Talk:New Apostolic Church

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Non-neutral content removed[edit]

I just removed the following from the main page, under the theology heading:

=== For a complete understanding of current New Apostolic Church theology click on the link below. ===

New Apostolic Church Chief Apostle Schneider Q&A On Current Church Doctrine'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm8vlvqRXQg

In minutes 48:21 - 49:45 of the video, Chief Apostle Schneider was asked:

“Can someone who has already been sealed by a New Apostolic Church Apostle attend another Christian Church and still become the Bride of Christ?”

The Chief Apostles answer: “No, that is not possible.”

This doctrine intentionally excludes ALL NON ATTENDING NAC Christians from becoming the Bride of Christ. It also intentionally excludes ALL NON NAC Christians (including our family and friends) from becoming the Bride of Christ and judging us and them to the tribulation.

Chief Apostle Schneider claims that ONLY attending members of the New Apostolic Church can be the Bride of Christ because Jesus needs his Apostle ministry to "prepare His Bride" and that any Christian that wants to be taken in the Rapture must be continually “prepared” by the New Apostolic Church Apostle ministry. Chief Apostle Schneider teaches in this video that if you are not being prepared by the New Apostolic Church Apostle ministry you cannot be the Bride of Christ.

This seems to me to be, to put it mildly, non-neutral. If it actually contains necessary information, it should be rewritten into something more encyclopedic in tone.DBowie (talk) 00:21, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled[edit]

Please see http://www.naki.de/_nak_eng/nak_lehre_e.htm for a more detailed translation the the doctrines of the new apostolic church.

Copyright Violation: - DeSinT 12:11, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

New_Apostolic_Church#Voluntary_Donations_and_Working_in_an_Honorary_Capacity
http://www.nak.org/text/7-gb.html
New_Apostolic_Church#The_New_Apostolic_Creed
http://www.nak.org/text/11-gb.html
New_Apostolic_Church#Individual_Pastoral_Care
http://www.nak.org/text/5-gb.html
New_Apostolic_Church#Decentralised_Structures_and_Duties_of_Ministries
http://www.nak.org/text/6-gb.html

NEW VERSION[edit]

Hi Everybody. I have worked on a completely new version of this article for a long time, which (as I hope) presents a vast improvement. The new version contains extremely many sources and new information, pictures, translations, internet links, impartial writing manner, and a lot of interesting details. Please help me and contribute to it! So we can improve it still further with a new article on the New Apostolic Church. I am not originally English, thus focus on the grammatical correctness.

Here you are - the link to it: Notice that I will replace the article on my own, if nobody has droped in within 1 week.--Jesuit222 (talk) 18:55, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gee, a week isn't very long considering how little input this article receives. But it looks OK to me. I will have to read it in detail. Regards KbbSchindos (talk) 01:36, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've read it. Considering a non-native speaker put this together- very well done. I may work on minor spelling, grammar, and odd words as time allows. Occasionally very subjective terms creep into the article, possibly from source material. Some areas are appear sympathetic, and the reduction of the number of schisms listed is a disservice in my opinion. It is a cult born of schism, that continually has schisms. Over 200 have been documented, perhaps you've seen that book? Also, I think you've had to translate much from source material, I don't think all of your sources exist in English. I'll add to our discussion as possible.

Thanks for your comments and help. At least one user has appeared! Well, I haven't reduced the numer of schisms, I only put everything about that in one section. What book do you mean? Isn't it quite of POV and also a bit cruel calling the NAC a cult? It's a Christian Church, which formed by a schism, that's right. Most churches and Christianity itself are schisms, so why do you call NAC a cult?
Sincerely; Regards
--Jesuit222 (talk) 20:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

KbbSchindos (talk) 02:03, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly I don't understand the tone of your dialogue, so I'll be blunt. 0) "free church" has little meaning here, no landeskirche ever existed, so while correct, I dare say the audience could misunderstand as "independent" churches, not sure why the article leads with this.

