Talk:Opéra féerie

Fairy-tale as base?[edit]

The related German article has in the introduction "works that show fairy-tale elements", such as The Magic Flute, even if not based on a fairy-tale, or more. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:41, 15 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I can't see anything wrong with that introduction at de:Märchenoper. The 1st sentence here should be expanded similarly, extending the genre beyond "based on" to "or showing fairy-tale characteristics".

The current text here, referring to Italian roots, seems strange to me. Here's the full entry from Millington's Grove entry on which it is apparently based:

The origins of Märchenoper were traced by Schmidt back to such works as Baldassare Galuppi’s Il paese della Cuccagna (1750), Laruette’s Cendrillon (1759) and F.-A.D. Philidor’s Le soldat magicien (1760). But the term, and variants such as ‘Feenmärchen’, ‘Märchenspiel’, ‘Volksmärchen’ and ‘Feerie’, more strictly refer to a genre which acquired considerable popularity among German composers of the 19th and early 20th centuries, typical examples being written by Drechsler, Schnyder von Wartensee, Riotte, August Conradi, Sommer, Humperdinck and Siegfried Wagner. Fairy-tale operas were written in other languages too (see Opéra féerie), though the appeal to the German Romantic imagination was uniquely powerful.
Fairies as such are not an obligatory feature of the Märchenoper: an element of the supernatural, the oriental or the irrational may suffice. Simplicity and naivety of treatment, in the manner of a children’s story, are characteristic, though the works are not necessarily intended for a young audience; indeed, the content of the tales is often symbolic and bears a moral message. Occasionally the borderline between fairy-tale and myth or legend is blurred: a work such as Wagner's Siegfried, which contains fairy-tale elements, is clearly close to Märchenoper, as are Weber's Oberon and Marschner's Hans Heiling, though they are not so designated by their composers. There is also an affinity with such genres as Zauberspiel and Zauberoper.

I think the whole "German" section should dropped because there's no difference between "fairy-tale opera" and "Märchenoper" – which puts the recent move of this article from "Opéra féerie" in question; that move really required a subsequent reorganisation of the article.

While I'm at it, here's Peter Branscombe's entry in Grove for "Zauberoper":

A term, used more often by music and theatre historians than by contemporary librettists and composers, for a Singspiel with spoken dialogue that relies to an unusual extent on stage machinery and spectacular effects. In theory the term could be applied to any opera that employs magic; but in practice its use is normally restricted to the kind of magic Singspiel that was a staple of the Viennese popular repertory during the 18th and early 19th centuries. Philipp Hafner’s Megära, die förchterliche Hexe (a ‘Zauberlustspiel’, 1763) is an early example, Mozart’s Die Zauberflöte the most famous one. The Wenzel Müller-Perinet adaptation, Megera (1806) is actually subtitled ‘Zauberoper’. Müller’s Kaspar der Fagottist, and Wranitzky’s and Weber’s adaptations of Wieland’s Oberon, are typical examples of the recurrent motif of the hero being granted supernatural aids to enable him to rescue a woman in peril. The Kauer-Hensler Das Donauweibchen (1798), an Ondine variant long popular in German lands, inverts the usual formula by having magic separate the earthly lovers.
Numerous operas employing magic to a more or less marked extent continued to be written and performed during the remainder of the 19th and much of the 20th century; Schreker’s Der Schmied von Gent (1932), indeed, is subtitled ‘Grosse Zauberoper’. However, the Zauberoper genre in its original and limited sense tends to exclude operas (for instance Wagner’s Ring, and the Strauss-Hofmannsthal Die Frau ohne Schatten and Die ägyptische Helena) in which, though magic plays an important part, the emphasis is primarily on more exalted concerns.

-- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:26, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, "Fairy-tale opera" seems to have no currency as a specific English term. The move should no have been made without discussion. Johnbod (talk) 03:57, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Das geheime Königreich is not based on a fairy-tale, but called a (satirical) Märchenoper. I think the scope of this article could be broader but that should show in the lead. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:02, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is now imo a complete mess. According to Grove and other authorities, (none of which seem to recognize the term "fairy-tale opera") there are two distinct traditions, "Märchenoper" and "Opera fėerie". Then there are other operas that do not fit into either of these categories but have a "fairy-tale" background, such as Iolanthe, The Love of Three Oranges, Die heilige Ente, (or Turandot for that matter) etc. etc. It seems that Wikipedia has invented the term "fairy-tale opera" and has created an article about this invented category bringing these different traditions together, clearly transgressing WP:OR. It is definitely not the case that, as stated in the present lead, "Fairy-tale opera comprises several traditions of opera based on fairy tales" - except in the mind of the creator of this article. Can we therefore scrub the existing article and start again on proper WP principles - i.e. separate articles for Märchenoper and Opera fėerie and maybe a separate category, Operas based on fairy tales.Smerus (talk) 09:01, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be a start to move this article back to Opéra féerie because that seems to be its main focus? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:10, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I think so, see comments at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Opera. Then we should put up new article on Märchenoper and make the present title a redirect, as suggested by Gerda.Smerus (talk) 12:30, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. Johnbod (talk) 13:03, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]