Talk:Moshe Feiglin

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Right-Wing[edit]

  • There seems to be some issue with whether or not Feiglin should be classified as a "right-wing" politician, with one poster suggesting that this term was a "stereotype." I feel that the fact that right-wing can sometimes be used as a stereotype does not detract from its potential to be used as an accurate descriptor, as well. If you look at the Israeli political spectrum, Manhigut is clearly on the right, and Feiglin represents the wing of the religious right (as opposed to Netenyahu's secular right) in the Likud. I am reverting the edit for the time being; anyone with thoughts on this please feel free to contribute to the discussion. ShalomShlomo 15:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Feiglin represents both religious and secular. Manhigut Yehudit is a Jewish movement representing Jewish values making the labels religious and secular irrelevant. Adam10312 (talk) 01:52, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Profession?[edit]

  • I (not the same person as above) would be delighted if someone would add information about what Feiglin does for a living. I haven't been able to find out.
I don't really have time to translate, but the hebrew wikipedia mentions that he had a start-up company, of which he transfered ownership to a friend when he went into politics (I presume this friend gives him a stipend, or that his wife works for both their living)Daniel tzvi 06:17, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

i beileve he was in the window pane buisness for skycrapers the only way i would know this is from his book zo artzeinu

When I've heard him speak he has mentioned on occasion that he set up a business cleaning the windows of high-rise buildings, which he sold to a friend / employee. Beyond that, I've heard that Manhigut covers his travel and business-related expenses, in comments about the budget, but have no verifiable sources for either piece of information. (I share the fact here and not on the page so that curious people can know.) Whether he also receives honoraria for his appearances, and/or compensation for his articles, is an open question. -- 192.115.133.116 (talk) 20:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Karnei Shomron, Israel[edit]

While it is accurate to say (as Wikipedia's entry on Karnei Shomron does) that it is an Israeli local council, it is not accurate to describe it (as the entry on Feiglin does) as "Karnei Shomron, Israel". The fact is that Karnei Shomron is in the occupied West Bank and that its status awaits the outcome of final status negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Until then, it would be best to say that Feiglin lives in the "Israeli West Bank settlement of Karnei Shomron". 203.5.59.1 09:07, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If its status awaits the outcome, etc., then it is can be termed disputed. Labels such as "occupied" (and, strictly speaking, "settlement") are POV. We can give the location an address simply by specifying it geographically. Hertz1888 06:11, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clarify, or rather to say that it is only as clear as the writer makes it. There is no doubt that Karnei Shomron is in Israel and always will be, though it is not within the widely recognized 1949 borders of the 'State of Israel'. Karnei Shomron is also in Palestine like the country of Jordan remains. Depends on how you look at things. --Shuki 18:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1) Saying its status awaits a final outcome does not mean it can be termed "disputed" rather than "occupied". At present the status of the territory under international law is occupied. The only POV which refuses to acknowledge this occupation is the Israeli one, hence the dispute. What is more, Karnei Shomron is not annexed in the (disputed) way that East Jerusalem was.

2) The term "settlement" is understood to mean the creation of housing or the takeover of existing housing in occupied territory by the population of the occupying power. There is nothing POV about it.

3) I'm not sure what "specifying it geographically" means, since we are talking about a political designation. Shuki seems to think that when people read "Karnei Shomron, Israel" they will understand that Eretz Israel (the Land of Israel) rather than Madinat Israel (the State of Israel) is intended. By this understanding, many addresses in Jordan should have the word "Israel" added at the end. However since Eretz Israel's geographic limits are not obvious, and most readers of Wikipedia will understand the word Israel to refer primarily to the state, my point stands.

4) I'm not sure why 'state of Israel' is in commas for Shuki but Jordan isn't. -- preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.5.59.1 on 10:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.115.133.116 (talk) [reply]

Yossi Sarid and Hitler[edit]

There's mention in the article of Yossi Sarid's claim that Feiglin "praised Hitler". Feiglin sued the last journalist who made this false claim, and only lost because of freedom of the press issues.