1) Schisms-van Oosbree/Slok Netherlands 1946 is not mentioned, also Rockenfelder mid '80s dropped. Compare earlier versions to yours.

2) Book - H.E. Winter- God knows ways in the desert (translated title)re: over 200 schisms.

3) Rather rude assumption - "cult" - not my words and I don't think even my contribution to the article, please take that word choice up with the appropriate French and Belgian commissions.

4) Article for readers in USA/CANADA (English audience) is not accurate, maybe true in Europe and elsewhere-

a) Ecumenism - no
b)Sharing buildings- generally no, and almost never for another denomination.
c)Finances- absolutely no reporting in the USA, Canada is to gov't legal min, this is NOT in the Our Family
d)Training and seminars (ministers) - very very rare, the Holy Spirit covers all.

5)General comments- a)CAC elements of liturgy- other than apostles, nothing that could be clearly attributed to the CAC remains, can you elucidate?

b)Apostle ministry and exclusivism- Temporary exclusivity is the term of the last five or so years. However, the NAC is very RC in being "the one true church of Christ" and essentially all the NAC Church Fathers would have everyone else going to hell, just like the RC Church Fathers. Modern spin by both groups ameliorate that pronouncement.
c) ACK membership - the individual NAC congregations are "guest members" in the ACK, and now number six (?) in total, but little regarding this is shared on any official NAC information channel . That and what does "guest membership" entail when such a rigid hierarchy exists and the NAC as a whole cannot join?

6)Other NAC beliefs and historical topics for you (or anyone else) to explore and then update this article-

a) The dead can sin;
b) Pre-marital sex isn't a sin (sometimes);
c) Abolition of the prophet ministry and then prophecy.

While your research and effort is appreciated, clearly much material comes from the official church magazines/website, which is very Euro-centric and paints a broad positive brush as if all regions are conducted similarly. Maybe readers in Germany could relate better as to if their church was being accurately described in this article. But the German Wikipedia article is locked still???

Please continue your hard work. KbbSchindos (talk) 02:31, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, if my tone appears rude; it was not my intention at all! Small question: Do you speak German? It seems to me like yes. Maybe we could discuss your lots ans lots of questions in German and then write in English herein. What do you think? regards.--Jesuit222 (talk) 18:36, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I don't speak (or read) German. I can easily be "found" at reference #65, specifically the list of rules, and perhaps we can exchange email even if I'm somewhat "handicapped". regards KbbSchindos (talk) 12:34, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This page is not written in an impartial manner.[edit]

Articles should be written in an impartial and scholarly manner, not as advertisement, propaganda, or recruitment vehicles.

POV tag added. The page sounds as if it were a listing from some sort of denominational handbook. Much of the information sounds good — although in an obviously sympathetic manner — but there are deeper problems with other bits, such as the reason for the split (at the bottom of the History section) and the thing about ministers being without training, just as in the original church. Nyttend 21:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article is read like a NAC marketing ad.--87.166.54.150 (talk) 07:41, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Accounting[edit]

