Talk:Ogaden

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Ahmad Gurey[edit]

The article about Ahmad ibn Ibrihim al-Ghazi (Ahmad Gurey or Ahmad Gragn) says he was from Zeila and does not mention Ogaden at all. (Also, the Akisho, Gadabuursi, and Leelkase articles each claim he was from those respective Somali clans). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

truthfully he is from akisho clan of gadobursi while i am from bahgari of ogaden sub clan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.155.64.150 (talk) 17:06, 12 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Ahmed Gurey is from The Yabare sub-clan of the Jidwaq clan and it’s written in Futuh Al-Habash Somali boqor (talk) 11:46, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ogaden?[edit]

Why is "Ogaden" spelled "Ogadēn" in this article? There has been no discussion on this talk page about this style? Is there a good reason to replace the more common English form with this variant that apparently reflects local pronounciation? -- llywrch 04:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know. Sesel changed it back in May without an edit summary. - BanyanTree 13:03, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I was wondering about this too, because I've seen a number of maps where the name is spelled "Ogadēn". This one is from the World Factbook and uses the "ē" spelling (though it is hard to discern). I have another map at home with this spelling. If this is the correct spelling then perhaps a page move is warranted (easy enough to do, but thought I'd bring it up first). Also I'm not sure if the same spelling issue applies to Ogaden people. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:06, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm admit to a bias of avoiding accents, diacritics & other fancy add-ons to letters in names, unless this usage can be shown to be fairly common. This is because I've struggled thru more than my share of scholarly works pedantic correctness has unnecessarily kept me from recognizing the familiar names of people & places. Would anyone take issue if we just moved this back to "Ogaden" & added a note in the introduction about its proper pronounciation? -- llywrch 21:00, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. A tweak for readibility with a note about the technically proper pronunciation sounds just about right. Cheers, BanyanTree 22:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


No objection. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:58, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've gone ahead & changed it -- & I'm guessing at the pronounciation, so if someone knows it better please fix. I also changed the spelling of some of the towns listed in the article to agree with other links. -- llywrch 17:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

History before Europeans[edit]

Would somebody like to fill in what the history of the region was before the British Colonial office starting writing its version? I apologize for my assumption that it was either part of the ottoman or egyptian empire and that these empires probably collected tribute as the extent of their control. Glad I was corrected but would like to see more.

  • Walashma dynasty?
  • Adal sultanates ?

I am obviously clueless. --Rcollman 00:37, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Other clans[edit]

I am on my third revert in 24 hours regarding the following sentence: "The fact that some Somalis call the entire Somali region of Ethiopia 'Ogadenia' is a cause of much friction in the region, because other clans have a significant presence in the area." The sentence previously listed the names of other clans in the area, but the cited source did not actually mention these clans by name (link). Thus I removed the names of the clans, having seen previous edit wars over which clan resides in a particular place. Anonymous editors (different IP addresses, but same ISP) keep restoring the clan names (and as the IP keeps changing, I'm not sure the editor is seeing my "User Talk" messages, or whether it's the same editor). As I am already on my third revert, I will not remove the unattributed information should it reappear. Instead I propose adding {{Failed verification}} to the sentence. Furthermore the source in question is an opinion piece, perhaps not the best choice of reliable source in the first place. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:24, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought, I'm not too worried about three reverts, given that I'm removing unattributed information (still, I'd rather avoid an edit war). I have added another source (link) but it doesn't specify the other clans, either. Also this article did not mention that there is a clan called Ogaden, so the sentence in question was lacking context. I have addressed this, as well. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:38, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

February 2008 edits[edit]

An anonymous editor is repeatedly changing the attributed text in the article. To date I have blocked 4 different IP addresses (3 with the same ISP, all 4 in Saudi Arabia). I am asking the editor(s) to cite additional sources if they believe the existing ones are incomplete. Otherwise, if the edit pattern continues then I propose semi-protection for the article. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The anonymous edits continue to appear from new IP addresses. I am protecting the article for a week, in hopes that the editor(s) involved might use the talk page to discuss what they're trying to do. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:20, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Semi protection time[edit]

