Talk:Nigger/Archive 3

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Hemingway's use of the word "nigger"

Please discuss or give your opinion on this. It is not mentioned on Hemmingway's page which I thought was odd given that it is shockingly striking in uncensored versions of his novel To have and have not. (my seventies version has it in anyway) (82.40.177.159 07:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)) ng blacks!!!

Archive

• Talk:Nigger (word) Archive 1: July 2002-January 2004
• Talk:Nigger (word) Archive 2 April 2006-July 2006

Purpose

its a great word to describe them stuipd chicken fried eating blacks!!!!!!!!

It is interesting why this word is even in this 'dictionary'. African Americans are only 10% of the US population but this word has, what 1000% more content then Caucasian? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian

This is why I hardly ever use this site. I wonder how long this comment will stay here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.248.253.208 (talk) 17:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

The word "nigger" is easily the funniest, yet most controversial word of our era. The fact that a single word has only one meaning, which is an insult to blacks is ridiculous. The word nigger also means a person who possesses little or no knowledge or is inferior or ignorant. Blacks who associate the word "nigger" to be only for their race, are in fact niggers.

["Caucasian" is not as politically and historically loaded. It simply does not warrant the same kind of scrutiny. The comparison is weak, and the above comment strikingly ignorant. 128.103.14.30 05:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC) SI]

It's obvious ingrained racism. I know, I'm white and I see it more than black folk do. Most of us have it inside our heads.(82.40.177.159 07:42, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

Well at least it gives all of the little white supremists something to play with...--Art8641 21:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Since it is no longer used, why not recycle the word as John Lennin and Ron Dellums have to describe all disadvantaged people? This applies to millions of involuntary victims of psychiatry.CCHR.org 4/6/07 74.71.210.136 16:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Not Related to the word "niggard"

The word "niggard" has no connection to the N word at all.

Etymology: Middle English, of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Norse hnøggr niggardly; akin to Old English hnEaw niggardly

a meanly covetous and stingy person : MISER

It doesn't have the same etymology and is in no way associated with the N word though people have been fired for using it.

Yeah, but it's phonetic similarity to "nigger" has (at least) put it on the cusp of being an archaic, obsolete term. How often do you hear "niggard" in public discourse, compared with its synonyms? Applejuicefool 19:30, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

All in the Family

The article states, "The comedy series All in the Family is rarely censored even though the "N-word" is used frequently".

Is that really true, or just common conception? I've seen loads of episodes of that shows and heard lots of insulting words used, but I can't recall that word ever being spoken on the show. It might be like Star Trek, where everyone quotes McCoy as saying "damnit Jim, I'm a doctor not a...", but the word 'Damnit' was never spoken on that series by any character.

Sys Hax 05:41, 12 October 2006 (UTC) :
Uhhh... actually, he said it about being a bricklayer in "The Devil in the Dark". See [RevolutionSF magazine, among many other sources]]

Could someone provide an episode and quote where the N-word is used on All in the Family?--Daniel 03:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it was. If it was on All in the Family, I will have completely lost my respect for that show. coloreds was pushing it enough and Archie could have cooled down on the constant whininess Tonetare 23:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It was used, very infrequently. One instance I can think of specifically is the late series episode in which Meathead and Archie get locked in the basement of Archie's newly accquired bar. Archie gets really drunk while the two wait for resuce, and starts reminiscing about his past. He mentions getting into a fight during his school days with a black kid. When Meathead asks what starts it, Archie replies "because I called him a nigger". He then points out that it was common back then (the 1930's) and he learned it from his father, not understanding that it was considered offensive.

All In The Family is so ridiculous TareTone 05:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Sammy Davis Jr. also said "nigger" when he was on All in the Family. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 05:51, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

The word "nigger" was initially used to define not the physical characteristics of a person as mentioned in many readings today, but the social ideology that people whose lineage could be traced back to the continent of Africa, were unintelligent, lazy, and deemed inferior by those of Anglo-Saxon descent. Older issues of the Websters dictionary will support this claim.

Speaking to the previous comments in general: I don't know about All In the Family, since I've never been much of a fan of the show. But the word "nigger" -- along with "honky" and many other pejorative words -- was regularly used in the spin-off show The Jeffersons. Contemporary political correctness would suggest that there is no excuse for the use of such words, especially on national television. But one has to place it in context of the time imo. In the 1970's, we as a nation were finally addressing the issue of race. In the guise of comedy, race was addressed quite bluntly.

But now as a young black man, I cringe whenever I hear anyone using such words -- whether black, white, Asian, Jewish or whatever -- about anyone else, because the use by one group excuses its use (and abuse) by another. If I had my way, such old TV shows form the 70's that are aired today would be edited much like even older shows from the 30's, 40's and 50's are. Because times are different and the way we see the use of such words is different. It's no longer funny, assuming it ever was. Whether slang, hip hop, or whatever, there is NO contemporary use/excuse for such words imo. In the end, they're offensive. Darnold01 21:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations. You're a censor and setting society back decades. Progression is key and being upset over two syllables is ridiculous. You are moronic for limiting yourself.--—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.193.238.6 (talk • contribs) .

Please avoid calling other editors morons and the like. This can be interpreted as a [attack], and is not acceptable on Wikipedia. I do, however, agree that even older shows shouldn't be censored. We don't need to be given some rosy-coloured image of the past. Censorship, it seems to me, is rarely a good thing. garik 10:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ideally, I competely agree with you that "censorship is rarely a good thing." But assuming that applies here, then logically 128.193.238.6 should have every right to call me whatever he/she wants, including perjoratives like "nigger", "honky", "gook" or whatever. But there is a reason why Wikipedia 'censors' such offenses. There's simply no reason to personally offend me (and other readers) with the use of such words here.

Now, I'm totally against government censorship of programming. But like Wikipedia has every right to set it's own policies with its own content, broadcasters should also have the right to set their own policies with their own programming. If broadcasters deem the use of such words in their programming as offensive to their viewers, as Wikipedia does, then so be it. It's theirs to do with as they please, not mine, yours or 128.193.238.6's.

If 128.193.238.6 is 'genuinely' so incensed by censorship, he/she should now take up the issue with Wikipedia. [[User:vDarnold01|Darnold01] 15:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Removal of Unnecessary Paragraph (Combinations with other words)

The entire Paragraph below should be removed, as it serves no informative purpose, and is needlessly offensive:
Other creative uses of the word nigger are widely considered highly offensive. For example, a hungry person looking to be obscene might express a craving for a "nigger butter and jelly sandwich", with nigger butter being a word play on peanut butter. Nigger butter in this case is superlatively obscene as it is understood to be made from ground up niggers. More ambitious uses of the word nigger are often virulent exercises in profanity; one could offer the threat, "I'll grind his nigger bones to make my nigger bread", on which one might spread nigger butter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fruitbatnt (talk • contribs) 7 July 2006

• I agree completely. HumbleGod 20:00, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
• Nigger butter? Removed. NorrYtt 23:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Forming other portmanteaus with nigger can target other groups, including: combining nigger with Chinese to produce chigger (not to be confused with the parasitic arthropod) with Korean, kigger with Japanese, jigger with Taiwanese, tigger with spic (a slur for a Hispanic), to produce spigger combining nigger with Puerto Rican to produce Niggerican Other word compositions with nigger that are defaming to persons geographically: taco nigger, of Mexican descent timber nigger or prairie nigger or swamp nigger, of Native Americans sand nigger, of Arab or East Indian descent snow nigger, of Inuit descent ninja nigger, of Asian descent potato nigger or "niggers of Europe", of Irish descent nigmeisters, of German descent pineapple niggers, of Polynesian descent

THIS SHOULD BE REMOVED...THESE ARE NOT REAL TERMS!

"Niggers of Europe" is a real term used to refer to Irish people in the 1700 and 1800s. There are historical documents with its usage, including a political cartoon which I have seen. I will be researching the source shortly --Farbotron 21:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

*Completely agree, Removed. Graham Laycock 23:22, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

There is a portmanteau that is real (real enough to warrant its own page, anyway), "wigger". Interestingly, though, the prejudice is reversed, being a derogatory term for Whites who try to appropriate Black culture. Delius1967 05:37, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Inclusion of Independent of race segment

As a black man, I think that this needs to stay in the article. Although it is humorous in nature, comedians have often used the stage as their forum for commentary. These are things that are talked about in the black community amongst ourselves. It also shows the discontent we have for "our own" who makes us look bad and keep the stereotype alive. There is a distiction that "we" know of. It should remain here so "y'all" can see another point of view that had to be re-inserted by someone who didn't want it there.

This is a neutrality issue, because without this angle, it keep the work solely on race, as opposed to a wider, unmentioned context.--Ben414 02:47, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Twice my addition has been pulled out, within seconds of being posted. Has anyone even read this, and verified it's source, or do you just routinely censor items you don't want others to see. I saw no reason for the removal, so until I do, I'll assume the latter. --Ben414 03:05, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

One word that is banned by American society

This word has an unique place in the American lexicon as being the one word that is forbidded to be used. It is the word that must not be uttered and can only be referred to by its first letter (N word). Those who do use it face enormous social sanctions. An exception to this is that black people can use the word when referring to each other in a friendly matter though often they use the word "Nigga" which is also considered extremely offensive when used by those who are not black.

it is blown out of purportion, I can say nigger all I want no problem. I wouldn't in front of a black guy but I won't get arrested or beat up.156.34.158.176

Problem with usage of "thug"

There are multiple problems with this sentence which is in the Usage paraphgraph: "More recently, the term has been used to signify a black person who is a thug, instead of black people altogether." Not only is this POV, it is also imprecise and confusing to somoene who is not from the U.S. or is not familiar with black culture. First of all the term "thug" needs to be defined, because its current usage does not correspond to the dictionary definition. Secondly, it is only in certain cases where the n-word is used to refer to "thugs." The sentence as it is fails to consider that black people use the word in a number of different contexts. The word is sometimes used even when the two people in the conversation do not consider themselves to be "thugs." --Farbotron 21:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Lead Paragraph

There are inconsistencies and clunkiness here.

1) The first sentence is fine.

2) The second sentence is far too long, and very hard to understand. I easily see that nigger was for a long time "a standard, casual English term for black people," and I agree with that characterization.

