Talk:Palestine (region)/Archive 9

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One part of this WP article contradicts its own source, and other historic sources

section 3.4 "The question of late Arab immigration to Palestine".

This WP article says: "The official British Census data for Palestine, the reports made by the Mandatory Administration to the League of Nations, [etc] ...concluded that Arab population growth was attributable to "natural increase", [sic] not to any substantial immigration"... but...

the sources I'll review after this paragraph tell us that this sentence from the WP article should say: "The official British Census data for Palestine, the reports made by the Mandatory Administration to the League of Nations [etc]... conclude at some points [1] that Arab population growth was attributable to "natural increase," not to any substantial immigration, but the same sources conclude the opposite at other points.[2]

REASONS/PROOF:

[1] The WP article already gives one link, to Capmag.com reviewing a book by Joan Peters, which takes the position that Arab immigration WAS a significant factor in Arab population growth in Palestine. Yet this WP article ironically says only the OPPOSITE of what their source, Peters/capmag, says, by selectively quoting one footnote from Peters/capmag and ignoring the broader view of what Peters/Capmag presented. (see http://www.capmag.com/articlePrint.asp?ID=2138 <--contrast the link I gave there, versus the link a Wikipedian gave to the footnote only.)

[2] Note that the following are excerpts from the very same official "reports made to the Mandatory Administration" (to quote the Wikipedia article):

The Palestine Royal Commission Report (Peel Commission) in 1937 noted the "shortfall of land is...due less to the amount of land acquired by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population". Source: The Palestine Royal Commission Report; London: 1937; pg. 242.
That report followed the Hope Simpson Commission, who reported in 1930 that illegal Arab immigrants were displacing (legal) Jewish immigrants. Source: John Hope Simpson, Palestine: Report on Immigration, Land Settlement and Development; London, 1930; pg. 126.
The UK's Governor of the Sinai also reported: "This illegal immigration was not only going on from the Sinai, but also from Transjordan and Syria, and it is very difficult to make a case out for the misery of the Arabs if at the same time their compatriots from adjoining states could not be kept from going in to share that misery". Source: Palestine Royal Commission Report; London: 1937; pg. 291.

The Wikipedia article as it currently reads says that these "reports made to the Mandatory Administration...concluded that Arab population growth was attributable to "natural increase", [sic] not to any substantial immigration" and these 3 things I've quoted show these reports concluding THE OPPOSITE.

Page 126 of The Hope Simpson report made no mention of Arab immigrants. Part 3 of 6 in the capmag.com series specifically addressed that particular claim. see http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2137 The Hope Simpson report was talking about travelers who entered Palestine with permission for a limited time and stayed-on after the term of their permission had expired. In the vast majority of cases those travelers were Jewish, not Arab. If there was no objection to the individual, they were added to the Labor Schedule. The report noted that "this method does a certain injustice to the Jewish immigrant outside the country, whose place is taken by the traveller concerned." Your first cite from the Peel Commission isn't a proof either, since it doesn't mention immigration.

Peters said that immigration was a significant factor in the Arab population increase. It doesn't matter if you read the footnote, or the link you provided, the author of the capmag.com series, Paul Blair, didn't agree with Peters conclusions. None of the anecdotal comments about immigration problems have any statistical weight. They don't say what percentage of Palestine's Arab population consisted of purported illegals. In other words they don't contradict the 1936 findings of population expert A.M. Carr-Saunders, The 1938 Palestine Partition Commission (which relied on Carr-Saunders), and etc. harlan (talk) 13:32, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Where is UN map of Palestine?

This is the only country that has geographical map instead of political. I think some kosher people are trying to make people forget about UN-recognized borders of Palestine. I am very disappointed and angry about this kosher influence on reaching the truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.234.226.97 (talk) 06:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Let me first say that the word kosher is an adjective that cannot refer to people only inanimate objects. You are clearly an antisemite who knows little of what you are speaking about. Palestine is currently recognized by 97 countries but not the United Nations. Please refer to the United Nations list of recognized nations for further details about your own ignorance.

This article is about the region of Palestine, not the proposed state. Goalie1998 (talk) 17:02, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Spare us the 'anti-semitic' tirade, it's old. - Now, you must keep in mind that a few well known nation states are not recognized formally and have no membership in the United Nations; North Korea for example.

Are you to tell me that North Korea does not exist?

Further, Some people would argue that 'Palestine' (inia) has never been a country, even during the life of the Roman Empire it was nothing more than a small tract of land regulated but not officially recognized --- But then again, Judea was never an official nation either there was never a nation called Judea recognized by the powers of the day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.200.162.14 (talk) 04:56, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

just a display problem

under "British Mandate" the pic is displaying over top the first line of text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.51.249.237 (talk) 19:31, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

This land has always been called 'Palestine'.

Max —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.156.227 (talk) 04:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The name "Palestine" was not used by the Romans before Hadrian (135 BCE). However, this Wikipedia entry talks about a piece of land that has been called so many different things through time and refers to it as 'Palestine'. Palestine in Paleolithic and Neolithic periods (1 mya-5000 BCE), Bronze Age, Iron Age, Hebrew Bible, Persian rule, .. into Classical antiquity where eventually, in 135 BCE Hadrian calls it Palestine. Seems kind of like saying 'Palestine has always been there'. Not true.

Absolutely true. The area was Israel, not Palestine, for over 1000 years before Roman rule. This article is ridiculous in labeling the land Palestine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.196.179.114 (talk) 04:28, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

No proof

There is no solid evidence that Israel as a nation ever existed in ancient times other than biblical texts. - The area of Judea and Palestine were never officially recognized as nation states by any ancient powers. - Both Judea and Palestine were nothing more than 'regions' within old Empires.

Please - show us one shred of historical evidence to support the existence of an ancient 'Palestinian' or 'Israeli' nation. - Cannot do it because they never existed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.200.162.14 (talk) 05:00, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Naming and time line

The first introduction of this name was by the Romans in 135 AD. After crushing the second Jewish revolt and exiling the Jews from Judea, Jerusalem's name was changed to Aelia Capitolina and Judea ("land of the Jews") was changed to Palestine in order to spite the Jews and in commemoration of their historical arch rivals - the Philistines. The Philistines were part of the sea nations that reaked havoc around the mediteranean in 1200 BCE. They are totally unrelated to Arab Palestinians of modern day or any other Semetic people and are related to Cartage (see Pune wars) and Pheonicians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.118.48.248 (talk) 10:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Uh, the Carthaginians and Phoenicians were Semitic, but they weren't related to them either. So I don't really know where you get your information.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 17:40, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Still, the name "Palestine" has been the official name for more than twice the time it was called "Judea". The name "Canaan" is still older and used as frequently as "Judea" in historical sources, so it clearly has seniority. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

That's because Canaan and Judea are not the same thing. Judea does not encompass all of Palestine either. Out of all the terms though, the Land of Israel has been in use for the longest time (together with Canaan, but which was not used in modern times). Amoruso (talk) 04:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Both are historical rather than political terms. "Israel" was not used as a name of the area for 2,000 years, so it still has 1,000 years of catching up to do. As "Palestine" hasn't fallen out of use, it's doubtful if it ever will lose its status as the longest-used name. MeteorMaker (talk) 04:28, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Not used by whom? jews have never stopped calling this area "Eretz Yisrael". The fact that this article is called palestine instead of Eretz Yisrael or at least palestine\Eretz Yisrael, and discusses the non existing "ancient palestine", is an absurd example of political bias. Apollo 11 (talk) 10:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

This is English Wikipedia and the area has never been called "Eretz Yisrael" in English, call it "an absurd example of political bias" if you like. Land of Israel has its own article anyway. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

English speakers have been calling that country Land of Israel, long before it was called palestine. Why use that term only in a biblical context (as that article does), but not when discussing the geographical region it was used to describe? Apollo 11 (talk) 22:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

First, English didn't even exist as a language 2,000 years ago, so the term "Palestine" is clearly more ancient. Second, neither "Land of Israel" nor "Eretz Yisrael" have ever been the official name of the place in English. Third: It does mention both toponyms as alternative terms many Jews and Zionists use, so it's not true that the article restricts the use to the Biblical context. MeteorMaker (talk) 06:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

In fact, Palaistine was used to name the region by Herodotus in the 5th century BCE, with no mention of either Judea (which was the name of at least an inland portion in the Achaemenid empire) or Israel. This attests a continuous use of "Palestine"-related naming since the settlement of the Philistines in the 13th-12th centuries BCE. Certainly, no portion of the land was called Judea or Israel before that. Certainly, Palestine, Judea, and Israel referred to different, but overlapping pieces of land, as did Samaria, Phoenicia, Galilee, Syria (or Coele-Syria), and eber-nahara (under the Achaemenids). They were also used by different groups of people for different purposes. Aside from the brief Israelite state (ca. 1000/900-722 BCE), Israel was only used to refer to the region in a religious sense until modern zionism. Even the Hasmoneans and Bar Kokhba, Jewish-led states, refered to the land as Judea, not Israel. And again Judea was only a portion of modern Israel/palestine, which also includes ancient Samaria, Galilee, Idumea, Phoenicia, and the free cities of Philistia (Palestine) 46.2.227.78 (talk) 10:37, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Added back Mark Twain info

I added back info on Twain's account and Christoson's reaction to it. These were apparently deleted inadvertently in a revert war back in November. If we're going to keep Twain's account, we need to put it in context. Thank you, Jgui (talk) 17:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I added a link to chapter 1 of Twains Tom Sawyer Abroad to the article. Twain ridiculed Christian and Jewish claims to Arab land: http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/lit/marktwain/TomSawyerAbroad/Chap1.html harlan (talk) 12:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

State recognition

I note that Costa Rica has recognized diplomatically a Palestinian state.[http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/958208.html The Associated Press,'Israeli diplomat postpones meeting after Costa Rica recognizes Palestinian state,' Haaretz 26/02/2008 ]

Where does one put this?Nishidani (talk) 10:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I suppose somewhere in Proposals for a Palestinian state. okedem (talk) 14:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The Name Palestine

1. Judea was a region within the Roman Empire - it had various inhabitants and they were called Judean's not "Jews".

2. Judea, like Palestine - Was a region within the Roman Empire (and other earlier and later empires) and was never, ever, recognized as a nation state.

3. The Romans already had control of Judea - they did not need to 'conquer' it in the year 135 AD. -- Furthermore, "Jews" were not dispersed from the entire region of Judea. There is absolutely no historical evidence to support such a wild claim. --All that is known is that Titus (who reigned long before 135 AD) went to war, destroyed the temple, and killed the rebels. --Standard Roman fare for the day and was not a 'dispersal.'

4. - "In order to distance it from the Judeans" - Who were, majority, not Jewish but PAGANS.

Josephus writes about Titus'es war. - He did not slaughter an entire region, give us a break. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.200.162.14 (talk) 05:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

The name Palestine

When the Romans conquered Judea and dispersed the Jews, they called the land "palestine" after the philistines and in order to distance it from the Jews.99.237.190.52 (talk) 19:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)Nanette

And when the Hebrews conquered Canaan and killed the Canaanites, they called the land "Judea" for exactly the same reason. MeteorMaker (talk) 14:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Wrong, they did none of this thing. You show your lack of knowledge of history. Judea was created much later and it's only a small part of Canaan. We only know of Canannites from the bible where according to legend, the Israelites conquered the land of Caanan which was their "promised land from God". From archaeological evidence, hundreds of years later, we know that there a Kingdom of Israel and a Kingdom of Judah in what Jews call the Land of Israel. Indeed, the Romans destroyed the Kingdom of Judea (the Kingdom of Israel being destroyed earlier), and renamed the land of Judea to Palestina. This is the origin for the term of Palestine which was used in the world to describe the "Jewish National Home" during the 1800 and 1900's.

Anyway, I restored the previous lead. You'd note that Eretz Yisrael is the official translation of "Palestine", and during the British mandate of Palestine, the Hebrew words were Palestine (EY), where EY stood for Eretz Yisrael. Palestine = Eretz Yisrael until basically 1948 or 1967 by Jews as well. Amoruso (talk) 04:17, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Translation, hardly, and definitely not etymologically related to the term "Palestine", which is the claim I corrected in the lead. By your own logic (see above), if two place names refer to an area that isn't exactly the same, they are not alternative toponyms. Re the Canaanites, you are wrong when you say we only know them from the Bible. I don't quite understand your objection either, are you saying the Hebrews did not invade Canaan and begun calling the land "Judea"? MeteorMaker (talk) 04:39, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Indeed they did not. The Tribe of Judah, which you probably refer to, had allocated only 1/12 (not identical ) part of Canaan. We have evidence of people before the Israelites of course, but there is no indication that any NATION ever existed in the Land of Israel except for the Jews, and indeed there isn't. As for Eretz Yisrael, it's not etymological but it's how Jews refered to as Palestine, both as Palestina and Eretz Yisrael. I don't understand your objection to remove this information from the article. Eretz Yisrael - (Hebrew) Land of Israel; (modern) Jewish homeland to be established in the general area of Palestine. In Ottoman Turkish times, Eretz Yisrael and Eretz Hakodesh (the Holy Land) were used to designate the area surrounding Jerusalem and including areas from the Litani river in the north to modern Eilat. Under the British mandate, Eretz Yisrael came to designate the area of the Mandate, which was called in Hebrew - Palestina A"Y - Palestine - Eretz Yisrael. [1] See also Britannica [2] which says: "... Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisrael)..." "Amoruso (talk) 05:50, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Please see this, for the territories of the tribes. okedem (talk) 07:08, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Amoruso, please realize that there is no difference between the Roman renaming of the area to Palestine and the renaming by the 12 Hebrew tribes (see Okedem's link above) to the various names they began using instead of Canaan, particularly "Judea" and "Israel".

"Please realize"? You don't even know what's Judea and what's Israel. Okedem post meant to educate you on the subject matter. What does this have to do with your blanking of the translation of Palestine in Hebrew like demonstrated to you. Amoruso (talk) 08:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Nishidani, Judea and Israel were the kingdoms that came much, much later. (Using the bible as a source) At first the land was called Canaan, and then the Hebrews (or Israelites) returned from Egypt and conquered it from the Canaanites, which were seven or ten peoples. I'm not sure if we can call each one of them "a nation", or if they all belonged to one, Canaanite, nation, but regardless - there was at least one "nation" there. Before and while conquering the land, it was called "Land of the sons of Israel", which later changed into "Land of Israel". When conquering the land, it was divided into 12 territories, for the tribes (see the map I linked). After a few hundred years, at about 1050BC, they united into the United Monarchy (aka Kingdom of Israel), under Saul, David and Solomon. After Solomon's death, at 926BC, the kingdom split in two - the 10 northern tribes formed the Kingdom of Israel (yea, same name...), the two southern formed the Kingdom of Judah. From this point onwards, there's good archeological evidence for the events.

The point of this timeline is - the names Judah and Israel came long after the conquest of the land. Another point is - there were some nations in Canaan before, and during the Israelite kingdoms, like the Philistines - which were long gone by the time the Romans used their name to change Judea province's name to Syria-Palestina (they merged it with the province of Syria), just to anger the Jews. okedem (talk) 09:17, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record there is no indication that any NATION ever existed in the Land of Israel except for the Jews, and indeed there isn't. This is nonsense, and contradicts the Bible, contemporary Egyptian and Assyrian records, and archeology, apart from playing on the ambiguity of the word 'nation'. It is so profoundly ideological, that one is advised not to even refute the statement. If you come to the text with these absurd prejudices, then you leave other editors little option than that of reverting. Nishidani (talk) 09:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I recommend before you rebegin to hammer away at this point that you read the whole of the preceding archive and esp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Palestine/Archive_8#Eretz_Israel Sect 6,7,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Palestine/Archive_8#Eretz_Yisrael Sect.58 Nishidani (talk) 09:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

You seem angry, and I don't know why. Please relax. Do not assume bad faith and do not attack me or other users. It's a historical fact that there wasn't any nation in Palestine (before and after the Romans named it as such) except for the Kingdoms of Israel. Some say that the Kingdom of Jerusalem of the Crusaders was also a nation (but without the population). By nation it means countries as such with people defining this region as their nation, not parts of very large empires. I'm sorry if you find the truth to be an absurd prejudice. Amoruso (talk) 09:17, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Amoruso, since you seem to have great knowledge about what constitutes a nation, would you say, for instance, David's kingdom was one?

Also, I would like to hear a clear yes or no reply to this question: In your opinion, did the invading Hebrew tribes begin to use a new name for Canaan or didn't they? MeteorMaker (talk) 09:26, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Amoruso, please read what I wrote above. okedem (talk) 09:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I do not want to go through ideologically infused debates. No. I am not at all angry. I am firm. Please do not edit by coming back to a page with a large number of standard propositions that ignore the best historical literature, and expect your fellow editors to waste months recasting exhausted arguments. Please do not write generalizations that reflect a personal synthetic interpretation of complex events. I have not attacked you. I have pointed out that you justify your position by making a remark that is historically nonsensical. I.e. don't play word games with me, saying there was no such nation (while allowing there was a defined region called Palestine existing according to historical accounts from the 11th century onwards, and registered in Greek sources from the 5th century BCE onwards etc.etc). Don't reintroduce the dead argument that Palestine was created by Romans after 135. Don't tell me no nations (ethic units/political units) existed in the region except the Jewish people or those political entities the northern and southern kingdoms, entities with a comparatively short historical life as autonomous units. Don't give me the Bible legends (which however document that Hebron was in Hittite hands, the whole of the coast in Philistine hands, that Amalekites, Kenites, Idumaeans, Canaanites, Egyptians, Samaritans, Jebusites, Perizzites, Calebites, Moabites, Midianites, Hurrians etc.etc thrived in the area. This is an encyclopedia to be written so that all peoples of the world may read it. It is not an exposition of one Jewish narrative. It has to be written, contextually, so that neither a Jewish person nor a Palestinian, Arab or English Christian would take no exception to it. The 'Jewish people' are among other things descendants of Ivrim and all of these variegated peoples, mostly semitic, and were not an exclusive ethnic unit pre-existing history, and intact as such throughout history, having established the only 'legitimate' national realities in that area. This is extremely boring. Nishidani (talk) 09:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

okedem Thanks for your comment. I hardly think we need to recast several years of debate over all issues when a simple edit in which the Hebrew word 'Palestine' glossing the word 'Palestine', is challenged by saying we must add 'Eretz Israel'. This has been extensively debated, and perhaps no side is convinced of the other. I see no point in stirring old controversies over one word. People who will stay with the article will eventually iron this out. I will reply today to your remarks, however. At the moment, my wife is complaining I am neglecting our gardens. That explains the vigour of my reply to Amoruso, whose simplifications will only generate a huge and futile restaging of things no one can agree on. We should improve the article, and leave these things aside until we have a comprehensive NPOV overall text. I hope you can at least see my point on this last matter. regards Nishidani (talk) 09:43, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

okedem I might engage in a very long point by point argument on some things you wrote, but, friend, we are dealing with the word in the opening section. I am absolutely convinced that what Amoruso argues for is taken by a very large number of people in the Israeli community as self-evident, and therefore that opposition to it is irrational. So, let me put it this way. As a child I was raised always to speak of 'the Holy Land'. No one spoke of 'Palestine'. If I recur to my religious upbringing, absolutely, 'the Holy Land' is the deepest linguistic framework through which I tend to think of the place. In the Christian world, with its millenial and intense attachments to that land (often something ignored here), one spoke in that way, just as Jews spoke of 'Eretz Yisroel'. If one begins to gloss the Hebrew phonetic transcription of this Greek toponym with another Hebrew word, 'eretz yisrael', then a Christian (I am no longer one) could well say, 'I want Palaistina, the word, glossed with 'Holy Land'. Turks or pan-Arabists could ask for their native glosses, etc.etc. You open thereby a can of worms, and endless ethnic challenges. The point Amoruso makes is already made in the text, i.e., that there is an association of long standing between Eretz Yisrael and Palestine. It is made in a section, if I recall, that then mentions the Christian term 'Holy Land'. I hope this clarifies things. Regards Nishidani (talk) 11:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I just wanted to set straight some points, mainly when the names Judah and Israel (Israel as opposed to Land of Israel) first appeared in wide use regarding this area; and the point about nations in the area. I actually don't think we should have the name "Eretz Israel" in the brackets in the lead, as it is not a transliteration, but an alternate name for a roughly overlapping territory.