I'd definitely reccommend a semi-protection on this article. Too often we've got people without the guts to register and stand by their comments, who use poor English and have no idea about NPOV. Mdw0 (talk) 04:56, 5 January 2009 (UTC) [reply]

Ogaden infobox[edit]

User:GuledCasowe added a map and infobox (with Somali Region's flag) to the article, identifying Ogaden in such a way that it appears synonymous/contiguous coextensive with Somali Region. I didn't think this was the case, though. I thought the region was (slightly) bigger than Ogaden itself. (Kind of like how Holland is not the entire Netherlands; Russia was not the entire Soviet Union etc.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:16, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've replaced {{Infobox Province in Ethiopia}} with {{Infobox settlement}} (though I wonder if {{Geobox}} might be better). I'm not aware that Ogaden has ever been an official administrative division (e.g. a Province or a Region), but {{Infobox Province in Ethiopia}} uses map and flag defaults that assume this is the case. Furthermore, I don't believe that Ogaden is synonymous, or coextensive, with the Somali Region (for example, Haud is also part of the Somali Region). Thus, I also don't see how Ogaden has a capital or established boundaries. I'm not sure what to specify for | subdivision_type= in the infobox, as it isn't (officially) a state, region, province, district etc. so I used "Region (non-administrative)" for now. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:39, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See also this news story which says "Ogaden is a territory in the southeast of the Somali Region in Ethiopia." (In other words, not coextensive with the entire region.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:48, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Concerning about the Map of Ogaden[edit]

Hello The Ogaden comprises the biggest portion of Somali Region. The Somali Region consists of 9 provinces, which 5 were part of Ogaden Raz Gez, a Province in the Derg Regime, the other four zones were not part of Ogaden Province during Haile Sellasie and Mengiustu Haile Mariam. on the other hand. yes the map is the same, but am looking for the correct map of Ogaden in the near future. For some reason Ogaden is currently synonymous to Somali Region, even the Hard Liners Ogaden Rebel Group claim Harar and Awasa as part of Ogaden.

On the other hand, the new census, which was undertaken in 2007, although it is not official predicts that almost an estimated 2,300,000 people live in the Districts that Ogaden's inhabit. Note that the Somali region consists of 52 districts with varying population number. Largest number of people, as the census says, live districts not inhabited by Ogaden. There's some reason because, census staff didn't go the Ogaden districts due to insecurity issue. So still the census is contested, but I took the number by adding all the districts that inhabited by Ogaden, minus those districts that other clans co-inhabit with Ogaden.— Preceding unsigned comment added by GuledCasowe (talk • contribs) 04:06, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Concerning about the Flag of Ogaden[edit]

Concerning the issue of the flag, I may use strong argument. First the Ogaden is without a doubt part of Somali region, it never had its own flag before the ethnic federelism is enshrined in the FDRE Constitution. The Region, whether Somali Region or Ogaden, has now its autonomous adminstration. It has its own parliament with freely elected Peoples representatives. Among 186 members of the regional parliamnent, 111 are from Ogaden. These members, on behalf of their constituency, have ratified this flag to represent the region.

On the other hand, Since Ogaden and Somali Region is inseparable to each other, only we should respect what people on the ground have opted. This flag is now over all the area you name as Ogaden. Its also shows the Ogaden Culture (Camel), ethnicity (bright) and Ethiopian nationality (Red, Yellow, Green)— Preceding unsigned comment added by GuledCasowe (talk • contribs) 04:22, 21 January 2011‎

vocabulary[edit]

It seems to me unnecessary to use rare words like "irredentists" for a general use encyclopedia.90.3.84.127 (talk) 06:35, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ogaden/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

please what i wont to talk is the name of ogaden area this is a somali region where everclian of somali leave how it could name ogaden?who named for ogaden?and when it was?