removed: and no financial accountability or reporting to the members at all

see: http://www.nak-nl.org/data/resources/File/jaarcijfers_nak_2004.pdf (in Dutch) - DeSinT 23:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not true, that is only a for the church in the netherlands, further it is only a simplistic pie chart. Most other disticts refuse to open their books and give their members any financial account of their activities, nor does NAKI. 71.245.147.128 00:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I removed most of the material in this section as unsourced specualtion, and briefly rewrote the rest. I also added an "unreferenced" tag, because there are no sources cited at all. Doc Tropics 00:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. This is something that needs outside research first before it becomes encyclopedic. The lack of available info on this topic does not merit trying to make WP into a primary source. Enourage your local investigative reporter to delve into this issue. --Vees 21:13, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
According to the Dutch NAC website (3 January 2007) the German and Swiss church published their financial reports in the Unsere Familie of november (the official NAC magazine). (Publicatie financiële jaarcijfers 2005 - In navolging van de Nieuw-Apostolische Kerk in Duitsland en Zwitserland (zie het internationale kerktijdschrift Onze Familie, nr. 11, 2006), publiceert de Nieuw-Apostolische Kerk in Nederland haar financiële jaarcijfers van 2005. Klik voor de details hier - Annual report publication 2005 - Following the New Apostolic Church in Germany and Switzerland (see the international church magazine Onze Familie, number 11, 2006) the New Apostolic Church in the Netherlands publishes her annual report 2005. Click for details here) - DeSinT 00:09, 3 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The investigative reporter would not be able to prove that which does not exist, merely the lack of information. The regional churches (districts) report to the legal minimun on income from all sources and expenditures. In the UK, a report must be filed with the Charity Commision, in the USA, the Church is not required to file anything as a 503c, and nothing is available for members. Minimal state filings exist as the church operates as a corporation. FYI, the name is commonly just the initials (NAC). Would this be allowed - The NAC, while stating finances are derived from voluntary donations, provides no statistics beyond reporting to the legal minimum. In the United States, no legal minimum exists, therefore accounting for contributions, income from investments and disbursements is not available to the membership-at-large. - KbbSchindos 03:59, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Catholic Apostolic Church[edit]

" The main point of their gospel was the imminent return of Jesus Christ and spreading the sacrament of the Holy Sealing (to be compared with confirmation)" is not supported in either C. Grahams Flegg's "Gathered Under Apostles" or in G. Alan Mast's "The Eucharistic Service of the CAC and its Influence..." The CAC sought to hasten the return of Jesus Christ by returning the Church (universal) to a perfect form. Sealing was introduced later, in 1847, initially for ministers and was voluntary, and was to enliven one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, namely the gift of power. Compare with the NAC in which Holy Sealing is the third of three sacraments (along with Baptism and Communion), in which the Holy Spirit is dispensed by an Apostle and is required to partake in the return of Christ. This allusion to the CAC Holy Sealing and its purpose, and therefore to NAC Holy Sealing is erroneous. - KbbSchindos 04:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

External (Unaffiliated) links deleted[edit]

On June 25, a non-registered user editted the page by removing the external/unaffiliated links Given the limited scope of the article, and the paucity of third party material to draw from, this is a grave disservice to anyone wanting to know about the New Apostolic church other than what has been cut-and-pasted from the primay church website, which is clearly not a neutral point of view. As such, I propose restoring the external links

KbbSchindos 02:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]


The External (Unaffiliated) Links have been restored, as no objection to such action has been discussed in the past three days


KbbSchindos 19:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On 3/19/2008, an external link was removed citing per external link guideline (specifically discussion boards). The link was restored, also per the external link guideline: "This page documents an English Wikipedia style guideline. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should follow, though it should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. When editing this page, please ensure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page." So common sense and exceptions are not excluded. Additionally, discussion boards are not absolutely excluded, "should avoid" is the term used in that section. The reason for this exception is the restored links leads to the only active English language site documenting church past and present, via primary material posted for reference, historic summaries, and analysis. KbbSchindos (talk) 01:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On 3/23/2008, once again the external links were editted. Two dead links were removed, which is understandable. However, its amazing how individuals will make such edits, as they have no doubt about their actions, without ever looking at the discussion page. The use of bots allows such targetting, but there is no comprehension of the material or why such links have value to those seeking information. Links restored. Its interesting that so far, none of WP's minders will touch the Rainbow NAC link, yet that one has the most limited information, and another link as it appears to meet "guidelines" is not removed, yet that site does not reference source or provide primary material. A discussion board site is targetted as it is easy to discern as such, without any regard for content. Some of the unreferenced sites material is lifted directly from the discussion board, which maintains archives, history etc with clear sources. Which is more valuable as additional information? KbbSchindos (talk) 17:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On 6/25/2009 once again, an unregistered users editted (deleted) all the external links without discussion. Restored. Also, same user deleted verifiable information regarding NAC as a cult. Restored. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KbbSchindos (talk • contribs) 02:07, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply] 

7/12/2009 a newly registered user deleted the external links, in two steps.

