Talk:Pella curse tablet

transcription

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1. [Θετί]μας και Διονυσοφώντος το τέλος και τον γάμον καταγράφω και ταν αλλάν πασάν γυ-

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2. [ναικ]ών και χηράν και παρθένων, μάλιστα δε Θετίμας, και παρκαττίθεμαι Μάκρωνι και

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3. [τοις]δαίμοσι, και οπόκα εγώ ταύτα διελ<ί>ξαιμι και αναγνοίην πάλ<L>ιν ανορ<ύ>ξασα

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4. [τόκα]γάμαι Διονυσοφώντα, πρότερον δε μη μη γαρ λάβοι άλλαν γυναίκα αλλ' εμέ,

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5. [εμέ δ]έ συνκαταγηράσαι Διονυσοφώντι και μηδεμίαν άλλαν, ικέτις υμώ<ν> γίνο-

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6. [μαι, Φίλ]αν οικτίρετε δαίμονες φίλ[ο]ι, ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ φίλων πάντων και έρημα, αλλά

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7. [....]α φυλάσσετε εμίν ό[π]ως μη γίνεται τα[ύ]τα και κακά κακώς Θετίμα απόληται.

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8. [....]ΑΛ[-].ΥΝΜ .. ΕΣΠΛΗΝ εμός, εμέ δε [ε]υ[δ]αίμονα και μακαρίαν γενέσται.

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9. [-]ΤΟ[.].[-].[..]..Ε.Ε.Ω[?]Α.[.]Ε..ΜΕΓΕ [-]

- [the diacritics are not present in the original] [1]

- dab (ᛏ) 28 June 2005 07:29 (UTC)

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why do you transcribe ω as ōo?

copy-paste error, sorry dab (ᛏ) 09:23, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Excellent job on the text, but you forgot the ΟΙΚΤΙΡΕΤΕ translation, which I added. Thanks! -Chronographos

I think the text is quite charming, being so personal and emotional, a 4th century BC love story. I just wonder whether she got the guy, but since it seems she didn't dig up the scroll again, it is unlikely she ever married him :o) dab (ᛏ) 12:11, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He, he, he, I agree: it's also very funny in a way. Maybe Macro was more powerful than what you and I think! Anyways, you have made a transcription mistake: you write ΑΛΛ Ε ΕΜΕ instead of ΑΛΛ Η ΕΜΕ. Would you please correct it? The Wikipedia numerical code confuses me or I would have done it myself. Thanx

I'll fix it; but why do we translate katagrapho as "I bind"? The required meaning must be something like "I encumber magically", but isn't the literal meaning just "I inscribe"? LSJ gives a meaning "I curse" [2], which is obviously intended here, so we should either say "I inscribe" (implying, with the intent to curse), or, less literally, just "I curse" dab (ᛏ) 12:17, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Good point, both LSJ and you are obviously correct. I gave thought to it and decided upon "bind" because it connects with the meaning of "katadesmos" (binding down). Still, any which way you choose to translate it, I have no objection. It depends whether one wants to offer a word-by-word literal translation or a looser, meaning-based one. It's the perennial predicament of a translator. Hence the famous "translator=traitor" motto! Chronographos 11:16, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Found some stuff! Prof. Radcliffe's translation is somewhat different. We'll talk about it some more later Chronographos 16:14, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

the brynmawr.edu page dates the text to the 2nd century BC. dab (ᛏ) 21:24, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, and there is actually more text on the picture than the original publication. Do you think is was better restored later on, after more pieces were found? I think the 2nd century dating, if true, actually is a stronger argument for a Macedonian dialect as by that time Koine must have been much more prevalent. I wonder whether they dated it by linguistic or stratigraphic criteria. Because the latter would be confounded by Phila's actual burying of the tab deeper than where it would be supposed to be! Notice how Phila says πασάν γυναικών και χηράν: Genitive Plural rendered successively into Doric, Attic and Doric again (admittedly the Doric forms are 1st Declension whereas the Attic one is 3rd Declension, i.e. no thematic vowel). I have no idea what ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ means, not even where the word breaks are. I am pretty suspicious though that ΑΠΟΛΗΤΑΙ is grossly misspelt. I have forgotten how the Optative Aorist of απόλλυμι forms. Wish I knew where my old grammar book is hiding! Chronographos 22:10, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Speaking of ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ, do we have a source in the Wiki entry for the line that explains ΙΜΕ as akin to Attic "εἰμι"?