Last edited at 19:23, 7 July 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 01:43, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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Etymology[edit]

To add to article: an etymology of the word "Ogaden." 76.189.141.37 (talk) 00:21, 19 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Etymology[edit]

Hello User:Kzl55, you removed a well cited section without any offer for solution, several times [1] We can add the many interpretations in the article about its meaning. I'll let you pitch the sentence for the etymology line here, please post how you think the line should be in that section. We can not however exclude anything, we dont like. The reference from what I read also says its based on the Ogaden Somali clan without going into what it means, we can add that as well if you like. Lokiszm7 (talk) 23:35, 14 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Its not about exclusion, but more about misrepresentation of the source and giving undue weight to a minority view. The source explicitly states: "there is no clear agreement as to the origin of the term Ogaden...". Moreover, it states that this is just the opinion of informants and not that of the author. Furthermore, the author states "... what is commonly accepted by many, however..." suggesting that the aforementioned view is not commonly accepted by many. That particular interpretation also does not seem to appear anywhere else. As such I suggest holding off and finding more appropriate reliable sources for inclusion. Kzl55 (talk) 00:05, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If concerns are undue weight, we just make it clear in the article, that its not the majority view and include it. I believe the commonly accepted interpretation is its named after the Ogaden clan. This source is an important contribution that actually goes in depth on the possible origins. Do you agree with "The origin of the term Ogaden is commonly attributed to the Somali Ogaden clan who dominant the region however some informants claim its a combination of Harari words Uga and Aden meaning road to aden due to its important trade link between Harar and Arabia for centuries". This oxford source claims its named after Ogaden clan [2] hence looks to be majority view but its meaning is not mentioned again. I think the mentioning of informants should suffice, if you're worried about it being mistaken for the authors view. Lokiszm7 (talk) 00:39, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that it is presented in the text as a minority view, one that the author himself is not sure of, which is why adding it is problematic. There is no need to have an etymology section if whats presented is based on information supplied by informants from a single source, and not multiple, high-quality, reliable sources. If the interpretation is to be added at all then his explicit statement about there not being a clear agreement on the origin is important. On a separate note, this article seems like a duplicate of Somali Region. It is probably worth considering a merger of the two as they relate to the same geographic area. This also avoids any confusion caused by the naming conventions. --Kzl55 (talk) 01:04, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Aside from the Oxford source, there's one from Springer, this too claims it takes its name from Ogaden clan [3], which indicates there are multiple sources thus warranting an etymology section, another user had also requested etymology for ogaden just above us. From your response, it seems you need it to say "there's no clear agreement" which is fine with me. What about rephrasing in the following: "The origin of the term Ogaden is unknown however its commonly attributed to the Somali Ogaden clan of the same name. Other informants claim its a combination of Harari words Uga and Aden meaning road to aden due to its important trade link between Harar and Arabia for centuries". Lokiszm7 (talk) 02:59, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The Springer source says nothing about the previous Uga and Aden interpretation. Although it seems to be echoing the previous source you cited about there being little information about the origin of the name Ogaden "There is no formal definition of 'the Ogaden'". As such I suggest holding off adding interpretations until more informed ones that are supported by reliable sources are found. I have added additional text to flesh out your suggestion, from the Springer source: "The origin of the term Ogaden is unknown however its commonly attributed to the Somali Ogaden clan of the same name. The term originally referred only to land inhabited by the Ogaden clan, though it is now used as a general albeit imprecise alternative name for the Somali Region", are you happy with this? It is also perhaps worth noting somewhere that such use is opposed by other groups within the region, as alluded to by the Springer source "the modern use of the Ogaden name is opposed by some people in the region because they feel it implies Ogadeni political leadership, both in general and specifically over non-Ogadeni lands. However, there is no useful alternative term and it is now widely used and accepted in many fields of study". --Kzl55 (talk) 23:49, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We dont need a formal definition, take a look at the etymology section for Rome [4]. Clearly shown that several hypothesis are mentioned, we dont omit it because its unclear. Ok revised