New user twrptrptply, please discuss such significant changes, it is proper etiquette. 2nd contribute something other than capitalization before you arbitrarily decide what links are suitable. There has been an on-going opportunity for discussion about this, but its one-sided. External links will be restored, future deletions without discussion will be reported as vandalism. KbbSchindos (talk) 03:15, 14 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KbbSchindos (talk • contribs) 03:10, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

8/17/2009 Tim Hanlines personal experience and website are now linke in the unaffiliated sites, his site is completely subjective. It will be moved to the end of the listing of unaffiliated sites. Due to the sites personal nature, it does not appear to fit the pattern of other sites listed, and may be removed.KbbSchindos (talk) 01:27, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


History[edit]

The History has been expanded significantly regarding the beginning of this sect Level of detail due to the history of schisms within this body, even from its early leaders.

Sources referenced.

KbbSchindos 19:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

External links where the primary language is other than English[edit]

Due the lack of material in English beyond the official website, linking to sites that may contain English material/discussion as a subset of the main language would be of value. This will be done after a few days to allow discussion. KbbSchindos 22:01, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No objection so several excellent sites added. KbbSchindos (talk) 17:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Minor edits - undoing[edit]

On October 22 an unregistered editor deleted one line without discussion. I have restored that line and provided citation. If the unregistered editor wishes to discuss the item, please do so here prior to further changes. Deletion without discussion may be considered vandalism and reported KbbSchindos 01:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

naki.de[edit]

Hello everybody

These doctrines presented on that website aren't up to date at all. Additional some of his proclaims are wrong, for example 1.6

Someone of the discussion on this webpage said New Apostolic Church wouldn't provide their right doctrine clinically. Of course they do or how could they persuade other people to join them if they didn't present the real doctrine. The Webmaster of naki.de himself sais he would change the proclaims by obtaining updates from New Apostolic Church.

So you should present (additionally) an other reference of doctrine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.77.222.105 (talk) 07:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Electricninja[edit]

Hi Electricninja

Thank you very much for revising the article.

Some comments:

1) The New Apostolic Church is called "Igreja Nova Apostolica" in Portuguese. I will add this information. 2) I see I still have to study a lot xD. Could you briefly explain, why it is necessary to write "The ship sank on which Klibbe was believed to traveling" instead of to be traveling or just to travel. I do not understand. 3) I deliberately linked the word "Holy Sealing" because it is intended to write an article about this Apostolic sacrament, but it will remain as it is now.

regards! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jesuit222 (talk • contribs) 12:05, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Excommunication[edit]

Maybe I misread the article, but I don't think it addresses this issue: does the church practice excommunication? If yes, what acts are punishable by excommunication? --Europe22 (talk) 00:33, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Piepkorn citation[edit]

Knowing a bit about Arthur Karl Piepkorn, I find the reference in the section on sacraments to be of extremely dubious reference. It implies that Piepkorn endorsed this "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" as a sacrament, whihc is extremely unlikely.

I haven't been able to track down the citation given, but since it is a secondary cite it isn't sound anyway, so for the moment I'm pulling it. The text as it stands says:

The Holy Sealing has been defined by Arthur C. Piepkorn as "the most exalted sacramental impartation of grace that a human being can receive".[19] Dismalscholar (talk) 03:00, 15 December 2010 (UTC)Dismalscholar (talk) 03:01, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Copy editing[edit]

I made some style changes to make the article more consistent and most of them are European/English style rather than American. I did this because the focus of the NAC is non-American. Dates are in DD month YYYY format. Spellings are UK English (eg. organisation instead of organization). The church is abbreviated 'the NAC' instead of just 'NAC'. Grahamwest (talk) 11:36, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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