Dagina

what about the ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ btw? The one word our hellenotetas apologete couldn't make sense of? It must mean something like "I am bereft". Ring any bells? dakhinakharime? thagina kharime? thakhina gar eme? any ideas? dab (ᛏ) 21:49, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He is quoting a Professor Voutyras who is guessing that ΔΑΓΙΜΑ is part of the name of the woman performing the magic. This name is "surely short and ends with an a". ГАРΙΜΕ must then be gar eimi; the translation continues "for I am helpless and all my friends have abandoned me". Prof. Voutyras goes on to say that the language of the katadesmos belongs to the "wider group of Doric dialects" but has been influenced by Attic ("like all the local dialects of that time") and is a kekramenē (mixed) dialect. Attic influenced the dialect's syntax primarily, its morphology (grammar) to a lesser degree and its phonology even less. "Ancient grammarians used the term 'new Doris dialect'."--Theathenae 22:34, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

thanks! I'm only reading Greek though a fog :) So, it seems we should drop the "Phila" part. I mean, I was wondering how they came up with Philan just from ]an anyway. Dagina would then be the woman doing the cursing? That certainly sounds more Macedonian than Phila. This would yield the quite credible translation of a triple philo-:

ΦΙΛ]ΑΝ ΟΙΚΤΙΡΕΤΕ ΔΑΙΜΟΝΕΣ ΦΙΛ[Ο]Ι ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ ΦΙΛΩΝ ΠΑΝΤΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΕΡΗΜΑ

Have mercy on [your dear one], dear demons, Dagina(?), for I am abandoned of all my dear ones.

dab (ᛏ) 28 June 2005 07:21 (UTC)

Assuming that is a name, no such Macedonian name is recorded AFAIK, and there is no etymology for the name, so not much can be gleaned from it. Decius 28 June 2005 08:19 (UTC)

Maybe Dagina is the name of a supernatural being, "Demons, dears ones of Dagina". For example, Dagina may have been a mother of the daimones (her 'dear ones'). I'm not too concerned though, because it's not likely to be Macedonian, however one reads it. Decius 28 June 2005 08:29 (UTC)

yeah, that's just speculation. It should be accusative anyway. Maybe Dagin? All I meant is that Dagin may be XMK, phonologically, while Phila should be Bila (but the Phi is broken off anyway). Since the text is Doric, allegedly with Attic influence, it is irrelevant for XMK, except if we can make out an XMK persnal name, and Dagina would be the only candidate of that. dab (ᛏ) 28 June 2005 09:20 (UTC)

I was giving the tablet a fair chance, but after considering that the Macedonian name Berenike may well predate this possibly 2nd century BC text (proving that the voiced aspiration goes well back), I'm no longer considering this Pella text as Macedonian. Decius 28 June 2005 09:25 (UTC)

The names in Ph Kh Th predate too.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.38.15 (talk) 21:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

It is, of course, Macedonian, geographically, and it may well be that Doric was spoken in Macedon all the time, as well as XMK. But for XMK, of course, it is entirely irrelevant, except for Dagina, if it is a name, maybe. dab (ᛏ) 28 June 2005 09:50 (UTC)

Dab, what Decius demonstrates is the typical rigidity of thought patterns shown by dry drunks. Everything has to fit his preconceived notions. There is no room for alternatives, no endeavor to reconcile theories with the facts, no healthy skepticism, no critical thinking. Just rigidity and endless autistic repetition. George W. Bush revisited. Chronographos 28 June 2005 16:40 (UTC)