By the way, I think some change needs to be made to the last sentence of the lead: "Today, Palestine can also be used to refer to the State of Palestine, an entity recognized by over 100 countries in the world, whose boundaries have yet to be determined."

I think this is a confusing sentence. If I didn't know any better, what I'd understand from this is that there is such a state, but the borders haven't been finalized yet (like some of Israel's borders haven't been finalized). This is, as we know, untrue. The entity named "State of Palestine" does not comply with the definition of "State" - from our article, "A state is a political association with effective sovereignty over a geographic area". The "State of Palestine" is a political association, but it has no effective sovereignty, or very limited sovereignty (over Gaza and few cities - that keeps changing). This should be somehow clarified. Maybe something like the second paragraph of Proposals for a Palestinian state (State of Palestine redirects there).

Your thoughts? okedem (talk) 12:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

This involves a complex legal question. The definition of a state in Wiki is not necessarily authoritative. States can be defined in international law in a way, certainly, that would cast doubt on the notion that a Palestinian state exists. In one sense it doesn't, then, the one we are all familiar with. Hence your point is just. But the complication, as far as I understand it, arises when a state recognizes another area, not formally designated as a state, in terms of statehood. When Costa Rica did recognize Palestine as a state, it was exercising its own legal prerogative, and, in doing so, invests the Palestinian authorities with the diplomatic and technical rights accorded to other states and their representatives. The PLO/PA have de facto diplomatic and consular offices which are accorded the status given to diplomats from traditional, formally constituted states, virtually everywhere. They issue passports, one of the defining functions of a state, that are accepted by other states. Since states result not only from formal definitions, but also from recognition by other states, there seems to be some ambiguity of the kind that warrants the statement made in the text. I'd feel more comfortable with sets of references to the question. I.e. whether what is legally defined as an 'Occupied Territory' from which the Occupier under international law is required to withdraw eventually, can assume functions of a state if the Occupying Power proves reluctant, on whatever grounds, legitimate or otherwise, to withdraw? etc. The short version of my comment is 'I dunno', so I'll await further enlightenment. That Palestine is thus recognized widely seems sourced though, doesn't it?.Nishidani (talk) 14:42, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I've heard about such wide recognition fron numerous sources, so I can only suppose it's correct. But from what I've always known, the one defining characteristic of a state (of sovereignty, if you wish) is a monopoly over the use of force. It's a complex legal situation, for sure; but think about what you'd think, had you read the sentence, not knowing the reality of it. I'd get a very wrong notion, I think, of an actual state, like all those throughout the world, and not the ambiguous semi-autonomous half-nonexistent complex legal entity that it really is. okedem (talk) 15:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

One old definition is that a state exists when a central power assumes the prerogative of using force, for which it alone is armed, in exchange for guaranteeing order and measures of the rule of law to the disarmed population it controls. The right to coerce where necessary in exchange for the civil right to peace. In so far as in certain areas self-rule is allowed, and Israel is indeed empowering the PA with weaponry to police those areas negotiated for exclusive PA jurisdiction, the conditions of this kind of statehood do pertain to certain, not all parts, since Israel, the Occupying Power, recognizes the PA, representative of the Occupied People, as an authority with juridical, civil and policing authority. This is one of the fundamentals of a definition of a state, but doesn't apply to all the areas that are Occupied. As you say it is not clear-cut. It is also, geostrategically, mind you, not, in one reading, in Israel's interests to create or allow conditions of statehood, for in any such recognition, Israel loses far more de facto assets than it secures. That is one reason why, given the definition by the IJC that it is an occupied territory, and not under law, Israeli territory, but a territory from which Israel must eventually withdraw (unless Palestinians consent to its alienation), many nations accept Palestinian statehood (as described above) as a partial but de facto reality (in some strong versions of rabbinical thought, Israel is recognized de facto as a state, but not de jure, unless my Altzheimer's is getting the better of me). I personally would prefer to see something like this:-

Today, Palestine is often used to refer to a state, though it has yet to secure full formal statehood, and does yet meet the usual criteria governing the classic definition of a state. Notwithstanding the technical issue, a Palestinian state entity, whose precise boundaries are not yet agreed upon, has gained recognition as a diplomatic reality from over 100 countries in the world'.

.

That's only an off-the-cuff suggestion. The point you make is salient, and I hope other editors chip in on this one, to clarify any possible ambiguities.Nishidani (talk) 16:42, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Since Palestine & Israel both have arguable Political & Ideological connotations, why not have Palestine the article be a subsection of a greater article entitled The Holy Land or something similar where in which we properly discuss all the historical backgrounds for each of the given names " such as palestine " who uses these names, and why can be a very important part of such an article without getting into a non neutral discussion. This article appears to be perilously close to being against wikipedia's core neutral belief system.--Loganis (talk) 18:05, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Cloak & Dagger

The policy of conspiracy of 'Cloak & Dagger' adopted after Balfour to turn the declaration into a fact , is a fact or fiction? If it is a fact, was it replaced by or added to the "with us or not" policy adopted since September 2001? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.71.37.112 (talk) 17:48, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The Zionist occupation is built upon this. It is built upon using cloak and dagger concepts to come and destroy land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.40.234.146 (talk) 09:37, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Way to keep it intellectual mr unsigned. how does that contribute here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.132.18.249 (talk) 15:46, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Palestinian Nakba Omitted from Article?

Good morning, Administrators and Fellow Locked-out Ones.

— The event known to most of the world as "the catastrophe" (to Arabs: "Nakba") should be mentioned at least as early as the '47 partition, including the 1948 Deir Yassin Massacre.

— Also, there is no mention of Zionist-forced expulsion dating back to the early twentieth century. Instead, pseudo-scholars like Howard Sachar and Justin McCarthy are used almost exclusively throughout—including a section on "Arab Immigration to Palestine"(???); while merely a trace of contradictory Palestinian history is included within practically the entire article. This article is not neutral by any stretch: it is state-worship, namely, for the state of Israel.

This is not to say that Sachar, McCarthy, et al., should be outright deleted; but, it would be proper to include references to the mainstream scholars whose analyses differ from theirs. And how many times are pro-Israeli sources cited, like JewishVirtualLibrary and such? This is not scholarship; it is calculated agitprop.

"Historians" like Sachar and McCarthy are known to diminish Palestinian existence and claims to their land, and regularly apologize for Israel and Turkey—especially in relating certain events that are seen as ethnic cleansings by most of the world (e.g., Armenian Genocide, Palestinian Nakba, Deir Yassin, the 1967–present Israeli occupation). Even Israeli historians whose works are known to read as state-apologetics will say the Palestinian catastrophe was not mostly a result of Jordanian and Egyptian authorities telling Palestinian Arabs to flee their homes. A majority of respected historians the world over nominally agree that Zionist terror gangs ("terrorist organizations") drove most Palestinians off their land, beginning many years—even decades—before Deir Yassin and other Nakba-era atrocities. In all, a couple-hundred-thousand (at least) villagers were forced out through Zionist terror throughout the first half of the 20th century.

These are events that even Turkish and Israeli officials have admitted to carrying out: Menachim Begin, for example, did not deny massacres like Deir Yassin, and even detailed the larger strategy of conquest of the West Bank and Gaza as it was carried out by him and other Zionist militants who later became Israeli officials; yet, there is no mention of the Nakba or Deir Yassin in the current article. Shame. Even the trace mentioning of Zionist terror gangs is within the context of attempting to exonerate Israel of wrongdoing.

Wikipedia used to reflect a balance of mainstream, independent, and official accounts in its articles covering Levantine conflicts and histories. What happened?

It should be brought back; otherwise, the whole shabang—the article, the guidelines for editing it, and the page for discussing both—will simply appear as tools for marginalizing accounts that differ from state-approved agitprop.

Respectfully, Blogger4Liberty (talk) 06:59, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I stopped reading after "Zionist-forced expulsion dating back to the early twentieth century". With false claims like that... okedem (talk) 14:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The discussion of the Philistines is silly and irrelevant since Palestinians and Philistines have no historical relationship with each other. The article was extremely wordy and had to be revised-- three sentences were used when a word could have sufficed. It was also argumentative, eg. calling Israel Palestine. It is not. It was Palestine, from 1918-1948 but then it became Israel. Wishing does not make it otherwise. Also, the origin of the term Palestine was swept under the rug. For example, while authors went on and on about the Philistines (irrelevant) there was not mention that Palestine came to be not by Arabs but by Roman conquerors in 70 CE and that was corrected. My computer lacks tildes so I will sign it bigleaguer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigleaguer (talk • contribs) 18:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Gaza and West Bank cannot be called "occupied territories," they can be called "disputed territories" or "palestinian territories"

The West Bank is occupied. The Gaza strip is not occupied physically or legally by Israel. Thus, in line 4, when the WB & Gaza are collectively referred to (in the piped text for the link to Occupied Palestine), they cannot be called "occupied territories".

(funny but Jewish peoples started to enter palestine in the recent past declaring it "their" land in 1897 and in 1917 proclaimed it their own country. :http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/Declaration+of+Establishment+of+State+of+Israel.htm

The Mandate for Palestine July 24, 1922 http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/The%20Mandate%20for%20Palestine even recognises the fact that they were in palestine.

They then took over more land in 1948 http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Modern+History/Centenary+of+Zionism/The+Arab-Israeli+Wars.htm#1948

again more land in The Sinai Campaign of 1956 (Operation Kadesh)

again more land in The Six-Day War (June 1967)

if the government was accepted in 1922 how can they NOT have occupied more territory since the present territory claimed by Israel is far bigger than the agreed upon area in 1922 ? Chaosdruid (talk) 17:41, 31 December 2008 (UTC))

They can be called "disputed territories" (their legal staus, under current international law), "palestinian territories" (I don't like this because it can be confusing, but it enjoys widespread usage and so is acceptable), or "West Bank and Gaza Strip" (written out and not referred to as a collective group). Smaug 02:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

They are "occupied territories" --Ezzex (talk) 01:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The term "disputed territories" is used by the Israelis only. It's something they just made up, and it has no standing in international law, contrary to your assertion. The 2004 ICJ opinion found 14-0 that the West Bank and Gaza were under occupation, in line with the previous academic, legal, and diplomatic consensus that this was so. The 2005 re-deployment of Israeli forces from Gaza's interior to its borders did not change this occupied status, in the view of the Red Cross, Human Rights Watch, the Harvard Program on Humanitarian Policy and Conflict Research, and all other significant commentators I'm aware of, because Israel retained effective control over life in the Gaza strip. <eleland/talkedits> 03:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not dispute that in 2004 Gaza was occupied. The Red Cross, HRW, and Harvard don't have more legal authority than Israel. If you don't want to say "disputed territories" fine. That is a different argument. You cannot call them occupied just because Israel controls some of the borders. Egypt also controls a crossing. Supplying partial electricity and monitoring some borders does not qualify as occupation. Smaug 16:34, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

What about constant military incursions? MeteorMaker (talk) 17:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Going in and out is very different from making a maintained presence. The military incursions have been their own events, not a continuous occupation, and none were executed with an attempt at establishing any sort of military presence. Smaug 20:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the same can be said about, say, Fallujah. You could make the argument that it was not technically occupied after June 2003 when the US Army ended its military presence inside the city and pulled back to bases outside the city limit. I'm not aware of any such claims though, or even sure of what kind of point such a claim would try to make. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:44, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you trying to say that my argument is somehow less valid because the same argument has not been made in a similar situation (though I do not accept that the one you brought up is similar enough in the first place)? Tell me this; what is wrong with calling them "disputed territories?" Smaug 21:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

You should pose that question to world media outside Israel. While you can certainly find an occasional instance of the unilaterally-declared Israeli term "disputed territories", the term "occupied territories" is more than 300 times as common even on a traditionally Israel-friendly network like FoxNews. [3][4]. The White House, to make another valid example, never uses the term. [5]

My Fallujah parallel was just to put things in perspective. If it were a general rule that an occupied city or similar-sized area ceases to be under military occupation as soon as the occupying force withdraws to nearby bases just outside the city limits but continues to carry out operations at will, one would think there would have been plenty of examples in history. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

But the US occupies Iraq the country even if it doesn't occupy cities inside it. Gaza is not a city. Gaza is a territory from which Israel has fully withdrawn. As for the history example, I'm sure there are comparable things in history, but I can't just pull them out of thin air. I'm not saying people don't still call them occupied, I'm saying Gaza is not occupied and thus should not be called such by us. If you think it is occupied, tell me why? Is the fact that some continue to refer to it as occupied enough justificaiton in your mind? Smaug 00:19, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

If it were just "some", no probably not. However, as the examples I've given above indicate, "occupied territories" seems to enjoy almost universal acceptance outside Israel, while "disputed territories" is used by an extreme minority in media and not at all by the US government and other official bodies. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Is "occupied territories" used by official bodies, actually? I know lots of people still call them "occupied territories," but it doesn't make it correct. They've been occupied for years, you don't have to be anti-Israel to be ignorant of the legal reasons why Gaza isn't occupied now. You can say people refer to them as "occupied," but you can't say they are occupied. Smaug 18:43, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, the White House has always used the term "the occupied territories" [6] and never "the disputed territories"[7], and so have most .gov sites, though the plural was admittedly more common before the disbanding of the Gaza settlements. It's possible to make a case both for and against the existence of an ongoing occupation, but I'm inclined to think a mere redeployment of the occupation forces a couple of kilometers to the east and north changes very little. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:03, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

"a mere redeployment of the occupation forces a couple of kilometers to the east and north changes very little". Gaza is very small and borders Israel. I'm not sure what you expect Israel to do to un-occupy Gaza. Smaug 21:12, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Lifting the economic blockade and removing the sniper towers that surround Gaza are just two things that come to mind. More below. MeteorMaker (talk) 06:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

So, having guns pointed at a place is now cause for calling it occupied? As for the economic blockade, 1) what you call an "economic blockade" (I assume you refer to the crossing closures) has been lifted and re-applied many times, it is not some continuous policy. 2) a blockade of any kind is not occupation. Smaug 16:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

You didn't ask me for a definition of military occupation, you asked specifically what I think Israel could do to un-occupy Gaza, and removing the sniper towers and the blockade would be pretty high on the list if Israel in fact had that ambition. For the actual pro/con-occupation argument, see below. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You're right, I didn't ask for the definition, I asked for your definition of occupation, which seemed to be, and seems now to be, more broad than the formal definition. I guess we'll have to disagree about whether pointing guns at someone qualifies as occupying them. Smaug 21:27, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You didn't ask for my definition of occupation either, you asked what Israel could do to un-occupy Gaza, and I gave you two examples. If it's OK with you, I suggest we continue this discussion below, in the active part of the section. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

(sure, see below)

I would also like to add, as a side note to Eleland's eariler comments, that "disputed" and "occupied" are not mutually exclusive, and ruling that something is "occupied" does not mean it is not "disputed" as well. Smaug 21:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't that render your initial objection moot? MeteorMaker (talk) 22:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how. I object to calling Gaza occupied. Saying that it is incorrect to call Gaza "disputed" does not address my objection. In other words, I am not saying to say "disputed" instead of "occupied" because "disputed" is more correct, but rather because "disputed" has always been valid and remains so while "occupied" used to be valid but is no longer so. Smaug 00:19, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

If anything, by disbanding the illegal settlements in Gaza, Israel has acknowledged that GC4:49 applies. Most definitions of military occupation boil down to "the control of a country by military forces of a foreign power". There is no requirement that the military forces are based inside the area.

