Talk:Orestes (play)

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Untitled[edit]

This needs some sources for the references to the Peloponnesian War, and for the points in the Themes section. Ravenous 17:20, 18 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

musical fragment[edit]

The papyrus framgent Vienna G2315 deserves an article of its own. Actually, it has one under the title "katolophyromai," but that article has a lot of information that conflicts with what is said in other sources such as Martin West's book Ancient Greek Music (often said to be the best introduction to the subject) and West and Poehlmann's Documents of Ancient Greek Music (which is the standard collection of fragments of Ancient Greek music). Both that article and this one link to performances of the music in the papyrus, but these links are misleading for two reasons. The first reason is that the piece is performed as if it is written in the chromatic genus (and the katolophyromai article says that the piece is written in that genus) but the books I have referred to say that it is unknown whether he piece is chromatic or enharmonic, and West says it is probably enharmonic if it is original because most choral parts in Greek tragedy were enharmonic. The second and even more serious reason these links are misleading is that the papyrus is severely damaged and only a few notes are readable, and even then the rhythm is uncertain. So the music in these links is just a fanciful reconstruction of what was originally written on the papyrus; most of the notes are made up. There is a computer-generated enharmonic performance of the notes we actually have here: http://www.oeaw.ac.at/kal/agm/. However, it is not very useful to listen to without a transcription of the music from the papyrus in front of one because otherwise one can't match the words to the music. Unfortunately, the papyrus is just too mangled for it to be possible for a lay person to get much of a sense for what the music of Greek tragedy is like by listening to it.

I completely agree with the previous comment. I have modified the article Katolophyromai, in particular as regards the rhythmic structure and saying that the fragment is written in the Lydian tones, but that the conserved vocal notes belong to the ancient Doric harmony, which we know by Greek musical theorists who expressly say that it is in enharmonic genus (Aristides Quintilianus). I also added a link to a recent reconstruction of the fragment, giving the reasons for choosing each of the missing notes and a video with music sung in the enharmonic genus and a transcription of the music from the papyrus. --Belugilco (talk) 19:53, 27 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Commentary in Plot section[edit]

The following appeared in the first paragraph of the plot section. The plot section should just describe, well, the plot. This goes beyond that. I welcome it on the page (although sources would be nice), but not in the plot section:

As in most of the plays of Classical Greece, Helen is portrayed as a vacuous floozy. Some commentators criticize Euripides as being a misogynist; however his dialogue is often very ironic. Consequently, one reading of the play, especially from a patriarchal mindset, would have Euripides place blame for the Trojan War and the fall of the House of Atreus at Helen’s feet. In fact, Euripides may arguably use Helen as a device through which to discuss several larger themes such as freewill, fate, and the role of the gods in the cosmos. For example, Helen is unable to take personal responsibility for allowing herself to be abducted to Troy, and blames Apollo for the problems in the House of Atreus.

--John (User:Jwy/talk) 18:06, 22 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

See also these two phrases removed: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orestes_(play)&diff=648353927&oldid=648353182 --John (User:Jwy/talk) 18:13, 22 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]