But what on earth is the meaning of "During the period when slavery was practiced worldwide, and in particular by the United States and European countries, and for several decades after Europe and North America prohibited slavery, ..."? I think it might mean "During the time when slavery was practiced in the United States and Europe, and for several decades thereafter, ..."

I also think that "several decades" is incorrect. I believe the word had the casual meaning until the 1960s, or for about 100 years after the abolition of slavery.

I would suggest something like "From the time of the Atlantic slave trade into the early 1960's...."

3) The third sentence seems to contradict the second. If the word was for a long time a "standard, casual term," how can it have "traditionally been associated with "an overt contempt," etc.?

4) I lived in the North during the 1940's and most of the 1950's, and in the South during the late 1950's and early 1960's. I can say with certainty that in my world nigger was not particularly associated with an "assumption of inherent black inferiority," or of "bestiality." Neither was it "extremely pejorative." It was simply what white people often called black people. It was not considered to be a polite term, however, and in polite conversation the word negro or colored person were commonly used. There was an assumption of inherent black inferiority and maybe worse, but the assumption was independent of the word used to refer to black people.

My personal experience shouldn't determine the content of the article. It calls the third sentence into question, though. Lou Sander 03:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

100 years could fall within the scope of the phrase "several decades". Wiktionary defines "several" as "Consisting of a number more than two, but not very many, three to seven; a divers; sundry." Yes, I see the 3-7 range, but it's not a very exact term and could easily be stretched to 10. Also, I dunno if I agree that nigger was still a "standard, casual term" by the '60s. Sure it was still being used, but since that's when the Civil Rights movement was in full swing, I imagine nigger would have been pretty inflammatory by then. Applejuicefool 20:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

slavery

slavery was not just practiced in the United States and Europe it was in Africa too some of the tribes captured other tribe members and killed or gave them to traveler's

If you want to mention tribes, why not go all the way as to tell of slavery during the renaissance? Pogo 00:09, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

slavery is still practiced in africa. and black people use the term "nigger" more than white people.

Only black people (African-Americans, specifically) who don't know or understand the historical connotation with slavery, subjugation and inferiority use the word or any variation of the word "nigger". Non-blacks regularly note that blacks use the word, as if it's some kind of an excuse for its use (by them?). But what they don't understand -- and I can assure you as a black man -- is that the word "nigger" can hurt and demean coming from a black person as much (if not more so) as it would coming from a white person, as it's often meant to. It's use among blacks, also a result of slavery and in connotation with subjugation and inferiority, is not always "positive", so to speak -- not even close. In fact, it's more often negative.

Don't use the word. Don't excuse its use. The same with other 'potentially' offensive words used in reference to whites, Asians, Jews, etc. Their use is not only a sign of racism but also of ignorance. Darnold01 21:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Negroid

The opening sentence could be better, "is a term used to refer to dark-skinned peoples, especially Africans or people of African descent." should read "is a term used to refer to dark-skinned peoples, especially negroids or people who have features seen to be negroid like.".

There are many africans and people of african descent who the term nigger isn't particularly used for. There would be more chance of a Paupa New Guinean being called a nigger than an Egyption Arab for instance, who is actually from Africa. While many darker skinned people are called niggers who are not negroids, the term nigger is related to and refers particularly to people who would be classified by forensic anthropologists as negroids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people is an article that should be linked to aswell. It discusses who would be considered a nigger, negro or colored in different societies. Why terms like Negro/Colored/Negroid not included in the article?

Clarification on Australia.

Though this isn't a "substantial change," I believe the phrase "African-American" as written in the Australia reference below is confusing.

Either this quote is reporting that Australians might identify black people in the Americas as "nigger" but reserve "Abo" and "boong" for indigenous Australians, or the phrase "African-American" is a point of view error from a non Australian author who wants to avoid appearing crass.

In Australia, although in general the meaning of the word is perfectly well understood to refer to African-Americans, it is now rarely used by urban light skinned people in any context; when referring to indigenous Australians, the casual terms Abo and the more derogatory boong are used in its place. However, nigger has seen common use in rural or semi-frontier districts. In this context, the usage was British colonial, that is, applying generically to dark-skinned people of any origin (c.v. Rudyard Kipling). This has led to controversy, since Australian Aborigines have started to take the term strongly to heart, in both the pejorative and revisionist senses (see below under Names of places and things).

I agree, it is confusing. Lenn0r 02:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, not sure how to add a new comment and this item is related to the section on NZ and Australia but the statement about the term Maori having any similarity to the negative connotations of the word "nigger" is completely incorrect. Pretty much any term _other than_ the correct term of Maori is considered potentially offensive (for example "black" is not at all politically correct in New Zealand). Feel free to correct but am NZ born and bred.

Yes you are correct. I am Maori and whoever wrote that section in the article is an idiot I wish someone could delete it. The correct reference for Maori people is MAORI PEOPLE, it has NEVER EVER been the N WORD!!! WIKIPEDIA PLEASE CORRECT THIS ARTICLE AND REMOVE THE SECTION REFERRING TO NZ MAORI AND THE N WORD.Ttam2 23:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree this is absolutely wrong. Maori is never used pejoratively. The New Zealand reference should be deleted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.176.60.253 (talk) 06:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC).

Frankly, the whole use of the term "African-American" in any context other than that specific to American citizens and their ancestors is parochially US-centric and (more seriously) factually incorrect. Native-born black Britons, Australians, Maori New Zealanders, etc, can never be said to be "African-American", and thus uses of the phrase in any paragraphs referring to non-Americans or their diaspora should be altered. - 82.153.103.27 20:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Another case of Australian and New Zealand cultural habits being lumped together. The colonial and cultural histories of the two countries are a world apart. Any slang or other usage of the term "nigger" in New Zealand is likely to be entirely derived from the overuse in American popular culture. To suggest that the term "nigger" is used as slang for Maori is entirely unfactual. The word may have occassional slang usage, but most commonly between friends of any racial lineage, as influenced by it's pop culture useage in American film and music. It would make no logical or historical sense to use the term as an offence against any pacific island group. Doccawhom 10:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Niglet

Shouldn't a reference to 'niglet' be made in this article? Maybe on the combinations with other words? --Kalmia 02:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I AGREE ONLY IF TO SHOW THE RACIST ATTITUDES SHOWN TO MINORITY THIS DAYS

clarification

The word nigger is simply derived from the Latin word meaning 'black', and has been used to refer to black people, typically though not always of African origin, since the 1500's. The two African countries Niger and Nigeria (originally pronounced 'Niggeria') also derive their names from colonial use of the word Negro and its variants: Negroid, negro (Italian and Spanish), negre (French), etc. there are also relic Negroid peoples through the Malay archipelago and vietnam peninsula: Negrito's in the Philippines, Montagnards in Vietnam, the Andaman isalnds off India. Of course with time this generic term (simply the opposite of 'white') came to have a derogatory connotation. I have heard it used extensively in black on black conversation in high schools for example, usually as an insult. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lgh (talk • contribs) .

No, unfortunately you don't know what you're talking about. Check the article on the Niger River... The origin of the name Niger is unknown. It is often assumed that it derives from the Latin word for "black", niger, but there is no evidence for this, and it would have been more likely for Portuguese explorers to have used their own word, negro, or preto as they did elsewhere in the world; in any case the Niger is not a blackwater river (see Rio Negro). The name is thus thought to be indigenous, but no convincing origin has been found among the 30 languages of the Niger delta and lower reaches of the river. One hypothesis is that it comes from the Tuareg phrase gher n gheren "river of rivers" (shortened to ngher), originating in the middle reaches of the river around Timbuktu. Arthurian Legend 21:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

God, I love Wikipedia! So many knowledgable people. Darnold01 21:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Even if "Niger" doesn't come from the Latin root, that doesn't mean "nigger" didn't. Also, surely SOME Portuguese of the time were educated enough to speak Latin, no? Applejuicefool 20:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I work in a tile shop in Australia and all the black tiles we import from Spain are called the niger series. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.107.182.227 (talk) 03:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

Contradictions

The claim in this article that the word "nigger" was not considered offensive before the 1960s is highly dubious, and contradicted by the article itself. If it was not offensive until the 1960s, why was the New York Times censoring the word in the 1940s? Why was a book that used "nigger" in the title sparking protests in the 1920s? The word's pejorativeness or lack thereof over time needs sourcing, badly. Nareek 22:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I've changed the lead, but this piece still has serious problems. The assertion that "coon", "darky" etc. were at one time words with no pejorative connotation desperately needs a source--I for one find that very hard to believe. The claim that the many literary uses of "nigger" show that it was not an insult also needs to be backed up with an outside source; most of the quotes read to me like writers using a provocative word for humorous, shock or ironic purposes. Note the paragraph about slaves using the word to indicate acceptance of a subordinate status--how could it do that unless their was something subordinating about the word? Nareek 02:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The term nigger, however, is truely not of any black racism. It's real meaning is that of an ignorant person. So people who take nigger to offense, are ignorant. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.39.224.202 (talk) 17:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

This needs references

Can someone with a background in Linguistics or Race relations in American fix this up? Too many idiots think they now what they are talking about because they use the word.

Idiots? in American? English buddie, English. -Tigger Wigger

Chris Baker?

"Its use by other races, particularly Chris Baker, is regarded as extremely offensive, however the different pronunciation "nigga" can be used within the African American community in a neutral or positive way." Err? 24.132.24.44 14:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism, I removed it. Feel free to do so yourself next time :) Use the history option to see what changes are made and which are appropriate to remove/fix. - BalthCat 14:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

who the hell is chris baker and why would someone say something so stupid? TareTone 05:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Other "Combinations with Second Words"

Has anyone thought to increase the enormous number of racist epitaphs that fall into this category? One term I'm absolutely astonished nobody added was the term "college nigger." Capote uses the term in In Cold Blood to describe a person who attempts to use fancy language in an attempt to appear more educated (i.e. looking up long words in dictionaries then using them). --76.16.160.102 00:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

vandalism

lot's of vandalism on this page. It's inappropriate TareTone 05:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

African-American

The term "African-American" is politically incorrect. There are white's who live in Africa, there are white's who live everywhere. I have not seen "African-American" on any statistical papers I have filled out in a LONG time. Most black people I talk to say they prefer being called black as, they are black. Imagine all white people being offended by being called white so they want to be called "European-American". The term is VERY incorrect to classify a persons race. Loquat15 14:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The Term African-American is not used to describe ones race. It is a cultural term that some black americans use to descibe themselves as Africans whos ancestors were brought to the Americas against their will. You are correct that not all blacks are African-American, but that does not mean that there are no African-Americans. African-American is far from politically incorrect. It is a term used to describe a culture... There is a difference between race and culture...

