Talk:Orpington

Romany

A group of anons continuously adds irrelevant info about the Romany. Don't think it rises to the level of semi-protection yet. Just wanted to bring it up for further discussion later. Cheers, :) Dlohcierekim 16:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Not only irrelevant, but also totally illiterate gibberish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.122.19.249 (talk) 17:15, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi, the editor concerned was warned for taking material from the BBC Kent website, and asked to put specifically local context material into their own words. I would suggest that the material could be readily condensed to a cited sentence or two on the Romani links to Orpington (apparently it is has traditionally been an area of Romani settlement!). I think s/he has had enough time to knock it into shape. Kbthompson 17:16, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The artcile seems fine, when you say illigitment rubbish, do you meen the Romany words that you can't understand, Romany is a lanugage spoke world wide. What you saying is offensive to the Romany people, Romany history is of importantance to Orpington due it being the largest settle community in the UK. If you don't live in kent or Orpington or UK then your opinion is of no use.Diamonddannyboy 14:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry when you say illiterate gibberish. Are you referring to the Romany Speach. This offensive to all Romany Gypsies and you can be reported to the police, any more and ill ask for you to be removed from this site, Romanies are an ethic group, and most things past down are with rokker or speach and not in writing.Diamonddannyboy 14:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The language of this version of wikipedia is standard English. Your work does require extensive revision to fit into an encyclopaedic article, not least for uncited content and relevance to the article. I have put into the article all the referenced material I can find on Orpington and the Romani. I would suggest that you discuss any further changes here, as I first prompted you to, when you started posting copyright material here.

As I also suggested on your user page, you should observe before posting in order to find the kind of material that is acceptable. There are also a number of other issues here, first you leap to take offence where none is intended (although the anonymous user could have been more moderate in their language). Secondly, making legal threats within wikipedia is absolutely forbidden.

If you would like to discuss what further additions you would like in the article, please do so here. If as you say, it's part of a purely verbal history, then policy on verification suggests it has no place in wikipedia. Kbthompson 15:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I just the original article that I wrote in my own words, Romany History, must be of some importance to your readers, every thing I wrote can be verified and the artcile has been on wikipedia for over month, what wrong with it you are still not explaining, if such offensive things were written about other ethnic groups it would be against the law. surley to slate the romany lanugage is rasist. The article is about Romany History in Orpington only and can be verified on other sites. so what is wrong with the edit, I dont understand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Diamonddannyboy (talk • contribs) 16:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC) Of course romany history is written down, just do a google search on romany,gypsy or traveller, however the romanies dont write there history they tell it. All that I have wrote can be verified by BBC website Romnay routes, so if no one has any objections I would like the article to be put back. Thank youDiamonddannyboy 16:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

1. Not wikified
2. Repeats information included elsewhere in article and elsewhere in wiki
3. Poor phraseology and sentence structure, internally repetitive
4. Folk memory, unsupported by reliable sources (except messageboards)
5. Former place names not verifiable - otherwise I would have happily included them in the 'executive summary'
6. Unencyclopaedic. Long lists of unrelated common names are not particularly useful.

If you send me a link to an on-line presence for the Romani museum, I'll add something on it. I'm not unsympathetic to Romanis and I've bent over backwards to try to encourage you and point you in the right direction. However, you insist on going your own way and that's fine, but in that case, I would predict it won't be here. Kbthompson 16:52, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Romany Museum details THE SOUTH EAST ROMANY MUSEUM Howland Road, Marden Kent TN12 9DH 01622 831681 aslo I have left a link on your talk page81.152.136.21

Also when ive edited it do I put it on this discussion page for people to look at and approve81.152.136.21 —Preceding comment was added at 19:42, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, I've added the link to the external links. I hope by discussing the changes you want to make, we can put it into a suitable form for an encyclopaedia with suitable references - there's plenty of academic material on the romani life, it's just a question of finding it and ensuring that it has a very direct local relevance. Kbthompson (talk) 01:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

