Talk:Military history of Afghanistan

Past tense ("ceased to exist")

The referenced New York Times and Washington Post articles say that the armed forces collapsed, not that they were disbanded. Collapse is used in the sense of desertion and abandonment of posts, not in the sense of abolition. To justify the past tense usage in this article, we would need to cite sources that clearly state that the armed forces no longer exist as a governmental agency. (Did the old government abolish the armed forces on the way out? Did the new Taliban government declare that there are no longer any armed forces? Unlikely.) Since the article refers to the history of Afghan forces through various governments and even prior to the 1919 treaty of independence, and it seems reasonable to presume that it is not the policy of the new Taliban government to lack a military force (even though its name and formal structure may not yet be established), the article should reflect the present legal status of the armed forces. Of course it would still be reasonable to detail the inability of the armed forces to be mobilized, given the absence of formal leadership and troops. TheFeds 19:18, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Thankyou TheFeds. In this regard, I have also just rolled back a revert by Ytpks896 which somehow said the formation date of 1709 was "not sourced;" the source is Malleson, which was Note 7, now Note 1: Malleson, George Bruce (1878). History of Afghanistan, from the Earliest Period to the Outbreak of the War of 1878. London: Elibron.com. p. 227. ISBN 1402172788. Retrieved 2021-07-24.. The history of the Taliban's armed force 1996-2001 is explained in a chapter of Giustozzi, The Army of Afghanistan, Hurst, 2015, and stepping broadly, one might expect the same general kinds of feudal, charasmatic, characteristics of warbands led by commanders to be replicated in the Taliban's new armed forces. Buckshot06 (talk) 19:42, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Those who served in the Afghan Armed Forces will be called back for duty and returned under the new Afghan government. The same aircraft, military vehicles, weapons, bases, gear, etc., will be used by them the same way they used them before. An inventory was made so that nothing goes missing. The Taliban forces you see in and around the bases are only there to guard the premises so that thieves and vandals don't go there.--39.41.79.238 (talk) 02:02, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Shifting to subarticle about 2002 - 2021 ?

Dear all, Worldwar1989 wishes to change the article title to something indicating that this article, covering 1709-present, is only about 2002-2021. I have explained to him on his talkpage that there is a normal set of national armed forces articles ("Military of X," Military of New Zealand, for example) covering the *entire* history of all the armed forces of a country. There needs to be such an article for Afghanistan, which Military of Afghanistan can redirect to. In addition, reliable sources such as Giustozzi 2016 do not separate totally the armed forces of the Taliban from the history of the armed forces of Afghanistan- there's a chapter in Giustozzi's book covering the Taliban in normal chronological order. However, there is ample precedent for History of the Afghan Armed Forces 2002-2021 which would avoid breaking the normal pattern, and allow more detailed description about 2002 - 2021.

I would like to propose that this article remain at Afghan Armed Forces. I will copy this notice to WT:MILHIST.

• No change - as nominator. Buckshot06 (talk) 07:05, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
• No change per the nom. - wolf 07:22, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Central Corps

Ainty Painty, there was no "Central Corps" in existence for the Taliban's army to take over/supercede in August 2021. The last existence of the Central Corps was in 2002-03, before it was replaced by the 201st Corps (Afghanistan). Buckshot06 (talk) 07:14, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 3 May 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Result:
Moved per consensus garnered below. Thanks and kudos to editors for your input; good health to all! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 09:29, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

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Military of Afghanistan → Military history of Afghanistan – Now that the Taliban have mastered the Afghan army, the Afghan military should be changed to Afghan military history like other countries to describe the military of Afghanistan in different eras, such as Military history of the United States or Military history of India Бмхүн (talk) 19:14, 3 May 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 14:35, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Oppose this issue has been discussed already. This page covers the Armed forces of Afghanistan from 1700s to now, and this page should be moved to Islamic Emirate Army - now Armed Forces of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan; it keeps getting renamed!!) - and certain portions of that page merged into it. Buckshot06 (talk) 23:54, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