Its a stupid term. Most "African Americans" have never been to Africa and are at least fifth generation immigrants if not 10th. Black is a term that makes alot more sense.209.169.111.193 06:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

And what of "Irish-Americans", "German-Americans", "Italian-Americans", "Chinese-Americans" etc who also have never been to their 'ancestrial' homes in generations? Fact is, Wikipedia's own definition of "African-American" is most appropriate, accurate and politically correct: "a member of an ethnic group in the United States whose ancestors, usually in predominant part, were indigenous to Sub-Saharan Africa."

Loquat, whites who live in Africa are likely not to be any kind of "American" anyway, nor do they want to be. Darnold01 22:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

By that rationale, "black" is a stupid term, as it refers to a specific colour, whereas "black people" covers a huge range of skin tones. Moreover, as you point out, given many would be 5th generation then there may well white, latin, etc, in their family history. Surely the point here is not for us to decide which term is most appropraite, simply to state which terms are most common, and any differences between them? --Mike Infinitum 01:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Caucasian not accurate term for whites

Although the term is commonly used in the United States, Caucasian is not an accurate word to describe all White people. If you click on the Caucasian link, you will see various definitions with precise meanings (including people from the Caucasus region).Spylab 12:49, 22 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

Caucasian in common usage is a reference to the Caucasoid race, which seems to be as accurate a description of white people as any other. Obviously, like any other word, its meaning must be taken in context. The proposition that someone could, in conversation, mistake a reference to "white people" as a reference to "people from the Caucasus," quite frankly seems asinine to me.--24.40.139.209 07:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I think when clarification needs to be made whether Caucasian refers to "a white person" or "one from the Caucasus," it be given at that circumstance. It's contextual, and I have faith that people will be smart enough to figure it out.

People shouldn't have to be "smart enough." Caucasian pretty much only means white in America, every where else, it relaies to the Caucasus region. Using it for white is very much America-centric. ɱўɭĩє^{What did I do}_wrong 03:21, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

It's an outdated term when anthropologists though that europeans might have originally came from that region. I'm originally from europe and was moved to america and a young age and I find it more asinine that people of European descent are lumped together and called Caucasian in this country, than one ignorantly assuming that it would be foolish to think that no one would see the word as being exclusive to the people of the Caucus region. It would be like calling all asian people nipponoids, or calling all africans... niggerongos (to assume all black people originally come from Nigeria and the Congo even though they might not have) because people of European background don't come from the caucus region... a person from the caucus region probably wouldn't even be considered white in this foolish country. A better general term for white people is Europid or just European. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europid

This is confusing as anything to me. I understand that America-centricism is frowned upon in Wikipedia - why? The United States contains the majority of native English speakers in the world. Not just a plurality - a clear majority. Yet whenever a term comes up (like Caucasian) that is used primarily in the United States, it's automatically suspect or put down for "America-centricism". I know this is a politically incorrect thing to say, but maybe it's the rest of the world that's wrong. Applejuicefool 21:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The Famous Nigger

Should this, or new article, mention that Nigger was also the name of the canine character in the classic world war two film, The Dambusters? --Jamesr84 11:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Good point - useful info particularly as an example of how acceptable usage has changed - there is obviously no chance that would be included in a modern film. Hippo43 11:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

"Acceptable usage"?! LMAO! A character called "Nigger" created by blacks or whites? For blacks or whites?

I'm sure it could (or even should) be included in some context in the article. But calling its usage at anytime "acceptable" is offensive. I'm sure my black grandfather, who fought for this country, would be just as offended then as I would be now to see such "acceptable usage" of the word "nigger" (especially in reference to a dog!) on film. Darnold01 22:16, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Your point is taken, but certainly there have been people (White, Black, and other) throughout history who have used the term "nigger" without pejorative intent. At one time, it was just the word to use for a racially black person. Sure, you can get into all the "language of oppression" debate you want (some people would argue that ANY linguistic reference to blacks by whites was, is and always shall be "unacceptable" - that whites' interest in blacks is derived from the slave trade so the whole relationship between the races, including linguistic references, is improper), but the fact remains that social outcry against the term grew parallel to society's moral outrage at the treatment of black people. Applejuicefool 21:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The David Howard case

My edit was to correct a simple error in fact. normally I wouldn't comment on a routine edit. But given the volatility of the topic, I suspect there may be editors waiting to pounce on any changes made to this article. If that is the case, those editors may have been condtioned to expect edits here to be rascist one way or the other. So I'm adding this discussion to avoid problems.

context: I just made an edit resulting in:
David Howard, a white city official in Washington, D.C., was fired from his job in January 1999, when he used "niggardly" in a fiscal sense while talking with African American colleagues, who took offense at his use of the word. In the subsequent furor, Howard was offered his job back but declined it.

The original incorrectly stated that howard quit but was reinstated. This is incorrect as of the last time I read about the case. (Also, I believe that you can only be "reinstated" in you were fired, though I could be wrong about that).

Now, it is POSSIBLE that howard recently agreed to return to his job and I don't know that. In fact I hope so; I live here! But if that is the case, then that fact should be *appended* to what I wrote because he did, in fact, decline to return when the offer was made to reinstate him. (The universal assumption by people living here is that he declined because he was disgusted at having been fired by semiliterate black people for using a word correctly).

Even if howard has returned to his job, the original article omitted the critical fact that in a PC pogrom, he was fired from a government job for using an innocous word correctly. It was THIS aspect of it which caused the furor. If somebody quit just because his coworkers were grumbling, it wouldn't have made the Washington Post.Sys Hax 05:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Please note the word 'niggardly' has nothing to do with the word 'nigger' but implies a miser/niggard.

According to the Washington Post and the Straight Dope, Howard was not fired, he resigned; and Mayor Williams subsequently rehired him. The edits will be corrected. 74.136.207.99 02:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

N.I.G. - Different meaning in the British Army

N.I.G. is a term given to new recruits in the British Army. It stands for "New In Green" and is not intended to be a racial slur, although still a derogitary term aimed towards new soldiers. I'm unsure that NIG should redirect here as I couldnt find any references to that word in the document.

NO THIS JUST PROVES THE RACISM BY WHITE PEOPLE AND HOW PREVAILANT IT IS IN WHITE SOCIETY BECAUSE YOU ARE SCARED BY THE MINIORITY WELL GEUESS WHWAT WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH AND SOON BLACK POWER WILL BE REALISED

—What the hell are you talking about? "This just proves the racism by white people" Let's see how fast this post gets deleted for what I'm about to say... There is no "black power" in the U.S. There are however, a bunch of degenerates who will do nothing because they sit near their radio's and listen to some dumb ass wanna be thug glorify the gangster life style. Don't just go and say "oh your just stereotyping" The hell I am. Any one with half a brain can see this is a problem. And if something isn't done soon, we'll have a bunch of ignorant people like our friend in caps above me running the streets arming them selfs because "little Nig" told them to...

Nigga merging

nigga should have a different page as nigga. one is offensive and one is not offensive. It makes things less controversial on this page and there is already a lot of controversy on this page. Twentyboy 18:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't really understand what you mean by having the articles seperate making things "less controversial." Either way, I don't think that's a particularly strong reason for or against a merge. I would support a merge -- nigga is simply a variant on nigger, even if the meaning is different. It makes more sense to discuss it as a subset of nigger than as if it's some entirely different word. -Elmer Clark 04:51, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I concur with Elmer Clark, First of all, whether or not "nigga" is an offensive word is not for any one person (or group of people) to decide. Perhaps having "nigga" merged with "nigger" will shed some light on the discussion of whether or not it is offensive. Secondly, "nigga" is derived from the offensive term "nigger" therefore the relationship should be documented here in the context of the original terms that are discussed as being accurate origins of the word. The context in which the term "nigga" is used in, which "twentyboy" has claimed is not offensive, could be directly traced back to Richard Pryor first using it in his stand-up comedy routine. This may be up for debate, as I have not listened carefully to an old Pryor recording lately, but I believe Pryor uses the word "Nigger" and not "nigga," which he later denounced in an interview after he had visited Africa. -lukymia 23:09, 24 October 2006

Everyone always turns these topics into wars. I have an idea though as a caucasion girl I have never used the word "nigger" to describe anyone or anything. If I can do this why dont we all just save some time and not use words that offend other people. The word "nigga" originates from the word that everyone takes so offensively so how could that fix anything? If only people would grow up and quit trying to cause problems for everyone else all of those words people use to describe races wont be used.

Ok, but Wikipedia really isn't the place to argue your opinion on this kind of issue. -Elmer Clark 22:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I would definately oppose this merge. The two terms, though simmilar, are distinct enough to leave seperate. I believe that the differences between nigger and nigga are on par with those between nigger and negro (which also has its own page), and those between nigger and colored (which, again, has its own page). Linking with a See Also should be sufficient. As the content is not repetitive or too redundant, I see no need to merge here. --Srwm4 01:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

It is simply an opinion that nigga is less offensive than nigger. I for one am offended by both terms. These are the same terms just spelled differently. The history behind both words is the same... By the way I am black myself and never use either word.

