Talk:Muhajir (Pakistan)

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Recent Vandalism[edit]

I noticed that @Sylvester Millner keeps Vandalising this page such as yesterday:

  • Deleted facts from the lead section
  • Messed up The Feroz Ahmed citation I fixed
  • Added Punjabi as A muhajir language (It is clearly stated punjabis are not muhajirs)
  • Added Christianity as a religion (It is clearly stated only muslims are muhajirs)
  • Reverted my merger of the linguistic groups section
  • Removed Rohingya people from the linguistic group for no apparent reason
  • Reverted my copyedit of the Bangladesh sub-section
  • Removed the involvement of urdu-speaking people in mughal sub-section
  • Removed a reliable source from line 177
  • Reverted my copyedit of the 1988-2016 sub-section
  • Deleted the whole Social and political views section (all sourced)
  • Deleted half of Education section (all sourced)

If you have a reason for solid reason for these edits please state it here. FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 04:32, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:Flamealpha123, your edits in the lead are highly promotional and not supported by reliable sources, but by promotional commentary. Multiple sources cited and even linked in further reading clearly state they are in fact not an ethnicity. The sourced edit in the infobox clearly lists East Punjabis as one of the Muhajir ethnic groups. You also re-wrote the lead section making it seem like that Muhajirs can speak Gujarati, Rajesthani, Punjabi etc. rather than these being their native languages. This is misleading information and discounting them as their native language. They also don't speak Urdu natively as that's only one of their native language. Don't fill the article up with misleading information. What you've been doing is going against WP:NPOV by putting in promotional edits and misquoting sources as well as WP:Vandalism by removing reliably sourced edits and replacing them with poorly sourced and even misrepresenting sources. You have got to stop this.--Sylvester Millner (talk) 01:17, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I was talking about the edits i mentioned above such as the revert of copyedits, any reason for that? Or maybe you dont want the muhajir article looking good. FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 05:32, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The term usually does refer to them as a "multi ethnic group of people" and may refer to East Punjabis (who migrated after partition) per multiple scholarly sources like this one:
https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/37127
But it is also an ethnic group if we're only talking about Sindh based Muhajirs who have largely adopted this identity as an "ethnic group", also according to many reliable sources.
For example: https://www.dawn.com/news/1100948
This article needs to be updated to include them all and specify this information Uzek (talk) 15:53, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/37127 is not reliable source, it is a mirror of an old wikipedia page FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 05:42, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Look at this https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhajir_(Pakistan)&oldid=1010745678 99% same as this https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/37127 FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 05:44, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Other sources exist too (on this very page). Like [1] . Plus they are already mentioned in the history section "First stage (August–November 1947)". And look at this scholarly source which talks of the term being originally used for generally all migrants, but the Punjab based ones assimilated and don't use the term anymore. [2]
Also, another is this source which speaks of the term "Muhajir" being evolved over time as an ethnic identity exclusively in Sindh, but not Punjab [3] Uzek (talk) 05:08, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
the first source (jaffrelot) you gave says only gujaratis and urdudaans are muhajirs
the second says east punjabis stopped calling themselves muhajir FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 19:41, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh I see what you mean. The term muhajir was used for Punjabis. Yes we can add this to the article that the punjabi migrants used the term muhajir for some time, but we cant add punjabi as a muhajir language FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 04:20, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Uzek: it was included and even sourced, but User:Flamealpha123 removed them as well as misrepresented a number of sources. I myself found a second source for East Punjabi Muhajirs. Unless that user justifies their edits, I am entitled to revert them.--Sylvester Millner (talk) 03:42, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Uzek: can you please copy and paste the changes you made to the article talk page for saving. I'll explain why I want you to save them here.--Sylvester Millner (talk) 03:24, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mean changes I made to the article? If yes, then they were mostly copyedits/rewordings of existing content. And removal of non encyclopedic unsourced content. (Plus minor sentence additions here and there) Uzek (talk) 05:17, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Uzek: save it anyways. Because I don't want there to be confusion or conflicting edits later. If I accidentally remove what you did, then copy and paste it back rather than reverting to avoid messing the article. Can we agree to go like that?--Sylvester Millner (talk) 04:46, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. I remember the changes. I don't think reverting will be necessary Uzek (talk) 17:44, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article written on fanpoint view[edit]

Overall I believe strongly that i have found some biases in the article that might apply with the Wiki:NPOV, as a member of Wikipedia community i believe that it is strongly needed for the article to be reedited with a neutral point of view (NPOV) to ensure that information is presented in a way that is knowledgeable for all.

Here are some lines which i strongly believe can be of a fan's point of view:

Article title
The Muhajirs are the most educated, and affluent ethnic group in Pakistan. Because of this, they constituted a influential community in the earlier years of post-partition Pakistan.

Geographic distribution, Pakistan
The muhajir dominance of Urban sindh has led to that region being referred to as Urdu-speaking Sindh.

History
On 14 August 1947, the muhajir led Pakistan movement succeeded in creating an independent state for Indian Muslims under the banner of Pakistan.

  • 1958-1970

The percentage of Muhajirs in the civil service declined while the percentage of non-muhajirs increased.

Society

  • Economic status

and pay more taxes than any other ethnic group.