Well, Israel saw itself as removing legal settlements and civilians IN ADDTION to a withdrawal of military occupation. 1) I'm pretty sure Israel never put itself above the Geneva Conventions and has always seen itself as acting within their bounds. 2) I don't see how removing settlements is "acknowledging they are illegal." 3) Gaza was never occupied by virtue of the legal definition, which you have correctly quoted. Before 1948 Gaza was not a country under current international law. To this day it is not part of any country, and so the fact that it was militarily controlled does not make it occupied by that definition. (If you recognize Egypt as having annexed Gaza in 1948 then perhaps you could make that argument, but even then I do not know if it would hold, since Egypt and Israel have signed a peace treaty while Egypt did not control or make claims for Gaza.) This didn't matter before because Israel physically militarily occupied Gaza. The definition of occupation in the absense of physical presence didn't matter because Israel had a physical presence; it was occupying Gaza. Now, Isreal is not physically occupying Gaza. Since Gaza is not part of any country, it is also not legally occupying Gaza. Smaug 18:43, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

All that legal hairsplitting has one simple function: to defuse criticism against the Israeli occupation. Israel has always tried to claim the territories aren't occupied so they would not appear to violate GC4:49 (which prohibits building settlements on occupied land). All the necessary occupation criteria (complete military and economic control by a foreign power) have existed since at least 1967 and still do, and dismantling a few settlements has only removed one reason for Israel to try to uphold the non-occupation myth. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:03, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I could aruge that continuing to call Gaza occupied is an attempt to generate criticism against the Israeli occupation. Also, since Egypt controlled a crossing, there has not been complete economic control of Gaza. Israel also does not have troops on the Egypt-Gaza border. Egypt sometimes lets more people in or out or cracks down less on weapons smuggling than Israel would like. So don't tell me Israel has anything like "complete military control" when all it controls is the airspace and some of the borders. If Israel had military control, like it does in the WB, do you really think Hamas would have taken power? Do you think the palestinians would have even been able to have a "civil war" if Israel militarily controlled Gaza? Israel did not dismantle a "few settlements." Israel dismantled ALL Gaza settlements, uprooting its own people in an effort to disconnect from Gaza. It's nothing like the occupation Israel had before. Smaug 21:12, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't see anything wrong in criticising the occupation. Per the Paris Protocol, Israel controls every aspect of the economy in Gaza, as well as the airspace and maritime access. The area is closed to foreigners and Gazans are not allowed to travel outside Gaza without Israeli permission. They are not allowed to export anything, nor to import commodities like fuel or even transport water from the West Bank. They are not even allowed to have their own currency or self-defense forces. The IDF is based just outside the border and operates with impunity. The only (IMO, irrelevant) occupation criterium that is not fulfilled is that of nationhood - which hasn't been realized simply because Israel refuses to allow it. MeteorMaker (talk) 06:35, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't see anything wrong in defending an occupation. Perhaps people are more interested in accuracy if it supports a position they hold, and perhaps people are less likely to agree that something has changed if it doesn't support their position, but it doesn't make the change any less accurate. Re Paris Protocal: 1) It's from 1994 and it's a document of intentions, it shouldn't be assumed that things are in 2008 as they were intended to be from that, because they are not. 2) controlling airspace - does this count as an occupation? 3) maritime access - blockade, maybe, not occupation 4) Palestinians can import and export under the document you provided me with, and I recall them having done so in recent years. For temporary periods of time, the crossings are closed, but they are always re-opened. Of course they can import fuel. How could Israel cut-off fuel if it wasn't exporting fuel to the Palestinains in the first place? 5) The fact that nationhood hasn't been realized "simply" because Israel refuses to allow it doesn't change the fact that they do not have it. 6) is not being allowed to have "self-defense forces" a criteria for occupation? 7) I'm pretty sure they are allowed to have their own currency, they just don't. 8) The IDF is based just outside the border because Israel is just outside the border. You can't call military incursions occupation. Smaug 16:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Accuracy may have to take a back seat if one is explicitly "defending the occupation". As I've shown, the necessary criteria for an occupation are all there. We agree that tthe West Bank is occupied and there is no significant difference between Gaza and the West Bank except Gaza doesn't have Israeli settlements any more. Re the Paris Protocol, which to my knowledge has never been revoked, it stipulates that Israel control all imports to Gaza and the West Bank. Commodities like fuel, as you note, may only be imported through Israel, an artificial arrangement that has already been misused despite the humanitarian consequences. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You are critical of the occupation, I assume, and I am supportive of the occupation (of the WB and not Gaza, where one is not), I admit. My point is that accuracy doesn't have to take a back seat by virtue of either of us having an opinion. Also, defending or criticizing the occupation in general is a different argument than arguing whether an occupation exists in Gaza.

There is a significant difference. There are no Israeli controlled areas of any kind. There are no settlements, there are no soldiers, there are no Jews. Gazans can go anywhere they like. No roadblocks. No checkpoints. Nothing besides border controls. Also, I'm pretty sure that sometime since the Paris Protocol Israel has allowed Egypt to control one of the crossings, and give fuel and electricity to the Palestinians if they like. Besides which I do not consider a blockade a criteria for occupation, and I don't think international law does either. If it fits your personal definition, ok. You'll have to give me some reason why, for the purposes of this article (I'm not sure if we're discussing occupation in terms of what should go in the article or occupation in terms of a personal discussion right now, so ignore this sentence if the latter) we should go with your personal definition and not the definition by international law. As an additional note, I don't think importing fuel is a humanitarian issue, unless it endangers hospitals, but Israel allows in enough fuel/electricity for that, always. Smaug

You said "I could argue that continuing to call Gaza occupied is an attempt to generate criticism against the Israeli occupation", I objected that Israel's occupation cannot be above criticism. We agree that that is another discussion and that military occupation is a proper designation for the state of affairs in the West Bank. You list a number of claimed differences between the WB and Gaza, that in your opinion make sufficient difference to call Gaza non-occupied. Let's take a look at the facts:

* "There are no Israeli controlled areas of any kind". As I have shown, Israel controls the entire area, physically (airspace, maritime access, border crossings), economically (through having a monopoly on trade and monetary transactions and through restricting import and export) and militarily. To my knowledge, Gaza is not exempt from the restrictions imposed on the West Bank anyway, so no cigar there.

* "There are no settlements, there are no soldiers, there are no Jews." Neither settlements nor Jews are part of the definition of military occupation. Soldiers are, and Israel has numerous military bases surrounding Gaza, and makes frequent incursions. In the last year, more than ten times as many Gazans were killed by the IDF as West Bankers [8][9].

* "Gazans can go anywhere they like. No roadblocks. No checkpoints. Nothing besides border controls." Gazans cannot leave Gaza without permission from Israel. There may not be any roadblocks inside Gaza's huge 40*5 kilometers area, but the existence of roadblocks is not a requirement, and you can probably find similar-size areas in the WB without roadblocks that you probably agree still count as occupied.

* "Egypt [is allowed to] control one of the crossings, and give fuel and electricity to the Palestinians if they like." Israel has a de facto veto on opening the Rafah crossing, which has been closed since June 2007. Neither people nor goods are allowed in or out.

That makes three factual wrongs and one irrelevant of four possible. Arguably the fourth may change if Egypt and the EU dare to challenge Israel and open the Rafah crossing despite Israel's wishes, but that is currently not the case. MeteorMaker (talk) 00:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

(response to previous semithread) Obviously I didn't ask what Israel "could" do, since that would imply I considered it occupied. What I said was, "I'm not sure what you expect Israel to do to un-occupy Gaza." Meaning: at what point would you consider Israel to not occupy Gaza? I assumed that you have a definition of occupation that differed from mine, and that items you brought up to explain your position of considering Gaza occupied could be considered as part of your definition. If they aren't part of your definition in the first place, I fail to see the relevance. Smaug 01:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

* Israel may control the entire territory of Gaza by means of partial border control, etc., but within Gaza, the Gazans are free to do what they want. In the West Bank there are checkpoints and controls and a military presence inside it. (I don't count incursions as a presence, since that is not what are.)

* Again, bases surrounding a territory and incursions do not qualify as occupation. If palestinian suicide bombers frequently invaded Israel, would you call that an occupation?

* The fact that Gazans cannot leave without permission is not part of the criteria for occupation. The size of Gaza and the fact that the WB may or may not have Gaza-sized areas of free mobility is irrelavent. While Gaza's small size makes a blockade very severe, it does not mean it gets upgraded to the status of "occupation."

* Even if you ignore Egypt not always agreeing Israel's requests, it is just another border control.

The first case is you perhaps misunderstanding what I was getting at, the second case is true (there are no soldiers in Gaza - stating that Israel's army still stands on the border doesn't change this fact), the third case is also perahps misunderstanding (when I said Gazans can go anywhere, I meant anywhere in Gaza), and the fourth we'll disagree on and is not the main point in any case. Also, you look at whether Gaza is occupied by how it compares to another occupied territory, but that is not the way to do it at all; one should really start by taking the territory and seeing if it fills the criteria for a military occupation. It doesn't matter, really, how similar or different it is to occupations that exist in other territories. Smaug 01:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

In your suicide bomber example, yes, if a foreign power had complete freedom to strike any target (not just random targets) in a region with impunity, and regularly used that capability, I guess it would fulfill one of the requirements of a military occupation, despite the unconventional type of delivery vehicle. Occupation forces more typically use conventional weapons though, and Israeli tanks and helicopter gunships are a pretty common sight in Gaza. I doubt they were based inside the territory before 2005 either. Your hypothetical suicide bomber occupiers would of course also have the power to arrest large parts of the local government, and enforce a permanent ban on trade or even contact with the outside world.

Again: we agree that the West Bank is under military occupation. Most parts of the West Bank are further away from military bases than most places in Gaza. The IDF operates with impunity in both territories, and the restrictions on economy and freedom of movement are the same. The only difference is that Gaza doesn't have settlements any more, and thus no need for locally based army units. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

A few points: First, in WW2, Britain was bombing Germany constantly (and the other way around) - was one of them occupying the other? A state of war, which may include hostile actions, is not an occupation, and is distinct from it. One may have an occupation with no violent actions, and one may have violent actions without an occupation.

Second, before the Disengagement of 2005 some IDF forces definitely were based within the strip, in several bases and positions (strongholds), close to Gush Katif, the border with Egypt, the northern settlements, etc. Today IDF had many bases in the West Bank. The closeness of military forces has nothing to do with an occupation. A country can have its entire army stationed at the border with another (e.g. North and South Korea) - that's not an occupation.

Third, restriction of movement outside the territory does not constitute an occupation. Before the peace agreements, Israelis could not traverse any land border, because it was surrounded by hostile countries - but that's not an occupation. A country can be surrounded by hostile countries - that doesn't mean its occupied. okedem (talk) 08:45, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

You can't consider each aspect of an occupation in isolation. If all of your examples applied to one single area, like the case is in Gaza, that area clearly fulfills the requirements for the term military occupation, particularly if the area is also under complete economic control by the foreign power. Would you agree with Smaug and me that the West Bank is under occupation? MeteorMaker (talk) 09:21, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course I can, and do, consider each aspect independently, to see if the situation warrants the designation "occupation". It doesn't. The "military on the border" point is especially irrelevant. A country can have its military anywhere it wants to within its borders, and that cannot, in any way, be considered an occupation. That's a completely absurd notion. Of course the army is guarding the country's borders. By that logic, most countries in the world are occupying their neighbors, and vice versa. Same goes for closed borders - those are Israel's borders, and it can choose to do whatever it want to with them. Gaza has a border with Egypt.

What we have is a state of war with a neighboring territory. We don't have continuous military presence, we don't have any civilian presence, we don't have any rule of Israel over the strip, which is under the autonomous (and hostile) rule of Hamas. This is an independent territory, in a state of war with Israel. Israel is still kind enough to the civilian populace to give them a supply fuel, electricity, and food, when they're not trying to destroy the very border crossing that allow these transfers ([10], [11]). okedem (talk) 10:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

The West Bank is a disputed territory (de jure, lacking any sovereign claiming the land), under a state of military occupation. Thus, it may be called "occupied". This was Gaza's situation before 2005. okedem (talk) 10:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

(partial outdent)

(partial outdent) okedem makes all the points I would have made. I wouldn't call Gaza an "independent" territory, but besides that I agree with all that he wrote. Smaug 18:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Okedem supports his claim that Gaza is not under a state of military occupation with nothing more than the bald statement that it is not under a state of military occupation, which strikes me as somewhat circular. The IDF has always had free unobstructed access to the whole area, unlike border forces in any other country, which makes his "military on the border" parallel irrelevant. And as I've pointed out before, a civilian presence has never been a part of the definition of military occupation. Israels "kindness" manifests itself as complete containment of Gaza, and destruction of all facilities for communication with the outside world (such as the Yasser Arafat International Airport), and expressly forbids even transferring water from other parts of the Palestinian territories. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:29, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

MM, perhaps we can discuss this in another way - why don't you list the criteria for occupation (specifically as opposed to a simple state of war), as you see them (or, preferably, as some RS sees them), and we'll see how they apply to Gaza.

The "military at the border" thing wasn't brought up by me; I'm just refuting it as any indication of occupation. The military sometimes enters Gaza, though definitely not freely (enemy forces, such as Hamas, fight it). This is no different from any other state of war between two states. The IDF enters Gaza, or attacks from the air. Hamas et al occasionally invade on the ground, and constantly fire artillery at Israel.

Israel transfers water, power, fuel, food and medicine to Gaza. But that's an aside. Gaza has a border with Egypt, with no Israeli control. okedem (talk) 20:31, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Rather than the contrary, I interpret the existence of a resistance movement as another good indication that we are dealing with a bona fide military occupation here, and the same goes for Israel's fixation on keeping Gaza hermetically sealed off from the rest of the world (including the crossing to Egypt) and insistence that water, power, fuel, food and medicine must be transferred through Israel (and on misusing that arrangement to further their own political goals). The dictionaries typically defines the word "occupation" as "invasion, conquest, and control of a nation or territory by foreign armed forces"[12]. I have not been able to find one definition where local basing of the foreign armed forces is listed as a requirement. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:06, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

As Hamas constantly tries to smuggle rockets etc. into Gaza, which are then fired into Israel, Israel pressures Egypt to keep the crossing closed (it used to be open under EU oversight, until Hamas' coup). Still, Hamas breached the crossing, and it was open for several days. Israel had no control over it whatsoever, with Egypt deciding what to do.

The situation of Gaza now is that of a country under blockade, not occupied territory. A blockade does not equal an occupation. Israel has no troops there, doesn't control any of the civilian authorities, doesn't interact with the populace, doesn't control any infrastructure etc. What you call a "resistance movement", I call a foreign military. There's nothing to resist. Israel doesn't control anything there anymore. It pulled out all the troops and removed the bases and settlements back in 2005. Hamas, however, continued firing, instead of proving for once that they can (and/or want) to live in peace and care for the welfare of their own people.

I say again - if you want to call it occupied, please bring an RS to list the criteria for occupation, and we'll see how they fit. As far as I can see, this is a foreign entity under blockade, in a state of war, not occupied territory. okedem (talk) 21:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

You may have missed the dictionary definition I gave above: "Invasion, conquest, and control of a nation or territory by foreign armed forces"[13]. Again, I have not been able to find one definition where local basing of the foreign armed forces is listed as a requirement, like you claim. Discussion continues below. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MeteorMaker (talk • contribs) 11:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Then that definition is not detailed enough to support your position. As there are no foreign armed forces in Gaza, it is difficult to claim there is an occupation there. Using this definition, how would an occupation end? I see it ending by the withdrawal of foreign forces. okedem (talk) 11:57, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I guess an occupation ends when the foreign armed forces are not used to exert control over the territory any more. That's the simple negation of the state described in that definition. The IDF has not left Gaza, except in the very narrow sense that they have no garrisons there any more - which is hardly necessary, as their bases are located just a few kilometers away. I venture to guess that the bulk of the forces assigned to Gaza always have been stationed on the Israeli side of the border. MeteorMaker (talk) 14:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

So, in your set of definitions, is it ever possible for an occupation to end and a state of war between entities begin? Or once the occupation started, it can only end via peaceful solution? Because this is what I see here. The current situation seems to me to be no different from a war between states, with one using its army to partially blockade the other (partially because of the border under Egypt's control). In your view, if this exact situation was to happen elsewhere, without a previous occupation, would it constitute an occupation by itself? Or is the history necessary?

When Israel was controlling Gaza, it had multiple bases within the strip. After most of the strip (like Gaza city) was transferred to PA control after the Oslo accords, the army presence was somewhat diminished, but was still large, mostly to defend the settlers of Gush Katif and the few other settlements, and the series of outposts along the border with Egypt (Philadelphi corridor), to prevent smuggling of arms from Egypt's Rafah to Gaza's Rafah. Naturally, there was also army presence along the border, on Israel's territory. okedem (talk) 15:04, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The key word in all definitions is "control". The tool for Israel's control over Gaza is military force, hence military occupation. I don't see the state of war you see between the PA and Israel either, or how the activities of several resistance movements can be considered proof of the absence of an occupation. Re the IDF's military presence in Gaza before the disengagement, do you know the approximate numbers? MeteorMaker (talk) 16:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

No, but you haven't answered my question. If the same set of circumstances were to occur elsewhere, would it be an occupation? If the current state of affairs would have been after there were two states, which got in a war, and one partially blockaded the other, as Israel now does - would that be considered an occupation? Or is the history of this case necessary? Do you consider the legal aspects over exactly who is the sovereign necessary?

Israel has declared Gaza to be a hostile entity after Hamas' coup, and Hamas forces are considered an enemy (and Hamas considers Israel an enemy). As Hamas is the de-facto ruler of Gaza - it appears there's a state of war. Both sides fire on each other, using the means available to them; both sides conduct incursions into the other's territory. While Israel's incursions are naturally larger, they are still incursions, as happens in wars, and not a continual presence. Israel wields no power over any civilian matters, and has no interaction with the civilian population of Gaza.

To call it resistance is rather strange - after Israel withdrew its settlers and forces, Hamas only increased its attacks - so what are they resisting now?

I'm sorry, I don't have any numbers, but the presence was substantial. okedem (talk) 16:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The exact same set of circumstances is hard to find, but naturally, that would warrant the term "military occupation" too. As about the goal of the resistance, I assume it is the traditional, to put an end to the occupation. As long as the borders are hermetically sealed and Israel controls Gaza's economy, it's not correct to say that Israel wields no power over any civilian matters, or has no interaction with the civilian population of Gaza. Just one example: the nightly sonic booms that low-flying IAF jets terrorize the Gazans with.

"The stress is phenomenal," said Eyad El Sarraj, a psychologist and director of Gaza Community Mental Health Programme, one of the groups filing the petition. "The Israelis do it after midnight and then every one or two hours. You try to go to sleep and then there's another one. When it happens night after night you become exhausted. You get a heightened sense of alert, waiting continuously for it to happen. People suffer hypertension, fatigue, sleeplessness.

"For children, the loud noise means danger. Adults may know it's only a sound but small children feel threatened. They are crying and clinging to their parents. Afterwards they are dazed and fearful, waiting for something to happen."

The UN Palestinian refugee agency said a majority of the patients seen at its clinics as a result of the sonic booms were under 16 and suffering from symptoms such as anxiety attacks, bedwetting, muscle spasms, temporary loss of hearing and breathing difficulties.[...]The Palestinian health ministry estimates the sonic booms have caused at least 20 miscarriages.''

Re the number of IDF soldiers based in Gaza before 2005, would you say they were more like 10,000 than 1,000, or perhaps 100, at any one time?MeteorMaker (talk) 16:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

First - Gaza has a border with Egypt, and Egypt does whatever it wants there. If Egypt chooses to keep that border closed, it's their choice, and Israel has no control over it (just like Israel took no action when Hamas breached that border a few months ago).

Israel's control over the economy is only external - Israel transports goods into Gaza, but has no control over what happens to them inside. This leads to some negative results, like Hamas taking all the fuel for itself (and leaving a lot in the tanks in the Gazan side), but claiming there's no fuel for hospitals.

The sonic booms that sometimes occur are nothing compared to what Hamas et al have been doing to the people of Sderot and the neighboring villages in Israel. They've been suffering daily firings of rockets and mortar bombs for years now, living in the constant fear of being killed (and occasionally being killed, when they don't get to the shelter fast enough, or when the alarm doesn't go off). By that logic, Hamas is occupying Sderot...

