Talk:Parmesan/Archive 1

Archive 1

Pronunciation (for Americans)

It should be explained (to Americans) that it's pronounced like Parma-zann. For some bizarre reason Americans pronounce it like Parma-shzjzaorn (it sounds like it has some Zs and Js in it somehow). It bears no resemblance to either Parmigiano or Parmesan. (signature and date/time missing) —Preceding undated comment added date.

To what section of the USA does this refer? I live in the Northeast and have only heard the pronunciations "parmuhzhán", "parmuhzhána" and "parmezán" (sorry, I cannot figure out the IPA system). David Spector (talk) 02:05, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

http://www.forvo.com/word/parmesan/ - see the two North American pronunciations. Compltely wrong hypercorrected versions of the word. Please could someone with a knowledge of IPA put the correct pronunciation of "parmesan"? Turkeyphan^t 14:06, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Added (the standard UK pronunciation anyway.) Vilĉjo (talk) 12:44, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Storage

What is the best way to store Parmigiano Reggiano in the kitchen?

In the fridge for a couple of months. --pippo2001 18:56, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Cost of a wheel, possibly error

The phrase Parmigiano Reggiano festival in Modena; each wheel (block of cheese) costs 14 euros! in the last image may be wrong. Here in italy one kilo of Parmigiano cost about 10 euros, and a whole cheese weight about 30 kilos, then the cost should be about 300 Euros. May be i misinterpret the meaning of wheel.Bye --Guam 1 July 2005 13:05 (UTC)

A you can see here (in italian):

• http://www.parmigianoreggianocastellazzo.it/index.php?lan=eng&mod=negozio
• http://www.latterianuovamandrio.it/carrello/mostra-listino.php?Cosa=Dettaglio&idListino=27
• http://www.terredimodena.it/vetrina/?tipo=prodotti&id_cat=5&id=19

The cost of the parmisan is up to 20 euro/kilo. I think the autor has misintended the cost for 1 kilo and the cost for a whole wheel. So, 14 x 35=490 Euros, and i change the text in this way.--Guam 1 July 2005 17:16 (UTC)

The cost of Parmesan varies from country to country. It should be specified. In Italy I bought a 24 months aged parmesan for 9.90 euro/kilo, while the average price is around 12-14 euro/kilo. In France I usually find it for 20-23 euro/kilo, more than the double.

So you can arbitrage ;-) BTW, for how long can you store a wheel of parmesan ? Can it be used as an investment ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.222.184.132 (talk) 12:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Needs a complete rewrite re: geographical protection

This article needs a complete rewrite on the geographical protection issue. In the US "parmesan" is recognised as a generic term for the type of cheese. In the EU, however, the term "parmesan" is (since 2002) legally restricted in the EU as referring to Parmigiano Reggiano. [2] This is something that the EU and the US are in active disagreement over, with the EU attempting to secure global protection for the term, and the US opposing. Some sources:

http://milan.usconsulate.gov/news/NE_ENG_062805_Lynne_Beresford.htm http://www.ictsd.org/biores/05-07-22/story2.htm http://www.dairyreporter.com/news/printNewsBis.asp?id=61223

I'll try to get around to doing this myself, but if anyone else has a chance before, feel free! Blorg 14:51, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality

The POV bits on how much better "true" parmesan is versus the "Americanized" variants need to be sourced or removed. Powers 19:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. One can also wonder, why does the American "Parmesan" needs to be described in such a detail. After all, there are Parmesan-style local cheeses all over the world and outside Europe they can still be called Parmesan and would be equally justified, inclusions to the page. Should we start to add all those non-European "Parmesans"? Z220info 10:53, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Well I don't think each country should have its own section, obviously -- but I think a section on Parmesan-style cheeses in general is important. Powers 14:07, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

the section on "imitations" of Italian Parmigiano-Reggiano is quite inaccurate. Was this article written by a limey? The Kraft brand of parmesan cheese is one of many fairly cheap parmesan cheeses made in America, which vary quite widely in quality. Nor is American parmesan sold already grated all the time. It's commonly sold in wedges or chunks and very often the shaved cheese is refrigerated and not dried and powdered. There needs to be an article on parmesan cheese. Why should there be such precious concern for some economic fiat of the European Union? American and Argentine grana padanas can be quite adequate and far more common in the New World than the imported Italian product. And the cheese is immensely popular. I'm sure hundreds of pounds of North and South American cheese is used for every pound of Italian in the Western Hemisphere. The quality difference certainly exists, but is an exaggerated "conspicuous consumption" issue. NaySay 21:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The article has grown under the tutelage of people of various ethnic extractions (I am a Moonraker); my recollection is that the insistence on the (allegedly excellent) Kraft product being the epitome of American parmesan, and quite as good as anything ‘Made in Italy’, came from an American. I’d support a split—although we have been there before, and I lost the debate against merger. Anyway, one way or another, do try to introduce coverage of high quality American grana cheeses into Wikipedia. But please don’t call them Grana Padano. The Po is an Italian river. —Ian Spackman 22:54, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I can't conceive of how someone could find American Parmesan comparable to Parm Regg, but my individual opinion doesn't matter. The point is that in culinary circles, Parm Regg is almost universally regarded as superior to foreign versions (and commands a premium in the market as a result), and it's not inherently POV to note that. --Soultaco 20:24, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not denying it's better. But it's a tiny fraction of the Parmesan cheese in the world--especially in the Western hemisphere. And there should be something to cover the rest, whether or not it's for the hoi polloi. The rest of us eat too. NaySay 21:43, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Parmesan cheese refers specifically to the grana cheese produced in the rather limited area around Parma, Modena, Bologna and Reggio Emilia. It is a specified trade mark like Coca Cola or Pepsi. Therefore, if a page for foreign cheeses is to be created, it needs to be named either "Parmesan like cheeses" or "grana cheeses" - in the same way a generic Cola page has been created to describe, and link to, the Coca-cola- and Pepsi-cola-like soft drinks. Or, if you prefer, in the same way as Champagne refers specifically to sparkling wines produced in the Champagne hills area in France, whereas all the other similar (and generally qualitatively inferior) products are referred to as sparkling wines. Speaking of quality, it is widely accepted in the gastronomy world that Parmigiano Reggiano is qualitatively superior to the other parmesan-like cheeses, especially the mass-produced ones. The difference stems directly from the particular discipline to which Parmigiano is subjected in order to be able to carry that name (cows feeding, amount of milk, seasoning conditions, quality control, etc.) The remarks about the superiority of Parmigiano Reggiano as compared to other products are entirely based in fact, and do not constitute a POV issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by B part (talk • contribs) 18:57, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Parmesan can't be considered a trade mark as Coca Cola, since it has been protected, in Europe only, much after becoming a common name for that type of cheese. Moreover, the specific name of the italian cheese is Parmigiano-Reggiano. Although the word 'parmesan' is reminiscent of the local origin of the cheese, this is a common and legitimate way of naming products: otherwise you should admit that 'french fries' can be produced only in France! 62.101.126.233 (talk) 02:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Please forgive me, then, for hopping willy-nilly into this vat of fondue! I'm very grateful for the great information in the artice and the hard work that went into researching it, and I thank you. I will try to come up with some information. I'm New Englander married to a "Silly Sussexman" to whom cheese is a religion.  :-) Thanks. NaySay 15:26, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd take issue with this in particular, as a North America-specific difference:

It is often sold grated.

I have no difficulty finding real deal parmigiano reggiano, pre-grated (grattugiato fresco) and bagged, in a German supermarket. Virgilio and other brands, with mostly Italian text on the package even.

The whole section still doesn't cite a single reference. --85.178.40.36 (talk) 17:55, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

As regards the first sentence, "...erroneously called Parmesan in the English Language" -- what's erroneous about it? Things are called different things in different languages. It's no more erroneous than that Firenze is called Florens and Roma is called Rome in English. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.91.226.68 (talk) 21:05, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Aging

Parmigiano Reggiano is aged for a minimum of 12 months, in practice usually for 18-24 months.

The site of the Parmigiano Reggiano consorzio claims that it is aged for at least 24 months and since the whole process is highly regulated and standardized, I doubt that you can find any cheese labeled "Parmigiano Reggiano" that is aged for only 12 months. bogdan 23:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Let me quote the very same website, the list of requirements for a cheese to qualify for Parmigiano Reggiano label: ...the lengthy maturation that must last at least 12 months, but which normally is extended to 2 years.... Therefore it seems that it is possible to sell Parmigiano Reggiano that is only 12 months old. One can, of course, wonder, why isn't the minimum aging period extended to 24 months if all the cheeses are in practice aged for 24 months. Z220info 10:48, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Triva too trivial?

I wonder about the trivia section. While it may in fact be true that some dishwashers dread cleaning dried parmesan, I hardly think that it is worth including in an encyclopaedia. Now, on the other hand, I understand that wheels of parmigiano are so valuable, and their worth so stable, that they are often used as collateral for bank loans. I wouldn't have a clue how to search for a citation for this though, as it was just told to me by a learned Italian gentleman. Anyway, my point is, I think that the trivia section should be removed for now, but I'm new to this, and am unsure of myself. Do people agree? DJsunkid 07:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

If you are new, do be bold (but not too bold lest your heart’s blood should run cold) and remove it. Then don’t be at all upset if someone reverts you. Bear in mind that they won’t know that you are new here. I think that the very first edit I made—rather nervously—to wikipedia was modified within minutes by somebody who was trying to improve my English style. English is my mother tongue. I have a degree in English language and literature from what one might call a top English university. This guy or gal had neither of those advantages. But s/he did indeed improve my English. Wow, Wikipedia is cool I thought, after a few seconds of irritation.