This is the article I would like to go on this page van any one help make wikipedia friendly. I need help with walter patemen a book was wrote about this romany solider first world war, only reference is on the bbc website romany routes, aslo is there any ref to gypsy rose lee queen of the gypsies who lived in orpington, gilderoy scamp king of the gypsies born in orpington.Diamonddannyboy (talk)

Romany History Orpington For Romany History the beginnings please see[Romani People][[1]]on wikipedia, this is about the Romany History Orpington, Orpington and surrounding area was a rural area, and had many Farms, and kent had many Hop & fruit Farms so Orpington became along with other area's such as Erith a stopping area or 'Atchin Tan' One of the stopping areas was Corkes meadow 'Corkes pit' and Ruxley Pit [[2]] another, Corkes pit[[3]] is not there any more and has been built on, but it was near to the gas works in Sevenoaks road. The other area was Ruxley pit which would of been located at the top of chalk pit avenue. Many Romany families would have stopped at Corkes pit from all over the uk, not just the kent Travellers, in the 1960s, the hop farms started to use machinery to pick the hops and didn't require the labour from the travellers, also they started to use labour from abroad. It was now coming hard to find stopping places, and the council made it hard for travellers to stop. The council had to provide permanent stopping areas for these travellers. One such area is Star lane site which is one of the largest in the uk and [St Mary cray] as the largest group of Romany travellers, the lucky famlies got plot's on these sites and others took houses kenners with great upset around the corkes pit arealesson Hill others moved from kent, and continued to struggle to get work and find Kushti Atchin tans' After the Farm work tried up and the travellers could not follow the seasons for picking such as Fruit apples or pobble Cherries Gulos and potatoes and hops, and when it became over for the women and men to 'hawk'. The men started to look for local labouring work and many families settled. Many of the young travellers are very far attached from the old nomadic life of the Romany people that left India over 1000 years ago, some are worried that the Romany jib or language will be lost as time goes by, even travellers in there fourties can't speakroker full romany, there is only 1000 people in the uk that can speak Romany compared to Romania 40,000. The travelling life is now really over for the travellers, but they still stay in touch with some of there past, along with fruit picking the women would of made and sold pegs and flowers door to door which is called 'hawking' they would taken things to sell in baskets called 'kels' This way of selling is now illegal, and is sadly lost. The Brazil family in Marden are trying to show young travellers the past, along with others throughout kent, at the [Romany museum][[4]] Some of the families from kent and who would of stopped at corkes pit are, Rutherford,Buckley,Saunders,Scamp,Lee, Love, Jackson,Chapman, Arnold, French, Ripley,Stanley, Crittenden,Price, Webb, Marny, Smith, Roberts, Jones, philips, Renolds, Waller, Smith,Brazil, Ball, Elliot, Taylor, Driscol, Mead,Pateman,Beany,Ward,Verrall, Dighton,James, Walker,Green, Ray and many more, most of the families still live in Orpington, and others live in kent or London. Famous Romanys from Orpington

[Gypsy Rose lee]][[5]] [Gilderoy Scamp][6]][,Mark Ripley Mark was not beaten by Bartley Gorman and was mentioned in his book., Jonny Love, Private Walter Pateman[[7]]Henry Jackson[8]] A book as been writen about Private Walter patemen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Diamonddannyboy (talk • contribs) 09:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Checking 'Romany History'

Hi, there are still many of the same problems with your text, and you are now acquiring new problems in that while your references may mention the name of the person, they do not in fact establish either their notability, or their connection with Orpington - for instance:- Gilderoy Scamp just leads to a photograph of the man, no further details apart from stating he was a resident of Folkestone. Similarly, with Gypsy Rose Lee, this was not the notable American of the same sobriquet, but a Gypsy queen living in Farnborough.

I'm likely to include the place names in the area's history text, as you have found some documentation for them. In an encyclopaedia it is not sufficient to throw a collection of unrelated 'facts' against the wall to see how many stick. They have to have some general notability and to be of wider interest. I hope that helps. Kbthompson (talk) 15:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Gypsy Rose lee, im talking about the queen of gypsies, who lived in orpington, not the singer who has no conection to orpington, the article is about romany history of orpington and romanies from orpington, Gilderoy Scamp was 'king of the Gypsies' and was born in Orpington. Apart from those two what else is wrong, I have shown that Gypsy Rose lee , was queen of gypsies and died in Farborough Orpington and linked web page to reference this. Ill add more on Gilderoy Scamp, he is even mention in wikipedia else where.