considering all viewpoints big or small should be mentioned mainly due to Ogaden's origins being unclear. "The origin of the term Ogaden is unknown however its commonly attributed to the Somali Ogaden clan of the same name. The term originally referred only to land inhabited by the Ogaden clan, though it is now used as a general albeit imprecise alternative name for the Somali Region. One source says its a combination of Harari words Uga and Aden meaning road to aden due to its important trade link between Harar and Arabia for centuries". Lokiszm7 (talk) 07:06, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Several hypothesis can be mentioned, provided each is well sourced with multiple high quality citations. In the case of the "Uga and Aden" interpretation, we have a single source narrating conflicting interpretations by informers, with the author himself alluding to this interpretation not being commonly accepted by many. As such I suggest holding off including it until better sources are found. Other than that I think your text provides an acceptable middle ground, though I think adding a note about application of the term Ogaden not being universally accepted is important: "The origin of the term Ogaden is unknown however its commonly attributed to the Somali Ogaden clan of the same name. The term originally referred only to land inhabited by the Ogaden clan, though it is now used as a general albeit imprecise alternative name for the Somali Region of Ethiopia, this usage is opposed by other clans inhabiting the region. --Kzl55 (talk) 23:07, 16 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There is no definite explanation yet you're taking up issue with conflicting interpretations? As I have said I have no issues with wording it in a way, that its made clear its not majority view. Institute of Ethiopian Studies publisher Journal of Ethiopian Studies is high quality, and I have yet to find any sources that discuss the Ogaden etymology as thorough as this source. Im going to ask for a third opinion since we are not seeing eye to eye on the issue. Lokiszm7 (talk) 02:33, 17 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What the sources seem to indicate is that there is no known etymology. The author you are citing makes it clear that this interpretation is not commonly accepted, furthermore, the "Uga and Aden" interpretation is not their opinion, but what an informant told them. It is not clear why you insist on adding such statement, especially when it only appears in a single source and is not backed by multiple, high quality sources. If it were then there would be grounds for inclusion. Please note, exceptional claims require multiple high-quality sources per WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Lets wait for a third opinion. --Kzl55 (talk) 08:05, 17 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am adamant because the journal is very reliable source regarding the subject. Why didnt you question the bold statement that states the term ogaden denotes just the territory of the ogaden clan in the past? I have not read any other sources that claim that. Why is that ok to publish in the article despite being the only source to say so? Do you understand the reasoning you're making here? Lokiszm7 (talk) 08:49, 17 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We are going in circles, as I said, what the sources indicate is that the etymology is not known. The journal can be reliable, but the author is clear that the informant's interpretation is not commonly accepted. Furthermore, this interpretation only appears in a single source which does not meet standard set by WP:EXCEPTIONAL requiring multiple high-quality sources for such claims. I actually think there is no need for an etymology section altogether given the lack of high quality reliable sources, but was attempting to reach a compromise given your insistence on its inclusion. Anyways, I suggest we stop here and wait for a third opinion per your request. --Kzl55 (talk) 01:41, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed this article is unusually small given the available reliable sources and its high importance within wiki project Ethiopia, if we continue to scrutinize peer reviewed works it will remain this way. Let me point out that the exceptional claim is directed towards non peer reviewed references, given the several unclear hypothesis on the origins of the term, I dont think it would violate this policy. My insistence was to be able to highlight the various meanings of said subject, including the one you had originally removed. Lokiszm7 (talk) 04:02, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The article is a duplicate of Somali Region, which possibly explain its size, and the article being short is never a good justification for inclusion of non-notable content. This has little to do with scrutiny, and more to do with adherence to WP guidelines. Statements such as the one you are trying to reinstate require multiple high-quality sources, instead, we have a single source whose author makes it clear the informant's interpretation is not commonly accepted. Had this interpretation been cited in other reliable sources then its inclusion would have been more understandable, but it isn't. That is why it shouldn't be included. Anyway, I dont want to go back and forth endlessly, lets stop here since we are not getting anywhere and await the third opinion you requested. --Kzl55 (talk) 01:42, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