Yeah Dab, but like we both said before, we already realized that Greek dialects were being spoken in ancient Macedon alongside XMK, so what have we really learned from all this that we didn't already anticipate? I even practically stated before my belief, based on my gloss of that passage in Herodotus, that Dorian tribes settled in ancient Macedonia alongide Macedonians (in Talk:Macedon). In the meanwhile, I'll be waiting for an XMK text to be discovered. Decius 28 June 2005 10:01 (UTC)

So, what dialect is the one on the tab, Decius? Chronographos 28 June 2005 10:06 (UTC)

It may well be a regional Greek dialect previously unknown---but I'm not going to assume it is Macedonian, if only for the reasons I stated before. But of course, the case is not closed yet. Decius 28 June 2005 10:10 (UTC)

Of course, a previously unknown dialect. And Macedonians adopted Greek names out of an inferiority complex. And Alexander, who had just overthrown the Achaemenid Empire, censored his Parthenon inscription because mentioning his ethnic identity would incense the ... Athenians! Anything, anything other than the dreaded possibility that .... Chronographos 28 June 2005 10:18 (UTC)

Dagys,Dagydos,Dagh is an ancient greek "voodoo" doll from wax.Dagy is the Thessalian form.Megistias (talk) 22:01, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

How it was dated

It's important to find out as-soon-as-convenient how the date was determined, and what date has been more accepted. Decius 28 June 2005 08:13 (UTC)

Added info ...

... on dating (with the respective external links), data from the Oxford Classical Dictionary, broke up first paragraph to several ones for easier legibility, changed reference to lay people vs. upper classes to non-POV. I may have more stuff soon, dab, if Professor Ronga gives me epigraphical data. In the meantime, the new Sappho poem awaits your comments at my talk page :-) Chronographos 4 July 2005 22:45 (UTC)

Added recent (2005) opinion by an Australian classicist Chronographos 6 July 2005 21:10 (UTC)

Looky here, what I found:

LSJ: δαγύς, δαγύδος, ἡ: wax doll, used in magic rites, puppet (Theocritus Idylls 2.110: "ἀλλ' ἐπάγην δαγῦδι καλὸν χρόα πάντοθεν ἴσα"). It does not fit ΔΑΓΙΝΑ morphologically, but the semantic fit just couldn't be better. Theocritus' passage is under "Φαρμακεύτριαι" (poisoners!). Chronographos 7 July 2005 01:28 (UTC)

Thanks Chrono, that's interesting. I'm going to look for the etymology of that Greek word, if it has one. Decius 7 July 2005 08:29 (UTC)

that's really interesting. So maybe she was not supposed to say her own name, and refers to her role, "have mercy on me, the curser". So could Dagina be an XMK word? Is there a thagus, dachus, tachinos or something similar? Frisk doesn't know, he has "Technisches Fremdwort ohne Etymologie." dab (ᛏ) 09:30, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

significance

later Macedonian inscriptions are in Koine avoiding both Doric forms and the Macedonian voicing of consonants.

we may indeed be learning that "Macedonian" was a Doric/N-W dialect. But that doesn't explain away the voiced consonants. We'll have to wait for a terminology to form, along the lines "Doric Macedonian" and "Macedonian X", since clearly they are two different dialects. The katadesmos conspicuously does not have voiced aspirates. My view of this is that *yes*, the Macedonian plain was Doric *Greek*, but there was also another dialect, probably spoken further north, that belongs more closely to Phrygian, or the Paleo-Balkans-continuum. We could rephrase the XMK article along these lines, but that doesn't change much about our knowledge of XMK proper. dab (ᛏ) 09:26, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Semantics and haste combined! Be a little bit patient, we can go step by step and there's some ground to cover. Let's start with Phila's commonest spelling error (I for EI): what does this tell us, and what can it explain (in the Katadesmos text)?