• Support For Taliban military (Armed Forces of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan) article is already exist, so their is no reason to keep this article. 103.141.159.229 (talk) 16:03, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
• Support as proposed per consistency Red Slash 19:08, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
• Support, and make Military of Afghanistan be a redirect to Armed Forces of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, which describes the current military set up there.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:31, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Copied from User talk:Buckshot06/Archive 26

fyi Tartan357

Military of Afghanistan

I don't really mind one way or the other whether we treat the different regimes' militaries as continuing entities or not, but it should be kept consistent. What are your thoughts on Military of Afghanistan, Afghan army, and Islamic Emirate Army? ― Tartan357 ^Talk 11:21, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Respectively, Afghan Armed Forces (though "Military of Afghanistan" is the default name for such military or armed forces articles when we don't know the official current name, I have never seen any reference to the Afghan armed forces as the 'military of Afghanistan' in any written descriptions of the Afghan forces; Afghan Armed Forces has been used however); secondly, Afghan Army rather than 'Afghan army'; and Islamic Emirate Army should be merged into Afghan Army (probably under the name Islamic Emirate Army but only *IF* we have reliable sources, not just one newspaper article *headline* not used in the article main body from TOLONews). The title for the moment should probably remain at Afghan Army until we have reliable repeated *official* Taliban sources say their ground forces are called the 'Islamic Emirate Army.' Giustozzi 2015 and other reliable sources do not break out the Taliban army of 1996-01 as a totally separate entity, they treat it in the main line of continuing Afghan military forces, and that is the general practice across Wikipedia as well.

You will note that the South African Army was not split into multiple articles after the ANC took power in 1994, nor the Burmese Army split after the repeated military takeovers that turned Burma into Myanmar (everything at Myanmar Army. If we add far too much information to fit one article, however, WP:SIZERULE applies and subarticles can be created that provide more detail (like History of the Afghan Armed Forces 2002-2021). In that case however, the main country army article - Afghan Army or AAF - would still summarize that detailed history. Buckshot06 (talk) 11:38, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Like I said, I don't care how the split/merge is handled, but the naming should follow policy. If you want to call it "Afghan armed forces" and "Afghan air force", that's also perfectly fine with me. But using those same terms with capital letters incorrectly implies that we're talking about a proper noun, when historically different official names have been used. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 11:42, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

You're not correct. Check Category:Armies by country (or, re the below, Category:Air forces by country) and you will clearly see we use title case. Zambian Army, not Zambian army. Buckshot06 (talk) 11:44, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Well, then they should be moved because title case is strictly against Wikipedia naming policy: wp:LOWERCASE. Article titles must be in sentence case. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 11:47, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

In that case, you're advocating a mass renaming of articles, not just regarding Afghanistan. Suggest you (a) start discussions at some appropriate forum, with a notice at WT:MILHIST, so that the community involved knows; and (b), until that point in time, we stick to current naming conventions for state army and air force articles, clearly demonstrated at those categories. Apart from inertia, I have no dog in that fight; my point here thoughout is that there is almost always one article for the whole history of a state's army or air force, and that those articles are invariably capitalised, in title case. That also accords with COMMONNAME when referring to a state's army or air force formally, but without knowing the exact official title of the force under any current regime.

Cleanup

I have thought about it and I'm fine with doing it your way. I have been working on this as part of the Afghanistan editing community, not the military one, and have been trying to keep the timeline of IRA and IEA governance clear. This has typically meant separate articles for institutions that existed in parallel; that does not be the case here, as the new authorities have been treating this military as distinct from their insurgent forces. So, I think it can be treated as a continuing entity, and I'm fine with using the last widely-reported name for that entity. Would you like to help with a merge of Islamic Emirate Forces into Military of Afghanistan? I'd like to know your thoughts before I get started. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 02:49, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Happy to. Would prefer that. Basically take the structure of Military of Afghanistan, and insert the appropriate parts of Islamic Emirate Forces into it, and make sure the whole articles ends up at the label of either Islamic Emirate Forces or Islamic Emirate Army, whichever the most reliable Taliban Govt sources seem to stick to (or third name if they go with a variation). Happy to help. Cheers Buckshot06 (talk) 08:30, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

• End of Insert*

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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