  • Education

Muhajirs are seen as the most-educated and literate ethnic group in Pakistan. ⭐️ Starkex ⭐️ 📧 ✍️ 06:10, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Everything is cited FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 04:08, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This reply was highly unprofessional and written from a biased view nevertheless I appreciate you're opinion, this reply explains Muhajir inferiority complexes that have existed since 1947 against every other group of Pakistan that doesn't speak Urdu.
Thanks.
⭐️ Starkex ⭐️ 📧 ✍️ 16:20, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nice one. Most educated and richest ethnic group feeling inferior. But whatever, lets get on with this so-called Fan POV
  • The Muhajirs are the most educated, and affluent ethnic group in Pakistan. Because of this, they constituted a influential community in the earlier years of post-partition Pakistan. This has been cited and is a fact, like US is the most influential country in the world. This is a plain fact. Read the rest of the article and you will understand how muhajirs were influential and btw urdu the national language of pakistan is native to only one ethnicity of Pakistan: muhajirs.
  • The muhajir dominance of Urban sindh has led to that region being referred to as Urdu-speaking Sindh. I changed this slightly to this region is sometimes referred to as Urdu-speaking Sindh because of its large muhajir population
  • On 14 August 1947, the muhajir led Pakistan movement succeeded in creating an independent state for Indian Muslims under the banner of Pakistan. Cited and plain fact, muhajirs dominated AIML and made pakistan.
  • The percentage of Muhajirs in the civil service declined while the percentage of non-muhajirs increased. Removed this because this was irrelevant, the paragraph was talking about elections not jobs.
  • and pay more taxes than any other ethnic group Cited and fact not POV
FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 06:41, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Starkex: I left a warning on that user's page. Not all Muhajirs speak Urdu and not all of them are Muslims and that's what's the problem with this persons edits.--Sylvester Millner (talk) 04:38, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Understanding issues[edit]

@Starkex: I also left a message User:Flamealpha123 to avoid personalization of differences. Said that, let us come to content part. Starkex, Article subsections Muhajir (Pakistan)#Economic status and Muhajir (Pakistan)#Education seem to be well cited. And summary statements in lead do not need citation if supported by citations in rest of body text. Do you have any objections on citations used in these two subsections? Bookku (talk) 09:34, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, nevertheless i appreciate you're contributions towards a neutral and knowledgeable WikiPedia. Starkex (talk) 18:13, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The sources seem like personal commentary and not published research; therefore they are not neutral and thereby not reliable.--Sylvester Millner (talk) 23:43, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
please spe ify so they can be replaced FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 05:19, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To me most of them appear to be scholarly sources, especially the ones in education FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 05:21, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@ToBeFree: this discussion is another complaint against Flamalpha's edits. That user tried to mislead you into thinking this is a complaint against my edits. It's not the case at all. If you look at it properly, this is a repeat of my complaint above in the previous discussion before this one. This discussion is not endorsing Flamealpha's edits as the user tried to make you believe. Rather it is a repeating concern against their edits.--Sylvester Millner (talk) 00:00, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnic groups[edit]

Muhajirs are a ethnic groups? Please provide citations and read any of the citations used such as brittanica or anything else FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 14:19, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are multiple citations, which you've been distorting. Also there are a minority of Christians amongst them.--Sylvester Millner (talk) 23:40, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Give me one citation that says MUHAJIRS ARE CHRISTIANS or anything like that. We can't just use sources referring to Indian migrants as not all are muhajirs (see ethnic definition of muhajirs). FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 05:23, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 29 April 2023[edit]

people who came from India to Pakistan were Refugees not migrants. 94.202.214.83 (talk) 14:11, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Actualcpscm (talk) 15:34, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Question Regarding Muhajirs being Ethnolinguistic[edit]

The description of the page it is written as "Ethnolinguistic group...", I think there are mass errors with the description Muhajirs being ethnolinguistic, @Flamealpha123 do you understand the difference between Ethnoreligious and Ethnolinguistic and have you compared them both in contrast with the history of Muhajirs since 1947? I think you don't understand why migration of Indianized Muslims from India to Pakistan happened. ⭐️ Starkex ⭐️ 📧 ✍️ 12:28, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:NPA, before mentioning me again. As for muhajir identity being a primarily linguistic one:
FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 16:45, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I never made an personal attack on you, The reason I referred to you only is because in the span of months most of the edits in the article have been done by you only. That seems really biased. ⭐️ Starkex ⭐️ 📧 ✍️ 13:56, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Biased because I want to help Wikipedia grow? And btw what is this supposed to mean? I think you don't understand why migration of Indianized Muslims from India to Pakistan happened. Is this about my edits or me? Also look at this https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhajir_(Pakistan)&diff=prev&oldid=1143511618 you were the one who called us a ethnolinguistic group. FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 17:19, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extension needed[edit]

@Deepfriedokra: since you're the admin who semi-protected, I think it's a good idea to extend the semi-protection. Because between the time you protected and now, a number of accounts have edit warred. Mostly it was one promotional editor. But regardless of that user, this is an article that's edit warred enough on, so I don't think allowing the semi-protection to end is a good idea. It's better for this article to remain semi-protected for the foreseeable future. Sylvester Millner (talk) 05:40, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2 months left in current protection -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:23, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Deepfriedokra:, do you think that's a wise thing? Maybe it should be extended, considering it's being edit warred over enough with the current protection level. I don't think it's safe to be left unprotected.--Sylvester Millner (talk) 17:57, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Sylvester Millner: You could request at WP:RFPP -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:29, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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