Talk:National Lawyers Guild

Alger Hiss

What is the documentation for the edit stating that Hiss was a founding member of the NLG? I have never heard nor seen evidence of that and I don't recall it being mentioned in Victor Rabinowitz' book which documents the NLG founding. Unless there is some documentation, it should be deleted. In addition, even if Hiss was a founder, which I think is unlikely, there were other more prominent founders whom it would make more sense to mention.

According to Lenora Fuller, who knew Hiss in the 1930s when he was employed at the Agricultural Adjustment Administration, reported Hiss was one of the "organizers" of the Lawyers Guild. This information is available in the FBI Silvermaster file. One may suspect, given the association, and given the results of a massive Google search, the organization may have taken steps over previous decades to sanitize references to a list of its founders. Also, I beleive that information can be corroborated in the records of the 1952 Senate Internal Security Subcommittee. Nobs01 5 July 2005 21:21 (UTC)

Well, I think this info. should be removed then. The NLG had many prominent founders, why single out Hiss, particularly when the only record of his founding is from FBI files from a time when he was being prosecuted. I doubt the NLG "sanitized" anything given that they were openly supportive of Hiss and his case and still are to this day. This reference smacks more of a political smear than NPOV info appropriate for an encylopedic entry.

Then it is incumbant upon the NLG to produce a satisfactory history of its founders, not like what I have encountered so far. It doesn't look good. Nobs01 6 July 2005 00:40 (UTC)

Well, this isn't a polemic to which the NLG must respond. It is an encylopedia article which should make an objective report on the subject.

The objectivity which is lacking is the NLG's history, i.e. who were it's founding members. If the Hiss reference is to be deleted, then some refernce needs to be made about the evasive nature of the NLG publishing a straightforward account of its origins.Nobs01 6 July 2005 03:41 (UTC)

The NLG archives, including correspondence, agendas, minutes, etc., are located at the Tamiment Library at NYU. There is absolutely no evidence that the NLG has done anything to obscure its history. The fact that you couldn't find the founding documents of a nearly 70 year old organization by doing a google search is not evidence of any "evasive nature." Tamiment Library NLG Archive

Thank you, I appreciate your research very much. I have visited that site before in reference to Jack Fahy and a few others. My intention is not to go over ground the SISS already did in 1952, but if this article is to be expanded, it should begin with a section on the groups founding and history. To what extent Hiss had involvement, is not necessarily the focus of the organizations history. (Incidently, the site itself shows a partial gap from 1937-1947) Again, very much appreciated. Nobs01 6 July 2005 16:33 (UTC)

Hiss joined IJA early, not NLG: By 1937, when NLG officially launched, Hiss was already well established in Government (and in the Ware Group), so joining the NLG might have had a negative impact for either a Federal Government official or CP member (or spy): NLG was considered pro-Communist, etc., from its start. The fact is that Hiss had joined NLG's precursor, theInternational Juridical Association (IJA) by 1933, shortly after its formation in 1932 – and many of his lawyer friends (and soon-to-be fellow Ware Group members) had already joined (e.g., Lee Pressman). A main source for this information is long-time NLG member Ann Fagan Ginger in her biography of NLG co-founder (and IJA founder) Carol Weiss King, page 123. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aboudaqn (talk • contribs)

References

Sources

See also list of Talk:National Lawyers Guild/Archive 1#possible sources above in archives.

See WP:PRIMARY for the distinction between primary, secondary and tertiary sources:

1. Victor Rabinowitz and Tim Ledwith (editors) A History of the National Lawyers Guild: 1937-1987. New York: National Lawyers Guild, 1987

   This source, currently used in the lead paragraph, is a primary source (i.e. it is published by the subject of this article, NLG, and authored by insiders of that organisation). Primary sources can be used in the article, but with moderation. Defining an organisation by its own terms (what the lead paragraph currently looks like) does however give the impression that Wikipedia is being used here as a channel for the publicity of that organisation.

2. Martha F. Davis. "National Lawyers Guild", pp. 487–488 in Poverty in The United States: An Encyclopedia of History, Politics, and Policy edited by Alice O'Connor. ABC-CLIO, 2004. ISBN 1576075974

   Type of source: tertiary. Gives a short overview of the history of the organisation. Its slant ("Poverty in The United States") does however indicate that it only covers part of what we need for a neutral Wikipedia article.