All the other like corkes pit, show pictures of it and web links the same with Ruxley pit, and the same with Private walter Pateman, the same with the Barzil family, and the same with Rutherford family. Every thing you write does not need a reference.Diamonddannyboy (talk)

Hi, that's not what those references said. If material already exists in wikipedia, there is no need to repeat it here (and yes, you added it!) - that's the reason for the links. What my aim here is to put as much of the information you have in a form that is acceptable to wikipedia. If we don't do that, someone else will just delete it. By editing in wikipedia you agree that that you neither own what you say, and don't mind if someone edits it - even to the point of complete excision. We'll see what we can do, information needs to be independently verifiable by others - this prevents the many hoaxes that people attempt on wiki. Kbthompson (talk) 10:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Each reference is backed up by web content, also other stuff on romanies on wikipedia, what else needs been done.86.152.120.134 (talk)

There is a hierarchy of quality of references. Some like wikipedia are edited by individuals, and so are not reliable enough to meet the criteria of verifiability. Kbthompson (talk) 12:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

With romany life in kent, there is not much writen on wikipedia, I find hard to believe that due to it not being on wikipedia but else where, that it is not verifiable, perhaps other Romany/travellers like myself who tried to write about our life and culture on wikipedia have found the same problems as me. I have verified the more important thing and I cant add a web link or wiki reference to every word and sentence. I have added a web link to the romany society for Gilderoy Scamp, they are an authority on romany life. do you want me to add links to every name mentioned. I dont understand81.159.182.27 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I have checked the rest of the Orpington page and most of is content is linked to web pages not wikipedia, just take a look at the sport and leisure section as an example81.159.182.27 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:17, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me for the rather obscure meme but...

This user believes that this bus goes to Orpington.

DOES THIS BUS GO TO ORPINGTON?! --MrMetalFLower (talk) 11:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

No. The last Routemasters stopped at Catford. Patrick Neylan (talk) 01:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

"and home to the nicest, caring girl ever called Zanna"

I don't know if this is valid. Maybe it should be removed from the article, it looks like vandalism to me Louisalena (talk) 16:44, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Kent to London year

I altered the lead, the year Orpington was officially in London. It's common knowledge, reflected by articles here on Wikipedia, as well as multiple other sources of information that all London Boroughs including Bromley, came into being in 1965. Someone put a 1970something date with a print book as a source (book which I don't have). but that is simply untrue and contradicts all other wikipedia articles as well as other sources. I don't wish to delete a source, but it might be incorrect statement. I imagine the book means the first election held as a London Borough was in 1974. I don't know?

Yes but the historic counties continue to exist, as confirmed by numerous government spokepersons (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/celebrating-the-historic-counties-of-england/celebrating-the-historic-counties-of-england). The administrative councils changed, not the county.WisDom-UK (talk) 12:51, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, govt statements are not secondary sources (and neither is an act of parliament). Ideally, we should find confirmation of what the situation is in a publication from a reputable academic who is expert in the field. The casual and ambiguous use of the term 'county' can cause confusion, leading to uncertainty as to what is meant by the source. This ambiguity of meaning is further complicated when we get WP editors inserting their usually amateur interpretation of what a source is saying. We therefore end up with referenced statements about local govt reforms and historic counties that are effectively original research. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 20:18, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

