Talk:Nelson Mandela/Archive 6

Response to discussion and some notes

1. "So, it's a no-go for project codename "Night of the Long Knives"/"Uhuru", then?" and "Actually, how widespread is the belief in this obvious urban myth? Is it an isolated internet phenomenon (and, by knowing it, proof that I need to get a life) or is it more widespread among the general Afrikaner public? Is it even worthy of mention in the article?"

Yes - it is worthy of a mention. This is not just an internet phenomenon as I personally know many South Africans who are aware of it. It is not substantiated however so although it might be worthy of a mention it shouldn't be labelled as fact because there is no evidence to support this.

If it is not substantiated it should not be included.

2. On Mandela being labelled a terrorist. He is a terrorist and should be classified as such. Evidence: "UMKHONTO WE SIZWE MANIFESTO, 1961

The government has interpreted the peacefulness of the movement as weakness. The people's non-violent policies have been taken as a green light for government violence. Refusal to resort to force has been interpreted by the government as an invitation to use armed force against the people without any fear of reprisals. The methods of Umkhonto we Sizwe mark a break with that past."

Does this not formally declare an end to peaceful and non-violent protest?

Violence as a last resort against tyranny is not necessarily terrorism. The MK manifesto is not evidence that Mandela was a terrorist. Why not call him a freedom fighter? In order to achieve neutrality, the article should avoid emotive labels (i.e. terrorist, freedom fighter, etc.)

That said, the fact that some countries declared him a terrorist should be included. (While making it clear that a declaration doesn't make him a terrorist and that many of these countries have subsequently awarded him their highest honours.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.171.114.135 (talk) 20:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Secondly; From the ANC's website:

"In 1961 Umkhonto we Sizwe was formed, with Mandela as its commander-in-chief. In 1962 Mandela left the country unlawfully and travelled abroad for several months. In Ethiopia he addressed the Conference of the Pan African Freedom Movement of East and Central Africa, and was warmly received by senior political leaders in several countries. During this trip Mandela, anticipating an intensification of the armed struggle, began to arrange guerrilla training for members of Umkhonto we Sizwe."

Surely if the man was against violence, which he himself has stated he wasn't, then why would he be arranging guerrilla training within two years of forming MK?

3. Mandela singing song about killing White People? "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKiePbTcAfY&feature=related Is it true or just but translation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cesarz (talk • contribs) 03:10, 28 January 2008 (UTC)"

Yes, this is one of the anthems of MK. And yes, it's Mandela singing it.

212.42.190.101 (talk) 17:17, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

The Uhuru article has been deleted -- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Operation Uhuru. Seemed to be primarily for sourcing/POV concerns- I'm sure a good article could be written on the subject. John Nevard (talk) 21:08, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Bob Marley Song

Is the song by Bob Marley where it goes "Bring back Nelson Mandela, bring him back home to ...." Is that a cover? If it's not it should added to the song list —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.212.64.234 (talk) 03:35, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

People

Why is Albert Lutuli (see also: [1]) not listed amongst people in the "Apartheid in South Africa" box? Lutuli was a President of the ANC in the late 1950s / early 1960s and the first South African (first African?) to win the Nobel Peace Prize. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harrylts (talk • contribs) 17:32, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Honours

I think some should have his Honours in precedence on the list —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.242.61.232 (talk) 15:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

He received the Prince of Asturias Awards for International Cooperation in 1992. This prize was also shared with Frederik Willem de Klerk.

Nobel Prize logo

Is there a reason why the gold medal Nobel Prize logo is not above the picture? It is there on other prize winners. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.78.134.245 (talk) 12:57, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

What happened to the logo? I think it should stay above the picture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.68.180.252 (talk) 15:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Formatting Problems with page.

I just want to put a call out. There seems to be a few various formatting in this page and one of the info-blocks. I readily admit I'm not terribly familiar with Wiki Markup, but anyone else who is, if you could take a look, that'd be great.

The problem does present itself in multiple browsers, so I know it's not just that. BuShroom (talk) 00:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Nelson Mandela Place

Should be noted that there is also a Nelson Mandela Place in Glasgow City Centre.91.125.37.91 (talk) 02:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It's already noted, on List of Nelson Mandela awards and honours. Zaian (talk) 13:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Birth date

I think nelson's birthdate is July 25,1918. (incorrectly stated as July 18)... why do you guys think? source:[2]

Shalom, Geper acsian (talk) 11:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC) its 26th july isnt it —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordanwilson1994 (talk • contribs) 07:46, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Typos

On the introduction area, the last sentence writes Nelson beMandela. Please fix that.

Anu-san (talk) 21:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)Anu-san

The words "organization" and "criticized" are misspelled throughout the article. The word "specter" is also either misspelled or given a nonstandard spelling outside of General American English. Please correct these as well.