As to the sticky stuff, personally I wouldn’t revert anyone removing that trivium, but for the following reason I would not remove it myself: it is true that parmesan has extraordinary sticking powers to a plate—at least it did to the plates I was washing up this morning—and that fact says something genuine (is organoleptic the word?) about the cheese. It is a fact that any reader can verify for herself. Ideally someone who understands the chemistry involved might come along and explain it. Who knows, they might even be able to show that one can distinguish the genuine (PDO/DOP) article from the the Eastern European or South American copy-cat versions by applying this test.

As to the collateral thing I certainly wouldn’t revert you if you added it. But I would be tempted to do so on the basis that for an article currently this short one trivium should suffice. Google for ‘cheese collateral’ and result number three will indeed come up with the same story. Urban myth or truth, it is hard to say. It is a site that certainly represents an American company that knows a great deal about Italian cheese. But for me there are too many weird mistakes to make it utterly compelling. Ian Spackman 15:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The web site PracticallyEdible confirms that parmesan wheels can indeed be collateral. You learn something every day... MrHumperdink 05:12, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

(http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/encyclopaedia!openframeset&frame=Right&Src=/edible.nsf/pages/ed.0930!opendocument)

Parmesan: The fast food dish

I was thinking that the fast food dish common in North East England called a Parmesan should be mentioned in the article. I'm considering creating a section, or maybe a seperate article. A parmesan in this sense is fried coated chicken, with a layer of white sauce and cheese on top, finished in the grill. A very popular fast food dish in this area. Any comments? Mouse Nightshirt 22:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Um ... I've lived in the North East (in fact in Durham) for nearly nine years and I've never heard of this ... are you sure it's common/popular up here? I eat out all over the place and am quite confused ... --JennyRad 22:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It's the main take out dish in the Middlesboro area (Middleboro, Stockton, Hartlepool). It's not the kind of dish available on an "eat out" basis (ie, its pretty much strictly found in fast food take aways. It does deserve a mention as it is a part of the culture of the above mentioned areas. Mouse Nightshirt 23:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds worthy of a separate article to me. —Ian Spackman 08:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely fascinating, Mouse Nightshirt. It must be really highly Teesside specific; people in Durham are continuing to look at me blankly. Is the cheese involved actually parmesan (in which case it would probably be appropriate on this page), or is it a completely unrelated use? --JennyRad 09:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Having done further research - my data suggests that the "parmo" (nominally short for parmesan but the term is rarely used) is entirely unrelated to actual parmesan cheese. Which being so - I'd suggest either making a new article about it (seems a bit excessive unless there are other examples of similar foods which have their own articles) or else including it in either a Teesside article or a Fast Food article. And then linking to it from here, perhaps. I'm about to go away and won't have time to do it; if Mouse Nightshirt hasn't done it when I get back, I'll put it somewhere. Cheers, --JennyRad 08:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, actually I think a seperate article would be the best idea, I'll try and put one up when I have the time. Currently moving out of my flat at the minute, so I'll put a stub up tomorrow. Mouse Nightshirt 22:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Hold on, there already seems to be an article already on the Parmo. Maybe a disambugiation page with this as the initial redirect might be a better idea? Mouse Nightshirt 22:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Added a hatnote to that effect. Vilĉjo (talk) 12:56, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Merge?

I'm proposing the two parmesan articles be merged. Objections? Kendrick7 17:16, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that Parmigiano Reggiano should have its own article, as is the current position. Firstly because it is a notable cheese in its own right. Secondly because it is preferable that PDO products have their own article, rather than being a section of a more general article. —Ian Spackman 02:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

actually the parmigiano reggiano is parmesan cheese  !! is simply a translation , then please remove all the fake copies of american parmesan ! if you talk about Rolex you don't make an article talking about chinese fake rolex !!

Why not have an article on fake Rolex watches? —Ian Spackman 00:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

But Parmesan cheese is not necessarily Parmigiano-Reggiano (yet) - The name Parmesan is protected in Europe but not yet in other parts of the world. But maybe I'm most confused that there are multiple page addresses all showing the same thing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmesan_cheese and /Parmigiano-Reggiano and /Parmigiano_Reggiano) Why are these distinct pages rather than redirects (I'm not too familiar with the technical details of Wikipedia - so maybe it's normal)--Hghoffman (talk) 11:49, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Redirecting to Talk:Parmesan cheese no longer

Previously attempts to edit this page have been redirected to Talk:Parmesan cheese. As that was utterly confusing I have reinstated this page. Note though that relevant discussions have taken place on that page and that—in as much as the two articles are related—they may well continue to do so. —Ian Spackman 13:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Reclassification of Parmigiano Reggiano as Grana Padano

I am moving the following statement from the article here for discussion/verification:

Cheese which fails to meet these criteria is removed and reclassed as the lesser grana Padano cheese.

Since Grana Padano is also a PDO cheese, and since its zone of production does not overlap that of Parmigiano Reggiano such a reclassification would appear to be fraudulent. Of course I am not claiming that fraudulent practices don’t occur in the Italian dairy industry—Parmalat, anyone? And I am not even asserting that something of the sort could not happen legally—perhaps when the cheese is sold outside of the EU. Indeed it would be very interesting if the statement proved to be true. But I think it does need to be clarified and referred to a reliable source if it is to be reinstated. —Ian Spackman 13:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Oops, It looks like I got misinformed and passed it on. I had not noticed the areas of production did not overlap. I won't put that rumor back in the article without serious confirmation. And I'll stop regarding that magazine as a reliable source. --Svartalf 14:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Never mind. An un-named magizine is a better source than most cited on Wikipedia! And, as I said, it might be true. Cheers —Ian Spackman 15:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I can name it : it was Geo ... There has been dispute as to their reliability. Now, it's a bad minus till proven otherwise. --Svartalf 15:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

(Sorry for the slow reply: somehow I have only now spotted your second comment.) I agree with you: it really does look like a piece of sloppy journalism. The writer may have just made it up, because it seemed a plausible answer to the genuinely interesting question: ‘What happens to the stuff that doesn’t make the grade?’ Alternatively s/he may have hit on some genuine piece of information while failing to notice that its ramifications ought to lead to a decidedly decent scandal. Parmigiano-Reggianogate: there was a journalistic reputation to be made there! —Ian Spackman 13:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

This cannot be true for a simple reason: the Grana Padano is not an inferior quality of Parmigiano Reggiano, it is another cheese entirely and it is regulated by a production discipline that is as strict as the one of the PArmigiano Reggiano. You cannot turn one cheese into another pretty much in the same way that you cannot sell Coca-Cola as Pepsi. And this cannot be done even illegally - the Grana PAdano is clearly branded on the outer crust as is the Parmigiano Reggiano. Since the branding is done during the production of the wheel, turning Parmigiano into Grana would require to scrape away the Parmigiano marking and inscribing the Grana PAdano markings. Not impossile to do, but hardly practical, not to mention that it could cost the producer the licence to produce. B part 19:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Please create "parmigiano reggiano" redirect

Actually, "Parmigiano reggiano" (small "R") should be the correct title, as that's how it's written in Italian. Thanks. 205.228.73.13 14:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Uhm, apparently the proper name is "Parmigiano-Reggiano" (dash, capital "R"), but redirects should be good anyway. Can somebody with an account please create them? Thanks. 205.228.74.12 14:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I added a redirect. --Vince | Talk 17:35, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Requested move 2007

• Support: I am suggesting this move from Parmigiano Reggiano to Parmigiano-Reggiano because the officially registered name of the cheese, as an EU PDO product, for instance, includes the hyphen. (It will need an admin to make the move because of the page histories—otherwise I’d be bold.) —Ian Spackman 16:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This article has been renamed from Parmigiano Reggiano to Parmigiano-Reggiano as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 18:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Production

The section on Production seems to leave out a major step in the process. Some kind of heating or cooking apparently takes place. This is implied in the previous section, but never explicitly stated in the production section. I think it's very important in the case of cheese to be very precise in this regard since cheese making in general has the same few basic steps. It is the very small variations in the process which produce the very large variations in finished cheeses. I'd like to see the production process written more precisely as a series of discreet steps.

I have added some more detail on the initial cheese making process - details from a Parmigiano Reggiano Consortium press-kit (May 2006) and personal experience visiting the consortium and viewing the cheesemaking process. --Hghoffman (talk) 21:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Vegetarian "Parmesan"

Am I correct in concluding from this article that "authentic" Parmigiano Reggiano, as defined by the EU, is not suitable for vegetarians? It appears that cheese made without rennet cannot be labelled as Parmesan in Europe (I have seen vegetarian alternatives sold under names like "Vegetalia"). If this is the case, I think it's worth mentioning in the article. Perodicticus (talk) 11:13, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand the question. Are you asking about "Parmesan"? They don't use that in Europe, do they? Is it "vegetarian", as defined by the "EU" that matters? How can they define "suitable"? Where have you seen such alternatives, and what do they say on the label? Which names are "like Vegetalia", and are you sure that spelling's right? Unfree (talk) 04:33, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

This is correct. For Parmigiano Reggiano to use the name, it is required to be made with calf rennet and is not suitable for vegetarians. Vegetarian alternatives are not allowed to use the name, or the name 'parmesan', and are usually sold as 'pasta cheese' or 'hard cheese', though there are some varieties that use alternative names.314159 (talk) 22:06, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

History: from Treasure island by Robert Louis Stevenson

"Well, Jim," says he, "just see the good that comes of being dainty in your food. You've seen my snuff-box, haven't you? And you never saw me take snuff, the reason being that in my snuff-box I carry a piece of Parmesan cheese — a cheese made in Italy, very nutritious. Well, that's for Ben Gunn!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.149.184.81 (talk) 17:46, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Spelling

I never realized the English word for ordinary "Parmigiana" cheese was so complicated. (Note that both "a la" and the French and Italian words for cheese are feminine.) What was this common, ordinary cheese called in the 20th century, when Italian restaurants were popular among the American middle class, and nobody heard of either "Reggiano" or "Parmigiano"?