Merge nigga into nigger and discuss variations on the word "nigger" and the different meanings of the variations. Steevven1 01:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm kind of new around here but I'd like to share my opinion. I think they should remain separate because most people think of them as separate regardless of whether or not they think one word is less or not at all offensive. Also, there is enough of a distinction in popular culture created by the people who use the word and feel that one or the other applies to them to allow for a distinction here.CJ 15:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Oppose Merge - "Nigga" is used in a much more positive context, while the n-word is quite derogatory.Bakaman _Bakatalk 02:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

MergeThey are the same word, people. "Nigga" is just a phonetic rendering of the Ebonics pronunciation of "Nigger". People who speak Black Vernacular always pronounce the word "nigger" as "nigga". They are a single word. "Nigger" has different connotations in different contexts, that's all. And that's good. Nigger should be used as widely as possible. Disarm it. Pull its teeth. It is treating it as a taboo which gives it all of its power. 65.197.28.158 16:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge Nigga is just a variant spelling of nigger based on Ebonic accent, and is not a wholly separate word, as above. LHOON 16:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge The word "nigga" didn't exist before "nigger" and arose as a variant and derivative of "nigger". That it has a different subtext and is considered non-pejorative would be fully explained. The fact that unless seen in print - the two words SOUND alike to the ear - underscores why this should be merged. The difference in acceptability of "nigga" is also a factor in the way the original word has gone from common usage to its pariah status. Davidpatrick 11:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Ref Fat Joe as non-black

Fat Joe is of both Puerto Rican and Cuban descent. It is common knowledge that Puerto Rico and Cuba were colonized by Europeans, and that black African slaves were imported to do hard labor. Moreover, these black Africans often mixed with the indigenous peoples as well as the colonists. After hundreds of years of intermixing, it is evident that populations of both Cuba and Puerto Rico are very heterogenous and that one would be hard pressed to find a purely white or purely black Puerto Rican or Cuban. Furthermore, according to the one drop theory, having anyone of black lineage in one's family indeed makes one black. Therefore, I question the relevance of mentioning Fat Joe in this article if he could in the strict sense be considered black.

I strongly disagree. You're not going to find a lot of people who consider Fidel Castro black. And I hate to break it to you, but the "one-drop theory" kind of went out of vogue a century or two ago. -Elmer Clark 08:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Not where I or most Americans stand. 66.167.145.54 13:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Tupac cites the word NIGGA meaning ( Never Ignorant About Getting Goals Accomplished) and Thug life as ( The Hate U Gave Lil Infants Fucks Everybody) please add this where appropriate

Please remove protection on this page

You have spelling errors right on the intro.

[New comment] I want to add a link from this entry to an article that is clear on the racist history of the N-word. The link is [1] ("The“N”Word in Racist America. For Black Liberation Through Socialist Revolution!" Workers Vanguard No 807)

That's BS... it still exists today in the U.S.

Latino Rappers

I wish to change the paragraph which talks about its usage among rappers:- "Although the popular white rapper Eminem refrains from using the word, recently the word nigga has been used by many non-white, but non-black rappers such as Fat Joe, Pitbull and some latin artists. The slang term has brought some controversy to America and confusion to the white population as to what forms of the word are offensive and what forms are not." to simply- "Although the popular white rapper Eminem refrains from using the word, recently the word nigga has been used by many latino rappers such as Fat Joe, Pitbull and some other latino artists. The slang term has brought some controversy to America and confusion to the white population as to what forms of the word are offensive and what forms are not." as to avoid confusion over whether these latinos are white or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TeePee-20.7 (talk • contribs) 02:25, November 14, 2006

I'm not sure how that avoids confusion, it seems to create more? The way it's currently stated, it's clear that they are not black, which is what makes their saying "nigga" significant. Your revision leaves out that key detail -- a black Latino saying "nigga" would not seem strange to anyone. -Elmer Clark 00:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems that TeePee wants to remove "non-white", and Elmer wants to keep "non-black". I think I can be WP:BOLD to fulfill both requests. :-). If you disagree, feel free to say so. AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 18:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see a reference to the website "Abolish the N-Word" added to the "external links" section of this article. http://www.abolishthenword.com/ - Thank You.

Recent Usage

I've noticed through many people, all around the world (specifically US, Canada, UK, Thailand and Singapore) that the N-word is used somewhat jokingly by non-black people, even referring to non-blacks as well. I don't see it used often in a single conversation, perhaps once or twice but it's utterance is popping up all over the place, regardless of whether or not a black person is present. It seems to be a bit more lax and is losing its negative, racist connotation. Take for example Shaun of the Dead, when Ed gets out of the car and says 'Sup N****s', and only receives just an exaggerated sigh and minimal shock from the others. That seems to be the reaction around a lot nowadays. But, to the point, should this be mentioned, and if so how?

Well step one is to find a credible source. Always keep WP:NOR in mind. -Elmer Clark 21:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It may be losing its "negative racial connotation" among non-blacks, but 90% of white people will learn the error of their ways quickly if they use it around 90% of black people. 66.167.145.54 13:42, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

To "Other languages" : "The French cognate nègre, however, commonly used during the colonial period, is similarly considered offensive, whereas noir (literally "black") is acceptable today" :

"noir" (adj. and subst., the latter preferentially with a majuscule : "un Noir," "des Noirs," "les Noirs," after "juif" (adj.)/"Juif" (subst.), "Jewish") is not "acceptable today," but the very neutral and objective word for designating black people.

Interestingly enough, in today's France the politically correct "opposite" of "un Noir" is not "un Blanc" (which is considered a racist/supremacist term), but "un Européen".

Young white people (under 35) may prefer to say "un Black," "des Blacks," "les Blacks," especially when addressing Black people, which is meant to convey sympathy and lack of/opposition to racism/discrimination, as a mark of appraisal for Black(-American) people's contribution to there own culture, especially in music and dance.

As it is often the case when people try to use an "alternative" word, it may betray precisely some kind of embarrassment/prejudice (compare with old-fashioned "les israélites" for "les juifs," the latter perceived as derogatory).

Black militants themselves prefer to say "les Noirs," and in a few (historical) cases "nous, les nègres," but always provocatively, in order to embarrass white people when addressing them.

mandarin Chinese

does anyone want to add the coincidental mandarin Chinese particle phrase "那个" (pinyin:nàge or nèige) meaning "that (one)" or "that (thing)" but also very commonly and repetitively used as a speech disfluency, just like "ummm..." or "uhhh..." are used in English?

the mandarin equivalent of nigger is "黑鬼" hēiguǐ or "black devil"

see also: http://www.cnd.org/my/modules/wfsection/article.php%3Farticleid=15171

ooooh that explains a lot; I've heard it used many times when listening to Chinese people speak, in Singapore and here, and I've always wondered what it meant. Thanks for clearing that up for me Totalirrelevance 10:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Slow down people, there is simply no Chinese equivalent to nigger that I know of. whoever says heigl = nigger has lost their mind, same with nàge or nèige. Please folks. --Sleet123 07:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

fine, it's not an "equivalent", but more of an "analogue"? hēiguǐ is how "nigger" is usually translated in news and literature.

Please, just stop. Stop. There are tons of homophones that sound alike in different languages. I'm glad you found another one. Neither heigui and neige should be included in this entry. please stop.--Sleet123 07:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

mandarin chinese however, is spoken by a larger number of native speakers than any other language, which i would argue puts it in a different position. that, combined with the fact that the phrase is used very commonly in everyday speech, should at least make its mention in the article worthy of consideration, if only for the sake of avoiding (often emotionallyl charged) misunderstandings - many of which are documented and verifiable, as per the article i cited.

and i'm not saying nàge or nèige mean "nigger" either, but that they approach near-homophone status, especially in everyday speech, which can lead to confusion and/or mistaken offense (see article linked above)

This term is definitely used in China. I had a recent discussion with an expert from that region who learned about the saying (not sure if it is this one exactly) from Chinese - loosely translated to mean "the ugliness of 1000 white people is not equivalent to the ugliness of one black person." He is fluent in Chinese. He happens to be black and wore a t-shirt with this expression when he worked in China. He mentioned that people there seemed to be a bit apologetic/or embarrased. An native Chinese, who was sitting at the table, confirmed this racism and reference to anything dark (black) exists in asian culture too. She also referenced the Japanese (white) and the social structure- how they consider themselves superior to others asians(darker). The exception seems to be those of European descent(white). This was a very frank and interesting discussion of racism. It generally stems from ignorance. The young lady expressed her surprise that the white men that she works with expected her to be very timid. She is the opposite- intelligent and assertive. Boy, were they surprised. I'd like to know if anyone has any more information on this...especially that expression... I found it to be interesting.

Dictionary source

If this article is going to use a dictionary source, it ought to use the Oxford English Dictionary. This would give a much more reputable definition than Webster's and would also give the accepted etymological origins of the word. A copy of this text can be found at almost any university library and also online if the library is a subscriber.

[moved section to the bottom] Feel free to do so, I can't imagine anyone would object. -Elmer Clark 05:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I have corrected the etymologies of 'niggardly' and 'niggle' per the OED entries. The statement that 'nigger' may be derived from 'nigra' is also incorrect, given the broad disparity in dates -- there is no evidence that 'nigra' was used much before the late 19th c (the OED's earliest cite is from 1905), whereas 'nigger' goes back to the 16th. I have eliminated this point as well. Htooke 00:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Unprotect this article Request

Black people don't call each other "niggers" like it is stating in the heading. It's not common anyway for normal black people like my self to call my black friends "Hey, nigger!". The word being described in the top of this article is "nigga" and shouldn't be up there at the top. Also, nigger isn't a slur term for dark-skinned people. It's a inappropriate slur term to refer to black people made up by caucasians. There is so much wrong with the heading which should be the most correct part of the article because it's the first thing people see when they open this page. I say, make the couple corrections and protect this page forever because people will keep vandalizing it as it's pretty much in a vandalized form right now and protected so we can't do anything about it Lonelyboy 07:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Reading this article and related ones, people are left with the impression that blacks go around calling one another "nigger" or "nigga" or any other variation, which is of course not true. I heardly if ever hear the word because most people know better. If used at all, it's more often used by young people who don't.