69.134.122.144 (talk) 00:35, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually they're not misspelt. South Africa does not uze General American English spelling ;-) Zaian (talk) 15:13, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Second Marriage, Paragraph 2: 'from the age of 4 up unitl 16' - typo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.214.63.59 (talk) 17:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

First paragraph: "as well as other crimes committed while he lead the movement against apartheid" should be "as well as other crimes committed while he led the movement against apartheid" MikkleThePickle (talk) 22:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

GCStJ

Mandela, as a Bailiff Grand Cross of the Order of St John (http://www.orderofstjohn.org/uploads/PDF/newsletters/the_linkissue_14.pdf) is entitled to the post nominal GCStJ, so this could possibly be added in.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.132.3.6 (talk) 19:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Mandela's views on military intervention

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Proletarian_internationalism#Nelson_Mandela_on_Cuban_military_intervention_in_Africa

Mandela Stamp

Fighter for liberation of South Africa Nelson Mandela on the 1988 USSR commemorative stamp

I don't find this image very fitting. A stamp is not very notable and it hardly looks like him, and without personal bias, the Soviet Union wasn't exactly known for its respect for minorities. With so many tributes made for him, a picture of a statue or something else is much more fitting. - PietervHuis (talk) 20:13, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

If you don't mind, what exactly where the actions taken by the Soviet government to "disrespect" the minorities of the USSR, like: Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Turkmens, or Uzbeks? As you probably know, the worst human rights violations in former Soviet Republics from Central Asia took place after 1991. Alexemanuel (talk) 14:22, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Well the Soviet-Afghan war was still ongoing. But I kind of mean human rights in general. A USSR-stamp seems rather cherry-picked, for a regime that is gone now anyway. - PietervHuis (talk) 20:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Guerrilla activities

The section on guerrilla activities is vague and needs clarification. What exactly does "He coordinated a sabotage campaign against military and government targets" mean? What exact actions did Mandela plan? Of those actions, which did he participate in executing? Car bombs? Bombing buildings? "Sabotage" brings to mind non-violent action such as dismantling machinery, is that all he did? Andrew Oakley (talk) 14:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

See chapter 45 of Long Walk to Freedom where Mandela writes about his leading role in the birth of Umkhonto we Sizwe "on 16 December [1961]... homemade bombs were exploded at electric power stations and government offices in Johannesburg, Port Elizabeth and Durban". He doesn't mention a hands-on role, but he is explicit about his role in the decision to undertake a campaign of sabotage, to minimise harm to individuals, and about the willingness to move on to guerilla warfare and terrorism if this was not enough to bring the government to the bargaining table. Anthony Sampson goes into it in more length in Mandela: The Authorised Biography, but without details of specific acts. He says that Mandela adhered to non-violence until a month after a failed strike on Republic Day, 31 May 1961. Mandela was arrested in August 1962, so his time as active leader of MK was short. Zaian (talk) 19:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Real Age

He's 90 now. Please update. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.35.93.92 (talk • contribs) 17:41, 25 June 2008

Not yet. CBS NEWS "LONDON, June 23, 2008. Nelson Mandela is in London this week to celebrate his 90th birthday. The former South African president turns 90 on July 18." So while he's celebrating his birthday, he doesn't actually turn 90 for another month.

Also, fyi, the Template:Birth date and age is in use in the infobox, which can automatically calculate the age. Gotyear (talk) 19:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry - my mistake I read July as June. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.35.93.92 (talk) 18:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Terrorist designation

The entry reads that the ANC is a designated terrorist organization in the U.S.

"Among opponents of apartheid in South Africa and internationally, he became a symbol of freedom and equality, while the apartheid government and nations sympathetic to it condemned him and the ANC as communists and terrorists (the United States still lists the ANC as a terrorist organization, though the United States Congress is considering removing the designation)."

The BBC article that it cites, however, only states that the government of South Africa designated the ANC as a terrorist organization.

76.100.143.205 (talk) 06:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with removing that sentence. It is notable that Mandela and/or the ANC were designated as "terrorists" by SA and some other governments at the time of the anti-apartheid struggle. It's not especially notable that in 2008 the US still hasn't got round to removing that designation. That was a legal anomaly which got a bit of news coverage a few months ago, but it doesn't deserve to be in the article lead. Zaian (talk) 07:27, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Infobox: Vice Presidents??

