Talk:National Register of Historic Places listings in Scott County, Iowa

Development

I'm running some programs i've written recently to use the National Register's NRIS database to generate some material that can be used in some of the Scott County articles. I ran similar programs recently for 3 smaller counties in other states. Having some trouble with Scott County list-article, as it is so big. Can this be split? I would at least split out Davenport from the rest of Scott County, removing about 30 items. Can Davenport be divided naturally into several geographical areas, so there are 100 or so or fewer per each area? Other cities have been split out from larger counties and other cities have been split by neighborhood groups.

For the moment, some first-round drafts are located now at Talk:National Register of Historic Places listings in Scott County, Iowa/drafts and Talk:National Register of Historic Places listings in Scott County, Iowa/drafts2, but these will be overwritten. Also Recent changes for all the Scott County articles can be checked, which works off a corresponding /draftnames list of article titles. More later. --doncram (talk) 01:41, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

P.S. I edited Cork Hill District to add a draft reference to the pair of Davenport MRA documents of 1982 and 1983. I wonder if the reference itself could be improved, then i could include the revised version into /draft articles for all ones where relevant. The draft reference is as here.The property was covered in a 1982 study of Davenport MRA and/or its 1983 follow-on.

Can that be improved or is it fully proper now? --doncram (talk) 02:31, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

If you feel a split is beneficial, we could do downtown and non-downtown Davenport, which downtown is official from Warren/5th street south and east to the river which doesn't really even the split, perhaps a split east/west of Brady Street (Highway 61) would be good if we split. CTJF83 chat 04:48, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I revised the /drafts and /drafts2. They are computer-generated and include some bits of useful material for new and already-existing articles. For example i edited E.S. Barrows House using material and some judgment, in this edit. They also include stuff which is not helpful, like the statement that the place is described in its NRHP document with a long reference, which is not actually available for all or most of these (the statement works properly in North Dakota and other states where the NRHP docs are on-line). I'll try out editing using that info in some more articles over the next few days. Not sure if this will be that helpful, but you can try too. Please ask questions! --doncram (talk) 16:10, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

About possible split, i think that will eventually be needed as this list-article itself gets bigger with added descriptions, but it can wait. --doncram (talk) 16:10, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Ok, cool, thanks for your help with the....uhh, what's the word? I'll go with generated information. :) CTJF83 chat 16:23, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

For another example, in this edit i revise the Walker Adams House article to add a bit more material. In that edit i also dropped the Archiplanet external link, which is just another copy of the public domain NRIS database served up on a private site. This is one covered in the Davenport MRA, so something from the now-linked docs for that, about this house, could also be added, i would think.

By the way the Elkman NRHP infobox already put into most of these articles has coords, which my NRHP batch-generator version does not provide, so while i like my version for other aspects, you still want to use both. --doncram (talk) 18:01, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Ok :) CTJF83 chat 18:32, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Split now

Time to split, now, yes? I began dividing the table into Davenport vs. Other, non-Davenport Scott County listings. And the Davenport table needs to gain identification of which of five official neighborhoods apply. Can anyone else help, applying the neighborhoods reported in Neighborhoods of Davenport, Iowa as being 5 official neighborhoods? After all are classified, this list-article can then be split geographically using this segmentation. --doncram 01:38, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Funny, we just disused this the other day. There are more than 5 official neighborhoods. (Neighborhoods of Davenport, Iowa) There are 5 general areas, which I can divide this into if you wish. Is that what we want it to be? Divided by the 5 general areas, then a 6th for outside the area? Or just split it A-M and N-Z. Doncram, how are these usually split, as you have NRHP experience. The problem with the 5 areas is these were created early in the cities history, so the much expanded north areas won't be in one of these areas. In fact the "North and Near North" areas are actually now in the south to south central part of the city. CTJF83 23:08, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm more than willing to help. I grew up in Davenport and lived in and around the city most of my life so I know it quite well. Looking at counties in other states that have a large number of NRHP properties the divisions appear to be according to area. At the outset using the five general areas makes sense. However, I've noticed the west end has a particularly large number of properties-disproportionate to the other areas of the city. There are very few properties on the north side of the city; I think only two on NW Blvd. Davenport MRA properties are found in the core city and they make up the largest share of the properties. While on that subject, I don't care for the Davenport MRA key. Although I don't consider this the mountain to die on, I think it makes the whole thing look a little busy. I have time this week, but I might be busy with real work the next two. I'll contribute as I can. I definitely think this needs to be done. Farragutful (talk) 22:23, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Let's decide how we want to split it. Farragutful, what do you think of something like west of Marquette, Marquette to Main, and east of Main? With no regards how far north or south it is, being almost all are south of Locust. Something like that for a rough dividing area. We could do 4 areas too if necessary. CTJF83 23:12, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

