talk) 00:28, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

References

Photos or indeed picc pics

1. The second picc picture (purple background) is quite nice but could maybe do with a caption. Also (1a), we've concentrated on the older-fashioned shaped piccs and could maybe do with something newer/taller/longer as well ... more Schilke/Yamaha/new-Bach-looking perhaps? I'm very attached to the original (red background) photo, not only because it has been here since c. 1893 but also because it's quite useful.

2. In an edit summary Special-T asks whether one of the photos is perhaps reversed. Good question but no, I don't think so. There's a lack of standardization in picc layouts that's far more dramatic than you see in (most) big trumpets. The red picture is an old (old I tell you!) Selmer and the purple one could be a more recent Selmer or something but I suspect it might be the late and unlamented (though pretty) Bach 196. (I wish it was in 3D so I could just roll it this way a little to see...) Anyway, they're constructed in different ways - the old Selmer is bell-right-of-valves and the other instrument is bell-left, and ne'er the twain shall meet. So they don't really fulfil the criterion of being images of "both sides" because it doesn't work like that unless you really photograph both sides of one instrument! I suppose I could do that if I were a nice and conscientious person but please don't hold your breath. Also the RH side of the old Selmer is a bit boring, because all the fun happens over on this side! Oh well. Hope this helps; best wishes, DBaK (talk) 19:05, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

comment - in fact (point 1a) I suppose I could also add (if I could be *rsed) a photo of an equally ancient Selmer F&G. But it would be really rather similar to the existing Selmer B♭/A - like, very very similar, just a bit longer and prettier - so maybe I should not. In addition, explaining why we call that an F&G and call the other a B♭/A would keep us all up long past our bedtimes, and give us paracetamol-resistant headaches ... so maybe not. I should shut up now; indeed I will shut up now. :) DBaK (talk) 19:16, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm Confused!

Something doesn't add up in this article. It basically says that the piccolo trumpet was invented in order to play Bach works. Well what on earth did they do in Bach's time? Did Bach really write unplayable works, thinking "Well, in a few centuries, someone will invent a trumpet that can play this!" I dearly wish that someone who knows the answer would clarify this in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.113.126.72 (talk) 09:52, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Good point. I think it was written by people, possibly including me, who - because they sort-of knew the history - took it for granted. It needs a tweak to explain, and it should also probably mention that those Bach (et al) parts are being played on repro Baroque instruments too, nowadays, in the right context. Offtopic for the picc but germane to the comments on the parts getting played then (and then) and now. Ermm. Long story. Maybe I will do it or maybe someone who is keen and competent and bright will step in and save us all. DBaK (talk) 01:11, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

B-flat piccolo trumpet versus B-flat trumpet as transposing instruments

A B-flat trumpet sounds two semitones lower than scored. But according to the article, a B-flat piccolo trumpet sounds two semitones higher than scored? Hard to believe. Somebody please shed some light.CountMacula (talk) 19:43, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

The article says: "The piccolo trumpet in B♭ is a transposing instrument, which sounds a minor seventh higher than written." Which is correct. - Special-T (talk) 00:02, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

@Special-T actually it's not correct; it's complicated. The piccolo is mostly used to perform high parts written for other trumpet sizes, Baroque and Classical clarino passages (Bach, Haydn), etc. So if we're going to talk about it being a B flat transposing instrument then @CountMacula is correct. It's seldom specifically called for, and there's no sources claiming the minor seventh transposition. I will dig it up in the Cambridge Companion and other refs and fix it when I get home. — Jon (talk) 01:06, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

I understand that it can be used by choice to play a part, but if music is written for piccolo it would be written with the transposition stated, yes? Samuel Adler’s “The Study of Orchestration” says, “..the Bb piccolo trumpet, which transposes a minor seventh up…”. Special-T (talk) 01:33, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

"transposes ... up" would have to mean that the notes are written higher than the concert pitch of what is played.CountMacula (talk) 10:19, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

I guess if piccolo trumpet doesn't have its own scored part, then it is transposing exactly when the music is written for a transposing instrument. And the transposition interval would be the same as for the non-piccolo-trumpet instrument. Then we would also want to know the transposition when it does have its own scored part.CountMacula (talk) 01:34, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Adler means that the pitches sound a minor seventh higher than written, which he makes clear in the range diagrams. Short version of my two cents: If music is written for piccolo trumpet (musical theater, commercial arrangements) it would be written a minor seventh lower than the sounding pitch. I think this simple, clear version is what belongs in a general encyclopedia article. It would be good to mention that trumpet players frequently choose which instrument to play, and do any transposition themselves (which I've noticed is the norm in orchestras nowadays, with each player choosing the Bb or the C and transposing the written music when necessary). But that situation (choosing which instrument to use and transposing accordingly) falls outside of the question "what transposition does this instrument use?" - Special-T (talk) 14:24, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

I think we should rely on a more specific trumpet resource, than Adler's orchestration text, however "standard"; in thirty years of arranging and playing I've never encountered trumpet players reading piccolo up the octave.—Jon (talk) 22:46, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Update: sorry, I'm not really bashing Adler, as it is generally a good guide and textbook for students of orchestration; I'm just saying that the conceit introduced (on pp. 383–4 of the 4th edition) is that music is written a minor 7th up for the instrument. If it is, I've never seen it. That said, I haven't found any specific refs to the contrary yet, either. The edit introducing this to the article was in 2014, anonymous, and uncited. Perhaps we can actually put this in the article - "some texts advocate writing it a 7th up, e.g. Adler, +ref" or something, and then say that in practice players transpose everything as needed? — Jon (talk) 23:12, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Update 2: turns out, I'm wrong, and Adler is right! Who knew... the piccolo part in Cats, for example, is written down the octave and transposed up. I've even played Cats! I've updated the article. — Jon (talk) 02:37, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

"Who knew"? Not me. Glad to know the article hasn't been wrong about the point for eight years. Thanks, Jon and Special-T.CountMacula (talk) 11:55, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

References

I think we're both getting at: IF it's treated as a transposing instrument, the music is written a minor 7th lower than sounding. BUT, it's not always treated as a transposing instrument. - Special-T (talk) 15:11, 7 February 2023 (UTC)