3. Ann Fagan Ginger and Eugene M. Tobin (editors); Ramsey Clark (foreword). The National Lawyers Guild: From Roosevelt Through Reagan. Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 1988. ISBN 0877224889

   Type of source: secondary. I suppose one can assume that Ann Fagan Ginger is sympathetic towards the NLG causes, but it appears entirely possible to write an anti-NLG discourse almost exclusively based on this source (example). So probably the book itself takes no stance. Can we have more content in the Wikipedia article based on this book? Currently it is only used for a direct quote from the 1950 HUAC report (so used as a reference for primary-source material while this book could probably be used advantageously as a secondary source for general content in the article). Like source #1 it has however the disadvantage to not cover the history of the organisation beyond the late 1980s.

   Question: what is the author's last name: Ginger ("Ginger, Ann Fagan") or Fagan Ginger ("Fagan Ginger, Ann")?

4. John S. Wood (chair of the House Un-American Activities Committee). Report on the National Lawyers Guild: Legal Bulwark of the Communist Party (Report No. 3123 of the 81st Congress, 2nd Session, of the House of Representatives). Washington, DC: Committee on Un-American Activities of the U. S. House of Representatives, 1950.

   Primary source documenting the McCarthy era.

   Question: is it OK to list this source under "Wood" (the HUAC's chair who submitted this report to the House of Representatives) in the "Sources" section?

5. William Glaberson. "F.B.I. Admits Bid to Disrupt Lawyers Guild" in The New York Times, October 13, 1989

   Secondary source (picked from the #possible sources list above), allowing to bridge a little bit of the information gap for the half century between the McCarthy era an the 2010s, which is still insufficiently covered in the article thus far.

6. Jesse Rigsby. "NLG: The Legal Fifth Column" in FrontPageMag, April 25, 2003

   Despite a solid overview of historical facts, and its references (all to source #3 as mentioned above), this source is outspoken partisan (calling the history of the NLG "sordid" etc). The least that can be said is that its op-ed quality makes it a primary source, or, on the other hand, I'm not too sure we should be using this source: doesn't seem like Jesse Rigsby's opinions, published in the on-line journal of a polarising organisation, carry enough weight for inclusion in Wikipedia. The bare facts on NLG, which here are enveloped in an opinionated discourse, can surely be found elsewhere, i.e. in sources that concentrate on historical facts rather than on their own opinions.

7. Martin Dies (chairman of Special Committee on Un-American Activities). "145. National Lawyers Guild", pp. 1267–1279 in Appendix — Part IX: Communist Front Organizations, with Special Reference to the National Citizens Political Action Committee (Fourth Section and Fifth Section: Pages 1049–1648) of Investigation of Un-American Propaganda Activities in the United States: Special Committee on Un-American Activities, House of Representatives, Seventy-eighth Congress, Second Session, on H. Res. 282. Washington, DC: United States Government Printing Office, 1944

   Same type of source as #4. Currently used 6 times: some of these references could possibly be supplemented and/or replaced by references to secondary sources?

   Also, similar question: OK to list this under Dies (chairman of the Special Committee that is known as Dies Committee)?

--Francis Schonken (talk) 06:10, 6 August 2017 (UTC); + #3 07:55, 6 August 2017 (UTC); + #4 09:39, 6 August 2017 (UTC); + #5 12:31, 6 August 2017 (UTC); + #6 13:42, 6 August 2017 (UTC); + #7 16:29, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Open invitation to re-outline and re-complete NLG entry?

Would anyone like to join me in creating a new outline for NLG and then filling in details?

It seems this entry has enough interest – and has also suffered from many rather needless fights over content...

Do people have examples of other entries on similarly mixed-reputation organizations to recommend?

I'm interested in filling out the history and membership of NLG prior to 1950 as factually as possible.

Clearly, if only thanks to HUAC reports on the NLG and related groups up to 1959, there is plenty of "negative" information to collate and state clearly (and clearly attributed). There is also an online history of NLG, published by the NLG, which I have started to mine (see new paragraph on December 1936). There is Ann Fagan Ginger's biography of Carol Weiss King. There must be many biographies about the many, diverse members of NLG over the years upon which to build both this entry and those related biographical entries. If we get membership at points clear, we can find people interested in those members...

Today is August 6, 2017: please reply by August 31, 2017. Let's get a little intelligent, coordinated crowd-sourcing going! --Aboudaqn (talk) 16:58, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

2020 protests

Information related to the 2020 protests regarding the murder of George Floyd, police brutality in general, Donald Trump and very specifically Portland Oregon involving NLG should be added to this article.Juneau Mike (talk) 21:37, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Do you have examples of sources that discuss this? --JBL (talk) 22:50, 16 August 2020 (UTC)