Perhaps we were more free-spirited after WWII, but I can remember going into Italian restaurants and putting on the most atrocious Vaudeville- or Hollywood-inspired phony Italian accents, complete with gestures from politically incorrect slapstick comedy, and our thoroughly "Americanized" Italian-American hosts would chime right in with the "fun". We pronounced it as they did, dropping the final vowel to show we (and they) weren't putting on airs, trying to sound like cultivated, or northern Italians.

We Americans could pronounce the "zh" sound in "garage" with no problem, and we Americanized the pronunciation "parmazhon", with the accent on either the first or last syllable, according to mood. I suppose some people figured that since Parma was spelled with a final a, that it should be "Parmagiana", but it took awhile for the word to arrive from Italy that they were wrong.

The orthological ramifications are staggering. (Don't click on that link, because it's wrong. What I mean is spelling, but I'm using a more precise, cosmopolitan (read "universal", "global", or "metropolitan", etc.) word, and don't click on that one either, because I'm using it in the ordinary sense, which hasn't arrived yet. WWW dictionaries say "ortholog" was coined in 1971.)

But I'm interested in how it appeared on the labels in supermarkets. I need to refresh my memory. Unfree (talk) 03:23, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

The Italian for cheese is formaggio which is masculine so Parmigiano would be the correct descriptor for a cheeses from Parma. Before Parmigiano-Reggiano and Grana Padano were distinguished in the mid 20th Century, it sounds like this type of cheese was particularly associated with the city of Parma - hence Pepys talking about Parmesan cheese and presumably in Italy it would have often been called formaggio Parmigiano.--Hghoffman (talk) 16:41, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Safe for Lactose Intolerant people?

I have heard that this kind of cheese is safe for lactose intolerant people. People have told me that the aging breaks down the lactose, but I am skeptical. Can someone please research and report back in this article. Seems like an important fact to have in this article. --98.218.46.137 (talk) 01:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Use of cellulose

The article doesn't seem to mention processed cellulose powder (sodium methylcellulose). In the USA, this is almost always added to shredded Parmesan to keep the shreds from sticking to each other. David Spector (talk) 02:12, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

The "king of cheese"

Hi. Of all the trivia i've seen, I have not seen one bit about Parmigiano-Reggiano's title, the king of cheese. Please have somebody put in the origin of this title, as i have already edited the main page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clammybells (talk • contribs) 06:18, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

It is only one of a number of cheeses to be dignified with that title by their various fans. Others with no less claim to the title include Roquefort, Stilton, Comté and Époisses. The Époisses article attributes the title to "the famous epicure Brillat-Savarin"; without a similarly authoritative attribution, I don't think this belongs in the lead. Vilĉjo (talk) 12:09, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Parmesan

Look, parmesan quite rightfully disgusts me. They rip out a calfs stomach and blend it into its mothers milk. There is nothing more perverse, but one thing is for certain, it is called parmesan in the English language. Does that count for the EU? Well that's where English was to be found the last time I looked. Surely I am wrong about the name because the EU would abuse the law to promote culture. I mean if the EU spoke everything changed, right? I have other tabs open on ebay and tescos just to see, and they are calling the rot "parmesan" as they always have. The folk over in Parmagiagaiona might have something to say about that. I can't hear them up here, can you? I never heard of a Periagiannio or whatever and even if the EU is trying to promote it, do you know how we treat advertisements here on Wikipedia, and, did you know that governments are not academic institutions and the reason we fall in love with them all the time is often that they make decisions with little sense or application to the common people? Look, the easy reading part is, search for parmesan and you'll find it because it exists. Search the same spot for Parmigiano-Reggiano and you will not because it doesn't exist. Strictly speaking, yes there is the odd yoke called Parmigiano-Reggiano, but this nonsense that there is no use of the word parmesan because the EU made a decision is just rubbish and opposite to real life. Until Parmigiano-Reggiano becomes the primary topic in actual real life, the article Parmesan cheese is requisite. If the brand names responsible decide to follow the EU directive, then there would have been a point worth supporting. I just go a bit mad when apparently intellegent people get muck washed around between their ears, especially if it doesn't seem to make an obvious difference, and double especially if it's something like a government trying to criminalise A WORD because they couldn't think of any other way to promote tourism in some forgotten old place which is so beautiful all it needs is a few nice photos and everyone is sold on the place. Hold a festival like the rest of us or... look. Everything about this article is just wrong even if it is well written and factual so I don't know why I would even point it out. Nobody else has in years. But in the real world... ~ R.T.G 06:34, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Parmiginao Reggiano is a cheese from Italy, so it has an Italian name. Exactly as Cheddar Cheese is called Cheddar Cheese in Italy (and everywhere else) too. That has nothing to do with EU. If you have never tasted Parmigiano Reggiano I'm just sorry for you. Please, go on eating parmesan. By the way, "intelligent" is spelled with a "i" not a "e". --Dia^ (talk) 08:58, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

You say cheddar cheese is called cheddar in Italy. Fair enough. That is not cheese from Cheddar in England. In fact I live about 5 miles from one of the more popular cheddar cheese makers and I live in Ireland. The only thing called Parmigiana Reggiano over here, was made over there, and unlike your cheddar in Italy, it is not readily available. Parmesan is. Being from Italy you must think that the word parmesan is a joke because nobody is able to use it. Well you are mistaken. Have a check and see what we are calling it and forget about the EU in anything other than politics because they are not an academic institution, far from it, and what they say only counts for words they have said if it amounts to nothing else. It's purely idiotic to say, "We know you don't use this word in your language but we are going to make you on here on Wikipedia, okay?" No. It's foolish. I don't like to see the facts obscured and that is what is happening here. ~ R.T.G 19:39, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Wikipedia's policy (for better or worse) is that the most common name and spelling in English are used. Parmesan or Parmesan cheese is what is used in the USA and, apparently, in the UK. So, let's change the title. 76.126.195.34 (talk) 05:41, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

It is not correct to say that Parma "is not pressed"

The article says that Parmesan is "cooked but not pressed". This is incorrect. One can not make Parmesan without preessing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.76.252 (talk) 21:02, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

external links

the first link that's supposed show how Parmesan is made is not really informative and the second link doesn't work. So I added a third one. Not sure about deleting the second link because the site seems interesting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.86.152.99 (talk) 19:14, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. —Darkwind (talk) 05:23, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

---

Parmigiano-Reggiano → Parmesan – This is the English Wikipedia and we use English for our article titles. As you can see, the dominant common name in English for this cheese clearly is "Parmesan", which already redirects here. Relisted again, see below. Andrewa (talk) 17:25, 19 September 2013 (UTC) Relisted. Favonian (talk) 18:25, 11 September 2013 (UTC). Red Slash 02:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Poll