Also, people REALLY need to understand that the use of the word by a black person toward another is more often NOT positive and can hurt or demean as much if not more so than from a white person. It's a result of centuries of slavery and demeaning subjugation after Reconstruction in the Jim Crow South, where blacks have often been their own worst enemy, reminding one another of "their place". I don't think people understand that. Darnold01 22:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Shaddup. Nigga is not meant to be racially offensive from one black person to another. Not on a sub-atomic level or any other level. Only to certain older black people who still feel the need to show out and tap-dance for white people.66.167.145.54 13:50, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

First, I'd like to see you make me "shaddup", whatever that means. Second, for you to say "nigga is not meant to be racially offensive from one black person to another" proves that either you're not black or just ignorant of the word and of both it's historical and contemporary use -- even among blacks. Fact is, and like Lonelyboy noted from his own experience, it's more often than not used in very negative connotation among blacks. If you ever see two blacks fighting, for example, you'll likely hear the word used, and it's not meant to be positive at all. Darnold01 14:21, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I've heard the word niggers, not niggas being used by black people to describe a group of black people they know. And kind of often to. 75.33.58.115 16:32, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

LOL at Darnold01 pretending to be black. You obviously have no ties to any real black community. Not that you'd need to be to know how full of shit you are. "Nigga" is an all purpose noun. You can say it when you're happy, you can say it when you're angry. If you actually interacted with black people you'd know this. 68.166.64.224 08:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

It may be of relavance, but "Nigger" and "Nigga" sound largely the same to a lot of people, just one sounds like it is a mispronounced version of the other, if someone said "Cunt" with an accent or slightly corrupt pronunceation, would it be any less offensive? MattUK 19:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

This is not the place for discussing opinion of the meaning or appropriateness of the word. Please read WP:TALK. If you have a reliable source that confounds what is in the article, then please provide it, but an argument from personal experience is not uselful. Thank you. Rockpocket 19:14, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Efforts to Ban

Someone needs to write about popular efforts to ban the word (i.e. by Rev. Al Sharpton or Rev. Jesse Jackson). Also there needs to be information about how some people are proponents of the word and how it relates to free speech.

The popular culture section seems a bit long as well. 129.7.254.33 17:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Added Nigger Terms

"Ice Nigger" should be added to the list as it's commonly used to refer to Inuit and other Northern natives.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Kogen (talk • contribs)

[moved to bottom] Could you provide some kind of citation that this term exists and is notable? I sure haven't heard it... -Elmer Clark 07:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

After Rice Nigger it says Oriental it should say East/Southeast Asian.

But that is what Oriental means? -Elmer Clark 16:36, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

"Oriental" is apparently considered a disrespectful descriptor for East and Southeast Asians. I've heard it said that, "Orientals are rugs; Asians are people". I don't personally understand it. -GTBacchus^(talk) 17:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I ate and enjoyed a candy as a child called "nigger babies".(1958) Nigger babies were small penny candies, licorice, in the the shape of an infant. They were tasty. I don't suppose they are available now. My father used to bite the heads off and laugh.

There is also an expresion, "Raining pitchforks and nigger babies" as for raining very hard, noone has allude to on this site.

Description of "African American"

"Black was generally the preferred term from the late 1960s until the 1990s, but has now been displaced in politically correct usage by African American, which resembles the term Afro-American that was in vogue in the early 1970s. However, black continues in widespread popular use as a racial designation and is rarely regarded as offensive."

This paragraph really needs to be clarified, as the term "African American" clearly doesn't refer to all black people in the world, only those who happen to be American!

In fact, the unthinking substitution of "African American" for "black" has led to a number of journalistic balls-ups, such as Nelson Mandela being referred to as "African American", etc. Perhaps that could be mentioned in the article too? 217.155.20.163 21:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

See discussion "African-American" further up the page. --Mike Infinitum 01:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

African-american is worse, I mean not all black people are from Africa or identify as such. I don't assume from the color of somebody's skin they are from Africa. Plus no black people call each other African-americans, they call each other niggas. Anyways I never heard of any African-canadians or anything like that. People should think about what somebody means when the use a word instead of what word they use. I mean they call Dave Chappelle an "African-American comedian". Why can't he just be a "comedian"? Are there different awards for white and black comedians? I never saw an article mention "white comedian George Carlin". Its easier to change the words you use than stop being a racist.

African-american is the code word you use when you are running for governor of Alabama and you want all the racists to vote for you. 12.41.40.20 20:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Black Americans use both terms interchangeably. They're both acceptable, so what are you complaining about? Go to the African American discussion page. This discussion page is about the word nigger. Oh, by the way, people in the US still see race and ethnicity. Racism will never go away in America, unfortunately.24.185.49.151 23:05, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The whole point of my original comment (posted as 217.155.20.163 above) was that the terms "African American" and "black" are absolutely not interchangeable. Freely interchanging the terms has in the past led to ridiculous mistakes, such as Nelson Mandela being described as African American. My comment was made in reference to a specific paragraph in the "nigger" article, which is quoted above.

Point 1: most blacks worldwide are not African Americans, so it is patently absurd to use the term "African American" as a term for black people in general. Fortunately, few people make this fundamental error, but some do.

Point 2: most blacks living in the USA are African Americans, but a small minority are not, so strictly speaking, the term "African American" should not be used as a blanket term for black people living in the USA.

Point 3: Many African Americans would not be considered black by conventional standards (e.g. Mariah Carey, Vin Diesel, Randy Savage) - this is yet another reason not to use "black" and "African American" interchangeably. 217.34.39.123 14:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with all the above points. "African-American" is clearly an erroneous term for use in a multi-national encyclopaedia for any people other than, specifically, American citizens with African ancestry. This clearly doesn't apply to the vast majority of the world's black population, and as rightly pointed out, a significant number of "African-American" people are of course white. Replacing the term "black" with "African-American" in politically correct circles in the USA is actually a very politically (and ethnically) incorrect thing to do, and demonstrates how muddled the thinking of proponents of politically correctness often are. - 82.153.103.27 20:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Why it is bad

I mean of all the things the slave owners called the slaves, nigger was probably the nicest. This article doesn't answer the question. I mean historically the reason you are not supposed to use this word is because when the North won the Civil War the war-winning white people in the North decided that only war-losing white people in the South would use this word, so it meant you were a war-loser. Nothing to do with black people, just a word that only uneducated white war-losing farmers use.

Michael Richards did not only make a horrifically racist statement when he used the word--more ominously he also asserted that he is willing to go to war with the United States to defend those perverse views.

It is significant that this word is associated with breaking the Union. It came to mean you hate the Union if you use this word; it was the most unpatriotic word in the lexicon. It became the linguistic equivalent of burning a flag. Because it reminds people that the United States is not invincible it is effectively banned.

The African American Registry states "Nigger is the ultimate expression of white racism and white superiority no matter how it is pronounced." In reality it is the ultimate expression of disrespect for the United States, its structures of authority, the police (who incidentally wear Union blue).12.41.40.20 21:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Obviously the current implications associated with the word have little to do with its origin. In our modern society, the word "nigger" is a highly offensive racial slur. It has no longer has anything to do with disrespect for the United States or sedition agaisnt the government. Incidentally, not all police wear blue uniforms. Khaki, brown, and even gray are popular colors as well. Applejuicefool 18:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Should we include a picture?

This article is locked but lacks a graphic. This may offend people, but if the face of the black person is not shown, it will not call out any individual. Since this term is very hurtful, the skin color alone could be used to demonstrate the basis of this epithet.

[moved to bottom] Certainly not, I assume this is a joke, but it brings up a reasonable point - there's gotta be some kind of image that would be appropriate for this article. Nothing's really coming to my mind though... -Elmer Clark 13:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps some nineteenth-century (or later) cartoon with the word in the caption? This would show the word in context without depicting any particular individual. garik 16:37, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Not sure what image we could use - as the article refers, the term "nigger" originated from a European (mainly English) term for all non-white foreigners, and was applied to people of the middle east and asia as well as those from africa. --Mike Infinitum 01:23, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Only a white person would put this in here.

What? A white person or....? someone else not white who is also not black? It's a bit racist to suggest only a "white" person would put this here don't you think? Hmmm? Think about it.(82.40.177.159 07:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

I most definately think that this was a joke. No picture please! (82.40.177.159 07:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

I know a lot of blacks, African-Americans or whatever. But I know of no "niggers" or what one would even look like. I just know that I would take offense to anyone posting my picture in this article, that of my friends, my ancestors, their ancestors or any caricature of the aforementioned. I've never seen a "nigger". That said, what picture would you use? Darnold01 23:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest Oprah Winfrey, Obama or Jessie Jackson as perfect examples. Also Al Sharpton. Also Kingfish. Also Muhammed Ali. Also Clarence Page.Step n Fetchit would do. And Shirley Chisolm would be perfect. Also Marion Berry. And Adam Clayton Powell. Come to think of it, there is Idi Amin, Uncle Ben, Aunt Jemima, little black sambo, Jerry Hammond (mayor of Columbus Ohio). Nat King Cole. Sammy Davis Jr. Michael Jackson. O.J. O.J's lawyer.Emmit Till. Rosa Parks. Condy Rice. Martin King. Really, you could put a photo-montage of all these people and get a good idea for who is meant by the N word. I forgot Rochester. I really liked Rochester. But whether we like them or not has nothing to do with what they are. It is just a fact. We all just ignore the fact and do not allude to it in civil company or public. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.49.15.190 (talk • contribs)

I say we go with a picture of Carlton or Urkel....seriously this doesn't need a picture, but then again people feel the need to include grapic images of feces and genitals on their related articles and just quote the wikipedia is not censored for minors policy to justify it, so why not here? Personally I don't think any of that garbage needs to be on Wikipedia.--E tac 08:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I think this section's all getting a bit silly. As I said above, I think that if we have any image at all, we should have some sort of nineteenth century cartoon that uses the word in the caption — it would at least show the word in context (or one of its contexts). Or maybe we could have a picture of the cover of The Nigger of the 'Narcissus' . I have no idea if any of the suggestions for photographs of real people are serious, but they're clearly a bad idea. Let's have some constructive suggestions or just consign this topic to the dustbin. garik 10:49, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

We have a picture of Agatha Christie's book Ten Little Niggers that could be used: Image:Ten_Little_Niggers.jpg. But I don't think this article really needs an image. --Zundark 12:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

No, it doesn't really — though I see no reason not to include a picture of that or some other book. At least pictures brighten articles up, if nothing else. garik 12:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I added the Agatha Christie book cover image into the Literary uses section, since the article text refers to the book title.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 14:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, E tac, we all know what feces and genitals look like, so there's no controversy. But what does a nigger look like? It really is mute point, because there's no way Wikipedia would allow the picture of any person (or example of an entire race of people) to be used. If they did, that whole controversy about John Seigenthaler's article would pale in significance to the flack they'd get in the media about the dumb and ignorant people here posting a picture of a 'nigger'. For their own legitimacy as an authoritative encyclopedia, Wikipedia would not let that happen.

