Talk:Mizu shōbai

Comment

Excuse my French, but this "etymology" is total bullshit:

A nation famous for its onsens (natural hot springs), recreational sex has long been associated with water in Japan. While the actual origin of the term mizu shobai is debatable, it is likely the term came into use during the Tokugawa shogunate (1603-1868). The Tokugawa period saw the development of large bathhouses, an expansive network of roadside inns offering hot baths and sexual release, and the expansion of geisha districts and courtesan quarters in cities and towns throughout the country.

Compare this to the Japanese version:

「水」は「勝負は水物だ」と言われるような、運次第で大きな利益を得たり、逆に損失をこうむるなど、日々（時々）の収入があてにならない状態を指している。飲食店、風俗店は景気の良し悪し、天候、客の気まぐれなどによって収益が大きく左右されるものである。 また、酒類をまるで水のように扱うという所から、接客を伴う飲食業を「水商売」と称するようになったとも言われている。

That is, it's called the "water trade" because it deals with ephemeral products and sensations, as opposed to clay pots and bolts of silk or whatever. I've removed the section for now. Jpatokal 04:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

"Total bullshit"? By saying the "origin of the term is debatable", meant that it is debatable. But thanks for your thoughtful and articulate contribution. Not sure what you mean by "clay pots and bolts of silk". Also not sure what makes the "Japanese version" from ja.wikipedia more correct. Will re-write the section with additional info sometime soon - and try to avoid another section of total bullshit. Drcwright 21:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome. If there's a genuine debate about the term's origin, then please provide references. Jpatokal 06:20, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, we're debating it right now. ;-) The "debatableness" was taken from the Lafayette article noted in References. One site also claims it got its name because "the business usual took place on riverbanks". Yep. Drcwright 09:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

What was meant, I assume, by the reference to silk and clay is that unlike solid objects which can be bought and sold and kept and stored and counted, water is ephemeral. A rain puddle can evaporate over a day, and similarly, the courtesan world comes and goes and shifts and flows... a pot or a bolt of silk, once bought, can be kept. One night with a courtesan only lasts one night, and all you're left with afterwards is memories. There are a great many ways of explaining the metaphor, and I'm not a good writer, not good at describing the idea. But I think that's basically what it's all about - kind of like the idea of the floating world. LordAmeth 21:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

A Japanese friend of mine also explained the term to me as a business that sells something like water. Water on it's own is plentiful so there is no reason to buy high prices for it, but people still will pay high prices to get the services that go along with it. i.e. a young, attractive, companion. I have no source to cite for this so I won't change the article, but I thought it might be a good addition to the conversation. HitoriTabi (talk) 00:34, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Merge hostess bar into mizu shobai?

Both articles need work. TomorrowTime on the Hostess bar discussion page has some good points for. Drcwright 23:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. Mizu shobai is a much wider term. Jpatokal 12:21, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is a much wider term... which hostess/etc bars fall under. The question is whether to make Hostess bar a section within it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Drcwright (talk • contribs) 08:57, 27 December 2006 (UTC).

Yes, oppose. "Mizu Shobai" includes ALL of the so-called 'sex industry' and the hostess club phenomenon is a small and unique part of it. 130.49.6.243 18:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

OK. While I don't agree that mizushobai includes ALL of the so-called 'sex industry' (I've spoken to a number of people here who say it doesn't), I've removed the merge tags. Drcwright 03:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It may be a dead conversation, but just for the record, I also vote against merging. Mizu shobai, referring to the Edo period sex trade, therefore encompasses within it an entirely separate set of things from just the modern-day hostess bars and red light districts. 21st century whores are not 18th century yujo. -LordAmeth 21:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

"Water trade"

Could this be defined? What is "the water trade"? -Newjerseyliz (talk) 17:21, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

More informative re-write needed

This article starts with hostessing and cabarets, but doesn't seem to give the reader a wide-ranging and specific rundown of the scope of the mizu shobai. For example, it is mentioned that the business grew out of geisha and courtesan quarters, but no mention is made of the fact that (for example) geisha a) still exist and b) are still a part of the industry. Even courtesans still exist in some context, not as prostitutes, but as women who preserve the (quite different) traditional arts that high-ranking courtesans used to practice. You can still find these women in Shimabara - see Aoi, for example.

The article is so unclear that readers pretty much have to guess that mizu shobai means something close or adjacent to prostitution, and even the discussed etymology of the word is unclear. It reads more like a casual think-piece than anything actually informative. I can't say I came away from this article informed; I think the concept of the mizu shobai I did have is now suffering from brain freeze.

The tone would be fine for an article in The Guardian, but it's not appropriate for Wikipedia. I'd argue this is the fault of the one English source used to reference this. It is long-winded and not specific, and only talks about roughly one half? At least not all, of the mizu shobai's aspects. It would make a re-write of this article difficult for someone with no other sources at hand.

I'd like to see a future re-write of this article but I don't think I'm in a place where I can do it myself at the minute. I haven't got the time; but I know that you can definitely find details on the mizu shobai in Liza Dalby's Geisha, including more information on the history of the industry than is actually here at the minute.

I think we need a section for etymology, then history, then present day, and then, I don't know, something about legality or issues with the sex trade in Japan, seeing as this article is part of the WikiProject on sex work. It just needs a lot of cleanup and work, is all. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 16:40, 5 May 2019 (UTC)