• Support. No Anglophone uses the cumbersome Italian name. -- Ohc ^¡digame!_{¿que pasa?} 03:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Query None? No one? Are you so sure?--Paul McDonald (talk) 21:44, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Indeed. We English speakers use Parmesan... not this "Parmigiano-Reggiano" thing. Espreon (talk) 05:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment Perhaps many or most, but certainly not all.--Paul McDonald (talk) 21:44, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose: According to the content of the article, these terms aren't really synonymous. There is a section in the article that describes the differences between what is known in North America as "Parmesan" and the main topic of the article, which is something different called "Parmigiano-Reggiano". If the article is going to be moved to this destination, it would also need to be rewritten to primarily discuss the other type of cheese – i.e., the one called "Parmesan". The article section entitled "Parmesan", which is within the section entitled "Similar cheeses", says "Commercial Parmesan cheeses common in North America typically differ from Parmigiano-Reggiano in several ways". —BarrelProof (talk) 16:21, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Perhaps a split is the best option. I'm not an expert on this stuff. Red Slash 22:53, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
    • No, just make it clear in the beginning that the main focus is authentic parmesan and not those imitations North Americans are used to. And, if we must, expand on what we have for the imitations. Espreon (talk) 00:01, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
      • That bit about North American Parmesan being different from the European is a false claim. The section that makes it is not cited. Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 18:31, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - "Parmesan" in North American/Australian usage doesn't refer to the subject of the article. Also EU users will be looking for Parmigiano-Reggiano. And a WP:FORK Parmesan (North American generic cheese) simply isn't notable, it is already covered adequately by two lines at the bottom of this article. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:59, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Parmesan is the cheep stuff you get in a green plastic bottle, and not the same as Parmigiano. Hot Stop talk-contribs 02:29, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH. Genuine Parmigiano-Reggiano is sold in the UK as "Parmesan", per this article and this BBC feature. The PDO applies to "Parmesan" as much as it does to "Parmigiano-Reggiano", according to the ECJ. Ibadibam (talk) 21:41, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose I'm an English speaker and I use Parmigiano-Reggiano. When watching Food Network, it is usually referred to that way as well. Ask any Chef. "Parmesan" comes in a can. "Parmigiano-Reggiano" comes in a wheel.--Paul McDonald (talk) 18:30, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support. The Parmesan/Parmigiano distinction is not a real one. Even in Canada and the USA, real Parmesan is usually called Parmesan. Other editors have explained the British situation. Srnec (talk) 19:53, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support - Per common name, as stated by the others. This is not the EU, it is Wikipedia, and we are not bound by the PDO restrictions. We're also not the Food Network either, on which the Parmigiano-Reggiano usage by its hosts is overly pretentious. By the comments by other contributors, this is the case in the main English speaking countries Wikipedia serves, Australia, Canada, the UK and the US (alphabetically listed). Additionally, that whole claim that we Americans use Parmesan to denote a processed cheese is a whole load of cheese curds. Like any cheese sold in the United States, there are varying levels of quality. You can get the canned crap, fresh shredded or grated, or whole blocks and wheels. When it comes to Parmesan in the US, you can get commercially manufactured and distributed natural Parmesan and you can get artisan, hand made Parmesan that is utterly spectacular. Finally, the claims made in the section that there is some sort of difference between American cheeses and Italian ones appear to be manufactured, original research (as noted by the half dozen or {{citation needed}} templates) designed to support the current naming structure. They play on stereotypes of the fat, lazy American who eats canned spaghetti, frozen dinners and fast food accompanied by canned Budweiser. They ignore the constantly evolving nature of American cuisine and ever growing number of manufacturers of quality, natural cheeses - including major manufacturers. --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 18:58, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support but relisting to consider the alternative below. This article, as currently scoped, describes all of what is known in English as Parmesan, and we have no other article on the important cheeses described at Parmigiano-Reggiano#Parmesan as commercial parmesan. Andrewa (talk) 17:25, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support ... with some open questions. Clearly there is a big difference between "the real thing" and the ersatz versions. But the common name for both has always been Parmesan in English [3] and for that matter in Italian (as Parmigiano, without the -Reggiano [4]). (By the way, I included the word "cheese"/"formaggio" to exclude other uses of the word, like the painter and the adjective for the city in Italian.) Parmigiano-Reggiano is a protected name, which is fine, but it is not the common name in English of this cheese. --Macrakis (talk) 23:26, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Hmm, not that it bears on the discussion, but there's more to the ngrams. Including the hyphen gives a more complete picture: English Italian. Also notice that the curves for Italian are very similar, because every appearance of "formaggio Parmigiano Reggiano" also counts as an appearance of "formaggio Parmigiano". When you account for this, the full name is actually more common in the mid-20th century, and closer to equal in present day. Ibadibam (talk) 23:49, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
  • That article distinguishes Parmigiano Reggiano from parmesan. So should we. Parmesan is an umbrella term for a type of cheese that is, or is similar to, the Italian Parmigiano Reggiano. That is, Parmigiano Reggiano is a type, the original type, of parmesan, but they are not synonyms. Conflating Parmigiano Reggiano with parmesan is like conflating zucchini with squash. An error! The two related but distinct topics should have separate articles. --B2C 03:59, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose move. The terms refer to different topics. Costco knows the difference[5]. So should Wikipedia. I support a split. --B2C 03:50, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Not sure what that link demonstrates, other than Costco selling Parmigiano-Reggiano. It would be more helpful if it indicated a distinction from "Parmesan" somehow. Costco also isn't subject to the European PDO, which considers the terms synonymous. So do U.K. commercial outlets like this. I think it's fair to say, based on the legal situation, that we can expect "Parmesan" and "Parmigiano-Reggiano" to be used interchangeably in Europe in English-speaking contexts. Ibadibam (talk) 20:13, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
    • For starters, it shows that several editors are jumping to erroneous conclusions when they state that "no one" uses the term "Parmigiano-Reggiano"--Paul McDonald (talk) 21:45, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. "Parmesan" is not what this article is really about. If "parmesan" is considered an important enough topic on its own, it can be split off as suggested below (although it doesn't seem necessary with the current amount of content). —  AjaxSmack  00:17, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Under "Parmesan", the Oxford English Dictionary "Of or belonging to Parma...; esp. designating a hard, dry cheese made there and elsewhere in northern Italy." Under "Parmigiano–Reggiano", it has: "A Parmesan cheese of controlled origin, produced in an area around Parma, Reggio Emilia, Mantua, Modena, and Bologna." Under "Parmigiano", it just says "Parmesan cheese." Similarly, the Oxford Companion to Italian Food lists the cheese under Parmesan and discusses the Parmigiano-Reggiano name. It's pretty clear that it's both correct and common to call "Parmigiano-Reggiano" cheese "Parmesan", and that "Parmesan" is a broader definition that includes "Parmigiano–Reggiano". Because the topics are intrinsically linked I don't think a split is necessary at this point but I'm not opposed to the idea.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:36, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Alternative proposal

It seems to me that this article should be split rather than just moved. We need an overview article at parmesan describing the topic that goes by that name in English, including everything from Parmigiano-Reggiano to the stuff that Kraft Foods sell (and others in between, see below), and we also need an article at Parmigiano-Reggiano on that specific cheese. Is that a better solution?

It would also help address the rather snobby POV currently in the article. In Australia at least there are varieties of parmesan that are neither of the extremes currently described, they are sold grated, shredded or shaved, and while they're probably not quite as good as that prepared freshly from the block or wheel they're a lot better than the commercial parmesan currently described, and are widely used by some very good cooks and even commercial chefs. Time is money. That's not the impression the article currently gives to say the least.

If this proposal is adopted then the move becomes almost moot... but not quite. The page history needs to go one way or the other of course. But if it's not, then the move should go ahead, as described above. Andrewa (talk) 17:25, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

It's worth noting that the Simple English Wiki version of this article describes Parmesan as a class of cheeses, and P-R as a member of that class. But the the ruling by the ECJ that "Parmesan" and "Parmigiano-Reggiano" are synonymous for commercial purposes indicates that this distinction is not universal. There seem to be three competing definitions of "Parmesan":

1. The English name for Parmigiano-Reggiano (supported by the ECJ, above, and by the Collins Dictionary;)
2. A term describing any cheese made in the style of Parmigiano-Reggiano, including P-R itself. (not supported by a formal source that I could find, but seems to be fairly common usage)
3. A term describing any cheese made in the style of Parmigiano-Reggiano, excluding the protected, genuine article. (supported by the Food Network, other gourmets)

In my view, this article should follow the second definition, but should be focused on the protected Italian cheese, and include some discussion of other varieties—much as it is now. Ibadibam (talk) 20:25, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Parmesan

As I pointed out during the move discussion last fall, the term "Parmesan" is not universally used to mean Parmigiano-style cheese produced outside the PDO. The use of "Parmesan" as a synonym for "Parmigiano" is well established, especially outside the US (see BBC, Forbes and ECJ. Because the distinction between the two terms varies by region and culture, it's not possible to cleanly divide the topic into two articles. Ibadibam (talk) 18:14, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

There are a couple of sources I used in the article that describe Parmesan as a clearly different cheese than Parmigiano-Reggiano--or as a general term for cheese resembling Parmigiano-Reggiano. The English-language term "Parmesan" may be used in the United Kingdom and Ireland to describe only Parmigiano-Reggiano, but that's not the case outside of those countries. (Even within those countries, while officially products that are similar may not be described as "Parmesan", people still may refer to them, informally, as Parmesan.) Generally speaking, the term "Parmesan" refers to cheese in the style of Parmigiano-Reggiano--not the specific cheese with the specific requirements by law that the article here describes. Red Slash 20:36, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

For starters, could you identify those sources? The ones from the article I looked at didn't support that distinction, nor can I independently find any evidence that the "Parmigiano is not Parmesan" notion is held anywhere outside North America, particularly in cookbooks and marketing materials. The mere fact that there's inconsistency from region to region is good evidence that there's not a clear difference between the topics, and recent semantic trends in the North American food industry isn't really a good basis for splitting an article. This has been hashed out above and there was no consensus on what "Parmesan" means or whether a split or renaming would be appropriate. Ibadibam (talk) 19:55, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

The three I used in the new article were this, this, and this. I think they address your concerns well. I see three possible resolutions.

1. PR is the original variety of what is now the broader "Parmesan" category, where PR has its specific requirements and P does not, making them not the same exact subject and probably necessitating two different articles. Kraft (etc.) is P, but not PR, and should only be included in the P article. This is the status quo (since a week ago or so).
2. P and PR are different names for the same, narrowly defined, cheese. Kraft's version (etc.) is a knockoff and not truly P cheese. There should be one article, which would include a section on knockoff cheeses such as Kraft's and explicitly call it a knock-off, and that article should be placed at its English-language name, which is Parmesan (see ngrams in the move request).
3. P and PR are different names for the same, broadly defined, cheese. (I don't think this is the case, but I'm including it here because it's logically possible. I think the sources disagree.) In this case, Kraft (etc.) is a perfectly valid P cheese and is listed in the article. Since P and PR are the same cheese under different names, we go with the English name, Parmesan, and move the article.