O Socrates, methinks that would indicate monophtongization. I cannot spot it as the 'most common' error, however. I can hardly make out single Iota. Phila, check. ginomai, ginetai, check. (but what is your comment on ginomai vs. gignomai?), malista, check. hiketis, check. what do you mean, i for ei? surely you mean "ai for ei", which is indeed Doric-NW-Lesbian dab (ᛏ) 19:47, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant I/E/EI confusion: διελέξαιμι, εμίν, and, as Dr. O'Neil thinks, πάλειν: Voutyras suggests, and O'Neil agrees, that long ι and ει were converging in pronunciation in 4th cent. BC Madeconia, so [Phi]la (or whoever) erroneously started writing an E, then stopped midway and proceeded with the I. This should account for the ΠΑΛLΙΝ. After all, one cannot erase a mistake when etching a sheet of lead. What do you think? Chronographos 20:34, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

very likely. mid 4th century is rather late, on the eve of atticization, so to speak. I was considering influence of the Latin alphabet, but this explanation seems better. hm. wouldn't it be poetic justice if Macedonia had been Doric while Macedonia had been XMK speaking? an almost Salomonic solution :) dab (ᛏ) 21:25, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Good, because O'Neil and Dubois then propose this reading: the Γ in ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ might be an unfinished Π, and then it's ΔΑΠΙΝΑ ΓΑΡ ΙΜΕ (Attic: ταπεινή γαρ ειμί, for I am downcast/weak). BTW this is another I for EI, or two. I know it may sound kind of a long stretch (and so do they) but notice the "ΚΑΙ ερήμα". If ΔΑΓΙΝΑ was a first name, then "because" and "and bereft of friends" make no sense. Would you ever write: "Please help me because I am Dieter and bereft of all friends"? (Decius would, but he's special). :-))) So, the ΓΑΡ ΙΜΕ and the ΚΑΙ indicate that ΔΑΓΙΝΑ is an adjective describing [Phi]la's desperate situation, just like ερήμα. Therefore δαπινά/δαπεινά fits perfectly meaning-wise. It does of course bring up a Δ for T thingie, but what are your comments so far? Chronographos 21:41, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't write that phrase either. Now, you may well be special (a deranged fellow who can't refrain from Ad hominem attacks?), but please refrain from such comments, because for each one you make I will be on you. Decius 10:21, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Why can't you take a joke? Do I give you the impression that I get phazed by your pernicious homophobia? I don't, so deal with it Chronographos 10:50, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

it looks as if a whole new katadesmos was in the works, just for Chronographos :) dab (ᛏ)

well, that sounds slightly more tenuous. The "L" could be an unfinished "E" because the woman realized the E shouldn't be there. The Π however would be correct, and there was nothing to stop her from completing it. The dagus hypothesis I like better, "help me, for I am the one invoking you, around here, and am bereft of all friends". I'm not saying it's impossible, of course. For such considerations, we would really need to see a closeup photograph of the thing. dab (ᛏ) 10:41, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

The meaning of the ΔΑΓΙΝΑ........ phrase is most closely mirrored by the "Sola, perduta, abbandonatta" aria from the "Fanciulla del West"! :-P I see your point, and if you look at the Katadesmos pic carefully, there just might be a scratch that would turn Γ into a Π. But if so, why did the people with physical access to the tab not read it as ΔΑΠΙΝΑ in the first place? Chronographos 10:50, 28 July 2005 (UTC) (BTW they say that Makron was the dead guy in whose grave [Phi]]la slipped the tab. Isn't it gross?)

