Talk:Pedal point

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Definition[edit]

  • "Pedal point is one of the earliest devices for creating dissonance to be found in Western music. It consists of a sustained note (typically in the bass--hence the reference to the pedal notes of the organ) that is held through chaning harmnoies in the other parts. The pedal note need not be literally sustained; it may appear in patterned or non-patterned rhythmic configurations that can actually include rests. Nevertheless, the aural effect of a sustained pitch must be clear. A pedal point can also appear in middle or upper parts but in any case will be on the tonic or dominant pitch in the vast majority of instances. The overall effect of pedal point is to create tension and increase harmonic interest." (p.132) "Pedal and ostinato are particularly suited to modal harmony, as their relentless, repetitive character help to establish and confirm the modal center." (p.133)
    • Rawlins, Robert (2005). Jazzology: The Encyclopedia of Jazz Theory for All Musicians. ISBN 0634086782.

Hyacinth 11:08, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Non-chord tone?[edit]

Unhappy with this statement: "A pedal point is a "non-chord tone", which puts it in the same musical categories as suspensions, retardations, and passing tones."

  • It's a non-chord tone only for part of its duration.
  • Lumping it in with suspensions, retardwhats?, and passing tones is dangerous.

Tony (talk) 12:37, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's highly unlikely to cause injury and is indeed a nonharmonic tone (Benward & Saker (2003). Music: In Theory and Practice, Vol. I, p.99. Seventh Edition. ISBN 978-0-07-294262-0.). It is distinguished as a "nonharmonic tone involving more than three pitches" (p.98), if that makes it seem more safe. Hyacinth (talk) 21:58, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, you're missing the point: a pedal point is dissonant with its immediate surroundings for only part of its duration. That's in the definition above. These idiots Benward and Saker are playing loose with wording. You can't label the chord per se as non-harmonic if it's harmonic for part of its duration. Tony (talk) 00:12, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I assume that in your last sentence you mean "one" instead of "you" and "tone" instead of "chord".
You seem to be missing the point that nonharmonic tones always involve more than one tone.
The standard for this article is not your preference but actual usage. You may feel that one should not be allowed to label a pedal point as such, but that doesn't mean that anyone is actually disallowed.
Lastly, I have cited a source which shows that, indeed, pedal points are labeled nonharmonic tones. You have yet to cite a source which shows that they are not labeled as such. Hyacinth (talk) 02:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Nonharmonic tones. In harmonic analysis, generic term for tones that are foreign to the harmony of the moment and occur as melodic 'ornamentations' in one of the parts." That is what it says in the Harvard Dictionary of Music. "The pedal is the one exception among the nonharmonic tones in that it is not melodic." That is what it says in Piston's Harmony. I have read lots of books about theory. They don't all say the same thing. Teenly (talk) 22:53, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So Walter Piston includes the pedal "among the nonharmonic tones" and the Harvard Dictionary implicitly excludes it because it is not a "melodic ornamentation". I do not believe it is our mandate to decide between two such authorities. Both terminologies should be presented, and any other that is supported by equally good authority. I fully understand Tony's sense of the absurdity of calling a tone which is part of the chord of the moment a "non-chord tone", but as I understand it, we are here to report existing usages, even when they are absurd. Fenneck (talk) 18:10, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Intro[edit]

The intro used to have a sourced definition:

Which has been replaced by

  • "In tonal music, a pedal point (also pedal tone, pedal note, organ point, or pedal) is a sustained tone, typically in the bass, during which at least one foreign, i.e., dissonant harmony is sounded in the other parts."

for no apparent reason. Hyacinth (talk) 02:38, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, Hyacinth has spoken. We can choose our sources to provide a definition that isn't faulty. Otherwise, why don't you dredge up several hundred and we'll deal with all of them in turn. I've pointed out why the current one is not ideal. It should not be used, and nor should the ref.
The second bullet here is much better. Tony (talk) 03:08, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No need to be rude.
How do your concerns in the section above (#Non-chord tone?) address this content?
What sources where chosen for the latter content?
Hyacinth (talk) 03:29, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Many years ago, C H Kitson observed "that we may use above it chords of which of which it is not an essential factor. Some argue that this is a necessity, but a pedal is surely an effect, quite independent of any question as to what harmonies are used in conjunction with it." (emphasis in the original) Fenneck (talk) 18:48, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Popular music[edit]

Elton John's song Nikita essentially got a pedal note synth solo. Worth mentioning in the article? N1mr0d (talk) 22:14, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Graphic with the caption "Pedal point example" has a wrong note[edit]

Graphic has a wrong note in the middle voice of the keyboard style harmony on the last chord. It should be a G4 instead of F4. The mid file opens with the correct note. I do not know how to substitute a correct jpg for the one posted but would like to learn. Robert Winslow (Tampa) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.35.253.220 (talk) 14:15, 30 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Removed[edit]

I removed the above due to lack of citations. Hyacinth (talk) 09:36, 19 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Monophonic audio/score example at the top[edit]

It's not a good example. The non-harmonic pitches against the bass are tones, not triads, and the dissonant notes appear to be passing tones. I think it should be removed. Tony (talk) 11:58, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Notation and sound recording[edit]

The notated music example does not match the sound recording. It is probably the notated example that is wrong, as that ends on a dissonance, a dominant 7th. If the final written chord is changed so that the 2nd note from the top is a G rather than the F given here, that would make it a tonic chord, creating a final consonance and matching the recording. -- User:2a00:23c7:8783:f701:dc8f:7f91:ec86:e784 2022-05-14T09:15:34

(copied from the top of the article, where it doesn't belong --Macrakis (talk) 20:55, 15 May 2022 (UTC))[reply]

Sustained high notes[edit]

Is the sustained high note in Everybody Loves the Sunshine considered a pedal point, even though it's high-pitched? How about the multiple different high notes in Butcher Brown's Tidal Wave? --Macrakis (talk) 22:12, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Popular music - Supertramp[edit]

Quite a number of Supertramp songs had pedal tones in them. Most particular is "Even In the Quietest Moment," which has a sustained pedal tone under all but a small portion of the verses.

Nsayer (talk) 03:44, 20 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Erlkönig[edit]

Not really a good example of inverted pedal, since the harmony is static. I'm sure we can find a better one. —Wahoofive (talk) 16:29, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think the most highly positioned example (begins "Dm9") is a poor example indeed, and should be removed. Tony (talk) 01:48, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

placing it in the categories alongside[edit]

clumsy English. Please only edit English language wikipedia if you are a native speaker or are sure you have an equivalent level of attainment. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:F02A:633E:F3E5:B8E1 (talk) 08:09, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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