You tell me which one fits our reader's needs and expectations best. Or maybe I missed a possibility! Red Slash 21:09, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. Funnily enough, I raised similar possibilities above, in the #Alternative proposal subsection My sense is that our readers' needs and expectations will vary by region and culture. My further sense is that we'll never reach consensus on the most appropriate way to split the topic on Wikipedia, and that a single article that discusses the broad concept and gives due attention to semantics (see Parmigiano-Reggiano#Outside Europe) is the best way to move forward collaboratively. Incidentally, my personal interpretation matches your #3 above: P and PR are essentially the same cheese, but have varying narrowness and regulations in different jurisdictions (P and PR are identical under European law, but only PR is protected (by trademarks) in the US. Other places may treat it differently altogether). But I don't think that my opinion is more valid than the other possibilities, and don't think it's proper to make an arbitrary split along that or any other line. Ibadibam (talk) 01:11, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, PR has a PDO that leads to a series of specific requirements; no other "Parmesan" cheese has those requirements. In the EU (in English) the word P can only be used to describe PR legally, but clearly the word P is used in the U.S. at least for cheeses that are not PR. If PR is a wholly contained subset of P, then we should have two articles (as in duck and bird). We know the word P can be used to describe PR cheese (with its PDO)--but I would say nobody in the U.S. or anywhere else would use the term PR to refer to anything but the PDO cheese. That's why I consider #3 unlikely. I don't think P and PR are different names for the same cheese because PR, I don't think, would ever be used to refer to Kraft canned cheese. (Seriously, would you ever imagine someone saying "Please pass the Parmigiano-Reggiano" to ask for the Kraft Parmesan??) This, then, makes it seem to me that the two are not interchangeable. Should we call up an RfC and see what other people think? Red Slash 07:00, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Ok, starting an RfC below. You're right that PR never means an imitation, and it was clumsy of me to suggest that. The variability is really on the definition of P, as you said, and whether it is synonymous with, inclusive of, or exclusive of PR. And I think the answer is "all three, depending on whom you ask". Ibadibam (talk) 23:48, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

RfC on Parmesan/Parmigiano-Reggiano split

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should the recent split of Parmesan and Parmigiano-Reggiano be maintained, and if so, how should the two topics be defined? See #Requested move and #Proposed merge with Parmesan above for recent relevant discussions. Ibadibam (talk) 23:48, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Survey

• One article - too difficult to reach consensus on just what "Parmesan" is, per the previous discussions. One article can discuss the different meanings much more effectively than two. Ibadibam (talk) 23:48, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
• Two articles - both the PDO Parmigiano-Reggiano and the general style of cheese known as Parmesan in North America (and elsewhere?) are reasonably distinct, independently notable and worthy of having separate articles. Red Slash 04:49, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
• Two articles is okay but not required, per WP:SUMMARY, WP:N, etc. In this case they make sense, since the topics are distinct (except in the case of European English use of the term "Parmesan" which means Parmigiano-Reggiano, a fact explained at both articles adequately), and both are well-sourced, though the Parmesan article remains WP:STUBby. See List of Italian PDO cheeses; we clearly do have articles on specific protected domain of origin cheeses, and do not fold them into more general articles. See also Category:American cheeses, etc., in which we also clearly have articles on broad types of cheeses (e.g. Monterey jack) that are not regional specialties and which (like many brands of "Parmesan") are often processed cheese food, not real cheese. I don't see any clear rationale for merging these articles. Modern Parmesan is a genercized, North-Americanized urban consumer product that does not fit many if any of the strict definitions of Parmigiano-Reggiano, the regional, artisanal, real cheese it imitates. PS: If you've actually had P-R, you know how different it is from what Americans and Canadians call "Parmesan".  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  21:17, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I should note that, while the difference between true Parmigiano-Reggiano and Kraft's Parmesan is startling, all varieties of Parmesan I've seen are indeed real cheese by any sense of the word. The can of generic Parmesan cheese sitting in front of me (I know! This is a knockoff of a knockoff!) lists as its ingredients: Cow's milk aged over 10 months, Cheese culture, Salt, and Enzymes. (Powdered cellulose added to prevent caking.) With the exception of the tiny amounts of the anti-caking agent, I'm pretty sure that qualifies as "real cheese", not "processed cheese food". Red Slash 07:49, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
    • SMcCandlish, I'm not clear how you propose splitting the topic. Do you think Parmesan should be about a category/class of cheeses, or about a process cheese made in North America? Users in prior discussion, (see comments by Ohconfucius, Espreon, Srnec, Jerem43 and Macrakis) have indicated a preference for treating the terms synonymously. In ictu oculi suggested that a separate article for Parmesan-style cheeses made outside the PDO ("commercial" or "imitation" Parmesan), which is what the new incarnation of Parmesan is, can't establish notability and should just be covered by the original article. Where do you see the line being drawn? Ibadibam (talk) 03:51, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
      • While I respect In ictu oculi, I think he's dead wrong on this; we've got over 400 results in Google Books for "Kraft Parmesan", which is just one incarnation of the variety of cheese. (Some are just ads, but many are not.) I'm not an expert on AFD these days, but I can't imagine that's not going to survive an AFD if we split the articles. ("Nabisco Wheat Thins" scores just 563, only a bit more, yet Wheat Thins sure ain't getting deleted anytime soon.) Red Slash 05:41, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
• They should be merged. Not even North American sources hold the distinction between parmesan and parmigiano that some are insisting on. It would be impossible in many cases to tell if a North American source is referring to just parmigiano, just imitation parmigiano or either. Imitations of the original Italian cheese—which are far less notable—can be handled in a section on this page. Srnec (talk) 14:29, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• Keep separate, but re-title the Parmesan article to Parmesan (American cheese), in order to keep distinct from Parmesan cheese from Italy. The term 'Parmesan' by itself, in most English speaking countries, usually refers to the Italian cheese. (See Merriam-Webster entry and BBC entry) Darx9url (talk) 13:50, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Dictionaries are not generally reliable sources for common usage, which is how we name our articles. I could see a move to Parmesan cheese, however. Red Slash 05:33, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
• Keep separate, since they are two different things. Some years ago the Consorzio del Parmigiano Reggiano tried to forbid legally the usage of the name "Parmesan" for other European cheeses, but lost. This means that - at least in Europe - Parmigiano and Parmesan denote different types of cheese. Alex2006 (talk) 16:44, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I concur. Parmesan deserves its own article, where the different uses (de iure and de facto) of the term should be discussed. Cloverleaf II (talk) 12:09, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
  • You'll be interested to know that the Consorzio eventually succeeded, and the European Court of Justice ruled that the two terms refer to the same product. Ibadibam (talk) 20:42, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
    • I did not know it, thanks! Anyway, as a matter of fact in German supermarkets you can still find for sale German "schrott" :-) called Parmesan. Alex2006 (talk) 05:57, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
• Keep separate as they are popularly recognized as two distinct products. The decision of the ECJ should likely be noted in the Parmesan article. SueDonem (talk) 00:28, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
  • How would you propose the scope of the "Parmesan" article be defined? Ibadibam (talk) 00:33, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Parmesan is the one which is not held to same standards and doesn't have to meet the same requirements. That's why it's usually just an additive or a substitute. SueDonem (talk) 04:11, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

• There's been a lot of back-and-forth on this issue over the last year or so and it more or less boils down to three viewpoints:
  1. "Parmesan" is just the English word for "Parmigiano".
  2. Parmigiano-Reggiano is a special kind of Parmesan cheese, made only in Italy.
  3. Parmigiano-Reggiano is made only in Italy, and Parmesan cheese is made only outside Italy.

  Number 1 is supported by European law. Number 2 is somewhat supported by US trademarks. Number 3 is not supported by any laws or regulations, but is a commonly held view by food enthusiasts in North America. My position is that the differences in interpretation make it too difficult to split cleanly. Ibadibam (talk) 23:48, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

• I agree with Ibadibam. --Fox1942 (talk) 09:36, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

The point is that while all interpretations are questionable, some of them are false. For example, saying that "Parmigiano-Reggiano is a special kind of Parmesan cheese, made only in Italy" means to trivialise the role of parmigiano, which is the archetype of this family of cheeses: Parmigiano was developed first, and all the other cheeses (or cheese preparations) which use this name, american or not, are imitations. This means that we can forget 2). The reality is that Parmigiano is an italian cheese born - at the latest- in the middle age, whose success pushed people outside Italy to develop similar cheeses: these borrowed their name from parmigiano. Alex2006 (talk) 13:00, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Result

I don't quite follow the closer's remarks and there's not a clear result stated. Has I JethroBT determined that there is consensus to maintain the recent split of Parmigiano-Reggiano and change Parmesan from a redirect? Ibadibam (talk) 02:55, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

@Ibadibam: Sorry, I probably should've included a bolded statement that the consensus was to keep the two articles split. Parmesan wasn't a redirect when I closed the discussion and it isn't at this time, so I'm not sure what you mean by "change Parmesan from a redirect." I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 03:23, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt response. Parmesan was a longtime redirect, and the previous effort to establish an article there failed (the move request above, closed as "no consensus" eight months ago). The same editor who made the rejected move request recently made a bold split, removing the redirect to start a new article. The purpose of the above RfC was to provide the discussion that should have preceded that split, and determine whether the split should be maintained or reverted. Ibadibam (talk) 03:47, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Untitled

Should this be mentioned:

The traditional source of rennet is the stomach of slaughtered newly-born calves.

https://www.vegsoc.org/cheese#

?