Soldiers - I'd say a few thousand at any given time. Remember, there were about 8,000 settlers to guard in very hostile territory, and a line of outposts along the Egyptian border. Before the Oslo accords there was greater army presence, but I can't even guess how many. I wasn't really interested in the subject at the time... okedem (talk) 20:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Gaza has a border with Egypt, but it remains closed, and one would have to be very naïve to believe it's Egypt's sole decision. The sonic booms "occur" when IAF jets are deliberately flown at supersonic speeds over densely populated area at treetop level in the middle of night, several times per night. That kind of collective punishment of civilians is expressly forbidden in the Geneva Conventions and your comparing them to Qassam attacks is entirely appropriate. The number of IDF soldiers actually based inside Gaza, even with your exceptionally high estimate of 1 soldier per 2-3 civilians, was always insignificant compared to the number based just outside the border. Nothing in any definition of military occupation that I'm aware of is negated by moving a forward-based brigade a couple of kilometers. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Egypt is a sovereign nation, that makes its own choices. If it chooses to close the border, even if this is at Israel's request, it is still their own choice.

The sonic booms are not anywhere as common as the rocket/mortar attacks, and even if they were, noise is nothing like actual rockets flying to kill you, with sirens going off at all hours giving you 8 seconds to run to safety if you want to live. Sorry, as bad as the noises can be, they cannot be compared with willful attacks on civilian targets, with the express intention of killing as many civilians as possible.

Perhaps the estimate sounds high to you, but you'll have to trust me here, those are the kind of numbers we're talking about. You keep bringing up the "just outside the border" thing - I say again, that's irrelevant. Nations can keep their military wherever they want within their sovereign territory, during peace or war. They usually keep strong forces near their borders, for obvious reasons. That has nothing to do with occupation, and proves nothing. It's just irrelevant.

So, back to our point - in what ways does Israel "control" the Strip, and what would be required to end the occupation, in your view? Can there be a transition between occupation and war between entities (as I say happened), or would an occupation only end if it is followed by peace? Specifically, sonic booms, blockade, military incursions - these are all elements you commonly see in wars between states, with no occupation involved. What's different here? okedem (talk) 21:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

We are running in circles here, the indent level is getting ridiculous, and this exchange is hidden away in a place that no-one reads, plus I need to do some hard IRL work this week, so I offer a truce. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I am interested in your answers to my questions, since they seem to show a different perception, a different viewpoint, regarding this. If you wish, I'd be glad to continue this on my talk page, at a later time.

Anyway, regarding this article - I repeat what I said below, to Nishidani - regardless of what word we use (occupied or not), we should give the details of the situation ("In 2005 Israel removed... still control..."), so the reader can make up his/her own mind, instead of only relying on the one word we choose to use. I believe you too can agree to that, right? okedem (talk) 12:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

okedem Okedem this is a question to be determined by authoritative legal opinion in consensus, not by amateurs. Until recently international law spoke of the 'Occupied Territories'. Occupation is ruled by specific laws (Hague Convention 1907. 4th Geneva Convention) which, despite Israel's unilateral withdrawal, it is still obliged to comply with, such as furnishing food, water and basic necessities to the people inside the strip. The several Gazan winners of Fulbright scholarships cannot yet take their grants and go to the United States because of Israeli obstacles. One could cite many other examples of Israel, though no longer present as settlement power within the Strip, still exercises 'authority' over the strip (and 'authority' if I recall correctly, is a key term in the legal situationd defining 'Occupied Territory'. The term therefore has not been disputed, until raised here. If you therefore wish to dispute the adequacy of the accepted term in international language (and perhaps you have a point) it is you who are obliged to cite recent legal sources that challenge the standard scholarly and legal definition down to 2005. Your remarks above are, disappointingly, not focused on evidence, but on a serious of impressions. Regards Nishidani (talk) 21:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The question of occupation is a very complicated one, with multiple interpretations. I lack the time to review and present the different opinions here, though I still hold that you should present a source for the meaning of an occupation, and how it differs from a blockade during war-time.

I leave you with these words: "Gaza is not occupied, so why should Israel have any role [at the Gaza-Egypt border crossing] when it has no presence on the border between Egypt and Gaza?", spoken by Mohammed Nuseir, a member of Hamas' political bureau, perhaps momentarily forgetting the party line ([14]). Also, here's a column about the difficulty of the definition: [15]. Another interesting read on the subject (though from a seemingly partisan source): [16], and Washington Post column: [17]. Good day. okedem (talk) 07:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Zvi Barel's in ref 13 says the Egyptian government position is that Gaza is occupied.Dore Gold is not a reliable source, nor are declarations by Hamas officials. These definitions are determined by law, not by spokesmen.

Note 14,only underlines the tenuousness indeed parlousness of any attempt by Wiki editors to alter the terminological status quo. It reads in part (undoing your own confident assertions).

. Last week, I asked Secretary-General Ban whether he considers Gaza to be occupied, and he wisely sidestepped the question, highlighting instead the dire humanitarian conditions inside the strip.With this fast-changing, increasingly ominous state of affairs, the word "occupation" is meaningless, a State Department official told me recently. Definitions in various, at times conflicting, sets of international treaties and agreements known as "international law" are also inconclusive. In the read of some legal scholars, the fact that the Israelis control Gaza's air, sea, and telecommunications indicates that their occupation there is not over. Opponents cite a 1907 Hague treaty that defines occupied territory as one "actually placed under the authority of the hostile army"; and the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, which holds that occupation ends when the controlling power no longer "exercises the functions of government" over the territory in question.Like religious scriptures, so-called international law requires much wise interpretation, and, unlike in the case of the American Constitution, there is no credible world Supreme Court to determine a correct reading. BENNY AVNI The O Word: Is Gaza Occupied Territory? February 11, 2008

Please note that the Secretary-General of the UN cannot determine the issue one way or another (b) Legal definitions are inconclusive (c)The 1907 and IV Geneva Convention agreements define 'occupation' not as a physical act of possession but as being 'under authority' and this can be construed as meaning Gaza is still occupied (the point I made) (d)NO credible court exists to rule on this, (and therefore overturn standard legal descriptions of the Strip as occupied).

In short the source you cite does not support the change in terminology you propose. Until specialist legal scholarship determines that a change in customary status has effectively occurred, we cannot permit ourselves, as editors, to decide the question unilaterally, and idiosyncratically. A long tradition of calling the Strip 'occupied territory' exists. When the legal situation is redefined by international judgements to alter that, we can record the change of status. So far, the literature suggests, no such change in terminology has found its way into established usage.Nishidani (talk) 08:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) I make no claims of these links being RSs, and did not bring them to prove a point, only as interesting reads. Just a note - traditions, even long, don't determine what words we should or shouldn't use.

The solution here should be in making sure that whatever words we end up using, the facts should be made clear to the reader in the text. Meaning, we shouldn't simply say "Gaza is occupied", but explain what that means, that Israel disputes that claim, and why. okedem (talk) 08:52, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

There are worrying signs recently that wiki editors are taking it upon themselves to challenge standard usage (massacre etc) on many pages. Your suggestion is another example. The 'traditions' I speak of are legal traditions, precedents. What you have in Gaza is an extremely complex legal situation in which Israel perhaps asserts it does not 'occupy' the land, Egypt regards it as 'occupied', the standard legal conventions imposed on Israel as occupying power down to the unilateral disengagement are still, to my knowledge, technically operative, and stem from legal readings and precedents relating to conventions such as those of Hague 1907 and the Fourth Geneva Convention. If the Gaza Strip were not, in this sense, 'occupied' by Israel, technically Israel would not be held responsible for seeing adequate minimal rations and fuel supplied. The point is a highly technical one. If you have an official Israeli government document outlining why, after the disengagement, Israel no longer regards the Strip as 'occupied' (if I have missed such a document) I would appreciate you referring me to it. I dislike newspapers or spokesmen for political groups, as sources for technical matters. Regards Nishidani (talk) 09:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you could clue me in as to what exactly is that worrying suggestion I'm making. That we should clarify the details for our readers, instead of only using the word "occupied" (or not-occupied)?

Israel has made that claim before the supreme court, but I haven't found the actual text. Maybe you'll find it, if you have the time. Here a supreme court decision regarding this issue, please see section 12: [18].

Here's a scholarly source for the issue: [19], and also [20].

I say again - I brought those links as interesting reads I came by, and specifically not as RSs, so your comment is out of place.

Now can we end it? If you have issue with what I said above (prvide details), I'll find that very strange. If you don't - I'm ending this argument (between us, can't speak for anyone else). I don't have the time for it. okedem (talk) 09:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Most of these issues Israelis raise document Israeli usage or court decisions. This is a matter of international law. At the most whatever an Israeli court, supreme or otherwise, adjudicates, tells us what israeli law holds. This is an Israeli POV, and can be registered as such. You seemed to, as is frequent in discussions of 'disputed/occupied territories', to be confusing Israel's perspective with international law, which is neutral as to national POVs. Israeli court rulings cannot be used as though they represented the de jure definition of the Gaza Strip, since this is something determined by international law. I'll look over the sources. Nishidani (talk) 10:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Nishidani, you specifically asked me for "an official Israeli government document", and I provided you with the closest thing I found. Don't accuse me of confusing anything. If you have issue with providing details rather than just saying "occupied", explain. If not - I'm done here. okedem (talk) 10:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

And I thank you for the ref. As I said, I'll look over it. I repeat, many of your remarks are off the point technically, and show little technical understanding of the question. You have just called Hamas's certified victory in the elections, and its resistance to the PA-American attempt at a coup d'état' (see Vanity Fair for dertails) a coup d'état. This goes well down in newspapers, but I am under the impression that as wikipedians, whatever our private takes on things, we are obliged to follow the relevant factual and interpretative records, and not protest at a text because we disagree with it personally. Hamas has never conducted a coup. It won the elections, was duly certified as having won them fairly, and suppressed a coup. It is thus the legal administrative heir of the preceding PA regime in the Gaza Strip, however much political spin may wish to deny these facts. Israel wages war as it always has, defining its own actions as counter-terrorism, preventive war, etc. That is its right, and its POV. It is not the whole story. This requires repeating because we are assailed by a huge barrage of TV and newspaper 'news' that ignores the better informed technical literature on these issues, and to allow Wikipedia to be swamped or influenced by this barrage is to disqualify it as a serious source of objective information,Nishidani (talk) 16:31, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Nishidani, as fascinating as the discussion of me can be, I ask you to stop it. It is both annoying, and useless. More than that, it is false. I call Hamas' violent actions in the Gaza Strip a coup, and I shall continue to do so. I am well aware of the facts in the matter, including the election results. Still, it was a bloody coup. Had I wrote "coup" in an article, you could say that was my own POV, and I should use an NPOV phrasing. But this is a talk page, and in it, I shall use whatever phrasings I damn well please, and I don't intend to accept your criticism or insults for them.

Moreover, you've taken a completely off-topic point, and used it to build a case against myself, as if I have "little technical understanding of the question". In fact, I've continually tried to discuss the issue to the point, as my discussion with MM above can easily show.

While discussing it with you, I've also tried to stick to the point, as concisely as possible, but you seem bent on arguing with me, even resorting to insulting criticism. If you'll notice, my discussion with you has ended - I've already agreed that the issue is very complex, with differing opinions. I said I don't have the time for the research of it. I've also said that the main thing isn't what word we use, but that we present the details of the situation, thus allowing the readers to understand the situation better, instead of relying on our single word - "occupation" (or non-occupation). You have not replied to this, but instead decided to analyze my so-called flaws. You've used every perceived chance to attack me somehow, including the court document above, which you asked for, but then claimed "You seemed to, as is frequent in discussions of 'disputed/occupied territories', to be confusing Israel's perspective with international law". No, you asked for an official Israeli document, I presented it. Did that stop you? No, you tried to attack me in another patronizing way.

What an enjoyable discourse we have. okedem (talk) 20:49, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

If you don't have the time to do the research required by the point you wish to make, which is subjective, then I suggest the proper thing is to hold off until you have reasonable documentation for what you wish to edit in to the article. I'm afraid at this point you too misread what is a query for clarify as a remonstration. Ii assume a right to correct what I perceive to be grossly uninformed opinions, such as those you asserted about Hamas. You raised them, I commented. As I would comment that while no sane person approves of Qassems, no sane person, contrary to appearances, should speak of the victimization of Israeli civilians, when in 2007, the statistics say of the 457 Palestinians killed, some 92 were children (as against 10 Israelis and I child). I will refrain from soapboxing, but with that kind of kill ratio, the kind of remarks you make in here do sound, to put in kindly, emotively unbalanced, and lacking a judicious sense of proportion. No insult intended, and I gladly leave it at that.Nishidani (talk) 21:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Break

Seeing that you present the term "Palestinian territories" as an acceptable alternative, what about using that? MeteorMaker (talk) 07:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I was about to suggest that myself. :) It's not the best term, since the word "Palestinian" has changed over time, and this article spans a long time, but "Palestinian territories" has such widespread usage and is not incorrect so I will accept it. Smaug 18:43, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted that change because it's basically a tautology:

As a geographical, apolitical term, in its broadest application, Palestine can be used to refer to 'ancient Palestine', an area that includes contemporary Israel and the area today referred to as the Palestinian territories.

"Palestine can be used to refer to [...] the area today referred to as the Palestinian territories". The original version " Palestine can be used to refer to [...] the occupied territories" didn't have this flaw, and I see no gain in introducing it. MeteorMaker (talk) 12:58, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

it's ok, been fixed by someone else to what we had agreed upon by your own suggestion. Smaug 01:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it got restored inadvertently in a revert, so I have removed the tautology again. Perhaps it can be phrased differently. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:21, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how it is a tautology. The "Palestinain territories" and "Palestine" are two different things. Furthermore, this is a definition. We're not just using "Palestine" as the subject noun in some sentence, we are defining what the word means; to what area the word refers. You may as well call any definition a tautology. Smaug 18:14, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Definitions rarely consist of recursions to the term they define, so we seem to disagree slightly about the definition of "definition" here. :) Your rewrite looks for all the word like a tautology even though the denotations of "Palestine" and "the area today referred to as the Palestinian terrritoties" may technically be different. I have not reverted, though I still encourage you to find a better and less confusing alternative if the original term "the occupied territories" is unacceptable to you. MeteorMaker (talk) 16:38, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I have partially removed the tautology. It now reads: "Palestine can be used to refer to [...] the Palestinian territories" instead of "Palestine can be used to refer to [...] the area today referred to as the Palestinian territories". Still, the definition sounds too circular for my taste, so it's probably best rewritten, MeteorMaker (talk) 15:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Jewish immigration

There seems to be discussion on Arab immigration, yet at the same time there was large scale Jewish immigration into the region as well. Perhaps we should also discuss that.Bless sins (talk) 01:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Add it in, if you think it should be. Be bold. Smaug 18:21, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Error on page - Roman Era.

"this is demonstrated by the continued existence of the rabbinical academy of Lydda in Judea" is incorrect. The rabbinical academy was in Iamnia (Jamnia, modern day Yavne), not Lyddia ( modern day Lod).

As can be seen here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavne —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guysoffer (talk • contribs) 23:44, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Why is the Canaanite period entirely neglected ?

The Canaanite and it's Phoenician offspring were vibrant civilizations. Why is their era left unmentioned? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sun of truth (talk • contribs) 09:15, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

The Canaanites are discussed in the section "Chalcolithic period (4500–3000 BCE) and Bronze Age (3000–1200 BCE)". I don't know how much we actually know about them, so I don't know the potential for writing more about them in this article.

I don't think the Phoenicians settled in Palestine, but rather just to the North of it. okedem (talk) 10:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

How can it be referred to as "ancient Palestine?" Pre-Israel it was called Canaan and Philistines lived there, not Palestinians. It wasn't until the Romans conquered Israel that they named in Palestine. Is that what you mean by "ancient?" I'm not sure the word is appropriate as it makes it sound older than Israel and has political connotations.Susanthedefender (talk) 09:02, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't mean anything by "ancient", as I didn't use that word.

But the thing is - this area has had several names throughout the ages, but we want to discuss its entire known history. So - what do we call it? It's been decided to choose the more commonly used name, which is Palestine. Much like in an article about America, you discuss the ancient cultures there, the ones that got there many thousands of years before it was named after Amerigo Vespucci.

Note - when it was called Canaan, the Canaanites lived there. The Philistines arrived at about the same time as the Hebrews. okedem (talk) 09:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

How Israelites came to exist

In the section called hebrew bible period there is only a mention of one way Israelites came to exist. However, there are other POVs and additional two mentioned in a link in this this paragraph: 1- Isralites were nomads in the neighbouring transjordanian desert. 2- Trditional biblical view that they came from egypt. The 1st one is the most widely accepted among achaelogists. And There is also achaelogical evidence supporting the second account. Since the page is locked I was unable to add anything, however I suggest this additional info be added and I can provide refernces for the first account. Thanks, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sun of truth (talk • contribs) 01:20, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Former countries

Needs to be added to Category:Former countries in Asia

There was never a country by the name of "Palestine". It was just a territory under various powers' control (Mameluk, Ottoman, British Mandate). okedem (talk) 09:43, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Palestine is a country

NOT a geographical area. Palestine is a country, above your noses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.90.43.214 (talk) 20:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Nope. No such country. Never was such a country. okedem (talk) 20:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I suppose that is something akin to arguing that Guam doesn't exist. Palestine certainly was a sovereign territorial jurisdiction of the Western Powers through their Protectorates of the Holy See, the French Protectorate of Jerusalem, and various other Consular missions.

The Western Powers, including the United States, had secured capitulations and concessions from the Ottomans which granted them legal jurisdiction over their own citizens and corporations doing business in the territories of the Ottoman Mideast,including Palestine.

Under a 'Treaty of Amity and Navigation', The United States established Consuls for Syria and Palestine, with US government establishments in Damascus, Beirut, Nazareth, Haifa, Jerusalem, Acre, and several other locations from 1832-1914. see for example American Consuls in the Holy Land, 1832-1914, By Ruth Kark, Published by Wayne State University Press, 1994 ISBN 0814325238 A map showing the extent of the US consular jurisdiction of Palestine is available via google books or the US National Archives (NARA), RG59 T471/11 (fi2477) 29 Jun 1910, page 201.

Many other government records are available online in the University of Wisconsin Digital Collection, under Foreign Relations of the United States (1861-1958/1960). Here for example is a communication of sympathy sent by the Counsel for Syria and Palestine in 1865, in the aftermath of the Lincoln assassination.

This means the US government (of Palestine) could arrest and try Americans in their own Palestinian Courts, under their own Palestinian laws or decrees. Conversely, many Armenians, Syrians, and Palestinians went to America acquired wealth and US citizenship and returned to their native land and enjoyed complete immunity from Ottoman laws. see for example: The Turkish American Controversy over Nationality, Leland J. Gordon, The American Journal of International Law, Vol. 25, No. 4 (Oct., 1931), pp. 658-669.

