Talk:Nüwa/Archive 1

Archive 1

Other flood accounts

Delete Random Speculation

I'm removing all comparative speculation, even though it is obviously more cautiously worded than before. Reasons: 1. Comparison does not provide meaningful insight. The few superficial similarities between myths is presented without any "impact" and thus adds nothing to our understanding of Nuwa. 2. Comparison implies connection. By presenting a comparison it associates these two myths in the minds of the lay reader. We should not be laying the foundations for conspiracy theories about the Egyptian origions of Chinese civilization, or vice versa. 3. These appear to be "independent research" although that is really generous. A more accurate term would be random speculation. There are no citations. 4. Comparisons are superficial and over-generalized. Saying that there is similarity between these myths is like saying "Burt Reynolds is similar to Hitler" because they both have facial hair situated between nose and mouth. So I'm deleting the whole ridiculous section, unless someone can make a compelling case for why we should be comparing NvWa to any western mythology. --Ouyangwulong (talk) 06:09, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

You certainly have my blessing ;-) Not sure you got the whole point of the 'cautious re-wording', though: The idea was to refute the whole Nuwa/Noah thing and to demonstrate once and for all why it's obviously based in nothing but wishful thinking and sloppy association. Just deleting it might prompt someone to simply smuggle the 'original' version back in (hope not, but it happened before - see the history of this article - with people claiming their 'ideas' got 'suppressed').--Hakseng (talk) 05:09, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Similarities

Similarities between Fuxi-Nuwa and Enki-Ninki of Sumerian mythology include the creation of man from clay, the serpentine features, the rescue of man from the flood, and the return of knowledge and kingship to man afterwards. Fuxi-Nuwa appear to be echoes of Sumerian lore. Both were also brother-sister and husband-wife as well. jdwilkins

Nüwa and Deluge traditions

This isn't a Judeo-Christian encyclopedia. The wording in this section assumes stories told in Genesis is the originator of the legends of other cultures. It needs to be reworded or taken out completely.

Are you sure you meant that to apply to the section "Nüwa and Deluge traditions"? I can possibly see your point in the "Is Nüwa related to Noah?" section, but even that begins with a caveat. The paragraph starting, "Those who read the Bible literally..." may fit better in another article; for that could allow a more formal, detailed, and consistant treatment (perhaps in Deluge traditions?). Incidentally, that phrase "Those who read the Bible literally" was not an assumption of the readers at all; it is in itself a caveat. The only unequivocal assumptions were in the phrase "The wording in this section assumes...". mamgeorge 04:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The "Nüwa and Deluge traditions" section in general focuses primarily on Judeo-Christian mythology. It's also utterly ridiculous. It entirely confuses the nature of the various Nüwa myths- namely that they are completely separate myths. In one story Nüwa saves the earth from a catastrophe (not a global flood, but a general imbalance of nature, with flooding as one symptom), and only in later myths is she the wife of Fuxi.--128.119.7.141 (talk) 05:27, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Is that so? I also see the mentioning of pre-Christian and non-European mythology. And there is a proposition in the paragraph on the Mythological connections in the article that says: 'while in the myth of Nüwa the creation of mankind is not linked to any preceding disaster and disconnected from the 'repair of heaven' motive,' while the Wiki-article on Fu Xi does mention a preceding disaster. Yuhana (talk) 21:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

The Nüwa Legend and The Noah Flood

The following material was recently added in good faith but unfortunately it does not seem to meet Wikipedia's requirements for reliable sources. I've moved it here to the talk page, as the new editor has obviously put a lot of work into this and similar contributions but needs some guidance from more experienced editors with style, sourcing, original research etc. Thanks.—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 01:29, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Opps, another editor beat me to it... ah well.—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 01:40, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I've also moved the contributions made to Noah's Ark and Pangu to a subsections here and here. The contributions to Flood myth and Queen of the South seemed to be mostly similar to what's already here, but if anything is needed from them, follow those links; or just use the View History tab at the Flood myth and Queen of the South (biblical reference) articles... Nothing's ever really deleted from Wikipedia, so thanks for bearing with us.—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 02:22, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I removed it for one more reason, it is purely copy-and-paste from the unreliable source, without the translated sources in the very top of that. If it is to stay, it needed a total revamp, rewritten for not being a complete WP:copyvio. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher^talk 03:16, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Copy-edit

Hi everyone! I came to this article to help copy-edit the "sources" section because it was in the backlog of articles needing copy edit, but I decided to replace the copyedit tag with a rewrite tag, and leave comments, instead.

Suggestions for improvement:

1. Please follow the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lists of works) for a formatting guide.
2. Please use an invisible comment to communicate with another editor, and not "(Note: please maintain pattern of date, author, book, chapter, account, and detail for future additions.)". Using <!-- TEXT HERE --> will allow editors, and not readers, to see the text.
3. If these works are sources used also for the rest of the article, please consider placing them in a citation section.