From other experience, it seems best by far to split geographically rather than alphabetically, in part so that corresponding maps showing all the places make sense. From that neighborhoods article, i took it that there are 5 official neighborhoods. From other experience, I believe that using an available, official partition works best, as used in List of RHPs in Philly (uses planning neighborhoods) and List of RHPs in Baltimore (uses official neighborhoods grouped into pairs) and in other NRHP-list articles for cities. Shortcuts to some others are List of RHPs in Denver (where a non-official partition was used i think), List of RHPs in Boston (uses official neighborhoods), List of RHPs in NYC (uses major streets, not an official partition). The only city divided alphabetically is List of RHPs in St. Louis, which is split into two, and I want to fix that soon.

I didn't actually look for or find more specifics on the official partition for Scott County. I was hoping y'all would point us to that. Is there a document that includes a map showing the partition? Only if there is not an official partition available should a lets-invent-our-own type of partition be used, IMHO. You're the local experts, though. Is there an official partition that you can agree to hang our hats on? --doncram 00:26, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

(ec) This is the map I created that show all the official historic neighborhoods. The 5 areas each have 1 or more of these historic neighborhoods in them. For example, the 3 on the far right are part of the east neighborhoods. I like the map idea, we can use this free map to put a dot (or better yet a number) on each of the places. If we do that, we should limit it to maybe 25 per article, so as to not overwhelm a map. CTJF83 00:31, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

That map is not a complete partition; it just shows some areas. It seems helpful to have a complete partition that divides the city into mapped out areas that are very objective, and allow everything to be located somewhere (with some historic districts perhaps spanning into 2 official areas).

One map associated with any NRHP list-article is the linked Google/Bing maps, generated from the coordinates in the list-article. The Google map can handle almost any number of items.... but i Bing has a limit on not showing more than 200 (click on "Map of all coordinates from Bing" in the article, and you get to see just the first 200 items out of the 282 or so in the article).

This Davenport 2025 city plan document, at around page 66, uses a 3 part partition: core vs. 2nd tier vs. 3rd tier areas, reflective of Davenport's history of growth and annexation. A map is included which shows which U.S. census districts are included in which areas. That provides one complete partition. I haven't found the 5 part partition which is mentioned in the Wikipedia neighborhoods article. Is that in an older planning document? --doncram 00:53, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Here's the 13 official planning areas shown on a map. I suggest your choosing to group together some of those, e.g. maybe area 1, 8, and 11 together as "West", and maybe just 2 as "Downtown" or maybe 2, 3, and 4 together as "Downtown", and form other sets similarly. If there is not a different official partition that is better. --doncram 01:06, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The above map I created lists all the historic neighborhoods as defined on the neighborhood page, before 1900. Since it is historic ones, it doesn't list any neighborhoods in north or west Davenport, as those are newer.

Your ideas are great, Doncram, but the only problem is, 95% of the places are in the core area for that map (although we could divide it by the numbers in the core section). On the other map, 90% are in sections 1, 2, and 3, and maybe 8% in number 4, with the rest being scattered in the other areas. 8 has only 1 property, while 9, 11, 12, 13 have zero properties, 10 has 2, 6 has 3 and 5 has 1-4 depending on which side of the street they are on I guess, as they may all be in 2. How 1-3 are divided is close to how I suggested it with the streets up above. If the city hadn't expanded beyond the historic ones as listed on the neighborhood article, that would be a great divider. CTJF83 08:16, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I am unaware of any official map used by the city other than one that divides it into wards, which I don't think is helpful here. There is a natural feel to what Ctjf83 suggested above by dividing the city into three sections. I have always associated the west end as being west of Marquette, but instead of Main Street I think I would use Brady Street as the dividing line between central and east. All the addresses in the city are numbered east and west from there. A Main Street division would also cut the College Square Historic District in two. The only potential problem I see is that some properties downtown will be in the east section and a majority will be in the central section. Maybe that isn't a big deal, but I tend to see downtown as a single unit, not broken up into sections. Farragutful (talk) 20:29, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

We could separate 4th and River Dr west to Marquette and south of 5th Street and call it downtown, then separate east and west at one of the following Marquette/Gaines/Brady/Harrison, which ever one makes it the most even. CTJF83 21:57, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

That makes sense. I'll have to look at the list again to determine which street to use to divide east and west. I don't have time right now. Farragutful (talk) 22:50, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

No rush :) CTJF83 22:56, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

If we were to do a division at Brady Street there would be roughly 111 properties west of Brady and 89 to the east. Another 52 would be downtown if we used Marquette as a western boundry, and 30 or so would make up the rest of the county. This is a rough count as I might have marked some wrong, but it's close. There are by my count 6 properties on the west side of Brady Street and if we put those in with the east side that would bring the west side closer to 100. (I excluded Trinity Cathedral, which is on the west side of Brady but faces Main.)

