Talk:Novgorod veche

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The traditional scholarship[edit]

Almost every paragraph starts with "The traditional scholarship...", it sounds stupid. The Western Scholarship doesn't want to know that there was democracy (almost :)) in Russia? The truth hurts, doesn't it? It's America that invented it yeah? :) I think the article sounds too much antirussian. The stress on "The traditional scholarship" makes think as if veche was a Soviet Fantasy, althouth it's commonly accepted among professional scientists (i'm not talking about those looking for a sensation). 195.113.149.177 (talk) 18:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the current scholarship (since about 1962) that opposes the "traditional scholarship" is, in fact, Russian. Academic Valentin Ianin is the main proponent of those who argue that the veche was oligarchic and not democratic. Thus, the idea that this is anti-Russian is rather stupid. In fact, the idea of democracy as we think of it existing in the medieval period (one person one vote, majority rule, etc.) is no longer accepted by modern scholars anywhere in Europe or elsewhere. That said, the "traditional scholarship" such as Kliuchevskii, Nikitin, and others in the nineteenth century did argue that the veche was democratic, but this is no longer accepted by modern scholars; it is not anti-Russian anymore than arguing that the city assemblies in Germany or northern Italy were not democratic is anti-German or anti-Italian. The efort was to give the traditional view and then contrast it with the present understanding of scholars, not to be anti-Russian (or anti-Rus' to be more precise). --Mcpaul1998 (talk) 01:01, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Origins of Novgorod Veche[edit]

According to the old Russian Chronicles three out of five peoples who lived in the coming Novgorod area were Finno Ugric, the Meris (Merjas), the Vepsäs (Vesh), and the Tshuudis (Chuds). All these three tribes had the free men tribal court named Käräjät where everyone had the right to be heard if he felt he was been treated wrongly or he was a victim of the crime. The case was publicly spoken out in Käräjät and the käräjä court gave the verdict in the case. The two Russian tribes the Krivitshes, and the Slovens had their own system of their justice. When Novgorod was formed, each of the five had their own Käräjät or Veche but in the most important cases the "ylikäräjät" (supreme court) which had two representantives of each five member peoples solved in majority principle the most difficult cases just as a war or peace. Later, when the Finno Ugrian influence diminished in Novgorod, the käräjät become simply known as Veche with its Russian name and was based to Russkaja Pravda. (Russian Justice).

According to Eino Kuussaari (1935) and other Finnish historians the the words säätää (enact), käräjät (lawsuit), vannoa vala (take an oath) all dates from period 1000-400 BC. of which the year 400 BC. can be taken as quite reliable for the existing of "käräjät" in the Baltic Finnish peoples tradition. Maybe the best free transliteration in English is "Free men´s free court."

JN —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.112.93.222 (talk) 19:51, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

Corrected a gross mistake[edit]

The phrase under the direct control of Grand Prince Ivan III was erroneusly linked to Massacre of Novgorod which happened nearly 100 years later under Ivan IV. I removed the link. 176.15.77.168 (talk) 12:19, 25 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]