Talk:Persian Gulf

Ancient names for the Persian Gulf

Currently, the page makes a single reference to the usage of 'the Bitter Sea' by the 'Assyrians'. Setting aside that this is incredibly vague, it doesn't address the fact that the Sumerians and the early Semitic Mesopotamians called the Persian Gulf 'the Lower Sea'. This is the most common nomenclature in early Mesopotamian texts. The name contrasts the Persian Gulf with the Mediterranean, which the early Mesopotamians called 'the Upper Sea'. A thousand years later, in Neo-Assyrian tests, the Gulf is called 'the Eastern Sea'. This should be relevant to include, I think.

Source: https://www.jstor.org/stable/4311029 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A458:447B:1:1D7B:7DDB:93A1:E043 (talk) 14:38, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

FAQ template to talk page

Should we replace the not-a-forum tag with a FAQ explaining the naming dispute and that the name "Arabian Gulf" won't be replaced in the article? NotAGenious (talk) 13:30, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Ice Age exposure as land

Modern geography has shown that the global sea level during the ice age was over 400 feet (120 meters lower as recently as 8000 BC. This means that the entire Gulf was dry land, a continuation of the Tigris+Euphrates river valley. Little research to date has explored potential cities and settlements in this area, though it may well have been a far more important area of inhabitation than the well known ancient cities. This topic is worth mentioning. Gar37bic (talk) 14:53, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, if supporting reliable sources can be cited with any addition. DeCausa (talk) 21:08, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes - can you point to RS on this? Lukewarmbeer (talk) 07:34, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

New interactive zoomable map

@DeCausa Hi, the OpenStreetMap map is interactive and zoomable and very well shows map of Persian Gulf. Why did you revert my edit? This map is different from all existing maps. I really believe that if you want to remove one of two maps, you should remove the jpg map and not the OpenStreetMap map.

It is very clear and even more clear than the jpg. All water borders are shown in this new map. Also islands of Persian Gulf are shown better and more clearly. These details only can be shown by OpenStreetMap.

This ability is specially well-used by mobile users. They rapidly zoom by two fingers. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 16:52, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Firstly, you increased the maps from one to 5 in the Infobox (only 4 of which worked with captions) which is way over the top and unnecessary. Secondly, the OpenStreetmap is unnecessary and inferior in comparison to the existing satellite image. The latter gives a good view of the geographic and oceanographic setting. It shows the nature of the surrounding terrain as well as shallow and deeper water, with excellent and clear detail of the coastline such as islands and inlets. A not insignificant factor is that it is aesthetically pleasing. TheOpenStreet map, on the other hand, is an unattractive and featureless slab of grey with irrelevant features such as the location of Riyadh and Shiraz. The coastline is unclear and crudely drawn. The body of water is featureless block of blue. It imparts little information about the Gulf other than its basic shape. The same is not true of the satellite map. DeCausa (talk) 18:07, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

@DeCausa You are right that no more than 5 maps is allowed, but pushpin maps are overlapped when showing and only one of them is shown at any time, but we can ignore it totally by removing pushpin maps.

I really insist on displaying OpenStreetMap map.

Yes Persian Gulf is very beautiful from satellite! But we should only show this gulf, without any extra information. Existing satellite image has extra information in it:

1. Coulds are not necessary specially near Dubai there exists clouds
2. The color of waters is extra information
3. In my opinion, mountains of Iran is unrelevant to Persian Gulf too.

We only should show

1. Borders of gulf
2. Islands of gulf by name
3. Importand countries by name

Additionally, I really think that the details represented in OpenStreetMap are much more useful than the details represented from Seattleite. In fact, we should "model" this gulf. In modeling process, we do not need exact borders with full details. So inaccurate border lines as in OpenStreetMap is more useful than exact borders.

