Talk:Peñas de Cabrera

Initial Notes on the translation ~ Lead

@Twofingered Typist, Corinne, Checkingfax, Barte, Sainsf, and Pdebee:

Hello Doug Weller, I completed the translation of the lead, a rough draft in a way but perhaps not too rough. I am rather pleased considering that time was a bit short today. I can work on the flow and refine the English later, but the purport of the original meaning is in good stead I believe. I left in the original Spanish, albeit in strikeout format. It might be good that I delete this since one can always refer to the diff or, better still, the original Peñas de Cabrera article in Spanish. I see the '== Notes ==' and '== References ==' sections don't work, but perhaps this is normal for a user page and we'll see the correct results when moved into mainspace. ...much more later. kind regards, Natalie Desautels _{…as within, so without} 22:05, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

PS. I thought it best to move the discussion here, instead of spread over several talk pages. Natalie Desautels _{…as within, so without} 22:07, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Natalie.Desautels Natalie, "became known, scientifically, by the University of Málaga" doesn't make sense. Do you mean that at this time the university first became aware of, or first learned about, the caves? What's the difference between becoming known and becoming known scientifically that you are trying to highlight with the word "scientifically"?  – Corinne (talk) 02:19, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Hello Corinne. Many thanks for your input. I meant that the university's initiative was the first attempt to actually do research in the area (through archaeological surveys, tracings, topographical mappings and an inventory of rock and cave paintings.) Before the university's involvement, only the local population and tourists would visit this picturesque area, but no scientific research was done and no discoveries made. But the university's archaeological team left no stone unturned (...pun intended :)). The university's initiative provided the impetus for further investigations and set the foundation for all future research. So perhaps I might say something like this:

• In the early 1970s the University of Málaga began research in Peñas de Cabrera, focusing particularly on its rock and cave paintings. Thereafter the area became well known to the scientific community, as the University had set the foundation for all subsequent exploration. The shelters and caves were later studied by eminent researchers who carried out archaeological surveys, tracings, topographical mappings and drew up an inventory of rock and cave paintings. One hundred and thirty five cave paintings spread out over twenty shelters were discovered.

kind regards, Natalie Desautels _{…as within, so without} 09:46, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm busy with an Arbitration Committee case and some real life archaeology stuff, but this is great! Doug Weller talk 18:33, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Doug Weller You are most welcome. Thanks for the thumbs up. I should certainly be able to complete everything within the week. The original Spanish was informative but not of high quality and a bit vague at times. So when one translates it literally, one gets the same drift; English refinements will be forthcoming ...the archaeology stuff sounds very interesting. ...be in touch soon. Natalie Desautels _{…as within, so without} 04:55, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

That sounds fine. Instead of "had set the foundation for", how about "had laid the groundwork for"?  – Corinne (talk) 02:25, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Corinne Thank you very much. The original Spanish contained certain vagueness which I lovingly translated quite literally. You noticed this, so I must also thank you for clarifying the point about "became known, scientifically'.

I prefer "had laid the groundwork for" as you suggested, now implemented. kind regards, Natalie Desautels _{…as within, so without} 05:05, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Completed / terminado

@Twofingered Typist, Corinne, Checkingfax, Barte, Sainsf, and Pdebee:

Hello Doug Weller,

I am happy to have finished the Spanish translation, which I quite enjoyed in spite of the original Spanish being rather poor. I think it really is starting to look quite nice and clean. I put in a few extra bells and whistles, like some Notes, External links and so on. And you'll find some templates for the infobox that you might want to fill out and add (un-rem).

I still have to do a copy edit and go over the English with a fine tooth comb, but I do think that it already feels as if it were written in English, and not translated, as this is always the goal.

Let me know how I might be of further help. There are many Google resources in Spanish so if you need a hand translating some of these, you know where to find me . ...let me know if you are as pleased as I am .

kind regards, Natalie Desautels _{…as within, so without} 11:11, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

PS. Oh, ...forgot to mention that it should be moved into mainspace for all to enjoy. I took away the {{NOINDEX|visible=yes}} tag so search engines can find it, so we probably should push it soon. Natalie Desautels _{…as within, so without} 11:16, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Some thoughts regarding wording in the lead

Natalie.Desautels I hope you won't mind if I share some thoughts about the wording of the lead. I'll start with just the first paragraph. I know you worked hard on the translation, and the paragraph is good. There are no grammatical errors. I'll just run some things by you and see what you think. I'll copy the paragraph here for ease of discussion:

• The archaeological site Peñas de Cabrera, replete with craters and natural cavities in the rocks, is located in the municipality of Casabermeja (Spain). The entire area, rife with its natural minerals, rocks and fossils, is named after one of its districts (territories), the Peñas de Cabrera, also known as Las Piedras de Cabrera, although the entire complex of mountains and valleys consists of many shelters revealing rock art of paintings and engravings.