The US Supreme Court explained these extra-territorial legal jurisdictions: 'At that time, statutes authorized American consuls to try American citizens charged with committing crimes in Japan and certain other "non-Christian" countries. These statutes provided that the laws of the United States were to govern the trial except:". . . where such laws are not adapted to the object, or are deficient in the provisions necessary to furnish suitable remedies, the common law and the law of equity and admiralty shall be extended in like manner over such citizens and others in those countries; and if neither the common law, nor the law of equity or admiralty, nor the statutes of the United States, furnish appropriate and sufficient remedies, the ministers in those countries, respectively, shall, by decrees and regulations which shall have the force of law, supply such defects and deficiencies."... ..."Under these statutes consuls could and did make the criminal laws, initiate charges, arrest alleged offenders, try them, and after conviction take away their liberty or their life - sometimes at the American consulate." [REID v. COVERT, 354 U.S. 1 (1957)]

The United States refused to recognize the British Mandate for Palestine, for a period of two years after the two countries had signed the Palestine Mandate Convention. The US claimed that American's still enjoyed immunities - even in British Palestine. Links to various documents outlining the dispute are available here: [United States Department of State Papers relating to the foreign relations of the United States, 1922-1925] harlan (talk) 01:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

And yet, it still isn't a country. Likely to be? I think so. But per WP:CRYSTAL, not yet. IronDuke 02:02, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Nice links, but being given legal jurisdiction has absolutely nothing with the status of the region as an independent country. The region was not a country, as it was not sovereign, self-ruling, independent in any way. okedem (talk) 05:07, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

No one would argue that the 19th century 'Germans' weren't a nationality simply because they lacked a single contiguous territory or jurisdiction. The same thing applies to the Dutch speaking people of Flanders, despite the fact that they are part of a Belgian Confederation. Palestinian representatives to the Pan-Syrian Congress helped proclaim 'an independent Arab Kingdom of Syria' in 1920. France subsequently decided to overthrow that indigenous government, but that doesn't change the historical fact that Palestine and the Palestinians were recognized as a distinct country and people.

The Anglo-French Declaration of November 7, 1918 stated 'In pursuit of those intentions, France and Great Britain agree to further and assist in the establishment of indigenous Governments and administrations in Syria and Mesopotamia which have already been liberated by the Allies, as well as in those territories which they are engaged in securing and recognising these as soon as they are actually established. Far from wishing to impose on the populations of those regions any particular institutions they are only concerned to ensure by their support and by adequate assistance the regular working of Governments and administrations freely chosen by the populations themselves.'

It has been a matter of public record for some years now that the UK Cabinet met to discuss their Palestine commitments on 5 December 1918, and admitted that "The Palestine position is this. If we deal with our commitments, there is first the general pledge to Hussein in October 1915, under which Palestine was included in the areas as to which Great Britain pledged itself that they should be Arab and independent in the future." see Palestine Papers, 1917-1922, Doreen Ingrams, page 48 from the UK Archive files, formerly PRO CAB 27/24.

It is also a matter of public record that Prime Minister Lloyd George claimed (1) The McMahon-Hussein Notes were a treaty obligation;(2) That the agreement with Hussein had actually been the basis for the Sykes-Picot Agreement;(3) That the French could not use the proposed League Of Nations Mandate System to break the terms of the Hussein Agreement; (4)That the French agreed NOT to occupy the area of the independent Arab state, or confederation of states, with their military forces including the areas of Damascus, Homs, Homa, and Allepo. see pages 1-8 of the minutes of the meeting of the Council of Four starting here: 'The Council of Four: minutes of meetings March 20 to May 24, 1919, page 1'

US Secretary of State Robert Lansing was a representative at the Paris Peace Conference, and he was worried about the practical implications of the notion of 'self determination'. He pointed this out in his book 'The Peace Negotiations', "Will not the Mohammedans of Syria and Palestine and possibly of Morocco and Tripoli rely on it? How can it be harmonized with Zionism, to which the President is practically committed?" Page 97.

'The Secretary's Notes of a Conversation Held in M. Pichon's Room at the Quai d'Orsay, Paris, on Thursday, 27th February, 1919, at 3 p. m.' were subsequently published in the FRUS. They revealed the official exchange between Secretary Lansing and Dr. Chaim Weizmann, Nahum Sokolow, and the other members of the Zionist Mission: 'MR. LANSING asked Dr. Weizmann to clear up some confusion which existed in his mind as to the correct meaning of the words "Jewish National Home". Did that mean an autonomous Jewish Government? DR. WEIZMANN replied in the negative.' Lansing's book caused quite a sensation, and it was followed by André Tardieu's book 'The Truth about the Treaty' which included a copy of the agenda used at the Peace Conference to address the question of various 'nationalities':

III. Oriental Questions:
a. Liberation of nationalities oppressed by the former Ottoman Empire :
Armenia
Syria and Cicilia
Arab States
Palestine

So the British, French, and American governments knew exactly where Palestine was located, they had operated their own consulates and protectorates there for over a hundred years. They considered the people living there a 'nationality'. They had also agreed to an Arab state, or confederation of states, including Palestine. They had specifically mentioned the Sharif of Mecca in the text of the Sykes-Picot Agreement in that connection. The British and French had also agreed not to occupy the Arab state or states. After the Palestinian nationals had joined the new Arab confederation, the French overthrew it. The British, through the Churchill White Paper of 1922, pretended that Palestine had always been excluded from the area of Arab independence set out in the McMahon-Hussein Agreement, but now, hopefully, we all know that wasn't truly the case.

Lord Grey had been the Foreign Secretary during the McMahon-Hussein negotiations. Speaking in the House of Lords on the 27th March, 1923, he made it clear that, for his part, he entertained serious doubts as to the validity of the British Government's (Churchill's) interpretation of the pledges which he, as Foreign Secretary, had caused to be given to the Sharif Hussein in 1915. He called for all of the secret engagements regarding Palestine to be made public.'Report of a Committee Set Up To Consider Certain Correspondence Between Sir Henry McMahon and The Sharif of Mecca' harlan (talk) 14:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't see anybody here above denying there was a "palestinian" nationality. Scholars locate the merging of a pure (Arab) Palestinian feeling in 1920, after Fayçal was pushed out Syria by the French. Some even think it started at the mid of the XIXe century.

But a national feeling doesn't make a country. Ceedjee (talk) 15:17, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The Pan-Syrian Congress was an expression of Syrian and Palestinian nationalism. It issued a declaration of independence for a new Arab state. These United States of America were established in exactly the same way. The Emir Hussein wasn't speaking for Hedjaz alone, he was incorporating the demands of the Syrian al-Fattat and the Iraqi al-Ahd movements in his correspondence with McMahon. Sir Henry was certainly acquainted with the aspirations of the Arab nationalists, like Faruqi, of the Ahd group. Hussein's notes were passed along to Lord Edward Grey, who was also conducting the negotiations with the French. An Arab state, or Arab confederation of States, had been in the works and on the international agenda, long-before they were ever mentioned in the Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916. harlan (talk) 16:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Nobody denies there was a Palestnian Arab nationalism feeling and nobody denies there was a Pan-Arab nationalism between Syria and Palestine.

But the here above editors wrote there was not "Palestinian State" and had never been any. Ceedjee (talk) 16:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The topic actually speaks about a country, but Syria and Palestine were, briefly, units within a larger state. I've already mentioned that the US Congress had passed statutes that authorized certain consuls to exercise authority in Non-Christian 'countries'. Palestine was included among the 'countries' that the legislation specifically addressed. The Pan-Syrian Congress didn't declare a national feeling. They declared a new Arab union with a King as the head of State. Here in America, the individual states didn't cease to exist when the federal union was established. They still retained their individual identities and sovereign immunities, even in our federal courts. After WWI, the United Kingdom instituted home rule for the commonwealths that works in much the same way. P.S. I am not suggesting that all Palestinians supported the Pan-Syrian union. Many southerners didn't support the idea of secession or the Confederate States of America. All that means is that King Fiesal and Jefferson Davis were on the losing end of military conflicts, and they didn't have universal support. harlan (talk) 17:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok. But I don't understand what you would like to change in the article ? Ceedjee (talk) 17:56, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no state of Palestine. The simple fact that we cannot locate this proves so. Whole former Palestine, West Bank + Gaza, West Bank only, with or without Jerusalem ???

Nevertheless, "The Palestinian state [to come] has been recognized by numerous countries in 1988 after its proclamation : see here (at the contrary of the one proclamed in september 1948).

On wp:fr, we solved this issue in having an article Palestine (revendicated state) (fr:Palestine (État revendiqué)).

Ceedjee (talk) 11:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

re:Palestine is a country, section break

There are several items that I think could be incorporated:

The international agreements made during the war pre-dated the mandates system. They were concerned mainly with access to ports of entry, tariffs, and trade, not forms of government.
The article implies that 'In European usage up to World War I, "Palestine" was used informally' In fact, Palestine already was a functioning international condominium on both a de facto and de jure basis throughout the late Ottoman period. The foreign consular and trade concessions and the religious Protectorates were not informal arrangements. They were established by treaty agreements and were usually codified by one or more statutes or decrees. I cited the examples of a US treaty of amity, a statute, and a jurisdictional map for Palestine from the year 1910.
The Treaty of Sevres, the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, and even the UN partition Plan addressed the issue of concessions. They also called for commissions or trusteeship councils to sort out the unsettled claims of the various religious Protectorates.
The Treaty of Lausanne included a multinational 'Protocol relating to certain Concessions granted in the Ottoman Empire and Declaration, signed at Lausanne, July 24, 1923. I believe that was used as a basis to challenge the Rutenberg Concessions before the Permanent Court of Justice in the Mavrommatis Case.
The article only mentions the fact that the French ran Feisal out of Damascus, but not the fact that a Pan-Syrian Congress, including Palestinian delegates, had proclaimed Syria an independent state with Fiesal as King. see for example: FEISAL DISTURBING FACTOR, New York Times, 12 March 1920
Delegations of Syrian and Palestinian notables continued to demand independence from the League of Nations, see for example: SYRIANS PRESENT GRIEVANCES TO LEAGUE, New York Times
According to the minutes of the meetings of The Council of Heads of Delegations, from August 29 to November 5, 1919, an 'Aide-Me'moire in Regard to the Occupation of Syria, Palestine and Mesopotamia Pending the Decision in Regard to Mandates' was handed from Lloyd George to Georges Clemenceau and placed before the Peace Conference. It set the boundaries for Palestine. The border Commission only handled the task of delineating and demarcation. It stipulated that:
'1. Steps will be taken immediately to prepare for the evacuation by the British Army of Syria and Cilicia including the Taurus tunnel. 2. Notice is given both to the French Government and to the Emir Feisal of our intentions to commence the evacuation of Syria and Cilicia on November 1, 1919'... ...6. The territories occupied by British troops will then be Palestine, defined in accordance with its ancient boundaries of Dan to Beersheba.''text of the Aide-Me'moire'
In Lloyd George's view Sidon, Mt. Nebo, Moab, the Negev, and Edom were all locations outside the ancient boundaries.
In November of 1919, Herbert Samuel hadn't even been appointed yet. There had never been a British military occupation of Transjordan either, despite the fact that Allenby had attempted two unsuccessful campaigns there during the war. Samuel did manage to dispatch three advisors there when he finally met the shaykhs and other local notables at al-Salt, during August of 1920. But that didn't provide the legal basis for him to start administering it as a part of Palestine. That only came after the Cairo Conference. see: The Making of Jordan, Yoav Alon and Joab B. Eilon, I.B.Tauris, 2007, ISBN 1845111389, Chapter 1, Transjordan On The Eve Of Abdullah's Arrival.
Lord Balfour had suggested 'Palestine should be extended into the lands lying east of the Jordan. It should not, however, be allowed to include the Hedjaz Railway, which is too distinctly bound up with exclusively Arab Interests.' At the Peace Conference, the Zionists had only requested the territory west of the Hejaz railway.'The Council of Ten: minutes of meetings February 15 to June 17, 1919, page 161-162 The railway itself had been constructed with public donations taken up throughout the Islamic World. It was a waqf, and had been administered as part of a charitable trust. harlan (talk) 21:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi,

This is a sensitive article and you want to add numerous points.

I suggest you proceed to one of the here above mentionned modifications (with the source !) and then you give some time to people to discuss this here. Please, not too much at a time.

Good work. :-) Ceedjee (talk) 13:29, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course, there's no hurry. I plan to wait until next week and work in small installments. harlan (talk) 02:56, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Where are images of real life childre etc?

This site is full of maps and old people. Are there no children left in Palestine? No schools? Please upload an image we could use on other Wikepedia languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Llywelyn2000 (talk • contribs) 09:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I take it, then, that there are no photographs of real children in real situations smiling real smiles left? Makes it difficult for children throughout the world to empathise... Please upload. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 07:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The Image is wrong!

it shows Golan as part of occupied Palestine instead of Syria. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.227.151.135 (talk) 14:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Can create link to information on "Faisal-Clemenceau accords"

The "Faisal-Clemenceau accords" is mentioned on this page, and there's a small amount of information reagrding the accords at: http://www.swisscorner.com/wiki.php?title=1920_Palestine_riots

Can create a link to this page. Hat4rack (talk) 18:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)hat4rackHat4rack (talk) 18:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know of an English translation. The original is in the archives of the Quai d'Orsay. On 6 January 1920 Prince Faisal initialed an agreement with the lame duck French Prime Minister Clemenceau. The French government once again acknowledged 'the right of the Syrians to unite to govern themselves as an independent nation'. Clemenceau and his party had just lost the November 1919 elections, and he was about to be replaced by a new regime headed by Alexandre Millerand. see Britain, the Hashemites and Arab Rule, 1920-1925, by Timothy J. Paris, Routledge, 2003, ISBN 0714654515, Page 69. harlan (talk) 08:27, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Greater Israel

There seems to be a problem with this terminology because I don't believe 'Greater Israel' is clear enough on it's own since it doesn't even exist in Hebrew and seems to be used by some to refer to the biblical promise and by others to Israel HaShlema. Perhaps we should clarify with a bit of source searching (talk page discussion) if the term is actually used for 'Palestine' or if it is used for something else (far larger). After this is clarified, if it is determined that we should add the term, then an article explanation that this term is quite ambiguous should probably be added it would be bad to suggest that "from the Nile to the Euphrates" is a term "used to refer to all or part of this [Palestine] area" since it is clearly not. p.s. What do you think of other nicknames of the place such as "Eretz Tsion"? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 14:04, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Paleolithic and Neolithic periods (1 mya–5000 BCE)

As currently written, the phrasing used in the first paragraph of this section doesn't seem to accurately reflect the sources that the information is drawn from; specifically references #31 and #33. While the initial set of dates given is quite correct, there is a certain lack of clarity in the way the findings are presented. It now reads:

Human remains found at El-'Ubeidiya, 2 miles (3 km) south of Lake Tiberias date back as early as 500,000 years ago.[30][31] The discovery of the Palestine Man in the Zuttiyeh Cave in Wadi Al-Amud near Safad in 1925 provided some clues to human development in the area.[30][32][33]

I would like to propose the following change, with the approval and assistance of regular contributors (changes in bold type for easy comparison):

Some prehistoric tools and human bone fragments found at El-'Ubeidiya, 2 miles (3 km) south of Lake Tiberias date back as early as 500,000 years ago,[30][31] and ritual burial sites with complete human remains go back 50,000 to 70,000 years.[33] The discovery of the Palestine Man in the Zuttiyeh Cave in Wadi Al-Amud near Safad in 1925 provided some clues to human development in the area.[30][32][33]

It's my hope that the rewording and small addition will make the chronology a bit more clear. I'm also open to other suggestions of course, and since the article is locked, will need some help from a regular to make any changes that are agreeable. Thanks for your consideration! 67.173.185.224 (talk) 17:28, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I had made this suggestion many weeks ago when I wasn't logged in. Since no one has objected in the past 3 months, I went ahead and made the change. Doc Tropics 01:19, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

references to the bible

ok - first of all i do not wish to edit any of this page, nor is my intention to cause argument of a political kind. If you feel you will read this without being able to put religion aside, then please do not read anymore of my post

i am also neutral in the argument of ownership of these lands around this area, but if questioned would blame my own european ancestors for causing much of the disagreement which reigns there, going as far back as the crusades and the occupations of Cyprus and Malta right up until the 1920's and 30's

In archeology and history in general we have primary secondary and tertiary evidences.

it has been shown, for example, the the walls of "Jericho" were eroded over many hundreds of year after the city was abandoned and that people settled there some 300-400 years after abandonment. This was proven by archaeological research. we also have primary evidence from Kenyon, Garstang and Wood of various collapses and re buildings, settlement and desertion of the site which provide this primary evidence in the form of bones, pottery, seeds, tablets (stone etc) buildings and burning evidence, however people must separate conclusions (opinions such as was it fire earthquakes or other reasons) drawn from these factual evidences. http://www.archaeology.org/online/reviews/kenyon/ http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/tsg/index.htm http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/06/The-Walls-of-Jericho.aspx here many of the articles contain photos and sketches which may be enlightening.

The Bible for one thing is neither Palestinian nor Jewish and so cannot be relied upon to paint an accurate Palestinian or Jewish history. Secondly it is not possible to rely upon quotes from the bible as accurate historical record. Many of the writings were a considerable time after events and were not written by people who were there at the time, making them tertiary evidence.

i am not raising these points for any reason other than to point out that wikipedia is an encyclopedic reference source, and should contain non-fictional work as the basis of its actions.

I understand that people are entitled to their beliefs but fact and belief must remain separate when they do not agree and it is dangerous to confuse the two things

I applaud the actions of the writers of this page for their continued scholarly work, devoid of fiction and supported by fact. It is impressive that this page reaches such a high state of truths seperating fiction from archaeological evidence.

Chaosdruid (talk) 16:59, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

References to the riots in 1921,1929 and 1936-1939

Great article, thanks! I'm missing reference to Jaffa_Riots, Hebron_Massacre and 1936–1939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine.

Daonb (talk) 08:14, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

The Balfour Declaration

As far as I can tell, the original letter from Lord Balfour made no mention of a "Promise", "Exchange for Financial Support" or "War against Ottomans and Germans" Shaldonbridge (talk) 17:21, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

One cite added (http://books.google.com/books?id=6T_Ff6Ra57sC&pg=PA9). MeteorMaker (talk) 19:12, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

It says in the article: "... British foreign minister Arthur Balfour issued the controversial Balfour Declaration of 1917, which promised to establish a Jewish state in Palestine". The Balfour Declaration of 1917 refers to a "national home for the Jewish people", not to a Jewish state, and subsequent official statements by the British government further clarify that a "Jewish state" was not formally intended.--128.139.104.49 (talk) 08:37, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

"Palestine Man" does not exist, unreliable sources

"The discovery of the Palestine Man in the Zuttiyeh Cave in Wadi Al-Amud near Safad in 1925 provided some clues to human development in the area." The archeologist Turville was responsible for the findings he named "galilee man" in 1925 in the Zuttiyeh Cave. He never published in his papers or coined the term "palestine man". The footnotes are links to either dead sites or too vague to be verified. Please either insert a reliable source for this term or remove it. Eframgoldberg (talk) 09:12, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Sham?