Trust me, folks, if you post a picture of any black person as your example of a 'nigger', there would be hell to pay. Only the ignorant don't know or understand how offensive that would be. Darnold01 02:16, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Hell to pay? Really? I doubt it. At the most, such an addition would be quickly reverted. That's usually how things work around here.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 11:16, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, 'Hell to pay.' I highly doubt you even know who John Seigenthaler is anyway. Darnold01 00:51, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

No, you're overstating things, and I find your presumptive condescension obnoxious. The Seigenthaler-Kennedy thing centered around the defamation of a living person that survived for days unnoticed. Random, blatantly racist guff (of the sort we're discussing) gets added to articles every day and is calmly and rapidly addressed without much harm or consequence. More subtle vandalism is more damaging.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 12:52, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

If you find my "presumptive condescension obnoxious", then maybe you earned it. For one, you're not reading (or can't). What I said before your pointless interjection: "For their own legitimacy as an authoritative encyclopedia, Wikipedia would not let that happen." I don't need your lecture on what Wikipedia would or would not do. BUT if for any reason a picture was allowed to be posted in an article about 'niggers' (as people here are arguing it should), then there would be "hell to pay", as there should be.

In the future, if for whatever reason you find anything I say "obnoxious", then do something about it. Yeah, I'd really like to see that. Darnold01 19:46, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Your shrill, intemperate (and naïve-sounding) expressions of incivility reflect poorly on you as an editor. More importantly, you're just wrong. People have added inappropriate visual aids to this and numerous other articles many times. Observe the following. What happened? Was there "hell to pay?" Was the editor even blocked? Did it cause a media frenzy? Nope. The silly edit was reverted, like so many other silly edits, and the editor was appropriately warned. You're getting worked up over nothing; the only time such vandalism might cause a stir would be if no one noticed it, which, in a high-traffic article like this, would be a near impossibility. Lastly, though I only mention this because you seem to take pleasure in questioning the literacy level of your fellow editors, you should probably know the phrase you were groping for earlier is "moot point," not "mute point." Consider the beam in thine own eye, as the saying goes. Kisses, --The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 02:05, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm "getting worked up over nothing"?! Well, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black! Take a look at your little tirade over something you yourself claim is "silly".

Eitherway, and as I previously stated, "IF for any reason a picture was allowed to be posted in an article about 'niggers' (as people here are arguing it should), then there would be "hell to pay", as there should be." Point being, any discussion either for or against is 'mute' (Yeah, I said it. What are you gonna do?) since I myself said, "For their own legitimacy as an authoritative encyclopedia, Wikipedia would not let that happen." Can you not read? Darnold01 02:45, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Btw, The Fat Man Who Never Came Back, I see that despite the controversy and opposition by editors other than myself, you've just taken it upon yourself to not only post a picture of a 'nigger' but 'ten of them' in the guise of popular literature (Agatha's Christie's 'Ten Little Niggers'). You've proven that not only are you not black, but incapable of appreciating the offense. I don't think you're intentionally intolerant, though, but certainly unintentionally ignorant. Wikipedia, their editors and readers would never tolerate the picture of 'honkies' or 'crackers'. Watch for yourself and see how long that photo of 'niggers' is going to last. I swear, I won't do anything but watch. And hopefully, you'll learn something in the process. Darnold01 04:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, no one opposed the inclusion Agatha Christie bookcover. It's a valid and most relevant historical image, and the context under which I added the image (Literary uses) is appropriate.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 04:07, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Bro, you only posted it a few hours ago. Give it time. You'll see the error of your ways. Darnold01 04:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Three days ago, actually. It was completely uncontroversial.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 05:08, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this is obvious. Before this just turns into a feeding centre for trolls, I suggest we close this discussion here. garik 09:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I just think it is ridiculous that there is a double standard going on here. We don't need users uploading naked pictures of themselves or of their poop onto wikipedia either, yet the last time I saw those articles they were there. If wikipedia doesn't want to potentially be unnecisarily offensive it shoild apply to all articles not just ones about racial slurs.--E tac 11:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

If Wikipedia accepted the posting of a picture of a white person in articles for 'cracker' or 'honky', then you'd have a point, E tac. As is, you don't have a point making an analogy between a HIGHLY insulting racial slur and 'crap' and 'genitalia'. And I agree this discussion should be closed. It's pointless posting a picture of a 'nigger' (assuming anyone here KNOWS what one looks like) or even trying to justify it with POV "double-standards" and analogies. Darnold01 00:51, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Although I suspect the origin of this question was intended to be mischievous, provocative or even deliberately offensive, it has actually resulted in a useful outcome as I think it is important to illustrate the use of the word "nigger" (as done now by including a picture of the original title of Agatha Christie's novel) as this serves several valuable purposes: 1) to show factually how the term used to be publically used, 2) to provide historical context, and 3) to show that it was formerly considered a legitimate word in many cases and, as the article describes, was often used with no intention or desire to give offence. Given how loaded and "taboo" this word is today, these are important factors to enable anyone with a serious interest in the subject to get a more balanced view, and 4) to counter the revisionist approach to history which "whitewashes" (pardon the pun?) historical writing and context for today's audience and therefore gives a distorted view of the past. - 82.152.178.86 01:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

If you're indeed so sure of your opinions, then please login and sign them.

My own parents, grandparents and other relatives from rural Louisiana say and have said that in their own youths, to address someone or be addressed as "nigger" was just as offensive then (1920's, 30's 40's and 50's), if not more so, than it is now. After all, there's a reason why the US Army, for example, never had "nigger" soldiers or "nigger" units. "Negro", yes. But never "nigger". "Niggers" ever addressed in the US Constitution? In Congressional laws? In any federal judicial decisions? If so, it would be hard to find because "nigger" has always been a less than appropriate term. The only "revisionism" or "whitewashing" going on here is the suggestion that addressing anyone as "nigger" was once somehow widely accepted. It wasn't. Speaking to my own elderly relatives, I know it wasn't.

Being widely used, however, is different from being widely accepted. Yes, "nigger" was widely used in the past -- from casual conversation to literature. But that doesn't automatically lead to the conclusion that its use was either widely accepted or acceptable, particularly by blacks. And though individuals within the bureaucracy or military may have (as they surely still do), the US government has never referred to blacks as "niggers", further dispelling this myth of historical "legitimacy". Darnold01 06:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Once again, replies such as the above to my previous point illustrate the frequent inability of people to get to grips with a sensitive subject such as this in a balanced way. Firstly, "If you're indeed so sure of your opinions, then please login and sign them" - well contrary to what your personal view may be, there is no requirement to "login and sign" on Wikipedia in order to be allowed to express a view. (One of the reasons why I did *not* login and sign with my regular WP username is precisely because it is virtually impossible to engage in a reasonable discussion on a potentially volatile subject without it attracting flaming or hysterical or distorted responses, and leading others to label you - an irony given subjects like this are themselves about prejudice and stereotyping!)

To cover the specific points - nowhere did I say that addressing a specific individual with the term was acceptable, nor did I ever use the expression "widely accepted". My point was that there are collective terms that are used at certain periods of time, often without intention to cause offence, but which, with the passage of time, are later viewed as far more taboo or offensive than in previous times ("cripple" and "spastic" are a couple of similar terms that spring to mind - the principle is not limited to racial epithets).

By "legitimate word", I meant one that was acceptable to use in speech without drawing censure, horror or broad negative reaction simply for uttering it. Words can be sensitive, of limited use, or even offensive in some contexts, yet still be "legitimate" - (today one might think of a word such as "p(a)edophile" as a modern example). Thus, illustrating how the word "nigger" was formerly used (for example in a book title) shows that at certain times in the past it was a "legitimate" word, in a way in which it is not now.

Lastly, we may have a difference in national history here too, and this needs to be borne in mind with sensitive topics also. I am writing as a Briton and from a British historical perspective. Clearly, you are writing from an American viewpoint. So there may be differences in how the word was both used and interpreted in the early 20th C between the two countries which has caused some misunderstanding here. Certainly, the UK had much less direct and blatant racism in its 20th C history (not saying it never existed, but we never had things such as segregated schools and buses, etc) therefore the polarisation and alienation was less acute, and thus the impact of phrases like "nigger" on the black population was less realised by the native white population until recent decades. Therefore, such a term probably remained in more general use for longer here than in the USA (hence situations like the labrador's name in The Dambusters (1954), and the Agatha Christie novel (1939) - presumably neither of these uses of the word could have been possible in their time in the USA).

Thus the problem I have with what I called the revisionism, is that removing altogether any evidence of such uses distorts history for both black and white people (schoolkids of today for example) and actually creates a wrong view of realities back then, which should be shown "warts and all" to have real meaning. That then opens up the chance for proper dialogue about differences - both racial, and also historical/cultural, and also about differences in perceptions, sensitivities and so on. Trying to airbrush out evidence of past things is IMO more worrying than risking offense by reflecting truth about the past. - 82.153.102.31 00:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I see there has been "revisionism" in your opinion since first writing: "Given how loaded and "taboo" this word is today..." Fact is, the word has always been "loaded" and in many instances "taboo". Being addressed or addressing someone as "nigger" may have been "accepted" or "acceptable" at one time in Britain (where you live), but I've already noted from first hand account from older relatives in rural Louisiana that it never was "accepted" or "acceptable". Again, there's a difference between wide "use" and wide "acceptance". And again, aside from individuals from within expressing themselves, the US government, for example, has never used the word "nigger" to describe blacks or anyone else. Why not if "nigger" was indeed so "acceptable" or if there was a "whitewashing" of history? My point: speaking to your comments of "acceptance", before being "revised", there's no "revisionism" of history here.

And speaking to your "revised" comments, just because my opinion about a topic may be different from yours doesn't mean I'm incapable of getting a grip "with a sensitive subject such as this in a balanced way". After all, as apparent, it may be you who needs "to get to grips". Darnold01 16:32, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

To make clear, I'm all for the inclusion of this article and others like it in Wikipedia (though I think pictures of "niggers", "honkys", "crackers", etc is questionable). The articles work to educate readers in all aspects of their respective topics. That is, as long as the information included is correct -- from both a contemporary and historical perspective. I take issue with people saying or suggesting that the use of "nigger" is being "revised", that it was once more "accepted" than it is now, and that historical "acceptance" should be reflected in the article. Though it may be correct for Britain (I wouldn't know first hand), it certainly isn't for rural Louisiana. Darnold01 17:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

negro-cabesita negra

In Argentina the spanish word "negro" or "cabecita negra" (black little head, by black hairhead) is refered to people mestizo or only with an only slightly darker appearance than those Europe descent. The use is derogative. 212.97.181.220 22:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Addition to "Non-Human Uses"?