In a recent TV interview, Feiglin explained where the false claim came from. It's in Hebrew, but I can link to the video if you like. Back when he was running Zo Artzenu, a reporter (Ada Oshpiz) told him that demonstrating against the Oslo accords was "undemocratic", because they were okayed by a democratically elected government. Feiglin pointed out to him that being democratically elected didn't make all decisions of a government "democratic". He gave Hitler as an example. Hitler was elected democratically, and in the beginning, he gave the people what he promised. The trains ran on time, he gave them a sense of national pride.

Basically, he was using Hitler to show that a government being elected democratically doesn't make it automatically legitimate. But the reporter took what he said out of context, reversed it, and claimed that it was "praise" of Hitler.

Someone took out the term "alleged" because there's a source. But the source is not reliable. It's an article written by a political opponent of Feiglin's, and is Sarid's opinion. As such, alleged is the very most you can say about the claim. Frankly, I don't think the statement should be in this article at all, but I'd rather discuss it before yanking it. -LisaLiel (talk) 22:35, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is already qualified as Sarid's claim. Maybe we could reword it to make it more clear. -- Nudve (talk) 06:21, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Feiglin on Revocation of Israeli Arabs' Citizenship[edit]

01:09, 19 March 2013 (UTC)Wikiflyboyman (talk) This is in response to Shaulbehr's change of 18 March 2013, which deleted the statement in the first paragraph that Feiglin supports revoking the citizenship of Israeli Arabs, which Shaulbehr describes as a "grossly inaccurate representation of Feiglin's views on Arab citizens of Israel."

The best evidence that Feiglin has supported disenfranchisement of Israeli Arabs is the posting in 2003 on the Manhigut Yehudit website (Hebrew version) of his support for replacing the Knesset with a bi-cameral legislature, whose upper house, which will control all "national affairs", will be "composed exclusively of Jews." The article was entitled "Feiglin's First Hundred Days as Prime Minister." Point three in the program states that he will enact a new "Basic Law" which will set forth a detailed proposal for a constitution. The Law will replace the at-large election of the Knesset with regional representatives, and would create a lower house to handle municipal issues, and an upper house to enact national policy. The posting was taken down on Dec. 9, 2008, the day after Feiglin won 20th place in the Likud primaries. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/feiglin-s-missing-manifesto-israel-should-quit-un-cut-off-water-to-palestinians-1.259202. However, the posting had been archived by Israeli scholar Tomer Frisco prior to being removed. The archived copy appears here (Hebrew): http://7minim.wordpress.com/2012/12/03/feiglin_plan/. I would welcome a better translation than the one afforded by Google translator, as I am not a Hebrew speaker.

The Feiglin quotes set forth below also support the conclusion that Feiglin advocates revocation of Arab citizenship, with a few exceptions, as stated in my original entry.

Feiglin's 2005 book "The War of Dreams" sets forth his plan for disenfranchising Israeli Arabs:

“Israeli citizenship to Jews only […] the immediate expulsion of any person of another people who claims any sort of sovereignty in the Land of Israel” – Ibid., p. 436. (The book was published in Hebrew only. The translation can be found here: http://972mag.com/a-truly-jewish-democracy-on-the-ideology-of-likuds-moshe-feiglin/62170/

Also from the book: "They [the Israeli Arabs] will never, never be fully equal citizens, in the national sense of the word.”<ref>{{cite book|last=Feiglin|first=Moshe|title=מלחמת חלומות (The War of Dreams)|year=2005|publisher=Milkhemet Ha’Khalomot|location=Jerusalem, Israel|page=464|accessdate=19 March 2013|language=Hebrew|chapter=The Jewish State – Democracy and regime|date=26.1.1998}}</ref>

Other quotes:

“Why should non-Jews have a say in the policy of a Jewish state?”<ref>{{cite web|last=Goldberg|first=Jeffrey|title=Among the Settlers|url=http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/05/31/040531fa_fact2_a?currentPage=4|publisher=The New Yorker|accessdate=19 March 2013}}</ref>

“Ahmad Tibi precisely defined the line that separates the Arabs who are invited to live with us here with mutual respect and all the human rights that they deserve, and those Arabs who will have to go.” "The Israeli needs the Arab to allow him to forget that he is a Jew. For if it is impossible to be an Israeli Arab, that means that only Jews can be Israeli, leaving us stuck with our old Jewish identity that we have tried so hard to escape."<ref>{{cite web|last=Feiglin|first=Moshe|title=I Am the Master Here|url=http://www.jewishisrael.org/eng_contents/articles/72/article7221.html|publisher=Manhigut Yehudit|accessdate=19 March 2013}}</ref>