And is it true? --Mc peko (talk) 22:23, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

A new proposal for Parmesan / Parmigiano

I know I am late to this, and that a decision has been reached, but I can't help but make a new proposal (because the current arrangement is highly confusing to anyone outside the US and I can't understand how it can be said to be satisfactory):

Parmesan becomes a disambiguation page, which states that that term may refer to: (a) Parmigiano-Reggiano, an Italian cheese or (b) Parmesan (US cheese), a cheese produced in the United States which is similar to Parmigiano-Reggiano.

The content currently at Parmesan would of course be moved to Parmesan (US cheese). MrStoofer (talk) 16:11, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

This is probably the best proposal I've seen that adequately addresses the multiple definitions of Parmesan. I think we can fine-tune the proposed title a bit to account for non-US cultures that also treat the term as denoting a "knock-off" cheese. Maybe Parmesan-style cheese? Ibadibam (talk) 19:24, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I pretty much agree, except that "(US cheese)" is not a correct characterization. The term Parmesan (in English or French) or its equivalents in other languages has been used for a long time to refer to "Parmesan-type" cheeses.

although the appellation is protected in Italy [and now in the EU], the name Parmesan has become almost synonymous in other parts of the world with the whole group [sc. grana cheeses], meaning 'Italian grating cheese'

And in fact it has also become synonymous with imitations (hard grating cheeses) around the world, e.g., Argentinian Parmesan. So how about Parmesan (generic) or some such? --Macrakis (talk) 02:23, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Oxford Companion to Food, s.v. 'parmesan'

In that case, should a disambiguation page at Parmesan just point to Parmigiano-Reggiano and Grana (cheese), and move the existing content at Parmesan to Grana? Ibadibam (talk) 19:53, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

That sounds like a reasonable solution, except that the Italian and EU authorities explicitly say that Grana is not to be used as a generic term, separated from the word Padano [6], so we end up with the same silly situation as with Parmesan: the most common generic term in practice is officially forbidden. So I think we're left with "Grana-type cheese" or for that matter "Parmesan-type cheese". You might think that "Hard grating cheese" does the trick, but there are many hard cheeses which are clearly not Grana-type and are often grated, e.g., Pecorino sardo, dry anthotyros, etc. --Macrakis (talk) 22:56, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Add new pic

I added a scheme about the product process of Permisan Cheese that I did as school exercise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robi91 (talk • contribs) 17:51, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

US-centric

In Europe, Parmesan is an exact synonym for Parmigiano-Reggiano - the substance that this article is talking about is never called Parmesan. Anyone from Europe who searches for Parmesan is looking for the article which is at Parmigiano-Reggiano. I think this should be made clear by way of hatnote and possibly also by a more accurate title. MrStoofer (talk) 16:06, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

An exhaustive discussion was undertaken at Talk:Parmigiano-Reggiano about this very dilemma. It was determined that the primary topic for Parmesan was the only cheese that "properly" is commonly called "Parmesan"... that is to say, this one. It's complicated, but this is the best solution we've got. Red Slash 22:07, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, I have made a proposal at Talk:Parmigiano-Reggiano#A new proposal for Parmesan / Parmigiano ---- MrStoofer (talk) 16:13, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

What should be pointed out is that in the USA the term "Parmesan" is seen as a generic name. It is a Generic name which is pronounced and is spelled differently than the actual name of a similar product. As an American I find the insistence that Parmesan, an English translation of the name Parmigiano, is not a generic name to be extremely Eurocentric. As if you cannot find the real stuff in this country, as if the big bad corporations like the Kraft Food company has prevented consumers from knowing that their cheese doesn't actually from Parma. They don't, anyone with eyes who can read labels can see that the Cheese labeled Parmigiano-Reggiano also has a label that reads: Imported from Italy. As far as Americans are concerned it is silly to make "Parmesan" a protected geographical indication when there is already one for actual Parmigiano-Reggiano from Italy especially when the EU accepts the existence of other generic names such as Cheddar. Indeed one can argue that this is a very US-centric view, however I am not advocating that my arguments be the sole opinion presented in the controversy, acknowledging that there are other view points in this whole cheese dispute is most definitely not US-centric but accepting and promoting only the European viewpoint is indeed Euro-centric. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.69.2.19 (talk) 22:06, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The claim of eurocentrism is silly. There are many English names for things which are different from their names in the original language, but continue to refer to the original. Surely you are not going to claim that "Rome" in English refers to the town in New York State, as opposed to "Roma", which refers to the city in Italy? Yes, there are jurisdictions (notably the US) which have allowed specific placenames (or their adjectives) to be used for generic products, like "Burgundy" or "Champagne" wines, but it is not the fact that the name has been anglicized (in the case of Burgundy, the original is Bourgogne, but in the case of Champagne, it is the same) that changes anything.

Of course, Wikipedia doesn't take a position on whether it is "right" or "wrong" to use generic names like this. It describes usage. And usage is that "Parmesan" has long been the usual English name for what is more recently called Parmigiano-Reggiano. --Macrakis (talk) 22:18, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

This article is not about the word, but about the cheese. It is distinct from P-R for several reasons. Yes, it is called by a name that the Irish use for P-R, but it is not the same cheese at all. If you think that P-R is the primary topic for this particular word, then propose a move if you'd like, and we can have Parmesan redirecting there (though we have already had a couple of good, long discussions that have led to the status quo). But this article is not for describing P-R at all other than how it influences this particular cheese. Red Slash 03:51, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

If the article is specifically about the things labelled Parmesan which are not Parmigiano-Romano, that needs to be clearer in the name and in the lead. Just calling it "Parmesan cheese" is highly misleading, because "Parmesan cheese" in English has always referred to what is more precisely referred to nowadays as Parmigiano-Reggiano -- though it also may refer to various imitations in some jurisdictions.

I won't change that aspect of the article until we come to a consensus, but I will restore my edits on different topics which were lost with your revert. --Macrakis (talk) 15:42, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Again, with respect, we discussed this almost exactly a year ago. I'll refer you to this discussion. And in this earlier discussion on that same page, no consensus was formed that the word "Parmesan" is a fitting name for the fancy Italian cheese. In other words, no, generally Americans would not call P-R "Parmesan". To quote one participant: "I'm an English speaker and I use Parmigiano-Reggiano. When watching Food Network, it is usually referred to that way as well. Ask any Chef. 'Parmesan' comes in a can. 'Parmigiano-Reggiano' comes in a wheel."

In any case, this article is definitely about the type of cheese you find in a can. You could potentially debate whether or not Parmigiano-Reggiano is a type of this cheese in addition to being its inspiration, but the long and the short of it is that the article is not about that cheese. If you think it should be, file a requested move. (I don't think I necessarily agree with your other edit, but it's fine; it certainly does no harm.) Red Slash 03:25, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

"this article is definitely about the type of cheese you find in a can" That's really not clear at all. If it came up for a vote, I'd definitely vote to merge with the P-R article as a section mentioning the non-Euro-protected usage. If you logic were sound, the soy alternative section definitely doesn't belong in this article. Suppafly (talk) 19:11, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, you're more than welcome to raise the issue. Did we already have a "vote" on it? Yes. But does that mean we should never change it? No.

Oh, and by the way, I appreciate you taking to time to contribute to this article and the encyclopedia!! I appreciate your perspective even though it's different than my own. And I mean it when I say that you can totally file a requested move - maybe this article should not actually be at Parmesan. We've never really had a strong consensus to keep things this way. Red Slash 03:28, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I participated in the Talk page discussion and I have no intention of reopening the debate on splitting the article.

The question now is what the name of the article about the green-can-cheese should be. In looking over the discussions at Talk:Parmigiano-Reggiano, I do not see any clear conclusion about that. On the other hand, there does seem to be a good plurality (I count 8 vs. 4 -- others did not express an opinion on this) of people who agree that the term "Parmesan" is used to refer to Parmigiano-Reggiano as well as green-can-cheese. Lots of reliable sources support that as well -- just search Google books for "Parmesan cheese is" and the like and scan the results.

Google ngrams shows that until about 1995, Italian/imported Parmesan were about equally common as names as Parmigiano-Reggiano. Starting in 1995, P-R took off and the other qualifications dropped. But they are still much more common than American/domestic/Kraft Parmesan. Of course, this doesn't really prove anything (since maybe "Parmesan" on its own means the ersatz stuff to some writers), but it's suggestive.

So I'd say that both the title of this article and the lead need to be clearer.

That said, I don't know what a better name would be. For clarity, people say things like "authentic Parmesan" or "Italian Parmesan" for P-R. But what do they say for clarity for green-box-cheese? "Domestic" parmesan only makes sense for people who live in North America; "imitation/ersatz/fake" parmesan might be considered snobby; "Kraft" parmesan is just one brand; "commercial" Parmesan is silly, because P-R producers like making money, too; "pre-grated" is inaccurate, because P-R is sometimes sold pre-grated. "Packaged" isn't great, because you can buy shrink-wrapped P-R in many places.

"Industrial" parmesan is used by some writers, and is pretty accurate.