Does it make sense to add (either to the second paragraph or as a third paragraph) something along the lines of:

The more recent expression, "Afro - Engineering" may have been created as a response to the political correctness (Cultural Marxism) movement while attempting to preserve the original derogatory context of "Nigger - Rigging".

?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.9.32.49 (talk) 00:04, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

Opening Sentence

For some reason I can't edit the article to add a 'this opening is too short' template but could someone do it for me? Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.132.108.195 (talk) 18:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC).

Die Hard

It says that the text is edited on "television", but it should be made clear that this is only on certain stations. Any station that doesn't censor (cable stations) do no such thing. Most stations that do censor either edit in a way to avoid showing the sign or simply mosaic it out. 66.167.145.54 12:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

This is an Example of a Nigger

Why is there a picture of a black person headlined "This is an example of a nigger"? The definition tells it all, why do we need a picture "explaining" what a nigger is?

It was vandalism, and was reverted in four minutes. You just happened to catch the article at the wrong moment. -Elmer Clark 05:01, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Joseph Conrads use of the Term Nigger

I disagree with the line in Etymology and history where it states that "In the United States, the word nigger was not always considered derogatory, but was used by some as merely denotative of black, as it was in other parts of the English-speaking world. In nineteenth-century literature, there are many uses of the word nigger with no intended negative connotation. Charles Dickens, and Joseph Conrad (who published The Nigger of the 'Narcissus' in 1897) used the word without racist intent."

Joseph Conrad it has been argued by academics for a number of years, had racist undertones in a number of his books. This was most notable opined by Chinua Achebe [2]. --Woodyteegra 01:34, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Though bear in mind that even if there were racist undertones to his work, this doesn't necessarily mean that his use of the word nigger was racist per se. garik 13:02, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

In the name of all that's holy! Why is this article so long? Looks like some people really warmed to this topic. I wonder why that is...--Art8641 21:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC) Nigger is a very popular word even in the american culture altough,as the article says,it is rarely used.I dont think we can complain about an article that it is too long.

As a black man, I find the N word to be offensive. What I don't understand is why are some black folks having this idea that it can be acceptable. I've heard the arguments for its use. One argument that is really ignorant and retarded is the pronunciation of the suffix. Instead of saying nigger, it could be pronounced "nigga", as a so-called term of endearment. To all the people out there, there is no difference. The only thing these morons are doing is mispronouncing and furthering the word's existence. They're not being creative, they're being stupid. There is no difference between bigger and "bigga", danger and "danga" and taller and "talla". They're mispronounced words. It seems to me that we are the only people on Earth that call each other this word. You don't hear Jews calling each other kike or Hispanics calling each other spic. I find this very sad and ignorant. Some of the current generation of blacks, sorry to say, is stupid and I'm black and part of the current generation. Thank God some or a lot of us are not that ignorant. I would imagine all the heroes and heroines of the American Civil Rights Movement are rolling in their graves right now. It doesn't matter what anybody does. That word was, is and forever will be racist. It's not a term of endearment. The history will always be there. I feel sorry for those who want to deny our history. Fclass 17:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The word Negroid cannot be avoided

The word nigger is related to the old anthropological classification of Negroid. There's no way to define the word Nigger without using the word negroid.

This article begins by saying that "Nigger is a racial slur used to refer to dark-skinned people, especially those of African ancestry.".

This is an attempt to avoid using the word negroid, but it fails on the grounds that Egyptians are relatively dark skinned, of African descent and NOT especially likely to be called niggers.

Negroids are especially likely to be called niggers. Negroids ARE of African descent and ARE dark skinned (though a light skinned person with negroid looking features would still be called a nigger), but not all people from the African continent with dark skin are likely to be called niggers (see North African examples).

Negroid may be an outdated classification to many anthropologists but the word Nigger harks back to a time when the word was in commmon use and is a synonym for it. It must be included. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.253.75.243 (talk) 23:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC).

Making 'Nigger' Illegal

Is anyone else appaled by the movement (I can't remember the name) to make it illegal to say the word "nigger." I honestly think that making at least ONE word illegal would completely destroy Freedom of Speech, regardless of how the word is used. Anyone else?

I'm sure many people would be appalled if there ever were such a movement in the United States—at least if the movement received significant attention and support. But I don't see any proof that this happened and indeed I am dubious that it did. Any references? Phiwum 10:20, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Not only would it curb freedom of speech, it would also mean loss of sociolinguistically relevant information.[3] --80.149.16.69 16:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

It happened in a small southern town, didn't take, brought protest from white and black and failed horribly. They are trying to make it nationally illegal.156.34.158.176

Right. I did not ask for more dubious claims. I asked for evidence that anything like this has ever happened. So, what's the name of the town? What is your source? Who are "they" that are trying to make it illegal nationally and how are they doing this? Oh, and what is your source? Much thanks. Phiwum 01:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

What if we just stay to the use of latin an verbalized niger people... so you lose a g... yet you show you knowledge of the latin root for people that wish to be known as black? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.251.19.119 (talk • contribs)

Huh? garik 19:00, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Does This Even Belong In An Encylopedia?

It seems to me that this is a purely Wikionary type term, and the general consensus is that these terms belong as such. Any thoughts on this? Padishah5000 16:13, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The very controversy surrounding this word, as well as its status as the forbidden word in the land of freedom of speech, makes it notable in an encyclopedic sense. Applejuicefool 13:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, it just seems strange to me that articles for "raghead" and "gook" get deleted, but not nigger and kike. Padishah5000 22:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)\

Not every racial epithet carries the social and historical weight that nigger does. In my limited experience, "gook" has some historical significance, but it's pretty narrowly limited to the Vietnam War; "raghead", although pejorative, carries no special social or historical undertones. Applejuicefool 13:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I see your point that the term "Nigger" does carry a historical weight to it. Raghead, in the current time, does carry social undertone, at least comparable to the term "gook" in the Vietnam area. To say otherwise, probably means you have never had the term slung at you. Padishah5000 15:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, we've never had an article on "gook", it's always been a redirect to List of ethnic slurs. The "raghead" article had nothing beyond a dictionary definition, so it was moved to Wiktionary, wikt:raghead. -Will Beback · † · 21:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, now that you mention it, perhaps I should write two articles, one on raghead, and one on gook, that go into great detail, such as the articles on kike and nigger. Padishah5000 16:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

If you can find enough sources to write someting useful then go ahead. -Will Beback · † · 18:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, thank you, thank you! With your permission and blessing, allowing myself to make such a pious attempt at authorship, I will try with all my heart. My only wish is to not let you down, as an offense towards yourself can be seen as an offense to the Gods... Padishah5000 18:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

There's really no need for the sarcasm. Will's comment was appropriate. The word "nigger" is much-discussed and there is a wealth of information about it. The words "gook" and "raghead" have been much more neglected for various social and historical reasons and there is a real question whether these terms would generate enough content for an encyclopedia article. Phiwum 18:48, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Smile, its not the end of the world, Jesse! WP:FUN

Nigger:word usage

the word "nigger" cannot be used without insulting someone. please full protect it if not delete it. Deep Impact 10:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but there are a lot of words that cannot be used without insulting someone. "Taiwan", "the Holocaust", and "cunt" come to mind. This is not a valid objection. Please see Wikipedia:Content_disclaimer. --Ashenai 10:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Meaning of the word "nigger" and how to best make an entry in Wikipedia

{{Editprotected}} This word has a racially charged past, where it has been used for over 200 years as a spiteful and degrading insult to people of African descent (or more generally, dark skinned people). People can't suddenly decide to change its spelling or pronounciation (something that happened in the last 20 years or so), and then suddenly wave a "magic wand" and pretend that everything is ok. Unfortunately, history dosen't work like that - and life isn't that simple. This is a problematic word that is likely to stir strong emotions in anyone it is directed at, ONCE they know the FULL history of the word nigger. If this word has to be included as an entry in Wikipedia (which I believe it does), then we need to make sure that the full definition of the word (not merely modern day revisionist attempts) of the word is displayed in all its gory details - warts and all.

To this end, (as appalling as it may first seem), it would be a good idea if a picture was included in the description. This may be stating the obvious, but I'll state it all the same, just to make sure - under no circumstance should the picture display an actual black person (apart from the charred body I mention below - even in that instance, the face should be blurred to preserve the victim's dignity). If a picture of an actual black person is included, the entry moves from being an objective definition to racist propaganda. The ideal picture would be that of a racist cartoon/caricature showing the exagerated lips and nose, "coon eyes", slopen forehead and the caption "Depiction of a nigger". Alternatively, it may show the stiff, lifeless, charred remains of a lynched body (with face blurred to preserve the victim's dignity) - with a lynch mob chanting "Die, nigger, die" (there are lots of pictures like this from www.maffa.org) - incidentally, these pictures showing a lifeless lynched body - along with a cheering white lynch mob, were a popular form of "ghoulish" postcard in the early 20th century, in parts of America. It is no wonder this word evokes such strong emotions - since some of these events are still within living memory. As shocking as this proposal may seem, if we are to tackle this word, we need to tackle it correctly and fully, so that there is no ambiguity as to what the word has meant for the last 200 or so years. That way, there is a clear, unambigious (and universal) understanding as to what calling someone "a nigger" means. It would be totally irresponsible to use a "tame", "inoffensive" picture to describe what is to most decent people, an offensive word. Suggestions of the cover of Agartha Christies "10 little Niggers" are wholly inappropriate, as they do not relay the gravity and contempt that the word carried. Arguments that nigger was once a perfectly acceptable word to use are equally asinine in that they are telling the story from a very biased Eurocentric (or white persons POV), and are consequently deceitful - because they are not telling the whole story - warts and all.