People around here usually refer to that region as Bilad al-Sham, not greater Syria..Infact I've never heard that name around here. I think we should add the name Bilad al-Sham or Al Sham or Sham to the names list. radiant guy (talk) 05:44, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Readability

considering the vested interests, this page retains a degree of integrity that is a credit to all its regular contributors. I wouldn't expect this wikipage to be non-contentious until all the real issues about this piece of land are settled - The sooner the better. Sadly, with such loaded content, it seems that the grammar and readability of the page is suffering. phrases such as 'a name used already much earlier' and 'However, already under British rule and even more after the foundation of Israel, Zionists came to consciously and vehemently reject' give the impression of an amateur essay. Anyone care to consolidate the grammar? 82.24.57.18 (talk) 14:16, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Current Status

Is the information in this edit correct? Goalie1998 (talk) 05:15, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

A note of nationalism

Not meaning to intrude or confuse, but I just noted, based on a quick Ctrl-F, that the word ‘nationalism’ occurs only once in this article. Although not completely conversant on the subject of how that word may relate to these contents, I was somewhat surprised to find the sole reference mentioned ‘Samaritan nationalism’; it seemed somehow undue, based on my general knowledge. This is by no means conclusive regarding article content, but I somehow relate various other competing nationalisms with this specific geography.

How this apparent imbalance might best be remedied by consensus is up to more involved editors, but I note on a basic level that media usage of the term abruptly diminished in 1948, with different political usage of new terms, while the geographic limits remained broadly the same. I further note that various pieces that resulted are not now included in the lede and/or in ‘Names and boundaries’; possibly they should be. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 06:46, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Missing text and map definition of Palestine

I have included a relevant missing source in ‘Non-Biblical texts’; this seems to be the place for it. The prose may require some tweaking, but I believe both refs should remain included, since they appear to provide different spins from differing povs. It would be nice to have such a map ([[File:Faisal-Weizmann_map.png]]) available, but there appear to be some discrepancies, which also have been noted here. I guess we will wait. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 08:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Abelson quote

The article quotes an entire passage from an article by one Meir Abelson. Abelson is not a historian of any standing. The quoted article is little more than a political pamphlet that makes no effort to hide its agenda. Even worse, entire passages from the quoted article are lifted from W. B. Ziff, The Rape of Palestine, 1938, without citing the source. A quote from a plagiarized and politically slanted text by an unknown "researcher" compromises the quality of this article. I'm sure a better source can be found to reflect Kaiser Wilhelm's impressions, if indeed it is necessary. I would like to remove this quote, if nobody objects.--128.139.104.49 (talk) 20:21, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree and note that Ziff's book was a thinly veiled propaganda tract. The deteriorated condition of the Ancient Roman aqueduct, for example, is blamed only on the current residents (Palestinian Arabs), as opposed to the longer-term Ottoman rulers, who collected taxes but apparently failed to provide funds for upkeep; this latter seems more likely and more neutral. A similar tract was produced later by Lowdermilk to optimistically address the absorptive capacity of the land and resources for the planned in-gathering. The limits of this capacity were questioned in the 1939 White Paper, so Zionism worked to address this perception. Although Mr. Lowdermilk was a recognized and respected professional in this general technical field, both he and his wife were also zealous (American Christian) Zionists, who tended to build up one side and tear down the other. Lest some see this as OR, please check this; it says "This article examines Lowdermilk's Zionism and the impact that his proposals had on the propaganda and political battle over Palestine in Britain and the United States in these crucial years." Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 02:58, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

PALESTINE (Wikipedia's Main Article)

Dear Wikipedia,

Regarding Wikipedia's main article entitled "Palestine" - a glaring inaccuracy is contained within the text which sub-heads the article's first arial (NASA) map of the region...! Viz: Among the clockwise list of surrounding countries claimed to border Palestine - (the map's central focus) - not only is Iran incorrectly include but Iraq is omitted...!! Whereas, in fact, the Iranian border, at its closest point, lies some 2-300 statute miles due East (of Palestine) and thus is nowhere in frame...!!!

PASTED BELOW FROM YOUR ORIGINAL: [This Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS) image from the Terra satellite shows the Mediterranean Sea (left) and portions of the Middle East. Countries pictured are (clockwise from top right) Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt (across the Gulf of Aqaba), Israel, the disputed West Bank Territory, and Lebanon.]

That apart, however - please accept my sincere congratulations on your superb coverage (as usual...!) in every other particular.

Best regards

John Jay (90.202.153.242 (talk) 17:27, 8 March 2009 (UTC))

Hello,

I can only assume it was a typo. I've fixed the error, thank you.

okedem (talk) 06:18, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Kat73's rewrite of the lead.

Kat73, I appreciate where you are comming from and I think I agree with the general idea of putting Palestinian information first in a Palestinian-cetric article - good point. The rewrite of the lead was a little too jumbled for me. you got into mixing up geographical and political motivations and it got a little too incongruous. If you want to try, go ahead but try to keep all the regional references in one paragraph and all the political ones in the second paragraph, that will help anyone reading keep the two subjects separate in their head. Padillah (talk) 13:27, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Please learn how to spell properly and use capital letters, but I think you may of been in a hurry which is by all means acceptable. I doubt you appreciate where I am coming (which is not spelled as comming, but you may be in a common rush) from. My edits are not jumbled up and were in certain areas - simple. But that is your opinion and I respect that and will keep it in mind when I am editing. Thank you so much for stating your opinion. Palestine is a region therefore should be reffered to as a region in the article's lead, I will keep the regional references and political references apart which may seperate the two subjects in the reader's head. Thank you. Kat73 13:37, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

That lead has a few years of consensual work in it, which you ignore. Secondly, the text you changed refers to Palestine as a 'name which has been used'. This is there because Palestine has had several distinct denotations over time. By writing in substitution, 'Palestine is a region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River,' you are creating confusionand asserting, grammatically, a falsehood. The present tense is used, and yet at present there is no 'Palestine' in that location. There is Israel and the West Bank. Please confer with others before making this kind of confusing edit.Nishidani (talk) 13:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Not to put too fine a point on it it's spelled "referred" and "separate" so, for those of you keeping score (Kat73 at least), that's 2-1. But I digress (and fully admit "coming" is a problem word for me as is "separate" they just are not spelled right in my opinion). As for your lead, Yes, I can revert it without some mythical approval from an admin. WP states quite unequivocally "if you don't want your contributions edited mercilessly, don't add them". Also, I see no arguments supporting your edits, merely an assertion that you have an opinion and I should keep my opinion in mind when reading yours. Then you proceed to agree with me and keep the region and political state separate. Um, OK I guess. Also, please see Nishidani's comments above and the history of the article when making changes. This article did not reach it's present state on accident and we'd appreciate a little respect for the work we've already put in. Padillah (talk) 13:53, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

This article is very biased towards Israel

Regarding the ancient history of Palestine: this article focus on the existence of the Jews civilization in Palestine as thought the civilization in Palestine has started from the Jews existence in Palestine. the article misses the fact that most of the Palestinian cities like Jerusalem, Jaffa and acre were built before the Jews migration to Palestine which indicates great civilization at that place before the arrival of Jews. The article missed that the Jews existence in the ancient history as an entity was not more than 400 years (the united kingdom of Israel and then its split into two kingdoms). On top of that, during the time of two Jews kingdoms in Palestine, Jews people co-existed with the Palestinians who were living in the coastal area during the period of the existence of judases as entity in Palestine. Regarding the so-called Arab migration: the article clearly adopt the Israeli point of view which claims that the land of Palestine was empty or uncivilized before the migration of European Jews to Palestine during the first half of the twenty century. The claim that Palestine was empty and Arab migrated to Palestine migrated due to the Jews and British reforms to the land is something indicates the bankruptcy of those who promote the Zionist though because of the following reasons: 1-why the land of Palestine was empty while the neighboring Arab countries were populated? This is not logical because of the fact that Palestine is located in a very important geographical area links the three continents: Asia, Europe and Africa. Palestine also is a holly place for the Arab Muslim and Christians so claim about the emptiness of Palestine is rejected logically. On top of that, Palestine has very important water resources which make it a very livable place. Therefore, the claim that Palestine which has all the previous characteristics was empty and the neighboring Arab territories were populated despite they have less livable characteristics, cannot be accepted from any logical perspective. 2-palestine is a very small place which has many cities and more than 700 villages. Examples for the cities: Jerusalem, Jaffa, acre, Gaza, Haifa, Bethlehem, Hebron, Jenin, Nablus...etc. it is worth mentioning here that those cities were founded thousands years ago and their existence proves that the civilization in Palestine never stopped. We see many ancient places in the world but many of the old cities are dead, but in case of Palestine, cities stood for thousands of years. Needless to mention that this big amount of villages indicates rich continuous civilization in this place. 3-the historical places can be a judge for those who are skeptics about what I have mentioned above. Examples for that: 1-the Arabic neighbor in Jaffa still exist and it is aged for hundreds of years. 2-the old town of Jerusalem. 3-the old town of Nablus which has buildings aged more than 400 years. 4-Acre with its wall which has another strong evidence about the rich civilization of Palestine. Napoleon with his big troops failed to invade acre after a siege aged for more than two months. 5-in all Palestinian city and villages there are many old buildings which ridicules the claim that the land was empty. 6-the news Israeli historians refute the ‘’empty land’’ claim like Illan Pappe. See reliable sources on this issue: 1-the ethnic cleansing for Palestine-Illan Pappe. 2-the roots for the Palestinian problem-the united nation web site. http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0!OpenDocument 3- http://www.palestineremembered.com/

Regarding the Jews migration: It is very strange that there is no mentioning here about the Jews migration to Palestine which took place during the first half of the twenty century. This very important information because it affected the history of this land and it is considered to be the causes for what is known nowadays as Israeli-Palestinian problem. As it is known and even documented in Wikipedia in different locations that the situation in Palestine reached a critical point because of the Jews migration and lead to clashed with the Palestinian people.

The ethnic cleansing of Palestine: One of the most tragedy issue in the Palestinian history is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Israel and leveling more than 500 Palestinian villages by Israel. tt —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arqoub imp (talk • contribs) 05:42, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The article is very long, and your comment is very long. To make your comments easier to understand and to comment on, please try to write in specific points, using quotes from the article.

I don't get the impression that the article ignores the issues you mention, and I think you're misrepresenting what it actually says. The article discusses "The question of late Arab immigration to Palestine" from multiple viewpoints. The article never says the land was "empty", but quotes several sources saying it was "mostly empty" - the population figures seem to support that assertion (such as 350,000 inhabitants in 1850). Even Jerusalem had only about 15,000 inhabitants in 1844, and by 1896 had a Jewish majority (28k out of 45k inhabitants). There were several small communities, but the land was mostly empty. Remember that many regions that are now inhabited were swamps back then, like most of the Sharon region, which was drained and rid of malaria by the Jewish immigrants. Holiness is irrelevant. Perhaps many Christians and Muslims came to visit Palestine, but then returned to their homes, faraway. When the large Jewish immigration began in the late 19th century, even Arab leaders said they welcome it, and hope the Jews would bring progress and wealth to the region.

The population alongside the Jewish kingdom was not "Palestinian", but Philistines, a people which seem to have no relation to current day Arab inhabitants of the region.

I actually find a detailed discussion of Palestine during the years, discussing the archaeological finds from many periods (example: "Archaeological finds from the early Canaanite era have been found at Tel Megiddo, Jericho, Tel al-Far'a (Gaza), Bisan, and Ai (Deir Dibwan/Ramallah District), Tel an Nasbe (al-Bireh) and Jib (Jerusalem)"). Please read the article more carefully.

The Jewish immigration is discussed, with long passages devoted to the Mandate, Balfour declaration, etc. okedem (talk) 06:55, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

In a region like Palestine, 350,000 people in 1850 probably isn't "empty." At world average population growth rates (a rate the Middle East likely exceeded since), that region would have 1.86 million. It just had less people. That's my 2 cents, demographics-wise; I'm not so interested in which "side" has a valid claim to nation-statehood, or whether the article is biased (I find it not to be, particularly).69.94.192.147 (talk) 23:07, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

concerning the so-called arab migration and jews migration to palestine

please do not say that jews migration was welcommed by palestinians. how come that people welcome others who want to steal thier lands(at least according to balfour declaration). please when you say the jews migration was welcome you seems that you are misinformed. you forgot that many rights during 1919-1947 against the zionist migration to palestine. it is doccumented by the israeli historians illan pappe, bony morrie, and the founders of 'israel' refered to the riots at that time and to their conflicts with the people of palestine. you maybe need to check the united of league at that time which sent 2 messengers to the area to investigate the clashes which happened between palestinains and the zionist immigtants. read about this on the official web site of the united nation and the new israeli new historians. i advice you also to read the memory book for david ben gorion.

you said it by yourself that jews were welcomed by arabs which means an acknowledgement that the land of palestine was populated. yes of course you gave figuires but these figures are false and the official british figures which colonized palestine at that time refute these sources. then how can you explain the historical places in palestine which are aged for more than hundred years and still alive. how can you explain acre siege?

of course the people who were living in palestine before the jews migration thousends years ago are linked the current palestinian people....execuse m: where those people go? did they vanish? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arqoub imp (talk • contribs) 07:51, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

You obviously read nothing of what I said. You're misquoting me, and completely ignoring the article and my words. This discussion is over. okedem (talk) 08:05, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Well you are both talking past one another. Though I have to agree with Arqoub on one major issue: There is an WP:UNDUE focus on Arab migration into Palestine as though that was the major population movement into the area in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It is a matter of historical fact that the vast majority of Palestine's population prior to the 20th century was majority Arab (over 90%) and that Zionist immigration into Palestine is major reason for its present non-existence/subsumption into Israel. So perhaps we could work on finding reliable sources discussing population movements into Palestine to use for the Demographics section and work on cutting down the Joan Peters/Mark Twain like perspectives, which are minority, if not WP:FRINGE views, that enjoy little credence among modern scholars on the subject. Tiamut^talk 08:30, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Tiamut, I addressed Arqoub imp's claims directly and accurately. He ignored me, and mis-represented the article and my words. (for instance - I never said "jews were welcomed by arabs", but that their arrival was welcomed by Arab leaders, which is well known. I never said the land was empty, nor does the article, but explained that it was mostly empty, and backed it up with the numbers, which he simply brushed off.) Have the decency to acknowledge that, regardless of our past arguments.

Regarding Jewish and Arab immigration - there is room for more discussion of Jewish immigration, but I don't think the issue of Arab immigration is given too much space. It's a main issue when discussing the region, and space is given to several viewpoints. Some discussion of Jewish immigration and the vast changes it brought about would be a good idea, given it is written in NPOV manner, and sticks to the facts, not false hyperbole ("Jews came a stole Arab lands"). okedem (talk) 08:41, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The 'empty land' thesis is specifically Zionist propaganda, because it is a point constantly raised exclusively of some ostensibly peculiar condition, warranting being 'filled up' by Jewish immigration, as if the land were just begging for occupation. All countries in the 19th century, even China, were 'empty' in terms of demographic analysis, since all countries in the world have tripled and quadrupled their populations from the early nineteenth to the late twentieth century. America was empty, Italy was empty, South America was empty, Russia and China were 'empty', for the simple reason that the industrialization of agriculture began to transform the productive capacity of land. Palestine was no more 'empty' than any other country. Its population reflected its capacity for harvest and food yield at that time. Indeed, even a grazing knowledge of the British and Mandatory literature on Palestine from the 1920s onwards shows a constant awareness that the obligation to observe the Balfour Declaration's intent had to be balanced against the internal capacity to sustain new 'mouths', otherwise the British government would have to make huge expenditure outlays to import food. This was critical by the early 1930s. Again, there was a net drop in Palestinian population in WW1 because large numbers of Palestinians had to leave the country for Syria, Jordan and elsewhere because of economic difficulties. Anything from Joan Peters trashbook is to be regarded with suspicion. It is not an RS. There are quite a few academic works that have endeavoured to analyze the theory she promoted, some are for it, others against it. Use those by all means. But whatever the case, trying to conflate the agelong phenomenon of cross-border infraregional, and often seasonal effluxes and influxes of local Arabs with the programmatic immigration of non-Arabic, and not Hebrew speaking people from Byelorussia, Ukraine, the Pale of Settlement is an absurdity. The former was a natural element in the eco-economic dynamics of the region (just as with US demographic shifts), the latter was a political programme of colonization by a government (England) and an international body (Zionism).Nishidani (talk) 08:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there's an attempt to equate them. The issue of Arab immigration is often brought up in these discussions, one side claiming there was significant immigration, the other claiming there was little if any. It's a notable discussion, and that's why I believe it deserves a comprehensive discussion here. The section discusses the "question of late Arab immigration", it doesn't say there was such immigration. The very first paragraph ends with a source saying there was not significant immigration.

Again, neither the article, nor I, say the land was "empty". Vast areas of it were not populated, and those that were held small populations. This was a result of harsh conditions in some areas (swamps, deserts), and the limited capacity of others (low technological level agriculture, etc.). To Western eyes, especially European, the land would appear mostly empty, compared with Germany, for instance. The traveler's impressions section deals with this well, I think. okedem (talk) 09:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The article suffers from a huge WP:Undue weight problem, being obese, for an area with a 4000 year history with a massive section on the demographics of 1850 onwards, travellers impressions singularly on this aspect, which interested only Zionist accounts. 90% of this reflects a Zionist polemical attempt to showcase the 'empty land' thesis as a prelude to Zionism, and a large part of that material is either replicated or should be relocated to the relevant wiki pages. As to travellers' impressions, well from the 17th to the 19th century travellers' impressions deal frequently with epidemics, malaria, banditry, etc. Do we have to create a section on this as well? Of course not. One could supplement with a huge section on travellers noting other things than the difficulties of the terrain, or the fascination of its monuments, and its customs. Nothing. Not useful for conjuring up the impression that everybody was just waiting for Zionism to work its notable, some might say, notorious, miracle. For the story of how the land is filled, from its former emptiness, see my page, last edit and multiply that tens of thousands of times.Nishidani (talk) 09:30, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Nishidani. These are the points I was trying to get across. The article is highly unbalanced and subtly (or not so much) pushes the thesis of an "empty land" by giving too much space to this discussion. I think the question of Late Arab immigration to Palestine should be covered in detail in its own article (or alternatively in an article on the Demographics of Palestine, and we should have a brief summary here. Note that Demographics of Palestine is currently a redirect to Demographics of the Palestinian territories. It should not be. This article needs to be cut down, have much of demographic info moved to its own standalone page and to have things added that are currently not discussed in sufficient detail or at all.Tiamut^talk 09:37, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Demographics of Palestine can take everything here, inclusive of a subsection on Late Arab immigration into Palestine. Personally, this aspect, despite Peters' hackwork, about immigration trends has always interested me, and I find no objection to the appropriate page, linked here, expanding on it, following the academic literature wherever it leads. One does not google a page like 'Palestine' to be dragged into large demographic analyses and charts on immigration flows for a period covering 1/50th of its known history. The abuse is flagrant.Nishidani (talk) 09:59, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

If you guys want to summarize the info here and moved the bulk into sub-articles - you have my blessing. okedem (talk) 10:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

That is a very decent and sensible suggestion, but I think you should not, as a longterm editor, exclude yourself from that possibility. Any suggestions you might have to that effect would be appreciated. It's not a matter of sub articles, but the appropriate existing article on the demographics of Palestine.Nishidani (talk) 10:06, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Demographics of Palestine is, formally, a sub-article of the demographics section of Palestine. Unfortunately, right now that article is nothing but a redirect to the Demographics of the Palestinian territories, dealing only with today's figures.