In the meantime, even without a better title, the article needs to be clear that "parmesan" is an ambiguous term, and this article is only about one variant. I will add a dab note -- see what you think. --Macrakis (talk) 04:01, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with you. There's no perfect title for this article. It's notable enough to have its own article, but how to distinguish it from P-R? It's like Champagne--people say "sparkling wine" now to mean "champagne not actually from Champagne, France". What do we do for Parmesan? I don't like that wordy hatnote, but until I can think up a better solution, I guess we'll keep it. What the article really could do with is a picture! Red Slash 21:20, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Here's a proposal. The article already says that "Parmesan" is a generic name. In trademark law, "generic" is the usual way of talking about things like champagne; "semi-generic" is when the generic name is combined with the actual place of origin, e.g., "California champagne" (under US law, you can't call it "champagne" by itself). And in fact in the European decisions about parmesan, the finding was precisely that the name "parmesan" was not generic under European law, though it is generic in other jurisdictions.

So, what I propose is that this article's title be Parmesan cheese (generic) and that Parmesan cheese be a disambiguation page. The lead of this article would be something like:

Generic parmesan cheese is a family of hard cheeses resembling the original Parmesan or Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese from Parma, Italy.

What do you think? --Macrakis (talk) 20:32, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Does that fact (that one jurisdiction has ruled that "Parmesan" is not a generic title) necessarily mean that our article should follow suit? Sources tend to refer to generic Parmesan cheese as simply "Parmesan" (or of course "Parmesan cheese"). I'm not at all convinced that Europe's decision to say that "Parmesan" can only refer to P-R means that either Wikipedia's sources nor Wikipedia itself are required to follow, or even should. I just don't see how the word "parmesan" is most commonly used to refer to anything but the subject of this article anywhere outside of Europe. I guess I would need to see sources from other places talking about common usage, but I'd guess that when a Jamaican or a New Zealander or an English-speaking Brazilian talk about Parmesan, they're more likely to think of this type of cheese. Red Slash 00:40, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I must not have expressed myself clearly. I am not suggesting that we follow the EU ruling in our title, although of course we should report it in the article (WP:NPOV).

The decision of the European Commission was that "Parmesan" is not a generic name under European law, unlike Camembert or Cheddar.

Conversely, under current US law, it clearly is a generic name. Indeed, Kraft itself says it is a generic name: "Kraft, closely identified with its grated Parmesan cheese, says the cheese names have long been considered generic in the United States."

I don't dispute at all that the name "parmesan" is being used in a generically in Jamaica, New Zealand, etc. On the contrary, I want this article to make that clear. I also don't dispute that this is a common usage, and certainly much more generic parmesan is produced than PDO Parmesan. This is the same pattern as any other trademark or PDO (whether still legally protected or not): most things commonly called "kleenex", "aspirin", "dumpster", "frisbee", "champagne", etc., in the generic sense are not the original brand/PDO, but the branded versions continue to be referred to by those names.

The term used by the generic name lobby in the US is "common food name".[7] But that is not an NPOV designation. Anyway, Parmesan cheese (common food name) doesn't work as an article title.

"Generic" is the neutral way to refer to "Parmesan" in the broad sense, and is NPOV in that it is an accepted way to talk about it both in jurisdictions which consider Parmesan to be a PDO and jurisdictions which consider it to be generic, and even by the most famous producer (Kraft) of the generic version. --Macrakis (talk) 17:17, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I understand your perspective much better now. Those are some nice sources, by the way--can we integrate them into the article? Okay, if you're wanting this article's subject matter to use the word "generic" in the lead, I am absolutely fine with that, and I think it's a positive. Let's make it clear what the subject is about. I just don't think I'd support a move of the article to a title like that, since generic Parmesan is so much more common than P-R (which has a perfectly natural name for its article that is not Parmesan). Red Slash 23:08, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

OK, so I will edit the lead.

On the topic of the article title, the very fact that there has been such a debate on Wikipedia shows that we need to be sure to be clear for the reader. I have brought sources showing that *both* the pro-generic and the anti-generic camps agree that the non-Italian Parmesan is accurately called "generic". We could stay with just the hatnote, but I don't think that's enough to keep things clear. --Macrakis (talk) 03:06, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I think the hatnote clarifies things somewhat, but again, this article really needs a picture (especially of a can of the cheese). I'll try to upload one. Macrakis, you're doing a fantastic job on the article! Red Slash 05:20, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I came across this by accident. Couldn't this be solved by merging this article into the other one, adding a section on "generic" versions? I don't see why a standalone article is required for this entity. RGloucester — ☎ 22:17, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

We had a reasonably extensive discussion about that. It's a pretty distinct primary topic. Red Slash 05:44, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

This article was originally only a section of the other article, and was split without consensus. Ibadibam (talk) 17:22, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

• @Ibadibam: I thought something like that might have happened. I started the move discussion below since the difference between the two topics is very unclear to most readers. In fact, I would actually like to see the split reverted. Steel1943 (talk) 17:26, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Article is unworthy of subject

Parmesan is described as "generally pale yellow in color" and the only picture is of a soy-based 'Parmesan alternative' risotto. Sad little article for arguably the King of cheeses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.132.152 (talk) 02:26, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 14 August 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: merge the two articles currently residing at Parmesan and Parmigiano-Reggiano, something there seemed to be almost unanimous agreement for. I don't think there is a consensus to actually move any articles at the moment, but once the merge has been carried out that question should probably be revisited. Jenks24 (talk) 13:35, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

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• Parmesan → ?
• Parmesan (disambiguation) → Parmesan

– Given the discussions that have happened at Talk:Parmesan#US-centric and basically the whole page at Talk:Parmigiano-Reggiano, it doesn't look like there is a primary topic. (However, I also could not think of a new title to move Parmesan since, in theory with this way of thinking, Parmesan (cheese) and Parmesan cheese could also refer to Parmigiano-Reggiano, so are thus both ambiguous.) Steel1943 (talk) 03:22, 14 August 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 11:01, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment how is "in Europe" make this "US-centric"? In Canada, which is not the US nor is it the UK, "parmesan" (or "parmesan cheese") is the generic cheese. While the region is "Parma". The fancy imported form of parmesan is parmigiano, a type of parmesan. I find the discussion only discusses European and U.S. choices, but not the actual world. What of the rest of the English-speaking world? India? Australia? South Africa? -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 04:21, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Perhaps it would be more constructive to frame this less as a US vs. Europe question and more as North America vs. the rest of the world. Ibadibam (talk) 17:46, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
    • And how is it "the rest of the world" when the only other part of the world discussed is Europe. -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 05:16, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
      • On that same token (to the IP), I didn't know that the US's opinion on this was enough to completely alienate European opinions. Steel1943 (talk) 13:57, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
        • Canada is not part of the United States. And EU-legal-naming rules are most definitely Eurocentrism. So, do we have any idea what these are outside of Europe and Canada and US? (ie. NZ, Aus, RSA, India) -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 03:59, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
      • I say that because most English-speaking cultures outside North America tend to follow British usage in most cases. I'm sure there are domestic Parmesan-style cheeses made in Australia, India, etc that are labelled Parmesan. The question is, do people there consider domestic Parmesan an entirely separate foodstuff from Italian Parmesan? In the United States, it's quite mixed (as the RfC demonstrated), in that some people consider Parmesan to refer only to powdered cheese, while others also use the term for that style of cheese in all its forms. Ibadibam (talk) 18:00, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
        • Since this is the result of EU-legal naming rules, it isn't really typical English. The rest of the English speaking world was settled before the EU was founded, and most separated from the UK and Europe before the EU promulgated these rules, so what they would use does not necessarily or even typically follow such a recent EU-ruling. So we do need to see what those non-European countries use if we are comparing Europe to the real world outside it. -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 05:44, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't see anything that suggests that this should be moved, only Eurocentrism vs US-centrism discussions; EU-labelling issues are promotion of Eurocentrism if they are not commonly accepted and used outside of Europe. -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 04:21, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Right. I think the length of the conversations alone show a systemic bias if we leave the primary topic as either one of the cheese articles, especially given that we have readers in both above-mentioned geographical regions. Steel1943 (talk) 16:52, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Given that the topic is a European food, I'd argue that it's perfectly valid to give stronger weight to the European viewpoint. Ibadibam (talk) 17:46, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. 67 above sums it up nicely. I'd also add that WP:TWODABS basically says this move is unnecessary. People looking for the article on P-R can simply click the hatnote. Calidum T|C 17:13, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
  • @Calidum: Actually, WP:TWODABS doesn't apply since the disambiguation page has more than two entries... Steel1943 (talk) 17:22, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Despite the shortcut, TWODABS also applies in cases where there are three topics. Regardless, I really doubt someone searching for "Parmesan" would actually be looking for Parma (the other entry on the dabpage). Calidum T|C 17:32, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't doubt that the word's original roots is not the primary... Steel1943 (talk) 17:37, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support with reservations - I'm still in the camp that Parmesan doesn't need to be a standalone article. The article as it currently stands is about those Parmesan-style cheeses not conforming to European law, a split we have not made for any other protected-designation cheese, like feta or gorgonzola. Should the articles be left separate, I agree that there's no primary topic, and suggest that the current Parmesan article could appropriately move to Parmesan-style cheese or similar. Ibadibam (talk) 17:46, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support with reservations, in line with Ibadibam – I too believe that the separate article that presently resides at Parmesan is unnecessary, and that it could be merged into the article that presently resides at an Italian name I cannot spell. To me, "Parmesan" is the Italian cheese. Generic versions of said cheese, however different from the original, are ultimately derived from that cheese and should be described in its article, which is not that long. In the event that this cannot be done, Parmesan should be a dab page. There is no clear primary topic, as British and Irish English speakers, and most likely even some American English speakers, think of "Parmesan" when referring to the complicated Italian name. RGloucester — ☎ 16:50, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Under that position, wouldn't we merge the two cheese articles together, and have the article exist at "Parmesan" ? -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 03:57, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