The (modern) use of the word nigger may be loosely translated as "fellow oppressed" (in a marxist/socialist context, it is akin to saying "we the proletariat"), sometimes it also simply means "I'm not to be messed with" (as in bad assed nigger). The revisionist form, is an attempt to take the "sting" out of the word and to "reclaim" it. Nigga, Nigguh etc, are modern (i.e last 20 years or so) revisions/derivatives of the word, and an attempt to make it "cool". However, the appearance of these words occupy but a very short timespan in the history of the parent word (Nigger). Dont get me wrong, there have black people who have always used the word either because they felt powerless and simply accepted what (white) society imposed on them, or because of a kind of self hate (see article on internal oppresion). Regardless of how the new words are pronounced/spelt, the first thought that comes to mind (especially, to those who grew up in the west), is the word Nigger, because this is a meme that is still very well and alive in the western world. Consequently, any attempts to "reclaim" the word are misguided since two hundred years or so of meaning are not going to be changed by a couple of decades of "redifinition" - this is the social equivalent of shooting oneself in the foot.

"Nigger" as a word, is used in six ways :

1). As a term of endearment (which is misguided but this is a personal POV, so may be ignored) - typically used in informal greetings, sometimes used in rap music

2). A way of expressing of referring to oneself as "one who is not to be trifled with" - as in "bad assed nigger" - This is typically the way "nigger" is used in rap music

3). As a way of articulating "otherness", usually within a paternalistic/patronizing/contemptuous context - this is typically the way in which white people have used the word (e.g. Rudyard Kipling's "White mans burden", Hemmingway etc)

4). As a put down to remind someone of his "place" or his "past"

5). In a threatening way, jointly, to assert dominance and as a putdown - typical use in prisons, sometimes used in this way in rap music

6). in an outright hostile way, typically, before an assault (typical use in prisons/racist attacks)

Given the 6 ways in which the word nigger is used (bearing in mind the genesis and history of the word) and ongoing racism in the world, use cases 3 to 6 are automatically "off limits" to non-black people - because of black peoples 400 year history of oppression in the US - and can trigger a "disproportionate" response from a black person if directed to him from a non-black person (the "excessive" response may still not be tempered if even the remark is from another black person). It is obvious to see that use cases 2 when used by a black person, typically expresses a low self image (similar explanation as to why most gang members have a low self image). Use case 3-6 when used by a black person to another black person, is an expression of self hate, as the "offender" is in the same racial category as the one he attempts to dominate/humiliate.

This leaves only use case 1 as the "viable" option - since in its revisionist meaning, it is a term of endearment (i.e "fellow oppressed" / "we the proletariat"). However, when the person making the remark has no "perceivable" history of oppression especially when juxtaposed to the person the remark is aimed at (in history - whites have typically been the oppressors of black people), you end up in a situation where the remark can be seen at best, as patronizing or condescending, and at worst, being racist by "reminding" a black person of his "status" as an oppressed person, it can also be perceived as an attempt to "pull rank" on a black person - this is when "all hell breaks loose". The degree to which use case 1 is acceptable to some (mostly uneducated) black people is the degree to which they "perceive" that the person making the remark (either as an individual or their "race") has shared their experience of oppression. Since the oppresion in this context is based on skin color, there is a direct correlation between the darkness of the skin of the person making the remark, and its "acceptability" to the recipient. Generally, the fairer the skin of the person making the remark (when compared to the person the remark is aimed at), the more the remark is taken as a racist slur and the less room there is for tolerance. It must be noted though, that the vast majority of PROFESSIONAL and EDUCATED black people in the middle and upper middle classes of society, take strong exception to this word (and its modern day derivatives).

The problem however, with use case 1 is that it creates a "double standard" - in that black (or dark skinned) people are "allowed" to use the word, but lighter skinned and (especially white) people are accused of being racist when they use the word. In certain respects this is unavoidable since the word has strong racist overtones because of its genesis and history - and racism has always been about double standards (based on skin color), never about fairness - so it is perhaps unsuprising that a word with such strong racist overtones "inherits" the double standard inherit in racist thinking/slurs.

One way to analyse/attempt to understand the "unwritten rule" of who is "allowed" and who is "not allowed" to use the word nigger is to ask yourself the following questions:

Note: the word FAMILY is used as a proxy for "race"

(i) "Is it ok to make jokes/insensitive remarks about a person who is only just recovering from a serious FAMILY illness. Considering that the "family illness" has lasted for over 400 years"?

This question is especially pertinent IF your family (i.e. members of your ancestoral family) were the ones that infected the "sufferer"'s family with the illness many centuries ago and kept the infestation malignant for over 400 years, until only 40 years ago or so"

(ii) "Is it ok for said "sufferer" to make jokes/insensitive remarks about his own condition" ?

(iii) "Is it ok for you to make jokes/insensitive remarks about the "sufferers" condition simply BECAUSE the "sufferer" makes jokes/insensitive remarks about his own condition"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.130.208.224 (talk • contribs) 04:39, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

In its current form, your proposed addition reads like unverified original research. Can you provide reliable, third party sources to substantiate this material? --Muchness 05:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I haven't made a request for an entry in Wikipedia yet, so I don't know if I'm going about this the right way - if not, kindly advice me as to what the correct procedure is.

Regarding 3rd party references/documentation, please find below, a few. The list of Urls is not, by any means exhaustive - rather it represents alist of those I feel may be most relevant to the points made in my post. If there is anything more specific you want, please let me know.

Genesis and history of word + consensus views on the word

"The first written documentation of it in print form was in 1786. It was used by white slave masters to label their black slaves."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6407413.stm http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/tx/documentaries/nword.shtml http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3306739.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/931875.stm http://www.afrocentric.info/Nommo/NoNigg.html http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/504

Nigger Lynchings

http://www.pcusa.org/oga/perspectives/mayjune03/tulsa.htm http://www.georgetown.edu/users/mmm43/ffh.htm http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1989/1/89.01.09.x.html http://www.swagga.com/burn.htm http://www.maafa.org/show.html http://www.maafa.org/group.html http://www.maafa.org/lynch4.html http://www.maafa.org/lynch1.html http://www.maafa.org/lynch2.html http://media.www.lcmeridian.com/media/storage/paper806/news/2006/05/01/News/nigger.nigga.Or.Neither-1876412.shtml

entymology + use case examples

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/04.09.98/cover/nigger-9814.html

including this text:

The self-hatred of African Americans is even more succinctly apparent in this still-popular black ditty:

     Niggers and flies, I do despise
     The more I see niggers, the more I loves flies

ii). Bad ass Nigger/ Bad Nigger Use Case (Dinesh Dsouza): phttp://www.dineshdsouza.com/books/endracism-intro.html]

Who can say nigger? [4]

discourse of usage in hip hop

http://www.evilmonito.com/011/nba/nba.htm

I have removed the long use of heading-code because it was messing up the contents, and have deleted some superfluous empty lines to make things more clear :) SGGH ^speak! 21:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

use of nigger in racist murder

[5]

skin Color and "acceptance"

[6]

Slurs against other races

Why are slurs like "Honkey" "Cracker" "Beaner" "Wetback" "Spic" not as offencive as "Nigger"?

They are to those against whom they are directed. SGGH ^speak! 19:29, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

In general, no, they are not. I may be insulted as a Honkey or a Cracker, but I doubt that I would be as offended as an African-American called a nigger. The fact is that white Southerners have not been enslaved, have not endured the same kinds of legalized discriminations, in general, have not been made to feel ashamed of being white Southerners (at least not to the same degree of shame).

This is, in any case, my off-the-cuff reaction to the question and response. But these personal opinions don't have much to do with the article, do they? Phiwum 22:45, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Nigger being a racial slur isnt to do with slavery nor does the fact that other races allegedly havent had their ancestors enslaved make them less vulnerable to being slurred. To link ethnic slurs and slavery is the worst kind of politically correct thinking, SqueakBox 22:51, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, there is no reason for us to argue this point here, since it seems to have no obvious connection to the Wikipedia article. Thus, I won't bother to reply to your claim. Phiwum 23:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The word refers to lower-class blacks only

I think the introduction to the article should be modified say "Nigger is a pejorative term used to refer to low-class' dark-skinned people." In modern parlance, it is not a term that refers to all dark-skinned people. I have heard prominent black doctors, lawyers, and professors use the word nigger in conversation to refer to the really low-class members of their own race who have no job, no education, haven't pulled themselves up out of the ghetto, etc. If educated dark-skinned people use the word nigger freely (i.e. not ironically or colloquially) to refer to the really low-class blacks, then the word must not refer to all blacks. 24.80.117.217 01:22, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• You mean like in Chris Rock's famous differentiation between Niggers and Black people in Bring the Pain, ie that Niggers are essentially the Black equivalent of White trash (my interpretation)? That is not what most people who use that term mean. Anyway (in my opinion), if such prominent black doctors, lawyers, and professors exist - who use the word nigger in reference to those they deem to be "unequal" or "lesser" than themselves - then they need to be outed, sacked, tarred & feathered and forced to stand at Lincoln Memorial to publicly apologize. And Chris Rock too. --Ezeu 06:22, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

• 1. Chris Rock is a comedian. 2. The term is racist pejorative against all blacks when used by non blacks. 3. The term is a slightly less offensive but not racist (depending on who you ask) pejorative when used by blacks against blacks on a number of issues. 4. The term is one of endearment (depending on who you ask) between some blacks (and not just rappers - go watch Antoine Fisher). Also, I've got to say what gave you the idea that educated blacks use the term in that way. Quite honestly, educated blacks (especially older educated blacks) are less likley to use the term than anyone else. CJ 13:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

You would need to source this claim, SqueakBox 22:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd want to see some pretty substantial and reliable (hefty) sources to support this claim. DPeterson^talk 20:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

This particular point of view should definitely mentioned, but it is not appropriate to let it dominate the article. Per wikipedia policy, when a controversy exists, we report all sides of the controversy. There's people who think all black people are "niggers" and there's people who think the word "nigger" should never ever be used, as well as various and sundry positions in between. So the introduction has to accommodate all of them, with the specific viewpoints only discussed later in the article.

Eleland 20:32, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Mentioned yes, but putting it in the lead gives undue weight. I feel mention in some detail in a section further down the page is sufficient. But that's putting the cart before the horse. I think I listed out the four biggest viewpoints earlier. I doubt anything other than that is going to have truly independent, verifiable source material. It doesn't mean it's not true, just a difficult to document minority position. CJ 21:02, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment Removal re WP:FORUM

I pulled comments from this talk page re WP:FORUM. I caught them at the moment and I pulled them right then. That's not blanking, ask an admin. For the record, I agree with you, partially. But this isn't a forum. It's for improving the page. CJ 01:48, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

nigger

nigger. should nagger be there too? nigger.