Anyway, I'm not excluding myself on principle, I just don't really have the time to handle this. Actual real-life issues seem to take up more of my time as of late. I'll try to assist if possible. okedem (talk) 10:41, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I've just made a rough check, and the demographic page, downloaded comes out in Microsoft word as 10 pages, with the whole text tipping 34 pages. Roughly 30% of text is therefore on the demographics, immigration, travellers impressions, and genetics of 19th-20th Palestine, a period representing I century out of some 3-400 thousand. This is massive Undue weight. I suggest that the subsidiary pages take all of the material, and that someone make a full two paragraph synthesis of the four sections (demographics, traveller impressions, immigration, genetics) from there. Certainly the charts have no place here. I too have no time for this and would prefer that those who did that work shift and synthesize.Nishidani (talk) 18:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The evident bias of this article is giving much weights to the Zionist claims. Yes, the issue of Jews migration was discussed but it is not covered well with small space. On the other hand, the so-called Arab migration section occupies really large space. Another thing, the claim that the Arab migration section considers two point of view is false. 80% of this section is supportive to the Zionist claim which says that this land was empty, or almost empty. It is cannot be at any case objectivity by giving weights to unreliable sources and ignoring more reliable and official sources and facts. Benny Morris and Illan Pappe refuted the claims about ‘significant Arab migration’ to Palestine. The official British studies refuted that as well. Needless to mention the Arab and European historians. The logic even reject this: how is it possible that more than 900 villages and more than 20 cities in a small place like Palestine can be built within short period of time!!!! What okedem says about ‘’empty’’ and ‘’mostly empty’’ is nothing more than an informational bankrupt! Mostly empty or empty is the same!!! Many of The people who were forced to leave Palestine are still alive and they can tell!! If Palestine was empty then how come Palestine was the place where the crusades and napoleons armies were defeated! The historians and the British officials documented all the destroyed villages by the Israeli under militia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arqoub imp (talk • contribs) 21:56, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, I think Okedem has actually acknowledged a problem with Undue weight, and agreed with others. No point in developing a thread on this. What is required is work on how to shift this to the appropriate page, and give a synthesis. One should move on when a rough consensus of principle has been reached.Nishidani (talk) 07:58, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

1948 war

I have re-written this section that was not accurate or that was pov. Could someone check the spelling and grammar ? Thanks. Ceedjee (talk) 11:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Thx !

I still haven't found the right to describe the "Arab intervention" and there is no good solution with the famous 4/5/7 arab armies/expeditionnary forces that attacked/invaded Palestine/Israel...

I wonder if just describing was not better :

On May 15, Syria attacked Israel at Samakh (and took it) and on 20 May Degania (fails).
On May 15, Iraq attacked Gesher (Israel) and troops will stay there up to May 22
On May 22, Egyptian forces attack Ramat Rachel. They had to cross Israeli Negev to be there.

All this can be summarized by "Syrian, Iraqi and Egyptian expeditionnary forces invaded Israel"

Ceedjee (talk) 17:54, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

As I think we are well-aware of, the old model is so simplistic, it doesn't hold up, yet no new model based on the best research has, to my knowledge, come up with a snapshot of which forces were precisely where for all sides on the 15th. You are absolutely correct on Syrias and Iraqi forces (though the Iraqi units attacking one small kibbutz, only to be repelled by it and forced to retreat back and reenter through the Allenby bridge into the West Bank where they did most of their fighting, mustn't have been much of an expeditionary force. I think the Egyptian attack dated to 22 is wrong. I believe the Egyptian airforce bombed Tel Aviv on the 15th., and that constitutes indeed an attack on Israel. But my major question is, friend, this. Were all Israeli regular and irregular units within the partition borders designating Israel at midnight 14/15th. My information is that they were not. If Israeli troops were, at the moment of the expiry of the mandate, at midnight, in the area designated as the future Arab Palestinian entity, then this constitutes an expeditionary force outside of the duly constituted boundaries of the partition plan when that came into effect. Please note that the Jordanian forces, completed their withdrawal from the future 'West Bank' by retreating over the Jordan on the 13th of May, precisely in order to not be in Palestine as it technically transformed itself into Israel/non-Israel. This technical point is crucial, for it changes the way we interpret the Iraqi, Syrian and Egyptian moves in, on the same day. ? Nishidani (talk) 18:03, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi,

If I remember well, several companies (11 ?) of the Arab Legion failed to leave Palestine for "technical reaons". Among them, one at Latrun (no chance !), one at Hebron and one at Ramallah.
you are right for the bombing of Tel-Aviv by Egyptians. Forgot this.
in term of Israeli 'invasion', Operation Nachshon and Operation Maccabee were military operations in the area dedicated to the Arab state (but along the Tel-Aviv - Jerusalem road) but more significatively, on 13 May, Operation Ben'Ami was launched north of Haifa, in "Arab territories" too and towards Lebanon border.

But I am not sure to understand your point... Do you mean that if it is true that "Syrian, Iraqi and Egyptian expeditionnary forces invaded Israel", Israel also invaded the Arab state and that should be mentionned ?

Ceedjee (talk) 18:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

One doesn't write the truth in these articles, as we agree. One writes what available sources of quality tell us. I haven't personally come across RS that say explicitly what, from following the various histories by maps, seems to be obvious. Namely, that at midnight 14/15 May, as the UN partition came unilaterally into force with Israel's declaration of its state, Israeli troops in several areas lay outside that state's boundaries, engaged in military operations which, from that moment on, were in the Arab-designated sectors. If this is so, then Israel was militarily active on non-Israeli soil before and, when Syria, Egypt and Iraqi forces entered, sectors that de jure were in legally constituted Israel (even if of course, as in my view, the whole partition plan was illegal). It was de facto simultaneous invasion by both sides. This is my personal view, but can't be mentioned here, since it would violate WP:NOR. But, as far as I have managed to understand with poor maps, while reading Morris and other accounts, this is what in fact occurred. If so, then the whole 3/4/5/7 armies invaded 'Israel' story from 1948 onwards is a result of extremely slipshod conceptualization of a far more confusing state of affairs.Nishidani (talk) 20:07, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

To be more concrete, answering your remark about units of the Arab Legion not leaving.

Yes, Abdullah Tell's units which attacked the 4 Etzion bloc villages, remained behind, in that sector of the Arab designated sector, more or less by disobeyed Glubb. Note what Benny Morris writes of this:

'During the months before May 15, Arab civilian and British and Legion military traffic was periodically fired upon along the Hebron-Jerusalem road. The fire came from Haganah militiamen stationed in the Etzion Block kibbutzim, four settlements - Kfar Etzion, Revadim, Massu'ot Yitzhak and 'Ein Tzurim - planted during the 1930s side by side just west of the road linking Hebron and Bethlehem. The Un partition plan of 1947 had allocated the area to the Palestinian Arab state but the Haganah command had decided not to evacuate the settlements, despite their vulnerability, both as a matter of principle and precisely because they were 'a sharp thorn stuck in the heart of a purely Arab area', as Legion officer Abdullah Tall put it' and a potential obstruction along a main Arab line of communication.'B Morris, The Road to Jerusalem, p.135

I.e., Israel's independence was declared while the Haganah maintained units of its forces outside the boundaries of the UN partition plan's designated area for Israel, deep inside the areas designated, as here, for an Arab state. So, by not, as the Arab Legion did (with this exception, that is a complex story in its own right), withdrawing behind the partition lines, Israel was, at the moment of its declared independence, technically moving parts of its army beyond its own legal frontiers, just as Syria, Egypt and Iraq, several hours later, mobilized their forces against Israeli territory. In this sense, the unilateral invasion narrative is a fiction. Most reliable sources support it. Technically, in law, the three expeditionary forces can be interpreted as counterattacking Israel because Israel was at midnight responsible for having its forces actively engaged over the designated Arab sector. This is not a moral issue, but one of conceptual clarity shorn of any parti pris. In a sense it was, as Zeev Maoz allows even the 1948 war might justly be interpreted to be, a war of choice, like all of Israel's wars, except 1973 (which however was a logical consequence of Golda Meir's refusal to reply to Sadat's peace overture in 1971). Nishidani (talk) 20:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

As the Arab leaders rejected the partition plan, one questions the validity of Arab State - was there any relevance to the borders of the Arab State, if the Arab leaders decided not to create one, at least according to the UN plan?

I won't argue that technical point any further, as it's beyond my knowledge, but I do want to comment on the "war of choice" idea - the Arab leaders rejected the plan, and said they would not allow the Jewish state to come into being. Given that the allocated borders were not defensible in such a war (or at least that was the view of Jewish leaders), placing forces in "Arab State" regions might have been necessary militarily. The UN plan saw planned for two states living peacefully with one another, and gave little thought to the military side of the borders they allocated. The defense needs of the new Jewish state, now (after the plan was rejected by Arabs) were different than the peaceful scenario, creating a need for more territory and easier borders. I don't think the claim of "choice" is valid here. If you understand your allocated borders as impossible to defend in this war, or in the near future, your only choice is to try and change them. okedem (talk) 11:57, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. The problem is that we don't have to discuss the legitimicy (or not) the actions of any of the party. We just have to report what is said about that. But it is clear it is a complex problem that would deserve a long debate between scholars so that they could indicate us what we have to write in the article...

Given the situation, we can just take note of what they did but we cannot state it was right or not.

If we forget wikipedia a few minutes, we can go forward and if we open an 100% apologetic debate, having empathy for the actor and those who had to take decisions at the time, then everybody was right :

Arabs was right in rejecting the Plan (ordered fully against their will)
Yishuv was right to start for the war (given what they could expect)
Arabs were right to send volunteers to fight in Palestine given the Yishuv was far stronger
Yishuv was right to launch an offensive on all fronts given would the Arab armies intervene, they could not have defended this.
Arabs states were right to intervene given the collapse of the Arab Palestinian population and the massive exodus
etc

Ceedjee (talk) 16:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

There was nothing improper in their rejecting the UN plan. After all Israel has rejected over 90 UN resolutions and deliberations. Arab rejection was quite rational: it was an outside plan to impose, against regional unanimity, a partition, whose legality, as something the UN could impose, was questionable.

Your second point is geostrategic. Both sides, and many in the Un, knew that the partition would probably lead to war. Israel's leaders certainly did. You're correct in your evaluation of Jewish perceptions of strategic rationality. Kfar Etzion and the three other kibbutzim were reinforced by the Haganah, in a sense sacrificed, in order to relieve Arab pressure on Jerusalem. The point is, another party, had a different perception of the same points. Zeev Maoz, in his Defending the Holy Land: A Critical Analysis of Israel’s Security & Foreign Policy, University of Michigan Press, 2006 writes twice (p.34,35) that 'None, with the possible exception of the 1948 War of Independence, were what Israelis call "wars of necessity." They were all wars of choice'. That is a considered judgement by someone who was a director of studies at the IDF's National Defense College, and at the Jaffa Centre for Strategic Studies. I recommend all to read it. As I've always maintained, the best sources for ideas and studies that would be regarded as controversial abroad, often come from Israel's finest and brightest, from the heartland of that state. We should be more attuned to this scholarship. Nishidani (talk) 12:37, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I did not mean to imply there was anything "improper" in their reaction. I was explaining why, given that they did, the discussion of "Jewish/Israeli forces inside the Arab State" is problematic in my view. Anyway, I'm sure we can find neutral phrasings to convey the facts in this matter. okedem (talk) 13:01, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Okedem, I have been unclear. Those remarks were just in reply to a few queries and remarks by Ceedjee. What I, or he, privately think is of course not pertinent to these edits, and I am not pushing for any inclusion of editorial comment, or of matter that would violate WP:NOR here. The point of my exchange is that, it is highly likely in the not too distant future that these things, which are not frequently articulated, if ever, in RS, will in all probability become commonplace some time in the not too distant future. This because the distance from the events allows us to untangle ourselves from events, and see them more neutrally, reconceptualized from a high angle of comprehensive hindsight. Ceedjee has given his version. I copyedited it with a few adjustments. If you think our combined revision of the passage wanting in some respects, or requiring emendation or refinement, go ahead, as is your right, and edit away. No problem.Nishidani (talk) 13:23, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi Nishidani,

I understand your point and (once more) we have indeed reached the limit of wikipedia because we have to fit to what wp:rs sources state (and we cannot "tell the truth" etc).

We cannot add what follows in the article, but what would you think about : "On May 15, Arab states intervened in the fight and sent expeditionnary forces to Palestine to fight the Israelis. The war evolved from an intercommunal war to a regular war."

Ceedjee (talk) 16:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

C'est exactement ce que je pense, mais malheureusement, cette formulation juste manque d'appui dans les 'reliable sources'!Nishidani (talk) 17:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Major Arab sources, themselves, CONCUR with the (supposed, according to a Wikipedian) "self serving" British reports. Were the Arabs "self servingly" portraying THEMSELVES as "backwards," hmmmm?

This WP article says: "The reports of the British Mandatory administration often contained self-serving (prove it. Because without proof, it is total non-NPOV, Original Research (or more like someone's unfounded opinion which assumes you can read the minds of the Brits who were reporting in Palestine), and a Poison the well fallacy of logic to state that the potential for bias had gotten to those Brits.) descriptions and accounts which implied that the British Colonial Office or the European Jewish immigrants were bringing progress to a backward land and people." This needs a ^{[citation needed]}

Historic sources including Arab leaders themselves noted that the technology to increase the population-density of the land was coming from Jewish immigrants from (comparatively wealthy) Europe and not from the Arabs:

Emir Faisal wrote about the food technology he hoped the Jewish immigrants would bring, when he signed a never-enacted 1919 agreement (Paris Peace), hoping to "as quickly as possible to settle Jewish immigrants upon the land through closer settlement and intensive cultivation of the soil" (emphasis added).
The Sherif of Mecca, Hussein ibn 'Ali, forebear of Jordan's current royalty (before Jordan was partitioned from Palestine) wrote: "The resources of the country are still virgin soil and will be developed by the Jewish immigrants." ~Al-Qibla; 23 March, 1918.
Editors of al-Ahram newspaper added: "The Zionists are necessary for the country: The money which they will bring, their knowledge and intelligence, and the industriousness which characterizes them will contribute without doubt to the regeneration of the country." Fellow members of the Decentralization Party, more generally, saw similar benefits of Jewish immigration (according to "A History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (Indiana [University] Series in Arab and Islamic Studies)," pg. 142).

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.155.22.160 (talk) 13:15, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

pna.gov.ps

Since when is this a reliable wiki-source? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 00:20, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

It's a .gov site, so I assume it's reliable when it comes to country statistics and such. Why did you remove it with the comment "bad source"? MeteorMaker (talk) 08:43, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with Jaakobou here. It's in no way a reliable source for that particular data, any more than a .gov.uk website which said the Act of Union was still in effect would be. Governments can be biased too.

It's also wrong to pipe the link to "state of Palestine", as the state is still in a proposed state (pun not intended).

From what I understand, there are not over 100 countries who recognize Palestine, only 94. Regardless of that, the number of countries isn't important enough for the lead of the article (see Israel and Republic of China) but would be fine later on. Stifle (talk) 10:25, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

FInd me a .gov.uk website that says the Act of Union is still in effect, and I will agree that you have a point. ;) If you don't trust a .gov site for country statistics, here are a couple more: [21][22]

The article used to say "around 100 countries", so my mistake in reverting to a version that says "over 100". The number fluctuates up and down, with Hamas' rise to power I believe a couple of states (eg. Canada) withdrew their recognition. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:14, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Stifle, what source says only 94 countries, and from what year? In Fatah and the Politics of Violence, Anat Kurz gives a figure of 117 UN members states granting recognition to the state of Palestine in the wake of the PLO's 1988 declaration. [23] That's in line with the "around 100 countries" figure given by the Palestinian authorities. I also don't really understand your objection to using Palestinian governmental sources for this information - they are the ones who know which states they have diplomatic relations with - and I'm quite sure that if they claimed some country recognized them who didn't, that country would make their position clear quite quickly.

About the piping, State of Palestine is a redirect to Proposals for a Palestinian state and there is ongoing discussion on the talk page regarding the need to change the current title. The State of Palestine is not a proposal, it has been declared and enjoys recognition from well over half the world. The title should reflect the majority world opinion on the issue - not just what Americans and Israelis think.

I don't think there is any reason to move the info about recognition further down. It seems a rather important and little known fact, but I'm willing to hear other people's opinions on the issue before digging in my feet. Strangely, there was no mention of the State of Palestine in the lead before and there is still no mention of how Palestinians view Palestine to be their homeland. Step by step, the article is beginning to make more sense, but it still needs a lot of work. Tiamut^talk 19:24, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

A few notes:

Previous http://www.pna.gov.ps source was of poor value and could not be used. The Anat Kurz source seems, upon a quick inspection, like a reliable one for wikipedia standards.
All due respect to a declaration of intent made a couple decades ago in Tunisia (West Africa), partial recognition of that Palestinian intent is undue for the current structure of the lead section which has no mention of other historical and quite notable events.
The "State of Palestine" does not yet exist and its status is pending. Currently there are two Arab-Palestinian governments governing two land territories and one Israeli state in between them. I've no objection to a note that Palestine is currently subject to proposals of a Palestinian state as well as a desire to sub-plant Israel. A quick mention of this seems relevant for the lead to inform the reader of hoped changes for the region.

Cordially, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 00:00, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Customary international law is reflected in the articles of the Montevideo Convention. Article 1 provides that "The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications:

* (a) a permanent population;

* (b) a defined territory;

* (c) government; and

* (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states."