That's what I'd do in an ideal situation, yes. RGloucester — ☎ 03:59, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

@RGloucester: I'm in that camp too; I don't feel that the two articles need to be separate. (As sort of alluded above, I started this move discussion since, as separate subjects, neither is more notable than the other, even if I do disagree that they are two separate distinct subjects.) Steel1943 (talk) 18:31, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Endorse sensible logic of Steel1943 and RGloucester, there is no need for two articles, 'original' and '-style' could be covered in one article called 'Parmesan', 'Parmigiano-Reggiano' would then be a redirect. Everyone agrees that the cheese is primary topic, the only dispute, is how 'authentic' the cheese needs to be to carry that name. Pincrete (talk) 17:10, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Given that there seems to be considerable support for this sort of resolution to the problem, how would we go about carrying it out? RGloucester — ☎ 17:38, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

The original, no-consensus split was carried out on 30 May 2014. The contemporary revision of P-R had a section, "Use of the name", which covered "generic Parmesan", and has been little changed since then. If this discussion closes with a consensus to merge, the information in Parmesan can mostly be merged into that section. Ibadibam (talk) 21:01, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• Rename this article to Parmesan cheese. No need for parentheses, "Parmesan cheese" is what you ask for even if in the deli if not already surrounded by only cheeses, Parmigiano-Reggiano although more correct is significantly less used/recognized;

Redirect Parmesan to Parmesan (disambiguation) (no primarytopic). The chess is named after Parma, and several other well known things are similarly named after Parma. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:22, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Merge Parmigiano-Reggiano into Parmesan cheese. The subtle difference should be explained within the article, there is not enough material currently for the split. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:26, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Nutritional Content

I understand the nutritional content has been taken from USDA Nutritional Database, however checking my own 'Parmigiano Reggiano' in the fridge, the carbohydrate content is 0g per 100g, whereas USDA site says 3.2g per 100g. jolerrs (talk) 10:54, 9 November 2016 (UTC)Jolene

Additions/removal of contents January-February 2018

All--there has been some addition and removal of content over the last month in large blocks. I believe it is time to discuss the content here before an edit war ensues.--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:14, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

The contribution of immigrants to the Italian dairy sector is certainly an encyclopedic topic that deserves to be covered. The question is, I think, where they should be covered? According to BBC News "Indians (there is a much smaller Hindu community) currently make up about 60% of the Parmesan-producing workforce"[8], so it certainly makes sense to mention that in this article. However, Sikhs are apparently also important in the mozzarella industry[9] -- and other parts of the dairy sector, and not just in the Parma region. (See the section on the Latteria Sorsenia in [10]) I'd think that the main article should be something like Indians in Italy or Sikhism in Italy, with cross-references from the other articles. --Macrakis (talk) 19:02, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

I'd tend to agree with User:ScrapIronIV. It does seem like excessive information for the article about the cheese itself and doesn't really belong under "production". I think if these stats are tied to specific companies that have wiki pages, then it may be worth including, or at the pages specifically about these demographics in Italy stated above. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 21:58, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

I've started an "industry" section of the article, which should eventually include information about major producers, production statistics, industry organization, labor relations, exports, and so on. I've included one sentence about Indian immigrants: fuller information about them belongs, I think, in the Indians in Italy article. Take a look. --Macrakis (talk) 17:38, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Much better. Scr★pIron^IV 18:10, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Yup, looks good. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 18:23, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Misleading US-centric POV on names

This article's definition of "Parmesan" is based on a uniquely US perspective and is misleading to visitors from other countries. "Parmesan" has come to be known as the name for generic domestic copies in the US, but this is not in line with the usage in the rest of the world. While people may of course refer to any cheese in this style as "Parmesan" out of habit or lack of knowledge in the same way any sparkling wine may be referred to as "Champagne", it still refers to actual Parmigiano-Reggiano by definition outside the US and is used as such in Italian as well. This usage does of course predate the protection of the name "Parmesan" under EU law.

It's unfortunate that the regional POV wasn't picked up on in the move request, but with the history this article has it wouldn't be right to start editing. The two viable options I see here is either to clarify the US usage vs the rest of the world or rename the article to "Parmesan". While the second option might be the most technically correct in terms of Wiki policies and guidelines, I think the first option would be best. Splitting would make matters even worse than they are today. US visitors would go to the "Parmigiano-Reggiano" page and everybody else to "Parmesan". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blanksteg (talk • contribs) 19:31, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Recommendations section

I believe the recommendations sub-section under section similar cheeses for the article to be incoherent and does not add any additional information. I suggest that it should either be fleshed out by providing a list of similar cheeses by taste and texture or to be deleted as it may be seen as redundant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:4540:46E0:6415:3BC0:FDE2:69A0 (talk) 22:11, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 25 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:35, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

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Parmigiano Reggiano → Parmesan – Parmesan is by far the most WP:COMMONNAME used for this cheese per ngrams. Parmesan already redirects here, and it should be the article title. Spekkios (talk) 05:41, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH. The most common name for this subject in English is Parmesan. Rreagan007 (talk) 06:14, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
• Support per previous discussions - although some editors may argue that Parmesan only refers to imitation Parmigiano-Reggiano, this is a peculiarity of the North American market. Parmesan is the more familiar English term. Ibadibam (talk) 06:36, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I am in North America and I can assure you that that is not the case. "Parmesan" or "Parmesan cheese" is widely used in the U.S. as the term for the cheese also known as "Parmigiano Reggiano". Rreagan007 (talk) 06:39, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nom. WP:USEENGLISH & WP:COMMONNAME. Showiecz (talk) 10:25, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose move. The terms refer to different topics. Alex2006 (talk) 10:40, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

If that were true, then "Parmesan" would not redirect here. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:44, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

• Support. To recap what I said nine years ago, "Parmesan" is the usual term for this product in English. While "Parmigiano Reggiano" is only used for cheese from that region, Parmigiano Reggiano is always considered part of the category of "Parmesan," not something separate. The Oxford English Dictionary entry for "Parmesan" reads "Of or belonging to Parma...; esp. designating a hard, dry cheese made there and elsewhere in northern Italy." Under "Parmigiano–Reggiano", it has: "A Parmesan cheese of controlled origin, produced in an area around Parma, Reggio Emilia, Mantua, Modena, and Bologna." Under "Parmigiano", it just says "Parmesan cheese." The Oxford Companion to Italian Food lists the cheese under Parmesan and discusses the Parmigiano-Reggiano name as it relates to cheese specifically from the region. The sources are clear that it's both common and correct to call "Parmigiano-Reggiano" cheese "Parmesan", and that "Parmesan" is a broader definition that includes "Parmigiano–Reggiano". Given that the split was reversed by consensus seven years ago, "Parmesan" is the right title here.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:11, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I disagree that Parmigiano Reggiano is part of a broader category of Parmesan. Parmigiano Reggiano is synonymous with Parmesan and doesn't even include Grana Padano let alone other grana cheeses; it's just that "Parmesan" is used in some parts of the world to designate imitations of real Parmesan, even by some brands. Lots of people call Miracle Whip and Just Mayo "mayonnaise" -- that doesn't make them mayonnaise. Still, this article should be called "Parmesan" and should be primarily about the real thing. If the current section about imitations is insufficient, we can always create an article for Imitation Parmesan or Parmesan (generic) or some such. --Macrakis (talk) 22:38, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

The main point is that "Parmesan" is not reserved only for imitation "Parmigiano Reggiano", and being far more common, should be the title here. As you say the section on generic Parmesan covers it well enough, though it should also be retitled so as not to imply that "Parmesan" is the name for the generic stuff but not for the original.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:19, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

• Support Parmigiano Reggiano is unambiguous worldwide, it's true. But "Parmesan" originally and generally means the same thing. The fact that fake Parmesan can legally be abusively called "Parmesan" in the US is an interesting fact that we document in the article. --Macrakis (talk) 16:50, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:01, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Pronunciation of Parmesan

In every country I know of, when saying Parmesan they pronounce it "Par-meh-zann" or "Par-muh-zann". What is it that a lot of Americans say? I can only approximate how they're pronouncing it, but it's something like "Par-meh-zsjhzaahrn". It's clearly not Parmigiano they're trying to say, that would me "Par-meh-gee-arno". So they're not saying Parmesan, and they're not saying Parmigiano, so what are they saying? Is it a special America-only version? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.174.66.58 (talk) 11:53, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

You're thinking of "par-muh-zhahn" ([ˈpɑrməˌʒɑn]); it's just one of several ways Americans say Parmesan.

As for Parmigiano, something like "par-muh-jah-no" would be a better anglicization, but then again, we all know how Giovanni is handled.

Espreon (talk) 13:40, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

I've always wondered why Americans pronounce it "parmajaan".88.142.151.11 (talk) 20:29, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

See hyperforeignism#English -- we should find a way of mentioning the issue in the article. --Macrakis (talk) 21:04, 12 August 2022 (UTC)