"Katadesmos" or "curse tablet"

The term "curse tablet" is found much more often in the scholarly literature than is "katadesmos" (Google Scholar: 103 vs. 11; Google .edu: 67 vs. 12). On the Web at large, "Pella katadesmos" is more popular than "Pella curse tablet", but this includes many WP mirrors and plagiarists, and popular literature. (Interestingly, neither term appears in Scholar or .edu.) What's more, "curse tablet" is plain English, which is preferred by WP policy, and indeed is the only form used in the quotes in the article. I suggest we move the article to "Pella curse tablet". Comments? --Macrakis 16:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me; how's the web with "-wikipedia"? Septentrionalis 19:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Excluding the term 'Wikipedia' only removes the honest mirrors, not the many plagiarists; if you look at the search results, you'll see that there is a huge amount of copying of the same few texts, some from Wikipedia, others from who knows where. These days, using random text from Wikipedia (often without acknowledgement) is used as a search engine spamming technique.... Scholar, .edu, and Books (9:0) are more reliable that way. --Macrakis 16:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I must agree; another problem is that katadesmos shows up outside Rnglish, and "curse tablet" doesn't. When I looked for English pages that exclude one and not the other, and avoided the key phrase "curse or magic spell" there were about a dozen valid google results each way. Moving. Septentrionalis 19:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Curse or Prayer

It may be argued that, based on the translation, this is both a prayer and a curse. Note that the woman "prays" that:

1. Dionysophon wed the woman praying,
2. that may he not wed any woman but the woman and
3. that she may grow old with him and
4. that [the demons e.g gods etc.] have mercy on her

But that she also prays that Dionysophon wed her instead of Thetima and that Thetima should "perish miserably".

From a formal magickal perspective, this is not purely a curse regardless of the formal first line -- heck it is a typical ignorant prayer. IMO. SunSw0rd 22:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Etymology of Dionysofon

On June 21, 2006, Tasoskessaris changed Dionysophon's etymology from "light of" to "voice of Dionysus". This doesn't make sense: Διονυσοφῶν is clearly from *Διονυσοφά(h)ων (via Crasis), and its genitive Διονυσοφῶντος is cleary from *Διονυσοφά(h)οντος, so the most obvious meaning is indeed "light of Dionysus". However, since I haven't found the appropriate references for this etymology, I won't insert it to the article yet. But I did remove the (unreferenced, and morphophonologically unjustifiable) etymology of Διόνυσος + φώνη. --Omnipaedista (talk) 05:37, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Carlos Quiles: A Grammar Of Modern Indo-European: Language & Culture, Writing System & Phonology, Morphology And Syntax as reference

This particular reference was deleted as unreliable. Apart of Fut's opinion I would be interested in having a second academic opinion about its notorious unreliability only to be sure that this is not a personal opinion but a well established fact. Nothing more. Thanks. --Factuarius (talk) 02:27, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

This book is the work of an amateur enthusiast who has been trying to "reconstruct" Indo-European as a modern language, to be used as the common language of Europe. The book is cobbled together from various sources; its chapters on individual ancient languages – including that on Ancient Macedonian – are essentially copied from Wikipedia itself. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:18, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

And why is notoriously unreliable? --Factuarius (talk) 14:27, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are notoriously not reliable sources. Would a book that consists of ripped-off Wikipedia articles be a reliable source? Think. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:41, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I see, OK. --Factuarius (talk) 14:44, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Other "Doric" texts

Where the intro talks about "four" Doric texts from Macedonia, I've changed "may" to "might", and removed the explicit reference to the item that somebody here on Wikipedia has chosen to call the Phiale of Megara (not that that's an established term, BTW). I know that one(!) author has tentatively suggested this object might be of local Macedonian provenance, but the mainstream view given everywhere else, including the reference that was actually cited together with the "phiale", assigns it squarely to Megara in southern Greece. This (otherwise not very notable) item was merely found in Macedonia but was almost certainly produced elsewhere. Mentioning it in the lead, and with the implied suggestion that its alleged Macedonian provenance is anywhere near established, means giving undue weight to what is in all likelihood a simple, isolated error on the part of one scholar. (As we discussed over at Phiale of Megara, O'Neil based his claim on the erroneous belief that the text fails to show a certain Megarian local script form, but the depictions we have of the object clearly show that it in fact has that Megarian form – meaning that O'Neil never actually looked at it.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Translations in standard Ancient Greek and Modern Greek would be useful