Finally, satellite image lacks any text of for explaining main items. Unlike OpenStreetMap maps. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 18:59, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

@DeCausa In my opinion, svg maps had become deprecated, and we can use "rich metadata maps" as in OpenStreetMap maps. These new maps are much more helpful for anyone. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 19:12, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

These new maps are not more helpful. Having these details is helpful. Why are these "rich metadata maps" more helpful? QuicoleJR (talk) 19:32, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

The open streetmaps are subjectively inferior when displayed in the infobox, and to make use of their features and details you have to click on them and exit Wikipedia to another site. This renders them not suitable for being included in the infobox at this scale. Canterbury Tail talk 19:41, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

@QuicoleJRSolid svg image has no any text. What OpenStreetMap adds is metadata,

1. Name of Island is metadata of satellite image, (not shown in satallite)
2. Showing main roads with names are metadata and so on. (not shown in satallite)
3. Where is the border of Persian Gulf? Is it clear in satellite map? (not shown in satallite)

What is important and useful are these items.

I ask you:

1. Cloud over Dubai is useful to anyone? (shown in satallite)
2. A mountain in Iran is useful? (shown in satallite)
3. Snow over mountain is useful. (shown in satallite)

@Canterbury Tail Sorry for pinging you, but you reverted my edits. So please continue discussing. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 19:51, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

I have been discussing, you don't need to ping me., I'm able to follow discussions I'm participating in without notifications. Canterbury Tail talk 19:53, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

The metadata is not visible to most readers, as few of them will click on the map. The border is also not ambiguous since the Persian Gulf is a body of water, and therefore the coastline acts as the border. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:54, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

The information you're talking about is NOT visible in the infobox. Name of island, not visible in infobox. Main roads? Not visible in infobox. Border of Persian Gulf, seems to have been arbitrarily chosen in this map which is odd when there is no recognised boundary to it. In fact the labels in the infobox are confusing because they're illegible and cut off by the borders. Canterbury Tail talk 19:57, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

As I know OpenMapStreet shows details of metadata maps based on the zoom number, for example, zoom number of 7 shows only 1 island and zoom 9 shows 5 or more islands etc. Perhaps we should change settings of OpenMapStreet to show more or less texts on early zooms. Some settings are required for that. But I really think that we should not use satellite image for Infobox of Persian Gulf. They are somehow deprecated for Infoboxes. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 20:12, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

They are not deprecated for infoboxes, you would need a community consensus for that. Your opinion is not policy. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:18, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Hooman Mallahzadeh, what you say makes absolutely no sense. One cannot access the features you claim. It is a dull, pointless, ugly map that adds nothing and takes away information displayed in the satellite map. You are pushing these useless maps in multiple articles. I don't know what motivates you in doing this but you have literally found no one who agrees with you. You need to drop this. DeCausa (talk) 23:04, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 December 2023

The coastline measurements are not correct. Iran's coastline is more significant than 3800km if calculated using the interval of 30km. The Saudi coastline is not even 1/3 of the Iranian coast, which is evident on the map.

The table named "coastlines" tells us Iran has 1536 km and Saudi has 1300 km coastline with the Persian Gulf!

According to the "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Saudi_Arabia" "To the north, Saudi Arabia is bounded by Jordan, Iraq, and Kuwait. The northern boundary extends almost 1,400 km (870 mi) from the Gulf of Aqaba on the west to Ras al Khafji on the Persian Gulf." Saudi Arabia has a 1400km border in the north from the Gulf of Aqaba to Ras Al Khafji.

How does Saudi Arabia have a 1300km coastline with the Persian Gulf? The information is incorrect and misleading. If the shorter interval is considered for the coastline of Saudi, the same rule should be used for others and vice versa.