The office is called Deputy President in South Africa. GoodDay (talk) 00:29, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion, section: "Imprisonment"

Concerning the section labelled "Imprisonment", 6th paragraph, 2nd line, perhaps the sentence ending: "...Volks Hospital in Cape Town where Mandela was being treated for prostate surgery." should read: "...Volks Hospital in Cape Town where Mandela was being treated by prostate surgery." Or: "...Mandela was being treated through prostate surgery." --Lakat (talk) 22:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

To the GA reviewer and GA nominator

I count three usages of [citation needed], prose which doesn't flow per MOS, and other prose related issues. miranda 23:11, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Not critical issues, I judge. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:23, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Rogue Sentence at the beginning

"he is a boring person. why do people celebrate him any ways?" Somebody should remove that. --Major Small (talk) 04:03, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Mandela remains on US terror list

I think this should be mentioned in the article. Where? 61.195.41.204 (talk) 11:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Done, under "Guerrilla activities". Andrew Oakley (talk) 13:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Terrorist?

This article is biased. While I have great respect for the man, the fact remains that he was a terrorist who authorised and condoned the murder of civilians. He was not just called a terrorist, he was one. The fact that he is now a man of peace does not change that, nor does his being a former terrorist diminish what he has accomplished. But let us be honest, and not take his credit. The man went from being a terrorist to being a man of peace. That's a great thing he did, and makes his accomplishments as a peacemaker even greater, not less in any way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.209.113.68 (talk) 18:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

This should be included if it is true, but if it is it should be referenced incredibly well. Personally, I haven't come across any recent reputable sources (academic, think tank, credible mainstream media, etc.) that label him as a terrorist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.171.114.135 (talk) 20:23, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Mandela was convicted of sabotage and as far as I know there were no civilian casualties in the short time that he was head of Umkhonto We Sizwe. In Mandela's autobiography, he claims that MK actions at that time deliberately avoided civilian casualties. MK's actions did kill civilians in later years, but that was while Mandela was in prison and no longer commanding their operations. If you have references for the claim that Mandela "authorised and condoned the murder of civilians", please provide them. Zaian (talk) 11:51, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure I remember a TV report about an incident involving Mandela, a school bus, and a grenade or other explosive device... but in this particular case it seems detailed information is hard to come by, even on the internet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.57.143.108 (talk • contribs) September 12, 2008

Believe me, a story like that would be extremely well known, if it had any basis in reality. Zaian (talk) 21:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Nelson Mandela/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

A very good page. It satisfies all the areas of GA requirements. In striving to make the article better, I would encourage more explication of his life events. His political activities before imprisonment and his activities as president could both be expanded. Otherwise, great job!

ScienceApologist (talk) 23:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. This page has some unreferenced paragraphs. Please reference them. --I'm an Editorofthewiki^{[citation needed]} 00:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

amnesty int. and mandela

somebody should add the decision of AI not to sponsor mandela when he was convicted -which shows me its unsufficient ideological backing anyway from its beginning on-

http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Govern_Political/mand_amn.html http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s7089.html "Like Water on Stone: The Story of Amnesty International" By Jonathan Power (@ books.google.com) http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761553034/amnesty_international.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.170.138.209 (talk) 01:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Request better photo of the Mandela statue in London

Can anyone supply a better photo of the statue in Parliament Square, London? The background of the current photo is ugly and the upper part of the statue is almost invisible against the dark trees. Zaian (talk) 09:55, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure your screen's adjusted properly? The top part looks just fine to me, especially in the larger version of the photo (it's a bit more blurry in the smaller version, but I don't really see how you can avoid that). Also, while the building work in the photo has since been completed, I'm afraid it wouldn't make a much more picturesque background than the existing version. We could perhaps do with a photo taken on a sunny day, which would give better contrast on the statue's features, but with our wonderful London weather we might be waiting a while for that. :P --86.134.242.184 (talk) 13:11, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I still say this photo could be much improved by better lighting and a cleaner background. Lighting could be solved by taking it on a brighter day, with the sun in a different position, or with fill-in flash. A cluttered background can be solved by choosing a different angle, or by forcing the background out of focus with a camera which gives control over the depth of field. Zaian (talk) 08:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Third marriage

the phrase "once again" sounds very judgmental. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.203.43.194 (talk) 00:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

90th birthday

The text currently reads:

9.7 90th birthday

On 18 July 2008, Mandela gave a speech to mark his 90th birthday. He called for richer people to help more poorer people across the world. He stated that being poor means that you are less likely to live a long time and your quality of life is therefore significantly worse. He attacked the rich in South Africa, by saying "There are many people in South Africa who are rich and can share those riches with those not so fortunate who have not been able to conquer poverty." Poverty is a topic frequently raised by Mandela, owing to his strong political views on it. Also for his 90th birtday birthday, Mandela held celebrations in South Africa, especially with his family. Mr de Klerk, who was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize with Mandela in 1993, said that the former Prime Minister President was a born natural leader with the "assurance, the humility and the grace of a true natural aristocrat." Friday 18 July 2008 also marks marked Mandela's 10th Wedding anniversary with his third wife, Graca Graça Machel. The celebratory party is to takes took place on the Saturday after his birthday in a giant white marquee erected in Qunu village. Three cows are to be were slaughtered for the event, and traditional food is to be served, such as tripe and sheep's head, was served. Birthday celebrations have already been taking taken place all over the world to mark his birthday: a concert was held in Hyde Park, London in June. I nother In other events, the Eastern Cape Agricultural Department has give gave 150 goats to poor communities in South Africa, and the ANC have placed two large banners of Mandela on the side of their headquarters at Luthuli House.