1) The word "craters" is usually used to describe a convex, dish-shaped depression in the earth that has been created by a meteor, an explosion, a volcanic eruption, or a sinkhole. I notice that the word is not used again in the article. If any of these depressions were formed by any of those phenomena, they need to be explained as such in the article. If the depressions were not formed by any of these phenomena, I recommend using a different term, such as "shallow depressions". On the other hand, if they are not important enough to mention elsewhere in the article, perhaps they don't need to be mentioned in the lead at all.

2) The phrase "the entire area" is not completely clear. It's not clear whether you mean just the archaeological site itself, the area surrounding the archaeological site, or the site and the surrounding area. Perhaps say "the surrounding area", or "the entire surrounding area", or "the area surrounding the site".

3) Instead of "its districts", I would give an indication of what kind of district it is (local, county, local administrative, provincial, federal); and don't use "its". If Peñas de Cabrera is the name of that district, say "is named after the....district of Peñas de Cabrera" (or "the... district of the same name").

4) Adding "although the entire complex of mountains and valleys" confuses the sentence. You had just said "the entire area", so there is no need to add a new phrase "the entire complex" (unless the distinction is important and you explain the distinction). Basically, there are too many words in this paragraph. Also, I generally avoid subordinate clauses beginning with "although" so early in an article. Here, you are setting out basic facts and giving a straightforward description. I feel there is no need at this point to introduce the kind of contrast implied by "although".

5) You mentioned "craters" and "natural cavities" in the first sentence. How are "shelters" different from these? What, exactly, are these shelters? Usually, the noun "a shelter" describes something man-made. If they are natural shelters, what are they, really? Are they crevices in the rocks, caves, caverns? And surely the shelters are not all the same shape or size. Are they natural cavities (or crevicees) in the rocks that early humans used as shelters? You could use the phrase "rock shelters", but that should be part of the original description of the area, and how are they different from "natural cavities in the rocks"?

Well, that's all for now.  – Corinne (talk) 17:08, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Some photos that might help.[1] Rock shelters are natural formations. Doug Weller talk 18:40, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

@Doug Weller and Checkingfax: Hi Corinne. I'm very grateful for your visit and of course I'm always so happy to hear from you. Indeed, these are the corrections I envisioned for the most part, and are sorely-needed. I am eager to clarify things later this evening when time is a bit more on my side (hm ...sounds like a song). The original Spanish was quite vague at times, and I used Google searches to get clearer information. Some of the original lack of specifics seeped into the English although my first concern was that it should not feel translated. Now it's time to move onto its meaning more closely and I really appreciate your help, as always. There was a passage about the division of what is found in which 'shelter'—with lots of the 'these' and 'those and 'the former and 'the latter'—that was terribly convoluted, but I worked that out somehow. The word 'shelter' has to be replaced; in this contest it is a natural (not man made) covering, a place providing temporary protection from bad weather, hungry animals and so on; a 'cave' (cavern-like structure?) might work. ...more later. kindest regards, Natalie Desautels _{…as within, so without} 21:12, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

@Doug Weller and Checkingfax: Hi Corinne, I've taken the pleasure to implement several corrections and refinements based on your kind input, sorely-needed indeed.

1) How the 'cave shelters' were formed is explained later in the article. I kind of like the 'rock shelter' term Doug came up with, along with the nice wikilink, so I think we can go with that.

2) The phrase "the entire area" certainly isn't clear, and for good reason. We have here a similar situation to, say, New York city and New York state. But in the case of Peñas de Cabrera it refers to both the smaller and larger areas. So both the archaeological site itself and the area surrounding it have the same name. I opt for "the entire surrounding area". ...And I just noticed a relative clause that must be moved.

3) This again is a bit tricky because no specific kind of locality is mentioned except 'territory'. So I think 'locality' might do. I also like "the district of the same name"

4) Here I meant to say that the larger area of Peñas de Cabrera is rife with its natural minerals, rocks and fossils, and the entire complex of mountains and valleys consists of many shelters revealing rock art of paintings and engravings. So I'll say just that but in two sentences without the and.

5) Doug solved this one saying "containing numerous rock shelters" as a general term for "craters" and "natural cavities". The key is that early humans used them as shelters. I would call them caves or caverns and later on in the article they are described as formed by 'geographical accidents and astrological phenomena'. Indeed, it would be miraculous, really, if they were all the same precise shape or size .

Thanks so much, Corinne. Bye for now. Let me know how it reads now? kind regards, Natalie Desautels _{…as within, so without} 07:34, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Must find time to go over this in detail. Astrology can't make rock shelters, so this is something else. Doug Weller talk 07:52, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

@Corinne and Checkingfax: Hi Doug Weller, ...to err is human. I made a mistake here. The word is astronomical, not astrological, and it is meant in the sense of 'extremely large', 'enormous'. So the phrase is 'geographical accidents and astronomical phenomena', in other words colossal phenomena–like a comet I Imagine? At any rate, I don't like how it sounds so I remmed it out for now, pending further reflection. Natalie Desautels _{…as within, so without} 10:05, 15 May 2016 (UTC)