Please correct the table "Coastlines" to prevent confusion for the readers. Smartiz707 (talk) 08:56, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. I have added "citation needed" template there for now, because now it is just original research which is unacceptable in Wikipedia. Deltaspace⁴² (talk • contribs) 18:52, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 February 2024 (2)

Tahoura.ros (talk) 10:07, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Could you kindly update the title to reflect the accurate name "Persian Gulf" instead of "Arabian Sea"? It's important to maintain the correct terminology to avoid confusion. Despite search results sometimes showing "Arabian Gulf," a glance at the map clearly indicates it as the "Persian Gulf." Your prompt attention to rectifying this misinformation would be greatly appreciated.

"The body of water is historically and internationally known as the Persian Gulf. Arab governments refer to it as the Arabian Gulf or The Gulf, and other countries and organizations have begun using Arabian Gulf. The name Gulf of Iran (Persian Gulf) is used by the International Hydrographic Organization."

Persian Gulf - Wikipedia

This is also a reliable source that could be used, by wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Gulf#:~:text=The%20body%20of%20water%20is%20historically%20and%20internationally%20known%20as,by%20the%20International%20Hydrographic%20Organization.

 Not done: The title is already 'Persian Gulf' so no action needed. DeCausa (talk) 11:26, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

The debate of geographical names

Here is what Bing Copilot said after I had to beat some sense into it. And the argument has to be added under the dispute, that some argue...

From a geographical perspective, if a peninsula forms the engulfment of a body of water, it would indeed be more accurate to refer to it by the name associated with that peninsula. In the case of the Gulf of Mexico, which is embraced by the Mexican peninsula, the name “Gulf of Mexico” aligns with this geographical reality. However, it’s essential to recognize that naming conventions are influenced by a multitude of factors beyond pure geography. Historical, cultural, and political considerations also play a significant role. The term “Arabian Gulf” reflects regional viewpoints and sensitivities, even though the geographical reality remains the same. In summary, while the geographical correctness favors naming based on the associated landform, the actual nomenclature can be more nuanced due to historical context and differing perspectives.

So under the modern it should also be mentioned, that regardless of the feelings of Persian people, and the historical, cultural, and political considerations, it is incorrect and not accurate to call the gulf the Persian gulf, because in geographic reality it is the Arabian Gulf.

Just as it is correct to name the region of Palestine, Palestine regardless of the historical, cultural and political factors cannot be called the region of Israel.

And further taken into consideration, this is a debate on geographical area, and not the cultural, historical and political factors, the name Persian Gulf must be eliminated as it does not accurately reflect the geographic reality of the gulf. 82.194.55.148 (talk) 10:11, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm afraid your post is irrelevant per WP:OR. We only reflect the WP:DUE position of reliable sources - which this article does. DeCausa (talk) 10:23, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

irrelevant but not incorrect or inaccurate. Just as Pluto is no longer a planet, regardless of all the sources that stated otherwise, the argument was made to reflect the reality that it is a dwarf planet.

Do we really need a reliable source to reflect the reality of the world we live in? 82.194.55.148 (talk) 10:34, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

The reality is that globally this body of water is known by the same name as the title of this article. Any personal theories you might have why that is wrong is of no interest. DeCausa (talk) 10:47, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

No the reality is the body of water is only engulfed by the peninsula that leads it to being a gulf. It is only more accurate to refer to it by the name associated with that peninsula.

After all, it is the Gulf of Mexico, not the Gulf of America.

Regardless of the global opinion. Regardless of the historical sources from the Romans, Greeks, Persian and even the Arabs. One cannot accurately call the body of water that is engulfed by a peninsula by some other land form that does not form the gulf. 82.194.55.148 (talk) 11:00, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Here are some sources:

Gulf of Alaska - Named after the Alaskan Peninsula

Gulf of Mexico - Named after the Mexican Peninsula

Gulf of Aden - Named after the Aden Peninsula 84.255.184.26 (talk) 12:33, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

"You have been to school, haven't you? What was the name that you have read during your school days?" - Mohammad Reza Shah

It's always been called the Persian Gulf, and it always will be. Shahzad (talk) 23:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)