Therefore, I think we should divide the county into four secions: Downtown Davenport, Davenport East, Davenport West and all the others. All of the properties on Brady Street and those to the east would make up the east listings. Those properties west of Brady would make up the west listings. It also gives us officially recognized divisions. Farragutful (talk) 21:56, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. CTJF83 23:59, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Err, if we put properties on Brady on the east, that won't split up College Hill, will it? CTJF83 00:03, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Hiram Price/Henry Vollmer House should go on the college hill side, I suggest. CTJF83 00:08, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I started:

• National Register of Historic Places listings in Downtown Davenport, Iowa
• National Register of Historic Places listings in East Davenport, Iowa
• National Register of Historic Places listings in West Davenport, Iowa

Not sure what to call the one for the other areas, and not sure if east/west need to be capitalized. Before I start splitting the articles up, I want to confirm we are splitting east west by Brady, and downtown south of 5th, and from 4th/River west to Marquette, and that Vollmer House needs to go on the College Hill side, which is west, and if anything else needs to go like that. CTJF83 04:33, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

What do you think of something like this? CTJF83 07:58, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I will again affirm the east west split at Brady Street. According to this map College Square is all west of Brady and therefore I would put it in the west. I just realized Vander Veer is more problematic as it is on both sides Brady Street. According to this map, which shows all the districts, it includes the Outing Club property on the east and at least the E.P. Adler House on the west. A possible solution is to list them in both (see below).

I don't understand why you think the Price/Vollmer House is connected with College Square as it is not in the district and historically has had nothing to do with any of the institutions that were located there in the past or are presently located there.

A quick look at other states shows that where there are multiple pages for the county's listings the city with one or more pages uses geographic areas and the rest of the county uses the basic county page. For example Hamilton County, Ohio divides Cincinnati into four areas

• National Register of Historic Places listings in downtown Cincinnati, Ohio
• National Register of Historic Places listings in eastern Cincinnati, Ohio
• National Register of Historic Places listings in northern Cincinnati, Ohio
• National Register of Historic Places listings in western Cincinnati, Ohio

The rest of the county's properties are listed on the National Register of Historic Places listings in Hamilton County, Ohio page. When making changes to the state page in order to link the new pages, the county page is referred to as "Hamilton County: Other" and the city's pages are named "Hamilton County: Cincinnati: East" and the like. I also noted the Over-the-Rhine Historic District is listed on both the east and west pages and there is a seperate place on the state page for duplicates in the county with a footnote on the state page stating that. Cuyahoga County, Ohio (Cleveland) has the same situation. That might be a solution for Vander Veer, and if you feel strongly, for College Square. Farragutful (talk) 17:21, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Ignore my Volmer/College Square stuff...It isn't even in College Square. For Vander Veer, what do you mean list them in both? List the Outing Club and the Adler House both on the east and west side of Davenport? CTJF83 18:47, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, that was an earlier rumination. The Outing Club and Adler house are both within the historic district on different sides of Brady Street. I should have deleted that because I ended up answering my own question later on. List Vander Veer twice, once in the east and once in the west seeing as it's in both. List the other two only once in their respective areas. Farragutful (talk) 18:58, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I'll start the split. In about an hour, once my camera charges, I'm gonna go picture taking. It's overcast, so no harsh sunlight, hope overcast is ok for pics. Also, do you think we need something like User:Ctjf83/Side? CTJF83 19:10, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't know, I prefer pics in sunshine. I think the buildings look better. Just ignore mine that are overcast, however! Actually, I wouldn't mind if those were replaced. It is difficult to get pics on the south side of the street this time of year. The sun is always in the way. I do like the side. I think anything that helps with navigation is a good thing. I also meant to mention above that I noticed words like downtown, east and west are shown in lower case in the titles.Farragutful (talk) 19:26, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I'll wait for sunshine. :) I can retake your pics if you wish, just didn't want to do it without you asking, cause it seems rude to me. Grrr, we are going to have to go through and renumber all these (if we even need numbers) CTJF83 19:30, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