The Pella curse tablet text is only translated into English. Translations in standard Ancient Greek and Modern Greek would be useful in order to show the similarities between those Greek language variants. 2A02:2F07:91EF:FFFF:0:0:4F72:9391 (talk) 21:00, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Comparison with Hesychius' glossary's words

A comparison with the language variant of the Hesychius' glossary based on the phonetic features of the words would be extremely interesting. In the English wikipedia page of Ancient Macedonian it is said that some Ancient Macedonian words in Hesychius' glossary "reveal, for example, voiced stops where Greek shows voiceless aspirates". It would be interesting to know if the same linguistic phenomenon occurs in Pella curse tablet's words. 2A02:2F07:91EF:FFFF:0:0:4F72:9391 (talk) 21:00, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

No proof whatsoever that Ancient Macedonian was not Greek

There is absolutely no proof that Ancient Macedonian was a different language from Ancient Greek: the fact that sometimes Ancient Macedonian words (from Hesychius' glossary) "reveal voiced stops where Greek shows voiceless aspirates", meaning b,d,g, instead of ph, th, kh is analogous to a similar, yet not identical phenomenon that occurs in German, i.e. within the same language, between dialects of the same language: Low German lopen vs. (High/literary/standard) German laufen, Low German riek, German reich. This Ancient Macedonian shift constitutes by no means a proof that Ancient Macedonian was no Ancient Greek dialect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Graecophile (talk • contribs) 15:41, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Yawn. Another Greek nationalist pushing an agenda. The data are inconclusive either direction. That's the problem and "Graecophile" (with his obvious agenda) simply doesn't know how to accept the lack of evidence. --Taivo (talk) 20:56, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Sorry Taivo, but can you ACTUALLY speak the language? I am telling you this because an average speaker of the modern demotic with basic knowledge of the attic dialect can read the tablet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.177.24.249 (talk) 06:45, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Ancient and Modern Greek translations of the Pella curse tablet text

An Ancient Greek translation to the text of the Pella curse tablet would be very useful for comparison purposes. Modern Greek is probably less similar to Ancient Macedonian than Ancient Greek was.

Relationship between Ancient Macedonian and Ancient Greek compared to the one between Baltic and Slavic languages

Ancient Macedonian language is much more similar to Ancient Greek than Latin or any other ancient language is to Ancient Greek. They might not have been been two dialects of the same language but then again there is no precise criterion for distinguishing bewteen language and dialect. The most similar Indo-European languages to the Slavic languages are the Baltic languages. Let's image that nowadays there exists only 1 Slavic language (for instance Russian) and no Baltic language anymore. In such a case the Russian nation is the sole descendant not only of all the other Slavic nations but also of the Baltic nations. This means that in a potential conflict between Russians and Germans or Finno-Ugrics (Finns/Estonians) for the territories of the former Baltic nations Russians are the only ones with historical rights to own and inhabit them.

Ancient Macedonian as Ancient Greek dialect

(Ancient Macedonian) Berenike vs. (Ancient Greek) Perenike vs. (Modern Greek) Fereniki (the modern Greek word has a transcription into English that begins with a "Ph-", just like the ancient one but the pronunciations differ) According to some "linguists'" and "historians'" "logic" Ancient Greek (other than the Macedonian dialect) is not only a different language from Modern Greek but also totally unrelated because the Ancient Greek word "Perenike" is "very different" from Modern Greek "Fereniki". According to it Modern and Ancient Greek are supposedly as "closely related" as Ancient Greek and Latin, or Modern Greek and Icelandic. Berenike and Perenike are words of different dialects of the same language (Ancient Greek) just like Low German lopen relates to (High/literary/standard) German laufen (= to run, "to leap"), Low German riek, (High) German reich (=rich). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Graecophile (talk • contribs) 23:46, 2 December 2020 (UTC)