Talk:Pennines

Penines/Appenines etymology

I have seen similarity between Pennines and Apennines, too, and also have read #Name section here about interesting "ancient source" The Description of Britain forgery.

So I looked a bit in etymology of Apenines. What was unexpected to me (I expected latin/etruscan-indoeuropean... connection) is, that by Italian Apenines article's most frequent explanation for italian Apenini is that A-penn-ini montes is supposed to be derived from Celtic penn - meananing top of ones head, but also top of a mountain, summit.

Wiktionary doesnt't have anything on that Pennini/Appenini etymology (yet). But etimonline agrees:

pen-

a Brythonic (Celtic) word for "head;" common in place names in Cornwall and Wales (such as Penzance; see also pendragon and Pennsylvania).

That way, plural could also be understood as a string of mountain tops, a mountain chain.

But that pattern fits to Apennines and Pennines both, and RomanH Brittania was also heavily populated by Celts. Well, until/unless somebody finds a credible source for British Penines this's just a riddle to gnaw on and amuse oneself (and exercise one's brain), not an answer to put in WP article. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 17:00, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Revert and reasons for that

Previous section was written as New section, and published after several hours of other work (that included communication testing and browser, possible even OS restart(s)). When intended section was reviewed, no anomaly manifested, but when published I found complete previous contents of talk page was replaced by new section, instead of new section be appended at end of previous discussions.

I extracted text of new section, reverted missaved page and am now both again adding section (with saving of which problem manifested), and description of the problem and my action after it. --Marjan Tomki SI (talk) 17:00, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

GPS

I suggest include the GPS link of the Pennies. --BoldLuis (talk) 09:54, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

The Pennines are more than 100 miles long and tens of miles wide. What co-ordinate would you suggest? Dave.Dunford (talk) 20:14, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Southern end of the range

I'm aware this is a topic that has been discussed multiple times in this talk page (as the archive demonstrates, mentioning Stoke-on-Trent as one end and Derby as another) but I just thought I'd raise this point in response to some recent edits to the lead of this page done by both me and A.D.Hope. I definitely think mentioning the Staffordshire Moorlands in the lead as being the southernmost foothills of the range is a bit ambiguous. This is because the name mainly refers to an administrative district in Staffordshire rather than a specific terrain area which is mostly secondary not to mention that the terrain there is hardly moorland despite the name. I would also point out that the foothills don't just extend into Staffordshire (the foothills definitely do end around the Trent even in Staffordshire and Stoke is pretty much in the foothills), it also extends into southern Derbyshire at least up to Derby near the Trent Valley (the reason I've mentioned it in the lead, as it flows around the range's southern end), which is a bit further south than the Staffordshire Moorlands area (whenever I've driven into the hilly terrain northwards from Derby, especially on the A38 road, I always feel like I'm in the foothills of the Pennines), and is more consistent with the Geography section in the article. I definitely think the range of the Pennines (or at least its southernmost foothills) do end roughly at or near the valley of the River Trent (Stoke is along the valley while Derby is near it) so I'd say its more of a point of reference to mention than say just Staffordshire, Derbyshire or the Staffordshire Moorlands district as it is comparable to mentioning the Tyne Gap for the range's northern end. Broman178 (talk) 15:47, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Firstly, I don't want to step on any toes or upset a solid consensus. The article needs to mention that the Pennines start somewhere in the Midlands that's fine, I'm not wedded to any one idea of where that is.

One source which might be useful is Natural England's 'National Character Areas'. The two most relevant to us are 50 Derbyshire Peak Fringe and Lower Derwent, and 52 White Peak. Together these effectively mark the southern fringe of the Pennines, but neither reaches the Trent — the maps on gov.uk aren't very clear, but there's a more useful one here. It would provide a nice symmetry if the passage began and ended with river valleys, as you've mentioned yourself, but I'm not sure that using the Trent would be accurate.

If we do accept that those two areas mark the southernmost part of the Pennines, maybe that passage could read 'The White Peak area of the Peak District is the southernmost part of the Pennines, with its foothills beginning just north of Derby. North of the Peak District the range continues as the South Pennines...'

What do you think? A.D.Hope (talk) 19:54, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for my late reply. It sounds like a nice idea but at the same time, I'm not entirely sure whether National Character Areas (NCAs) are a useful way to define the Pennine extent unless I guess they are described in sufficient detail (there actually used to be a National Character Areas section in this article years ago but it later got removed on the basis that it was a meaningless section without much context). And at the same time, while the White Peak is indeed part of the Pennines, the NCA source for the White Peak doesn't actually mention the Pennines while the Derbyshire Peak Fringe source only mentions the Pennines once (I would argue that the Potteries and Churnet Valley NCA is another Pennine foothills area and the source for that does mention the terrain there as being transitional between the Peak District/Pennines and the lower areas near it like the Cheshire Plain).

And another thing I would probably point out is that places like Leeds and Wakefield are described as being on the foothills or edge of the Pennines (respectively), something which the archive here features, even though the NCA they are actually in is the Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire and Yorkshire Coalfield and there are some sources which describe the western bits of the coalfield (especially the Yorkshire coalfield) as being in the Pennine foothills. Another problem with using the NCAs as borders or for defining the Pennine extent would be that NCAs themselves don't have hard borders and I think I read a statement there a few years ago that borders with other NCAs are merely areas of transition - most Wikipedia articles on geographic areas in England avoid using NCAs to describe the landscape (e.g. Lake District & Yorkshire Dales don't have them mentioned).

Funnily enough, there is actually a source in the Geography section here which mentions that the Pennines end in a line across Staffordshire between Newcastle-under-Lyme and Uttoxeter while the source next to it mentions the Pennines ending near Derby so by that logic & based on those two sources & the Great Mountain Days in the Pennines source before them, you could say the range ends on a line from Newcastle-under-Lyme/Stoke-on-Trent to Uttoxeter and then Derby in the east. However, I don't really think mentioning that in the lead would be a great idea as that would make it unnecessarily wordy (mentioning that it ends near the Trent Valley for me covers that in the lead for me) and I would say in my opinion either that, or the NCA ideas if they were to be mentioned would probably be better off featured in the Geography section. Broman178 (talk) 22:39, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I have simplified the lead again as the recent changes made it too wordy & overly detailed concerning the southern end (the lead is just meant to be a brief summary for the rest of the article's content). I think most people will agree the southern end of the range (if foothills & outer fringes are also concerned) is near the valley of the River Trent (because places like Stoke & Derby are at or near the Trent Valley anyway), so best to keep it as that in my opinion. Broman178 (talk) 10:39, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Conclusion

The pennines are located from North West England,Yorkshire,to North east England.The pennines also go through:Leeds,Greater Manchester,Shefield and Hull. 2A02:C7C:EE27:B400:8C33:8A5A:6568:8561 (talk) 12:54, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Quite a late reply but I might just point out that the Pennines don't even remotely extend eastwards near or up to Hull (although if its your opinion, then you're entitled to it) as they pretty must end around the Leeds/Sheffield city regions when going east. And in any case the Demography section already has a sentence on that - "The cities of Bradford, Derby, Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield, Stoke-on-Trent and Wakefield are also in the surrounding foothills and lowlands." Broman178 (talk) 10:33, 2 January 2024 (UTC)