This has spelling errors and demonstrates generally weak English. Philip Norton (talk) 13:22, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Nobel Prize icon

I notice that the Nobel Prize icon Template:Nobel icon has been added and removed a couple of times, and would like to point out a discussion at Template talk:Nobel icon#Consensus?. --Stormie (talk) 07:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the icon. The discussion on Template Talk:Nobel icon is strongly leaning towards not using these icons. Zaian (talk) 06:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

YouTube video link

Someone has added a link in the External Links section to a youtube video which claims to show Mandela singing about killing whites. The youtube link is hardly a reliable source and this one includes an open forum discussion with such pearls of wisdom as "Nelson mandela is a ****** and i think he is a stupid little ********". I tried to find a more reliable source discussing this video clip (preferably providing a translation and context), but it was a most unpleasant task, as it seems to appear mainly on white supremacist websites where most of the discussion is on the same level as the comment I just mentioned. Does anyone want to comment - should the link stay or go? Zaian (talk) 12:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the link, because of the above concerns about the lack of context and about the forum discussion. The context is essential here. Where did this song come from? When did this occur (e.g. during a breakdown in negotiations pre-1994, or after he became president?) What is the translation - literal as well as figurative (e.g. whether it refers to all whites, or more generally to the "apartheid regime"?) What actually happened (did Mandela initiate the singing or join in enthusiastically, was it sprung on him by a militant crowd, did he look embarassed or condemn it in any way?) Was it an isolated incident or did he sing similar songs on other occasions? Does it gel with his political actions at the time, is it out of character, or is it evidence of a hidden agenda? I have a POV on some of these questions, but putting it in the article would be OR. A reliable source discussing the event would be a useful link; without context, and especially with the associated Youtube forum discussion, it shouldn't be linked. Zaian (talk) 10:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:OR has the following to say:

Primary sources that have been published by a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should:

• only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and
• make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source.

Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.

Zaian (talk) 10:04, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

References

I hope I've added enough references to the article, so that it can undergo a thorough copyedit and hopefully become an FA. --EclipseSSD (talk) 17:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Imprisonment contradictions

The article states "Mandela describes how, as a D-group prisoner (the lowest classification) he was allowed one visitor and one letter every six months. Letters, when they came, were often delayed for long periods and made unreadable by the prison censors. Whilst in prison Mandela undertook study with the University of London by correspondence"

How was it possible for Mandela to undertake a correspondence course if he was only allowed one letter every six months? This section appears to contradict itself. Should this read "INITIALLY he was allowed ... one letter every six months ... LATER, as prison restrictions were relaxed, Mandela undertook study ... by correspondence" If so, can anyone provide a source stating when and how these restrictions were relaxed? Or is the paraphrasing of Mandela inaccurate? Or was Mandela lying? Andrew Oakley (talk) 10:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Mandela was lying. Many websites seem to state the fact he did, but say nothing about prison relaxation rules. Also, (personal experience) the tour guide, himself a political prisoner, at Robben Island also spoke of Mandela's correspondance with the University of London. --EclipseSSD (talk) 21:28, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Another Song

"Mandel[l]a" by American singer/songwriter Tom_Smith_(filker), inspired by watching a solar eclipse on the day of Nelson Mandela's inauguration. "MANDEL[L]A". Tom Smith Online. Retrieved 2008-11-11.</ref>

CalendarGrrl (talk) 17:02, 11 November 2008 (UTC)User:CalendarGrrl 16:50, 11 November 2008

Liliesleaf Farm

I've prepared an article on Liliesleaf Farm, as I live very close to it and can source information from the displays at the site itself. Could the editors of this article please have a look and if its OK make a link to it. I only moved it today. Colinvlr (talk) 18:40, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Good work. I've made a few minor changes to the article, and added links to it from quite a few other articles, including this one. While it's still new, you might consider adding it to the Did You Know list on the main page. You can propose it for this at Template talk:Did you know. Zaian (talk) 19:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Mandela and scouting

If there are no objections I would like to add a small section about Nelson Mandela being the patron of the South African Scout Association[3] as well as his receiving of the highest African Scout award[4][5]. -- YiS, Jediwannabe 11:38, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

The right place for this information is List of Nelson Mandela awards and honours. Mandela has received too much recognition of this sort for it all to be included on his biographical page. Zaian (talk) 12:15, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

That would be why I asked, wasn't sure if this is the right place. Thanks -- YiS, Jediwannabe 14:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC)