Talk:Mikhail Tal

Playing style

"However, it has been reported that partly this style is related to an unusual rule for moving knights in that region, where they are unable to move backwards, only forwards; this forces unusual strategies on players." As far as I understand the article in reference was a joke and there is no evidence that Tal used to play by such rules. I think the sentence is misleading. (193.68.74.52 14:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC))

It is a joke, and I already removed it before checking this discussion page. It is unfortunate that you didn't simply remove it yourself... In the future, pls be bold. Themindset 18:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Picture

Someone replaces the fair-use high quality photo of Tal with a free and ugly photo of Tal's wax statue and states that "if you have a free pic you can't use a fair use pic". But I think that this is an article about Tal and not about wax work. I think that the "free pic" rationale therefore cannot be used. But I am not an expert in copyright law. What do you think about it?--Ioannes Pragensis 17:22, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I for one would like to see a link to a Wiki policy supporting the replacer's contention. If any such notion exists, it would only exist there--as there would not be a "preferable to use" edict in copyright law. Epeefleche 21:08, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I reverted, on the basis that a photo of a wax dummy is not a photo of Tal at all. Plus, it is in my opinion a truly horrible photo (or rather, a photo of a horrible wax dummy). I'd rather no photo at all than the wax dummy photo. Peter Ballard 11:18, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the policy being refered to was Wikipedia:Non-free content#Policy, point 1. The relevant sentence is, "Non-free content is always replaced with a freer alternative if one of acceptable quality is available.". I argue - and it seems Ioannes Pragensis agrees with me - that the wax dummy photo is not "acceptable quality" so it does not qualify. If we are not allowed to use the Tal photo due to copyright, then OK, but as I said above, I'd rather no photo at all than the wax dummy photo. Peter Ballard 13:06, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, better no photo at all, the waxwork is not acceptable.--Ioannes Pragensis 17:34, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the replaceability criterion applies here, because the waxwork image is not really free. A wax figure is a copyrightable work of art, so a photo of it is a derivative work. I'll nominate the photo for deletion on Commons. —Celithemis 22:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

If someone's interested in adding it here, here's a photograph I took of his grave a few days ago: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:Mikhailtalgrave.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unlikelylads (talk • contribs) 18:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Have'nt you noticed that that the first photo (from Susans blog) is turned the WRONG WAY! Look at his fingers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.69.239.72 (talk) 06:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

A white square in the lower right - the picture is OK. Bubba73 ^{(You talkin' to me?)}, 06:47, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the first picture and the one where he is in the hospital with Fischer, I believe he had a malformation in his right hand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.59.171.15 (talk) 04:42, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes he did - see the "health problems" section. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 04:49, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Out of respect for Tal, a different picture should be used that doesn't show his badly formed hand. There are many great photos of him and he was a brilliant player who deserves a better picture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.89.10 (talk) 21:11, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia can use a copyrighted photo only under special circumstances. And if a free one is available (no matter how bad it is), a copyrighted photo can't be used. That one is freely available so there is practically no chance of replacing it. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 21:29, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

In fact, a few months ago there were some other photos of Tal that got removed for that reason. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 23:21, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree that a different picture should be located and used at the soonest opportunity, and I am certain that all lovers of Tal would agree. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.204.188.22 (talk) 12:25, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

No, no, please don't change the photo to hide his hand deformity. There are all kinds of people with various disabilities who grow up afraid that their disability will make life difficult for them, and there are all kinds of people who think that deformities or disabilities should be hidden away. It is very good for all of us to learn to look at a deformity without shying away from it, to think of the person who has it more than of the deformity itself, and to be straightforward about it, just as the person with the deformity must be. When God called Moses to lead his people out of Egypt, Moses was indescribably reluctant and struggled desperately to avoid the call. Almost his last excuse was to say "O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue. And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?" (Exodus chapter 4, verses 10-11.) There will be many people with disabilities who will feel greatly encouraged at the sight of this photo of a world-beating chess player with a hand deformity. Interestingly, Wikipedia > Ectrodactyly says that people with this are frequently very skilful with their hands. It's good to see a blind man can be a leading politician, like David Blunkett, or a man in a wheelchair can be the American President, like Roosevelt. UBJ 43X (talk) 01:38, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

:-) agree to show the deformity. It doesn't show him as a worse player and doesn't hurt the reputation of his character. Wakari07 (talk) 22:03, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Please, remove the bad picture. Chvsanchez (talk) 04:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

1959 Candidates Tournament

This section says "Tal's victory was attributed to his dominance over the lower half of the field." I find this a little dubious: Tal had a minus against Keres, but scored better than Keres against everyone else, including Petrosian and Smyslov. Philcha (talk) 22:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't write that section, but I think it's correct. Look at the crosstable at http://www.mark-weeks.com/chess/5860$cix.htm. Tal was:

• 1–3 v. Keres
• 2–2 v. Petrosian
• 2.5–1.5 v. Smyslov
• 4–0 v. Fischer
• 3½–½ v. each of Gligoric, Olafsson, and Benko

So against the top half of the field Tal was 5½–6½ for a narrow minus score (−1), but against the bottom half he was 14½–1½ (+13!). Keres scored 6½–4½ (+2) (oops, 6½–5½ (+1) as Peter says below) in the top half and Petrosian scored 5½–5½ (+0) (I can't add, 6–6 (+0)) in the top half. There's no shame in this. Beating up on the bottom half of the tournament is a time-honored strategy. It's the only reason Fischer got out of Portoroz and into this 1959 Candidates tournament. At Portoroz although Fischer was undefeated against the Soviets (all draws), against the top 13 finishers he was only +0−2=10, but he went +6−0=2 against places 14 to 21. We need a World Chess Championship 1960 article to discuss this in detail. There's a lot of good stuff to talk about in this championship cycle. Quale (talk) 23:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I've certainly read it (in Israel Horowitz's book, and maybe others). So I'll add the Horowitz ref soon. Nevertheless the crosstable makes interesting reading. The top 4 were fairly evenly matched: it you look at the mini-tournament between the top 4, it was Keres +1, Petrosian =, Smyslov =, Tal -1. So Keres also benefited from beating up the bottom 4, scoring an impressive +8. It's just that Tal did it better, with an incredible +13. Peter Ballard (talk) 02:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Date of death

Hello. There is 27/06/92 as date of death on his grave... All of the Wikies tell that he died on 28/06/92. Who is right? Regards pjahr (talk) 14:23, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Kasparov gives the 28th also. Not that he is necessarily right, but that is a reference. Bubba73 (talk), 14:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I've ordered Life & Games of Mikhail Tal - second edition published 5 years after his death, so I hope that will serve as an authorative source. Bubba73 (talk), 05:56, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I have that book (superb, incidentally) and it gives 28th June, as does every other source I've seen. It's possible for gravestones to be wrong of course - Elvis Presley's famously misspells his middle name! Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:38, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

This article used to say 28th, but someone changed it to 27th based on the gravestone. I looked up all other sources I could find and they all said 28th. I added a footnote about the 28th. I think we need to change it to the 28th, and have the footnote explain all of the sources for the 28th but note that the gravestone says 27th. Bubba73 (talk), 18:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree.Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:45, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I got Life and Games today, and I changed it to the 28th, but mentioned the gravestone in the footnote. Bubba73 (talk), 20:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that's the right thing to do. It looks good now. Quale (talk) 20:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think deadoraliveinfo.com is a reliable source, and doesn't add any authority compared to solid sources like Kasparov or a posthumous edition of his own book (which are very good sources). I propose deleting it. Peter Ballard (talk) 05:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems OK to me, but I won't object to removing it if that is the consensus. What do others think? Bubba73 (talk), 05:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's a bad source, I just think it carries no authority. It doesn't seem to be a particularly noteworthy site (it doesn't have a Wikipedia entry, for instance), and for all I know it's just run out of someone's garage using information the site author has gleaned from the internet. Given that, I don't think it helps settle question one way or the other. Peter Ballard (talk) 05:30, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Google "deadoraliveinfo" gives 19,800 hits. I've looked up several people there before and they seem reliable to me. But I'd like to hear other opinions. Bubba73 (talk), 05:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

First look at this article today. Surprised that this article doesn't say 27th. The grave picture seems to be substantially stronger information then the referenced material, which lets be honest wouldn't be researched in regards to this fact. Does any of the referenced material say that the gravestone is incorrect? Or gave any more information perhaps on the date? It would be quite easy on the engraving of the gravestone to amend the '7' into a '8' if it was incorrect - that leads me to believe that 27 is indeed correct and all other sources are just misquoting all it takes is a report something to the effect of "Tal died today"... only to have the statement lifted into a national paper that's published the following day and you have an error from nowhere. ChessCreator (talk) 21:06, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually I agree with other editors who say that mistakes on gravestones are not uncommon, and I don't think that as a source it has as great a weight as the many other references that say 28. In fact all other references say 28. It's easier for me to believe that there is a mistake on the gravestone than it is to believe that every single other reference got it wrong. It might be a good question for Edward G. Winter to research, however, since he likes stuff like this. Quale (talk) 21:47, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Early years

I agree with the more representational transliteration of "Koblents" (vs. "Koblencs"). His own Wikipedia entry is under Koblencs, however. Which I also agree with because it's more faithful to the original and can't we all just learn a little Hungarian for gosh sakes?? I fixed the link by directing it to Koblencs, and it's up to someone else to tackle the spelling in his entry. Eleven even (talk) 21:53, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Misha?

I've often seen Tal referred to as "Misha". Is that a common form of Mikhail or is it specific to Tal? If the latter, it should be mentioned in the article. Bubba73 (talk), 05:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Misha is short for Mikhaiel Misha#Origins of the name. Bubba73 (talk), 05:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Organs quote

But his friend and fellow Soviet grandmaster Genna Sosonko reported that "in reality, all his organs had stopped functioning."[11]

The above quote is not given in the linked reference. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20061128/ai_n16873075 ChessCreator (talk) 02:48, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

• Good catch—you're right. This needs another source or it should be removed. The chesscafe review of the chessbase CD (the final external link) has a similar statement, but it doesn't support reporting it as a direct quote (the use of the quotation marks in the wikipedia article). We have the unfortunate problem of "wikireality". Since this text has been in this article for a while, there are many copies of it on other web pages and it's hard to know if any of them predate the statement in this article. Quale (talk) 06:50, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Even more so the "drink the hotel dry" rumour, which I just deleted. Peter Ballard (talk) 03:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

No, much less so that. See the section below: it comes directly from the source ChessCreator links right above, although it wasn't cited inline. Quale (talk) 17:48, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

On a similar note, I'd like a source for the morphine addiction. I'm almost through with his book, and I haven't seen it in the text (and I doubt it is buried in the game annotations). I don't really doubt it, but I think it needs a reliable source. Bubba73 (talk), 03:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, the link at the top of this section does mention the morphine adiction, do you think it is a good source? Also, the article does say "three weeks before his much-abused organs packed up for good..." - it sounds to me that this could have been misinterpreted as "all of his organs shut down stopped functioning". Bubba73 (talk), 03:39, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Right, it says that, but I didn't read it as a direct quote from Sosonko. If that's the cause of death we can say it, but it's a horrible mistake to attribute a direct quote to someone if we don't have a source—we really can't do that. Quale (talk) 06:56, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm a little suspicious of the article cited above i.e. this one.[1] The author Dominic Lawson is a well known journalist so he qualifies as a WP:RS, but has no qualifications when it comes to chess and there are countless examples of the media making errors in chess articles. There is at least one blatant error in the article: it says chess has up to 10**128 possible positions, but the actual number is far lower (since each square has 13 possibilities, it can't be much more than 13**64 = 10**71 (roughly)) and he appears to have confused this with the number of possible chess games which can be played (see Shannon number). Given that he hasn't double-checked that detail, I think I'm entitled to be just a little skeptical of the Tal part of the article. He clearly spoke to Gennadi Sosonko, but I wonder whether some embellishment occured somewhere along the way. In other words, if the only source for claims is the Lawson article, perhaps we should tread with caution. Peter Ballard (talk) 01:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps I can clear this one up. It may be that Lawson is indeed quoting Sosonko who wrote as follows: ".. on 28th of June 1992, Misha Tal died in hospital in Moscow. The official cause of death was given as haemorrhage of the oesophagus, but effectively his entire organism had ceased to function." This was been published in a book by Sosonko published by New In Chess entitled Russian Silhouettes. I believe (but may be wrong) that the articles collated into that book were previously published in the issues of the magazine/yearbook. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Akhc (talk • contribs) 20:16, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Hastings 1973

The Hastings 1973 drinking the bar dry of brandy bit is taken directly from reference 11 (Dominic Lawson, Why artificial intelligence is never enough) although it wasn't cited inline at that point. I didn't add the sentence or the reference to the article. I have to say it sounds apocryphal to me so I don't object to its removal, but I thought it should be pointed out that it wasn't a complete fabrication by whoever put it in the article. I think the organ failure quote attributed to Sosonko is a worse problem unless it can be referenced. Quale (talk) 07:15, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Still sounds unlikely to me. It would have to be an incredibly poorly stocked bar if one person could drink it dry. In any case, we've established he was a drinker, do we really need to add this? Peter Ballard (talk) 00:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be sufficient without it. Bubba73 (talk), 01:12, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

About his career records

As far as I know, Tal has beaten Anatoly Karpov at least once (the famous game featuring the Rxe6! exchange sacrifice).The internet database chessgames.com shows a 2-1 record against Karpov instead of the 1-0 record mentioned here, that's in Karpov's favour.Needless to say, if one of the records provided in this entry is inaccurate, other ones might seem dubious as well.So, those of you fellows with reliable game databases: please take a look at the entire records listed here.And be carefull about this: some of these games might have been blitz or rapidplay; they don't count. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Derakht (talk • contribs) 21:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

lengthy quote (about his personality)

His first wife, actress and singer Salli Landau, described Tal's personality:

Misha was so ill-equipped for living... When he travelled to a tournament, he couldn't even pack his own suitcase... He didn't even know how to turn on the gas for cooking. If I had a headache, and there happened to be no one home but him, he would fall into a panic: "How do I make a hot-water bottle?" And when I got behind the wheel of a car, he would look at me as though I were a visitor from another planet. Of course, if he had made some effort, he could have learned all of this. But it was all boring to him. He just didn't need to. A lot of people have said that if Tal had looked after his health, if he hadn't led such a dissolute life... and so forth. But with people like Tal, the idea of "if only" is just absurd. He wouldn't have been Tal then.

I think he had the soul of an actor. There was a reason why he always loved appearing as master-of-ceremonies. He needed an audience. He couldn't play without one - people inspired him.

I can't imagine him without a cigarette in his mouth - he'd smoke five packs a game! He never needed a lighter - he'd finish one, and light the next one from it. Most of his illnesses were inherited. When it came time for us to marry, a doctor from the Riga Special Clinic, where Dr. Nehemiah Tal once worked, told me that I shouldn't marry a man with that kind of health. He was always ill. And in the last years of his life, all his illnesses got worse. There were three whole years in which his temperature simply never went down. I have no idea how a man playing with a constant temperature of 38-39 degrees could become World Blitz Champion in 1988! And on May 28, 1992, at the Moscow blitz tournament, he became the only player to defeat Kasparov. I'm told he even left the hospital to play. The strongest chess-player in the world still lost to a dying Tal.

He was an unusual man. I miss him terribly. Sometimes I think that Misha flew in from another planet - just to play chess, and then fly home. He was asked once how he would categorize chess - is it a sport, or an art? He was simply exasperated: how can you call chess a sport? I don't know much about it myself - but they did call Tal the Mozart of chess. And he was a genial sort in real life, too. He was kind, cheerful, and never had a bad word to say about anyone.

I removed the above quote from the article because quotes of such length are against policy. A summary of the quote can be written and placed in the article. And it might be nice to add other details about his personality that don't come from Salli Landau. Kingturtle = (talk) 13:10, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

References

"Every game"

"Every game, he once said, was as inimitable and invaluable as a poem." Is this a reference to every game of chess, or all of his games? Toccata quarta (talk) 07:46, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Jewish sourcing

Note: I have taken the liberty of cutting and pasting this discussion from Quale's talk page because I think it belongs here. MaxBrowne (talk) 00:59, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello quale, firstly, sorry for my english, im not a native speaker. you reverted my edit in this article - and I don't agree with you. footnotes are not for every fact - only for statistics, controversial facts, ciation of a research, quotes etc etc. I can give you lots of links that support it - [2], [3] and more and more. therefore, i've recanceld. good day, Yoav Nachtailer (talk) 16:21, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I understand why you don't agree with me, but the rules on the English language Wikipedia require a citation for "any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged" (WP:V). We don't have to guess whether or not the claim that Tal was from a Jewish family is likely to be challenged, because in fact it was challenged. The person who flagged it as needed a cite was challenging it. When an editor sees a claim in an article and is uncertain whether or not it is verifiable, there are two options. The more drastic option is to remove the claim until a source is provided. The more gentle option is to flag the claim as needing a citation. I think Tal did come from a Jewish family, so I believe the claim is true. (If I thought it was false, I would remove it from the article.) It still needs a citation, and I think the editor who flagged it as needing a citation was correct. It is rarely permissible to remove a cite needed tag from an article without providing a citation. You have some sources that might be suitable for verification. Quale (talk) 03:04, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

There's this chess column from the Montreal Gazette but can probably do better. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1946&dat=19591114&id=qYotAAAAIBAJ&sjid=IZ0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=7173,2736047 MaxBrowne (talk) 04:36, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Sports Illustrated, 1960: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1071151/2/index.htm MaxBrowne (talk) 04:55, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

That mini-edit war was so stupid - so does this policy, which is totaly anti-acedmic. Yoav Nachtailer (talk) 08:33, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion allowing maintenance tags, and especially maintenance header templates into main article space is one of the worst decisions ever made by wikipedia admins. People who look up wikipedia articles for information don't want to see that crap. It just makes an article uglier and detracts from wikipedia's credibility. Drive-by taggers (aka "curators"), deletionists and "citation needed" fascists who demand a reference for every single statement in an article are among wikipedia's most annoying editors, and I'm sure they drive away 90% of newbies. But anyway.... while it is "obvious" to you and me that Mikhail Nekhemevich Tal was Jewish, if someone asks for a source we need to provide it. MaxBrowne (talk) 11:36, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

well I did it, and then you canceld my edit. this is getting more and more annoying. Yoav Nachtailer (talk) 14:34, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Apologies. The problem with that web page is that to a non-Hebrew speaker it's unreadable even with google translate. Google translate for some reason isn't smart enough to read that page from right to left, so the translation it gives is gibberish. (It works on some Hebrew pages but not others). Based on my knowledge of the Hebrew alphabet I recognise the names Fischer, Tal and Botvinnik in that article but I can't read the whole thing. Perhaps you could provide a translation of the relevant passage? Regards. MaxBrowne (talk) 00:59, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

sure. its an article about the jews in chess - why they are supposedly very good at it. then they are doing name droping of jew chess masters: Mikhail Botvinnik, Mikhail Tal, Bobby Fischer and more. off course you can change the footnote to an english article if you find any, I have no objection. Yoav Nachtailer (talk) 18:16, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Don't think Fischer would like to be name checked there... but anyway we can probably source it to Sosonko's Russian Silhouettes, the relevant chapter has been posted on-line at http://www.chess.com/blog/pavanmss/my-misha---mikhail-tal (chess.com obviously don't care much about copyright). Cheers. MaxBrowne (talk) 00:05, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Russian TV documentary

This includes interviews with Salli Landau and others. Some potentially useful material there, if anyone speaks Russian. MaxBrowne (talk) 01:23, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

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liquids

Why is Таль, with the palatal sign, transcribed [taɫ], with the dark l? —Tamfang (talk) 07:25, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

It was a mistake. Fixed. Burzuchius (talk) 18:06, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

The +, -, = thing

I don't see how (+5 -6 =10) is difficult to understand for an average reader. Anyone reading this article is probably interested in chess to some extent. The information is absorbed faster than when spelling out the numbers in letters. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 01:31, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. +5 -6 =10 is customary in our sources, and so we have generally used it in Wikipedia (see for example, other chess articles such as Bobby Fischer and Magnus Carlsen). Using the more verbose format, or any format different from what is used in the rest of Wikipedia and in sports writing other than Wikipedia, should not be done without a very good reason. Bruce leverett (talk) 03:11, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Mikhailtalgrave.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:24, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Photo in infobox

@Ps103ankit: since this photo is allegedly from 1959, how can it be your own work? It is important that Wikipedia not use photographs unless the real copyright owner (if any) has given permission. Bruce leverett (talk) 18:31, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

The image is not the uploader's own work and has been tagged for deletion at Commons. Whpq (talk) 17:51, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Misha. jpg.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:53, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

'Personality' section removed

Article shortened and made less informative, I would argue unnecessarily, with this deletion Knot Lad (talk) 12:16, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

It was done by this change: [4] Bruce leverett (talk) 12:53, 23 March 2023 (UTC)