Article 3 provides that "The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states." Article 6 provides that "The recognition of a state merely signifies that the state which recognizes it accepts the personality of the other with all the rights and duties determined by international law. Recognition is unconditional and irrevocable." The ICJ held the provisional government of Israel legally responsible for reparation for injuries suffered in the service of the United Nations (the Bernadotte case), despite the fact that it was a non-member state with little or no de jure recognition. At that time, many of the UN member states refused to recognize Israel, or only extended it de facto recognition within the proposed boundaries established by the resolution of 29 November 1947.

The establishment of diplomatic relations are a separate, but related legal undertaking. The countries which recognized the State of Palestine in 1988, are still bound by international norms with respect of that undertaking, with the possible exception of those like the members of the former Soviet Union (the rebus sic stantibus clause).

International law permits subjective recognition of provisional states together with the objective existence of a provisional government, like the two provisional councils authorized pursuant to UN GAR 181(II). For example, 31 countries extended de jure recognition to the provisional government of the Algerian Republic (in exile), prior to the achievement of actual independence from France. Most of the world's population, including India and China, legally recognized the State of Palestine a long time ago. P.S. There is no requirement for a unified federal form of government or for a contiguous territory. harlan (talk) 23:48, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

All good and well, but there's currently no 'State of Palestine' and the pipeline wiki-link to the 'proposals' article makes this even more controversial (read: clear cut) than had it linked directly to a 'State of Palestine' article. Being that this article is about the geographical territory and the lead should not focus on partially recognized political structures as it doesn't even focus on fully recognized ones. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:50, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Lets discuss one article at a time. The History, Current Status section, of this article discusses the population (people), the UN-partitioned area and armistice agreements (territory), and the Palestinian National Authority (government). The Forward reports that the Palestinian Authority has been working to expand the number of countries that recognize Palestine as a country, and that the State of Costa Rica has established normal relations with 'The State of Palestine' (capacity to enter into relations). That is a pretty clear cut statement from a WP:V source. The fact that the US delegate to the UN, Dr Jessup, spoke in favor of admitting Israel as a member, on the basis that it satisfied the requirements of article 1 from the Montevideo Convention is also a well attested fact. see for example: Was "Biafra" at Any Time a State in International Law?, David A. Ijalaye, The American Journal of International Law, Vol. 65, No. 3 (Jul., 1971), pp. 551. The US State Department lists the Montevideo Convention as a treaty that is still in force. see Treaties in Force. harlan (talk) 14:30, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Heyo Harlan,

I followed your detailed argument to why you believe that the state exists but, even assuming that it does (and I'm not consenting to this despite your worthy efforts), it is irrelevant for the current structure of the lead of this article. I'm not even sure that the currently used text is not undue (being that there's no mention of other notable issues) but since it seems within the boundaries of good taste I have no major qualms about it. As for the core of your argument, it seems more relevant for the 'Proposals' article, or for removing the redirect and starting a dedicated article.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

The lead mentions the State of Israel, so I went ahead and added the State of Palestine too. Since this is supposed to be a geographical article I think the fact that the America Palestine Committee was a political lobby group supporting Zionism in the U.S.A. is totally out of place in the lead. Unless you want to add the Arab Higher Committee and PLO, then the Zionists, Der Judenstaat, Herzl, The Balfour Declaration Jewish "homeland" (sic), and the bogus claim that UNGA 181 contains the phrase "The Jewish State in Palestine" (which it doesn't) all need to go anywhere but the lead. harlan (talk) 22:24, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Hello Harlan. I wasn't involved in that discussion, but your last claim here is problematic. While the document doesn't have the exact phrasing "The Jewish State in Palestine", the resolution discusses the "Jewish State" at length (and in Palestine, alongside the Arab State), never once using "national home" or any such phrase. I can only assume you're confusing UNGA 181 with the Balfour declaration. okedem (talk) 03:29, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

The intro is NOT the place for lengthy discussions about American Zionist organizations, or a bunch of non-noteworthy, fabricated, or WP:Synth material. harlan (talk) 07:59, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Harlan, Why are you yelling at me? I only pointed out that you were wrong about your last claim. I didn't place any of the material in the lead, and didn't say I wanted it there. Why can't you simply respond to what I actually said? okedem (talk) 08:09, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Untrue claim in section 3.2.1 Travelers' impressions of 19th century Palestine

In section 3.2.1 it is claimed that the Dutch scolar Adriaan Reland visitet Palestine in 1695.

This is false. Reland never visitet Palestine.

The source (196. RELANDI HADRIANI Palaestina ex monumentis veteribus illustrata. Trajecti Batavorum, Guilielmi, 1714., pages 648-649) for this claim does not say anything about a travel by Reland to Palestine.

There exists no facts about such a travel.

The biographies about Reland does not mention any travels by Reland to Palesine.

The english Wikipedia biographic page about Reland claim:

"Although he never ventured beyond the borders of Netherland, he was also acclaimed as a cartographer[4]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriaan_Reland

Regards

Wikiexaminer

--Wikiexaminer (talk) 17:50, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Untrue claim about ADRIAAN RELAND in section 3.2.1 Travelers' impressions of 19th century Palestine

In section 3.2.1 it is claimed that the Dutch scolar Adriaan Reland visitet Palestine in 1695.

This is false. Reland never visitet Palestine.

The source (196. RELANDI HADRIANI Palaestina ex monumentis veteribus illustrata. Trajecti Batavorum, Guilielmi, 1714., pages 648-649) for this claim does not say anything about a travel by Reland to Palestine.

There exists no facts about such a travel.

The biographies about Reland does not mention any travels by Reland to Palesine.

The english Wikipedia biographic page about Reland claim:

"Although he never ventured beyond the borders of Netherland, he was also acclaimed as a cartographer[4]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriaan_Reland

Regards

Wikiexaminer --Wikiexaminer (talk) 18:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

If you think the statement is mistaken, you can simply amend it yourself, citing a reliable source. There is no need to accuse several editors of falsehood and untruth. RolandR (talk) 09:11, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

{{editsemiprotected}} I am sorry if talking directly to the editors was impolite. The Palestine page is "semi-protected and can be edited only by established registered users", I am a new user and not allowed to edit semi-protected pages. I do not know how to "amend", so therefore i "talk" directly to those who made the false claim.

I hoped those 2 editors (Amoruso and RolandR) who added the wrong claims would be willing to delete the statements in the article.

I have given my arguments above here - there is no biographi mentioning any travels to Palestine by Reland in 1695, no travels at all, no mentions of the year 1695 in any biography.

The source given (by Amoruso or RolandR?) for the claim that Reland travelled to Palestine is written in Latin, and obviously translated wrong, or misunderstood.

Here is my 7 sources, all the biographies about Reland that i have found on the internet, and one outside internet - never is any travels to Palestine mentioned, neither is the year 1695:

1 - http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Hadrian-Reland 2 - http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00008385/images/index.html 3 - http://bc.ub.leidenuniv.nl/bc/olg/portret/content.html 4 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriaan_Reland 5 - http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriaan_Reland 6 - http://viswiki.com/en/Adriaan_Reland

7 - ENCYCLOPAEDIA JUDAICA Second Edition, Volume 17, Page 214

"RELAND, ADRIAN (Hadrian; 1676–1718), Dutch Orientalist and theologian. Reland studied at Utrecht, was appointed professor of philosophy at Harderwijk in 1699, and professor of Oriental languages and antiquities at Utrecht in 1701.

He published Antiquitates sacrae veterum Hebraeorum (1708) and De spoliis templi Hierosolymitani in arcu Titiaco Romae conspicuis liber singularis (Utrecht, 1716). Reland’s major work was Palaestina ex monumentis veteribus illustrata (2 vols., 1714), in which he collected all the knowledge then available on the historical geography of Erez Israel and its ancient sites, arranging the latter alphabetically. His sources included not only the writings of classical authors, but also those of the church historians, the Lives of the Saints, and talmudic literature which he quotes in the original. Reland also recorded Nabatean and Palmyrene inscriptions, though he was unable to decipher them. All later Orientalists made use of his monumental compilation which is of value even today."

--Wikiexaminer (talk) 16:18, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I did not insert this statement, and make no claims for its accuracy. I merely linked Reland's name to his Wikpedia article. The statement was originally inseryted by Amoruso, who now seems to have left Wikipedia. I am reluctant to remove ir, precisely because I doubt the accuracy of the entire passage, and could be accused of non-neutral editing. I'm sure the editors who support the claim would point to the many sources [24] [25] which repeat this. The fact that you have not found a source which states that he travelled to Palestine in 1695 does not in itself prove that he did not. Unless you can find a reliable source which directly states that he did not, I think no editor would be lokely ro make the change that you request.

Meanwhile, if you cannot distinguish between an error and a lie, you are likely to find editing on Wikipedia a thankless task! RolandR (talk) 18:40, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Semi-protected NOT DONE at this time, as I see no clear consensus to make the change requested.

Wikiexaminer (talk · contribs) I note that your account was Registered 05:26:52 PM 11 May 2009 UTC, and you have made 7 edits. Once your account is 4 days old, and you have made 10 edits, you will be autoconfirmed and able to edit semi-protected articles yourself, however, if you believe that the edits might be controversial, then I urge you to discuss your proposed edit on the talk page (here) and look to reach a consensus before editing. If you have further questions about this, please feel free to ask me on my own talk page, or get help live. Chzz ► 22:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

First, I appreciate your feedback very much RolandR and Chzz. I wantet to discuss with and talk to the person(s) who had (or should have) done the scrutiny of the source before inserting the statement that "Reland travelled to Palestine in 1695" when the known reality is that he never travelled outside Holland/Dutch/Netherland (translate the detailed dutch Wikipedia-page about Reland to english, and look at the sources).

I studied the log for the "Palestine page" and found that the statement was introdused/done by "Amoruso", and later edited by RolandR, and I hoped one of them had studied the source given (By Amoruso: 196 - RELANDI HADRIANI Palaestina ex monumentis veteribus illustrata. Trajecti Batavorum, Guilielmi, 1714., pages 648-649) for the false statemant about Reland, and could provide som information on the scrutiny of the source and statement introduced. It was impossible for me to know that RolandR did not either approve or dis-approve the text he edited which was based on the source which is wrongful interpreted or abused or mis-translated from Latin to English.

The source for the statement about "Reland visited Palestine in 1695" given by editor Amoruso (RELANDI HADRIANI Palaestina ex monumentis veteribus illustrata. Trajecti Batavorum, Guilielmi, 1714., pages 648-649), is scanned by google-books and available for anyone to study here : http://books.google.no/books?id=uuFaAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_book_other_versions_r&cad=1_2

There is nothing on those pages saying anything about Reland visiting Palestine in 1695. That is only from friends with a little knowledge in the language "Latin", and I am not sure how to get this verified. Do you have any suggestion? What about the "Wikipedia translation service"? Ideally there should be an independent translatour..?

Now, I have also searched the internet looking for the origin of the claim "Reland travelled to Palestine in 1695", and it seems that an "Avi Goldreich" posted the claim in 2007 http://www.think-israel.org/goldreich.palestina.html It seems that all pages on the internet refering to "Reland palestine 1695" do repeat the claims by Avi Goldreich. I have used www.alltheweb.com advanced search to arrange the search results by date, and there seems to be no "Reland palestine 1695" hits before late 2007 (after this person "Avi Goldreich" published his claim.

Here is some of the Dutch to Englis translation of the Dutch Wikipedia-page about Reland which explicitly states that Reland never travelled outside Holland - my point is (as I have stated before) it is very strange a travel to Palestine is not mentioned in any Biography about Reland, actually the details about the life of Reland show us He can not have travelled to Palestine. Why is small moves from a city to another city mentioned, and an invitation to England, but not an exotic travel to Palestine??? Not logic! Reland travelled as much to the Palestine in 16595 as President Barack Obama travelled to the moon in 1995.. :

From the Dutch Wikipedia-page about Reland, with translation to English:

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriaan_Reland http://translation.babylon.com/ Adriaan Reland of Reelant, gelatiniseerd: Hadrianus Relandus (De Rijp, 17 juli 1676 – Utrecht, 5 februari 1718) was hoogleraar oosterse talen, cartograaf en Neolatijns dichter. Met zijn boek Over de Mohammedaanse godsdienst (1705) was hij een belangrijke vertegenwoordiger van de Verlichting. (Translation Dutch-English) Adrian Redisembarked or Reelant, gelatiniseerd: Hadrianus Country you (The Ripe, 17 July 1676 – Utrecht, 5 February1718) professor was oriental languages, cartograaf and Neolatijns poet. With his book Over the Mohammedaanse religion (1705) he was an important salesman of the Alleviation. Leven Adriaan Reland werd in De Rijp geboren als zoon van de predikant Johannes Reland en Aagje Prins. De jurist Petrus of Pieter Reland (1678-1714) was zijn broer. Het gezin verhuisde in 1676 naar Alkmaar en vervolgens in 1677 naar Amsterdam, nadat Adriaans vader in die plaatsen als predikant was beroepen. In Amsterdam werd Adriaan op 11-jarige leeftijd ingeschreven in het Athenaeum Illustre, waar hij Latijn leerde bij Petrus Francius en Hebreeuws bij Everard van der Hooght en Willem Surenhuys. Op 13-jarige leeftijd ging hij in Utrecht studeren. Hij volgde de colleges Latijn en Grieks bij Johann Georg Graevius, Hebreeuws bij Johan Leusden, theologie bij Melchior Leydekker en Herman Witsius, filosofie bij Gerard de Vries en wis- en natuurkunde bij de astronoom Johan Luyts. Van zijn medestudent Heinrich Sike uit Bremen leerde hij Arabisch. Hij promoveerde in 1694 in de filosofie op een dissertatie De libertate philosophandi (Over de vrijheid van het filosoferen), waarna hij naar Leiden ging. Hier studeerde hij onder meer experimentele natuurkunde bij Wolferd Senguerd en was hij privé-leraar van de zoon van Hans Willem Bentinck, de latere graaf van Portland, die hem tevergeefs verzocht hem naar Windsor te vergezellen. In 1700 werd hij hoogleraar fysica en metafysica in Harderwijk. In hetzelfde jaar al werd hij benoemd tot hoogleraar oosterse talen in Utrecht, waar hij in 1701 zijn inaugurele rede hield. In 1713 werd zijn leeropdracht uitgebreid met de Joodse oudheden. Tot aan zijn dood door de pokken op 41-jarige leeftijd in 1718 bleef hij hoogleraar in Utrecht. Hij was getrouwd met Johanna Catharina Teelinck (dochter van Johan Teelinck, oud-burgemeester van Zierikzee), en vervolgens met Maria Hoffer, met wie hij een zoon en twee dochters had. Reland heeft zijn vaderland nooit verlaten; zijn kennis deed hij op in zijn studeerkamer. Hij werd begraven in De Rijp. De schilder Johan George Colasius schilderde tweemaal een portret van Reland. Het ene (ca. 1712-13) bevindt zich in het Centraal Museum te Utrecht, het andere (ca. 1710-15) in de senaatszaal van de Universiteit Utrecht. (Translation Dutch-English) Adrian Redisembarked in The Ripe was born as son of the preacher Johannes Redisembarked and Aagje Prince. The lawyer Petrus Redisembarked or Pieter (1678 -1714) his brother was. The family moved house in 1676 to Alkmaar and subsequently in 1677 to Amsterdam, after Adriaans father in who places as preacher professions was. In Amsterdam Adrian on 11-birthday person became age registered in the Athenaeum Illustre, truly he Latin Francius and Hebrew in Everard of of the Hooght taught in Petrus and Willem Surenhuys. On 13-year-old age he went to study in Utrecht. He followed the colleges Latin and Greek in Johann Georg Graevius, Hebrew in Johan Leusden, theology in Melchior Leydekker and Herman Witsius, philosophy in Gerard de Vries and sure - and physics in the astronomer Johan Luyts. Of his fellow student Heinrich Sike from Bremen he Arabic learnt. He took one's doctoral degree in 1694 in the philosophy on a thesis The libertate philosophandi (Over the freedom from philosophizing), after that he to Leyden went. Here he studied in particular experimentative physics in Wolferd Senguerd and he was private-teacher of the son of Hans Willem Bentinck, the later earl of Portland, who him in vain him to Windsor request to keep company. In 1700 he became professor physics and metaphysics in Harderwijk. In the same year all was appointed he to professor oriental languages in Utrecht, truly he in 1701 be retained inaugural speech. In 1713 his doctrine assignment with the Jewish antiquities was extended. To on his death by the pocks on 41-birthday person age in 1718 he remain professor in Utrecht. He had married with Johanna Catharina Teelinck (daughter of Johan Teelinck, old-provost of Zierikzee), and subsequently with Mary Hoffer, with whom he a son and two daughters had. Redisembark has his fatherland never abandoned; His knowledge gained he in his studeerkamer. He was buried in The Ripe. The pictorial Johan George Colasius painted twice a portrait of Redisembarked. The one (approx. 1712- 13) finds in the Central Museum to Utrecht, the other (approx. 1710- 15) in the senate hall of the University Utrecht. Werk Cartografie Hoewel hij zijn vaderland nooit heeft verlaten, maakte Reland een aantal landkaarten van o.a. Palestina, Perzië, Java en Japan. Zijn kaart van Perzië werd vooral belangrijk gevonden en had een grote invloed, terwijl zijn kaarten van Palestina de beste waren tot dan toe. (Translation Dutch-English) Although he his fatherland never has abandoned, made Redisembarked a number of country cards of o. A. Palestine, Perzie, Java and Japan. His card of Perzie became especially importantly and had found a large impact, whereas his cards of Palestine the best were to than. Referenties (Dutch Wikipedia) Alastair Hamilton, ‘Adrianus Reland (1676-1718). Outstanding Orientalist’, in: Zes keer zestig. 360 jaar universitaire geschiedenis in zes biografieën, Utrecht 1996, 22-31 Nieuw Nederlandsch biografisch woordenboek deel IX, Leiden 1933, kol. 581-582, art. 'Reland' A.J. van der Aa, Biographisch woordenboek der Nederlanden, deel 6, Haarlem 1852, art. 'Reeland (Adrianus of Hadrianus)' Portrait Gallery, Oosterse collecties Universiteitsbibliotheek Leiden References (English Wikipedia) a b c d John Gorton, A General Biographical Dictionary, 1838, Whittaker & Co. Power And Religion in Baroque Rome: Barberini Cultural Policies, P. J. A. N. Rietbergen, p.321 Adriaan Reland (1676-1718) Maps by Reland This article incorporates text from the Encyclopædia Britannica, Eleventh Edition, a publication now in the public domain.

--Wikiexaminer (talk) 11:00, 13 May 2009 (UTC) Formatted the quouted text - put it into a table.

Regards --Wikiexaminer (talk) 23:34, 13 May 2009 (UTC)