“We are busy fighting for Yesha, and refuse to recognize the more dangerous front against the fifth column inside Israel.” "We established a state so that we could stop being different and start being normal. If only Jews can be Israelis, then we will never be normal. . . .The fundamental solution is leadership that is not looking for normalcy. The solution is leadership that emphasizes our Jewish identity. Paradoxically, it is only when the Arabs understand that the Israelis do not need them to help them to forget that they are Jews - will we be able to live here in peace with non-Jews who unequivocally accept the fact that Israel is a Jewish state." <ref>{{cite web|last=Feiglin|first=Moshe|title=Israel's Establishment Needs the Arabs|url=http://www.jewishisrael.org/eng_contents/articles/69/article001.html|accessdate=19 March 2013}}</ref>

"Israeli citizenship will be granted to those non-Jews who have tied their fate to Israel and who have proven their loyalty to the State.” <ref>{{cite web|title=The Feiglin Program|url=http://www.jewishisrael.org/eng_contents/articles/73/article7320.html|accessdate=19 March 2013}}</ref> (Although this quote is in the context of what Israeli policy should be toward the Arabs who live in Judea, Samaria and Gaza after they are annexed by the Israeli state, there is no indication in any of Feiglin's statements that this principle should not also be applied to Arab citizens of Israel.)

Unless Mr. Shaulbehr can come up with some evidence that Feiglin does not support citizenship revocation, I intend to revert, with the citations set forth above.

Wikiflyboyman (talk) 21:43, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a campaign website[edit]

Whoever put in the first six footnotes, which are un-sourced, but appear to be quotes from the Manhigut platform, is really doing Feiglin a disservice.

It would be better to just give the source and then a snippet quote. As it is, it reads like a campaign web page. Blather like "Feiglin advocates predicating Israeli policy on three principles: Liberty, Jewish Identity and restoring Meaning into Israeli life" is meaningless. What Israeli Jewish politician does NOT support liberty, Jewish identity and restoring meaning? That in no way distinguishes Feiglin, who in fact avoids empty rhetoric and has built his movement on blunt and precise statements of policy. What's important (and unique) is HOW Feiglin proposes to so those things.

However, since Manhigut has completely changed its website as of a few days ago, all of the cites to it are now dead links.

Those of you out there who want this page to be a campaign poster for Manhigut would better serve his cause by providing the appropriate cites to the new Manhigut website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiflyboyman (talk • contribs) 03:50, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

POV issues[edit]

I echo the comment made above; the prose reads like a campaign website, not a Wikipedia article. As such, I've tagged it as not complying with NPOV. Sceptre (talk) 20:36, 5 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I fully agree both with you and the user above. This whole article is based almost entirely on material from the subject's support website. That is not how to write articles on Wikipedia. I'm removing this material as per WP:NPOV.Jeppiz (talk) 18:31, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Israeli criminal"[edit]

A couple of editors have taken it upon themselves to add the category Israeli criminals to this article. This is blatant POV pushing. A person who is convicted for non-violent civil disobedience is not a "criminal". And that arrest and conviction are already mentioned with undue weight in the article.

Nelson Mandela's article does not include the category South American criminals, despite the violent nature of his crimes. Mahatma Gandhi's article, ditto. If we were to go through Wikipedia and mark every article about a person who was once convicted of anything as a criminal, it would be ridiculous. But, of course, that's not going to happen, because this is a specific action taken towards a specific politician for specific reasons.

If that goes on one more time, I'm taking this to the dispute resolution noticeboard. I'll ramp up measures from there if need be. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 01:12, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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"the leader of libertarian Zionist party Zehut"[edit]

Couple of issues with this. First, isn't that party now defunct, and the subject back in regular-authoritarian-variety-Zionist party Likud? Secondly, even if "libertarian" was that party's self-descriptor, a quick look at his assorted far-right views makes it clear it's at best WP:UNDUE for the lead sentence, and more accurately, wildly inaccurate, misleading and self-serving. "Even more authoritarian, only with capitalism and cannabis" seems closer to the mark. So this seems to need a rework on both counts. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 00:35, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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