Okie that's all, and feel free to say hi to me on my talk page *grin* -Samuel tan85 (talk) 03:54, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree - might have a crack at it later. Another suggestion: how about a table? and at the end of the article. Manytexts (talk) 22:10, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Citations

Does anyone have more direct references to the stories? The way Nuwa is commonly represented does not fit the source documents, as far as I am aware. The Nuwa character is thought by some to be a tribal designation, as a creator or a goddess as typically portrayed. mamgeorge 20:00, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There need not necessarily be a "source document", as Nuwa is a folk goddess, and a lot of legends are gleaned from folk sources. She is not a historical or litarary figure. Mandel 09:48, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

The conclusions that Nuwa is a creator, a goddess, a myth, or even feminine are all assumptions. The point of the documentation is to provide the basis for those assumptions. Others looking at the basis for the stories may uncover a more consistent conclusion. The classifications are ultimately misleading.

mamgeorge 16:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Although I did not originate this article, I provided specific details for the authors and books since the above posts. If you believe more is needed, please be specific on what exactly needs to be added beyond date, author, book, chapter, title, details. The two sources I could not identify I did not add; eventually they may need to be removed. mamgeorge 21:18, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Delete

At the moment, there's no citation for anything in this article. As it stands, it should be deleted. PiCo 02:52, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

There are procedures and due process to do everything on wikipedia. Please use them. The article cannot be summarily blanked or deleted unless you put up a deletion request that people will vote on. I would suggest that first you use one of the templates available to request sources or documentation. I have no idea where the original contributors got their information, but I assume good faith that they did not make it up on their own, as I have also read similar information in many, many books that cover Chinese mythology. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting AfD, but I am saying that this is a seriously weak article so long as it it has absolutely no references. PiCo 22:57, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah.. Well I agree with you fully on that point, and someone should definitely take the time to look some of this stuff up and get the proper sources, preferably the contributors who first put it here...! But I have no doubts that it all could be sourced, it just looks weak without it... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 00:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Proposed

The stories in "wife", "creator", "maintainer" should be cited; preferably with the sources. The point of the dated references was to show (among other things) the development of this myth over time. Merely saying "it is said" could be a wrong or confused recollection. This is an encyclopedia article. Although one goal could be "catalog Nuwa myths", those wanting to understand the development of the myth may prefer "catalog Nuwa development as a myth".

Without citations on the supplied quotations, they become stories only. Perhaps unquoted stories should be removed? Is that what Pico (above) was intending? mamgeorge 16:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Dating

Eiorgiomugini, I see your point. Some of the dates refer to the individual, some to the dynasty (because a date for the person is not available). I can eplicitly change that.

I do not know what "bitter" referes to in your edit description.

Thanks, mamgeorge 14:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

merge Nu Wa Niang Niang

merge. Nu Wa Niang Niang was established for the role of Nüwa in Fengshen Yanyi. Do we really need it? Even though we may need to establish a so specific article, the title does not limit its scope to Fengshen Yanyi. Maybe Nüwa (Fengshen Yanyi) will be better. --Neo-Jay 00:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

IPA

...is WP:UNDUE and unhelpful in the lead, since pinyin is already phonetic. English speakers with just say /nuwɑ/ or /njuwɑ/ anyway. The Mandarin IPA is good material for the infobox or Wiktionary entry, though. — LlywelynII 09:49, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Chinese in lead

...shouldn't be there per WP:MOS-ZH since we already have the infobox taking care of all of the characters and various romanizations.

The English form "Nugua" should be mentioned somewhere in the article but the lead sentence probably gives it UNDUE importance given how uncommon it is when discussing this figure. Nuwa, Nu-wa, Nu Wa, and even Wa are all more common in the material I've seen. — LlywelynII 09:49, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Present worship

or important commemoration should be mentioned, if there is any. Similarly, it'd be interesting to know how the story is explained in Chinese textbooks or current popular works.

There's also at least a few spots somehow connected to her around the country. The Nüwa Imperial Palace (娲皇宫景区, Wa Huanggong Jingqu, with the official but Chinglish translation "Wahuang Palace") is a AAAAA tourist attraction in Hebei, even though it doesn't seem to have many English descriptions. — LlywelynII 09:56, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Work for Wikiedu

On first impression, I think the whole article could use a lot of re-organization. It's a bit of a mess, and while it has an amount of sources and summarizes what each text states of Nuwa, I don't know how well each of them is paraphrased and want to look more into the sources to check what is being said and how to reword it. I think it would be better to structure the article as:

-Lead -Description (much more generalized) -Mentions in Literature -Current Relevance

Or something similar. Currently it just feels like listing out things from sources, there's no flow to the information and it's a bit hard to understand. The "See Also" section called Nüwa Mends the Heavens could probably be merged and transformed into one stronger article, there are actually more sources on the extra page than there are on the original. It mentions her in Red Mansion Dream, which was something I definitely wanted to include, and even more cultural references I hadn't known about. Vxwei (talk) 21:23, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Upon review, the "See Also" page Nüwa Mends the Heavens actually doesn't have a lot of references/sources, at least not ones with links that I can access. I think if I can find the information from a more reliable source that can still be accessed then I'll include it if the pages are merged, if not then I wonder about keeping the information. Vxwei (talk) 10:00, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Nüwa Mends the Heavens

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I'm launching this merge per a request from Vxwei, who has stated that much of the content at Nüwa Mends the Heavens repeats what is in this main article on the mother goddess. Given that there is some redundancy and the size of each page, it would be best to merge the two pages together into a single comprehensive article. Vxwei is currently working on a draft for the merged pages as well. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 13:14, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

That would be best in my opinion. Both articles are not yet comprehensive enough to be split off from each other.--Cold Season (talk) 05:04, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

The draft at User:Vxwei/nuwa seems to have been abandoned incomplete, and Vxwei last contributed a year ago. I looked at merging the draft over, but there are still editing notes and some images present on the existing page which are not on the draft. Overall, I support the merge, either done simply or by improving the draft then moving it over. Klbrain (talk) 09:09, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.