The pics I would really like replaced are: College Square Historic District (although I like the Kemper Hall pic and the Cathedral's okay. If you wanted to take another pic of the monument I wouldn't complain), Cork Hill District, Hose Station No. 6, House at 919 Oneida Street, Nicholas J. Kuhnen House, Northwest Davenport Savings Bank, Northwest Davenport Turner Society Hall and Shields Woolen Mill. You can also replace my pic of the Renwick Mansion on the St. Katherine's Historic District page. And, yes, I think we need numbers. Let me know what I can do to help. Farragutful (talk) 19:56, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I have all 3 new pages and the original page in edit mode, and just going down the original one by one and putting them in the appropriate new page. I'm up to "F", and probably gonna stop after "M", to take a break (as this is tedious) and run to the gym. If you want, you can continue with "N", or you can renumber what I've put on the new pages, or I can do them after the gym. Any is fine with me :) CTJF83 20:00, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't have that much more time today. I'll check back in a little bit and when I see you've gotten to M, I'll renumber the lists. Farragutful (talk) 20:31, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok, cool, break for now. CTJF83 20:37, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I made some edits and re-numbered the charts. Farragutful (talk) 21:44, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I was gonna say, we might need a 2nd pair of eyes to make sure I didn't accidentally (like I did) put the properties on the wrong page. CTJF83 22:55, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

 Done Done!! :) Farragutful, I'll let you renumber, so you can verify I didn't make a mistake. CTJF83 19:28, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok, now the FL push! I suggest downtown first, as we have most of the pictures. :) CTJF83 20:34, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Should we dab this page like National Register of Historic Places listings in New York County, New York? CTJF83 20:58, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Finished with the re-numbering and editing. I think everything is consistent now. I do wonder if the words "West" and "East" should be changed to lower case words. Otherwise East Davenport and West Davenport sound like proper names. I do like the NYC page and I think that would work well for Davenport as well. Farragutful (talk) 21:14, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok, ya, I think lowercase would be correct. If we do a DAB page for this, what should we call the article with these properties? CTJF83 21:16, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

National Register of Historic Places listings in Davenport, Iowa? Farragutful (talk) 21:21, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I mean were we going to dab National Register of Historic Places listings in Scott County, Iowa like the NYC page? If so, Davenport, won't work in the title. CTJF83 21:26, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't do one for the county then. I was thinking only of the city. Farragutful (talk) 21:45, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Ahh, ok...can you start a stub on the last 2 properties...Marycrest College Historic District and Gilruth Schoolhouse? Thanks!...and we can start on downtown FL! :) CTJF83 22:03, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

According to this map the Marycrest HD is the Marycrest International University campus. Does there really need to be another page written? It would repeat the same information. I think the only reason it's an historic district is that Chris Ales (the developer) wanted to use historic tax credits to develop the property into senior housing. I can do Gilruth Schoolhouse, do you kow if it exists anymore? I think it was torn down and that's why it was delisted as I cannot remember seeing it. Farragutful (talk) 22:23, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Oh, you already did the work on Marycrest, ya a redirect there would be good (name change to Marycrest HD?). Good old Google maps! I'm gonna guess it was torn down and possible there? I guess it is from the 1800s, so could be torn down anywhere at that intersection. It's gone though. I dunno though, this map seems wrong to me, how they have Marquette turn into 53rd. CTJF83 22:35, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

No, the map is correct. You know how Davenport's streets are a bit crazy? Marquette dead ends at 46th St., I think, and then appears again on NW Blvd. heading north. Even I find it confusing. I wonder if the old school house wasn't on the right? Anyway, I was thinking that the Marycrest page could be re-named Marycrest HD because the school doesn't exist anymore. I will do the school house tomorrow as I don't have anymore time today. I can also take care of Marycrest if you want. I'll check back tomorrow morning sometime. Farragutful (talk) 22:51, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Ya, a rename to marycrest HD would be good. I never understood these streets especially Harrison. Couldn't they come up with more street names, rather than disconnected ones?! And why does welcome way and NW blvd merge and become Harrison?!!? Answer?? LOL, goofy city. Thanks for your help! CTJF83 22:55, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Been watching and learning as you have progressed through dividing of this list. As a quick stop gap fix I added 3 {{See also}} to link to the 3 Davenport lists. I am sure it can be improved upon but thought it was important not to lose those NRHP's for the main Scott County NRHP listing.
--RifeIdeas Talk 23:44, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

You must've missed this in the top right corner ;) CTJF83 12:42, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

You are right I missed it. So I suggest you make it easy for anybody not familiar with the template to know there is links to the other three pages. You have been working on the page so it is second nature to you but the average user may not know to look there for links. I suggest some kind of link or directions in the main article.
--RifeIdeas Talk 00:07, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Do you have a more specific suggestion? CTJF83 12:41, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

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