The situation is explained fairly well on the page for Historic Counties and various other pages covering English subdivisions. It is standard practice on Wiki for British places to state where that are now (administrative county) and the Historic county (if different). The government's ill-thought out local gov reforms and nomenclature since the 70s are to blame for the confusion. WisDom-UK (talk) 21:56, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree that successive local govt reforms have created the current mess. This goes back to the 1889 act but the seeds for later problems had been sewn even before then, see Metropolitan Commission of Sewers or Poor Law reforms. The WP guidelines on handling counties are, IMO, not dealt with at all well and they complicate the problem even more. As guidelines, they are based on consensus, which itself is based on editors' interpretation of the situation, which is personal opinion. The guidelines state that the historic counties no longer exist but have either disappeared or have been kept but altered into something new. Thus, Yorkshire was but is no longer, whereas Lancashire has been kept but significantly changed to make it something new. The idea of having two counties of Lancashire existing side-by-side and doing different things, is an anathema to many people, hence the guidelines that say the historic counties no longer exist. Nothing meaningful will occur on WP regarding the 'counties problem' until WP accepts that historic counties are currently extant entities. To do that we need an open minded debate, something hard to arrange with so many entrenched personal opinions. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 22:48, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

The historic counties live! They were never abolished, and remain today as they have done for centuries. Whichever made-up entity collects the bins is irrelevant. This has been confirmed by numerous government figures down the years (https://britishcountyflags.com/county-definitions/). To wipe them from Wikipedia would be an act of cultural and historic vandalism. WisDom-UK (talk) 22:59, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

The guidelines, that say otherwise, are here [9]. In respect of England, Scotland and Wales, a fundamental part of this guide is to reaffirm the long established position that we do not take the view that the historic/ancient/traditional counties still exist with the former boundaries. If you want those guidelines to say the historic counties do in fact 'live', then I suggest you start a discussion there, because that is where the procedure for changing the guidelines should start. Based on the current guidelines, this Orpington article is wrong when it states in the lead that it it is located in the historic county of Kent. We should change 'is' to 'was'. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 03:28, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, this is the first time I've seen that document, and right off the bat I can see several mistakes and misleading claims:

• The article states that 'the counties of England and Wales have undergone vast geographic transformation in the last few centuries' - this is simply untrue. Minus Middlesex (and that was 1888, hardly centuries ago), the counties remained essentially stable from the early Middle Ages (and in some cases earlier) down to the 1970s
• 'The counties of Scotland were officially abolished' - administratively yes, but as the gov. statements linked to above make clear, not as historic/cultural/social entities.
• 'Likewise the counties of Northern Ireland have no administrative role' - yes, true, but irrelevant. The continued existence of the six counties in NI as geographic/cultural areas is one of the few things the two sides there can agree on - all the NI place articles reflect this.
• 'A fundamental part of this guide is to reaffirm the long established position that we do not take the view that the historic/ancient/traditional counties still exist with the former boundaries.' 'We'? 'Long-established'? 'Position'??? No, no, no. All loaded, misleading terms claiming a consensus that doesn't exist.
• 'Where counties have been abolished... these should have their own articles, but maintain that they no longer function as contemporary counties.' Muddies the point by using 'county' unqualified. Places like Westmorland are not administrative counties, but they are historic/traditional/cultural counties.

Sadly, like so many 'controversial' topics on Wikipedia, a group of committed activists have banded together to create a set of guidelines which supports their own (highly contested, and I would say wrong) viewpoint, contrary evidence be damned, and then attempt to force everyone else to comply. I have seen this repeatedly on Wikipedia down the years, from the Falklands pages, Georgia, Israel, anything culture war-y - often I just don't bother editing those articles as I end up spending more time arguing on the talk page that actually editing/adding content.WisDom-UK (talk) 12:46, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

There isn't much point stating your case here. There are numerous discussions about this on different place name articles, but that is where they stay. You really must use the site I gave above if you want a discussion that will actually lead to change. Start a RfC. I will say one thing though - this county problem is not as simple as it might appear: stick rigidly to WP rules and procedure. First will to to find a RRS that says historic counties still exist. The flag website is not a RSS! Roger 8 Roger (talk) 13:52, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

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V2 Rocket

My late parents lived in Orpington and mentioned that it was the last place in the UK to be hit by a WW2 V2 RocketAT Kunene 123 (talk) 13:52, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes. It is mentioned in the V-2 rocket#Operational history article, with a reference.Charles (talk) 18:43, 31 December 2018 (UTC)