3O Response: I can't see the Oxford source but for the Landscapes one, since it's much more recent, has sources (which admittedly I haven't checked), and seems to have an idea of the development of the term, I'm happy to take its explanation as given (although it doesn't go into the etymology of the clan name). The theory from the other paper may be more akin to a folk etymology but nonetheless provides an interesting link to the history and geography of the region, which I suspect is why Lokiszm7 is so intent on keeping it. I personally think it's interesting so don't mind leaving it in given multiple reliable sources are always going to be hard to find for niche topics. How about this:

The origin of the term Ogaden is usually attributed to the Somali clan of the same name, originally referring only to their land, and eventually expanding to encompass the whole of the modern Somali Region of Ethiopia.[1][2] This usage is sometimes opposed by other clans inhabiting the region. An alternative (possibly folk) etymology analyses the name as a combination of the Harari word ūga ("road")[3] and Aden, a city in Yemen, supposedly deriving from an ancient caravan route through the region connecting Harar to the Arabian Peninsula.[4]

─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 16:36, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Appreciate the contribution ReconditeRodent, I would only add the fact that the origin of the word Ogaden is not known, this much is accepted by sources above, so the statement becomes:

The origin of the term Ogaden is unknown, however it is usually attributed to the Somali clan of the same name, originally referring only to their land, and eventually expanding to encompass the whole of the modern Somali Region of Ethiopia.[1][2] This usage is sometimes opposed by other clans inhabiting the region. An alternative (possibly folk) etymology analyses the name as a combination of the Harari word ūga ("road")[5] and Aden, a city in Yemen, supposedly deriving from an ancient caravan route through the region connecting Harar to the Arabian Peninsula.[6]. Any thoughts?

--Kzl55 (talk) 02:54, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your input ReconditeRodent. I agree with your proposal Kzl55. Although its unrelated, this source [5] claims other Somali clans dispute Ogaden clans majority status, it might be beneficial to include this. Lokiszm7 (talk) 03:40, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
An etymology section should be added to this article. And, for reference, the word "it's" (a contraction of "it is") is spelled with an apostrophe between the "t" and "s." 76.189.141.37 (talk) 02:29, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Lokiszm7, I've added your suggestion, as well as a source for usage opposition in the etymology section.--Kzl55 (talk) 00:12, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ a b Gérard Prunier; Éloi Ficquet (2015). Understanding Contemporary Ethiopia. Oxford University Press. p. 36. ISBN 978-1-84904-261-1.
  2. ^ a b Paolo Billi (23 March 2015). Landscapes and Landforms of Ethiopia. Springer. p. 324. ISBN 978-94-017-8026-1.
  3. ^ Leslau, Wolf (1959). "An Analysis of the Harari Vocabulary". Annales d'Éthiopie: 292. Retrieved 20 March 2019.
  4. ^ Eshete, Tibebe (1994). "Towards a History of the Incorporation of the Ogaden: 1887-1935". Journal of Ethiopian Studies. 27 (2): 69–70. JSTOR 41966038.
  5. ^ Leslau, Wolf (1959). "An Analysis of the Harari Vocabulary". Annales d'Éthiopie: 292. Retrieved 20 March 2019.
  6. ^ Eshete, Tibebe (1994). "Towards a History of the Incorporation of the Ogaden: 1887-1935". Journal of Ethiopian Studies. 27 (2): 69–70. JSTOR 41966038.
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