Talk:Monologist

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Diseuse[edit]

There are a number of references to this type of entertainment (diseuse) in Wikipedia, and I thought it would be helpful to create a link to better understand its meaningJohn F. Barlow (talk) 04:51, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed; I would expect that there are adequate sources to expand this article significantly, perhaps some discussion of the development of the use of Diseuses(is that the correct plural)? could be added? VQuakr (talk) 04:59, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not a problem. I will attempt to expand this article in a few days John F. Barlow (talk) 05:29, 6 August 2011 (UTC) I have added a bit more to this article. Further research may be beyond my resources John F. Barlow (talk) 05:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC) Possibly John F. Barlow (talk) 03:26, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Diseuse should be defined as "Diseuse a French word for monologist, an exact synonym for monologist, a word which belongs in French, not English Wikipedia." Get real! This might make a good subcategory for monologist, but it has no business being an article on its own! Dutchman Schultz (talk) 01:50, 9 August 2011 (UTC) You may have a point, but why the anger? John F. Barlow (talk) 03:26, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is no article at monologist; it is a redirect to monologue. You may have a valid point that this article would be easier to expand if moved to "monologist;" is that what you are proposing? VQuakr (talk) 03:16, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly John F. Barlow (talk) 03:26, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, try this experiment. Do a Google search for Diseuse: all you get are definitions for the word. Try a Google NEWS search for Diseuse: everything is in French. This indicates to me that Diseuse is not a word that anyone actually uses in English. The word we are looking for here is monologist. Dutchman Schultz (talk) 04:12, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Another experiment would be go to Google Books and type in diseuse actress -disease or go to Google News Archives, 2,840 English language hits. The term has been used on the English speaking stage and in American and British print since the 1890s. Most all of my source material about noted diseuses came from American and British books or newsprint. My original attempt was to define a now faded form of entertainment that's roots are most likely French or at least European. I will look in to incorporating diseuse under an umbrella monologist page. And by the way Dutch let's drop the "Get Real" comments. John F. Barlow (talk) 04:54, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Dictionary of World Literature: Criticism, Forms, Technique” by Joseph Twadell Shipley (1964), defined monodrama, as a dramatic piece for one player usually called a monologue. The player is called a monologist or (fem) diseuse. John F. Barlow (talk) 04:57, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In defining "monologist" , as I see it, we're covering the gamut between Hamlet's "To be or not to be" and Jay Leno's nightly opening monologue. Diseuses are storytellers usually with music and though technically monologist, I believe they deserve a separate page as do their male counterparts, possibly under Storytelling or Dramatic Monologists. John F. Barlow (talk) 04:35, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your own "Dictionary of World Literature: Criticism, Forms, Technique" says that "The player is called a monologist or (fem) diseuse." So — saying "monologist" and "diseuse" are totally separate words, deserving their own full articles, would be the same as saying "aviator" and "aviatrix" are separate words deserving of two articles? Or did I miss something? (BTW, showing off an unusually big vocabulary at age six makes you "precocious," once you become an adult it makes you "obnoxious.") Dutchman Schultz (talk) 17:50, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think the word monologist is a somewhat broader term, and diseuse is a somewhat more specific term. Clearly the origin of diseuse is French but I found instances in English-speaking dictionaries -- which indicates that the term is now part of the English language. As people are surely well aware, there has been and continues to be considerable interchange between French and English languages; the word garage is French origin but now in English; many other similarities eg cat and chat (French), etc. I think the diseuse term is interesting and belongs somewhere in Wikipedia or Wikitionary--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:20, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Again, you are not addressing my point. If we need two articles for monologist and diseuse then waiter and waitress must be separated into two articles, as would peacock and peahen which is plainly idiotic. Dutchman Schultz (talk)
Ok, stepping aside for the moment the question of whether it should be one article or two: I think the monologist and diseuse are similar in some respects like you suggest (akin to waiter and waitress, somewhat) but not so similar that one could assert that they were the flip-side (in terms of gender) to each other, with monologist being masculine and diseuse being feminine. Clearly diseuse means a feminine speaker (usually entertainer) who performs soliloquies or monologues and seems to be more of a theatrical term; but monologist could apply to both men and women, has a longer history (in terms of etymology). And (my sense is, but I'm not sure) the term monologist applies more broadly, not just to entertainment, but elsewhere, such as a person who monopolizes a conversation. Even in terms of spelling, the two terms are different -- not just a different ending such as waiter and waitress. Now, whether there should be two separate articles? I'm less clear here but lean towards separate articles possibly, but it's just a gut feeling. Like, combining the terms here under the article monologist seems somewhat clunky, that's all.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 18:04, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved per request. - GTBacchus(talk) 01:44, 20 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Dramatic Monologist → Monologist –To increase the scope of the article. John F. Barlow (talk) 23:40, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Original research by synthesis[edit]

The following paragraph, besides totally contradicting the rest of the article, is misusing sources as proscribed in WP:Synthesis:

HumoristsComedians have been among the better known monologists over the years. More than joke tellers, these artists used their wit to weave humorous and sometimes poignant stories about the human condition. Notable humorists include the following: Charles Mathews,[1] Marshall P. Wilder,[2] Mark Twain,[3] Will Rogers,[4] Jack Benny,[5] Mort Sahl,[6] Dick Gregory,[7] Lenny Bruce,[8] Woody Allen,[9] Whoopi Goldberg,[10] Bill Cosby,[11] Stuart McLean, Lily Tomlin, Margaret Cho, Spalding Gray,[12] Mike Daisey, and Lord Buckley.[13]

None of the listed sources say that these comedians are monologists. This is the textbook definition of synthesis as we define it ("combining material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources").

Also, the article as currently written, defines monologists strictly as dramatic actors. Despite the fact standup comedians are known for delivering comic monologues, that doesn't necessarily define them as monologists. If we wish to so define the term (this seems to be supported by an alternate definition given in Merriam-Webster), then the rest of the article (including the introduction) needs to be revised to reflect the incorporation of comedic as well as dramatic monologues. Also, the definition of a humorist isn't well understood by whoever wrote this; a humorist and a comedian are two separate and distinct occupations. JustinTime55 (talk) 19:28, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ Forgeries of Memory and Meaning: Blacks and the Regimes of Race in American Theater and Film Before World War Two By Robinson p. 86
  2. ^ The International: Volume 10. p. 514. 1901
  3. ^ Makers of our History By John Thomson Faris; 1917; p. 320; Free Google Books
  4. ^ The Encyclopedia of Vaudeville 1944
  5. ^ Where the Bodies Are: Final Visits to the Rich, Famous, Interesting 2002 By Patricia Brooks pg. 207
  6. ^ Don Sherwood: The Life and Times of the World's Greatest Disc Jockey By Laurie Harper 2003 p. 68
  7. ^ Black World/Negro Digest Nov 1961 p. 29
  8. ^ Canadian Theatre Review, Issues 13–16 1977
  9. ^ American Film Now: the People, the Power, the Money, the Movies by James Monaco 1984
  10. ^ Media-Made Dixie: The South in the American Imagination by Jack Temple Kirby p. 188
  11. ^ Icons of African American Comedy: A Joke of a Different Color by Eddie M. Tafoya 2011 p. 108
  12. ^ The White Guy: A Field Guide 2008 by Stephen Hunt p. 191
  13. ^ Zinoman, Jason. "And Jonah Said, Can You Dig Me Here in This Fish?" The New York Times. December 10, 2005
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