Talk:Michelle Pfeiffer/GA2

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Reviewer: TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:06, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will look at this in the next few days.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:06, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:LEAD
  • The lead is visibly short and after reading it I feel it is incomplete. It does not summarize the entire article.
    • Certainly a summary of the personal life should be included.
    • I am sitting here looking at her conventionally attractive photo and thinking to myself, what does the world think? Was she ever a best-dressed, People most beautiful persons list, Maxim, Ask Men, FHM, Stuff, most hottest sexiest whatever lists. Is there any public record of sex symbolness?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:17, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • How about some text in the LEAD to the effect of Pfeiffer earned the title of Miss Orange County before becoming a notable actress. Since becoming famous, she has been repeatedly recognized for her beauty, earning record six People Magazine Most Beautiful People recognitions in the 1990s after being on the cover for the inaugural special edition. She has also, . . . whatever best, most, hottest, sexiest, it lists. She has been a spokesperson for whatever beauty companies she likely is a spokesperson for.(just guessing, but I'd put money on somebody wanting to describe her as our face).--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:59, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Maybe link OC on first mention. keep in mind OC is one of the more competitive local beauty pageant titles in the country. It's population exceeds that of numerous states. Although lacking the prestige of a state title, she bested a field for a region whose population exceeds that of about 20 states. Plus, Hollywood attracts a lot of beautiful people to that region. I've got no stats, but I am guessing OC, is the most competitive county beauty pageant in the country.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:04, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Does the lead look better now? I decided not to add further information about other roles than the ones that are already listed in the lead because those are her most important roles among her filmography.--GDuwenTell me! 22:31, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Below I commented and you must have missed it. You might want a fourth opening paragraph before you get into the trivial like her beginnings in hollywood. Also, her Hollywood star address is not necessary in the LEAD.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:46, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have made further changes on the lead based on your suggestions, hope its OK now.--GDuwenTell me! 00:40, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is shaping up. I am not going to cross this one off until I finish my runthrough.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:47, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Early life
  • Is it possible to clarify whether Miss Orange County and Miss Los Angeles were part of the Miss USA or Miss America network. It is not clear to me why she would compete in Miss LA after winning Miss OC earlier that year if they were not part of the different systems. It seems to me that the winner of either contest would compete in Miss California or Miss California USA next. In general, it is local, state and then national.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:32, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the line about Miss LA. I could not find any reliable source that indicates that she won the pageant, all the sources I have found mention only that she won miss OC.--GDuwenTell me! 21:25, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The opening sentences are suppose to span the highlights not the trivial. This is where you work in 6 consecutive golden globes and such. The current 2nd sentence is second paragraph material.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:20, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done.--GDuwenTell me! 21:09, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not too many people know what a stenographer is, so I would link it.
Done.--Gunt50 (talk) 23:03, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done.--GDuwenTell me! 21:09, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
First television and film appearances
  • "none of which met with much success" -> none of which met with much critical or box office success.
Done --Gunt50 (talk) 22:23, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Already clarified. --Gunt50 (talk) 22:23, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I did that on this section. I didn't spot any more unlinked movies on other parts of the article, so I think it's done at least I omitted an unlinked one. --Gunt50 (talk) 22:51, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What did you omit?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:51, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't mean I omitted something. What I'm saying is that I haven't spotted any other unlinked movie within the text at least I have omitted one. --Gunt50 (talk) 00:05, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Mainstream attention
Done. --Gunt50 (talk) 22:44, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See Sesame Street for desired conversion technique. We want something that will update itself.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:14, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I didn't know that tool. Done.--Gunt50 (talk) 00:34, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Critical acclaim
  • six consecutive years or roles? This kind of streak is pretty notable and probably worth a mention in the LEAD.

Done.--GDuwenTell me! 22:32, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • convert $18,428,904.
Done.--Gunt50 (talk) 22:44, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See above.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:15, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I took care of that
  • 'Makin' Whoopee' should be linked.
It is now. --Gunt50 (talk) 22:26, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The only other major acting award for which she was nominated that she did not take home for The Fabulous Baker Boys was the BAFTA Award for Best Actress in a Leading Role, which also went to Tandy." needs a citation. It sounds a bit POV to say what the major awards are without a source. Saying she did not win the BAFTA could also use a source, but is not likely to be chaqllenged.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:21, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I already sourced it. --Gunt50 (talk) 22:59, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
International success
  • "the film adaptation of John le Carré's The Russia House (1990)" is either linked wrong or worded wrong. I am just not sure what is proper. The problem is the link for the 1990 film adaptation is in the place in the text that refers to the 1989 book but uses 1990 in parenthesis. You should probably phrase it to use both links like you do for her next role.
Done.--GDuwenTell me! 21:26, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • In this section it is becoming unclear whether her GG and AA noms are for best actress or best supporting actress.
    • E.G., "third Academy Award nomination and fifth Golden Globe nomination"
Done.--GDuwenTell me! 21:36, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That was a comment for the whole section including the first paragraph. It seems that even the prior section needs to be fixed. Make sure each different type of award is linked on its first mention.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:57, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Convert US$65 millions and US$131.
Done.--GDuwenTell me! 21:43, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She appeared as her character in the music video" - does this mean film clips were included in the video or she appeared in costume.
A clip of the movie was not used, she appeared in the video indeed. Jerry Bruckheimer used it as an advertising to the movie. (I added that to the article).--GDuwenTell me! 21:55, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So the reader is left to wonder if she shook her booty, fawned all over the rapper, or stood in a classroom.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:00, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • the "Subsequent performances included the . . ." paragraph needs a summary. I.e., none of these roles garnered critical acclaim and only film X was a box office successs.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:46, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I only left the titles of the movies, is that ok?--GDuwenTell me! 22:00, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think you removed encyclopedic content.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:02, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I worked on that paragraph. I re-wrote the encyclopedic contenct and tried to improve it.--Gunt50 (talk) 00:20, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ough...I'm sorry I messed up. I made it award.--Gunt50 (talk) 01:13, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Return to film
  • Four year absence still seems curious to me.
Apparently she took a hiatus. I read she turned down a role in The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe. You can check her IMDb page or other sources to see the years between 'Sinbad: Legend of the Seven Seas' and 'Stardust'. --Gunt50 (talk) 23:43, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think that was written in the article before I started working on it. Since most of the info 'bout the release was confusing, I changed it for the place where the movie was opened.--Gunt50 (talk) 00:12, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Theater
She's a film actress. I was surprised to see she took a stage role when I first read the article. Apparently it was her only theater. I can't find any other info on her stage career. --Gunt50 (talk) 23:43, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Personal life
  • It is very difficult to make actor biographies more than proselized filmographies. In many cases, actors and actresses use their notability for the sake of causes. Others become spokespersons for personal gain. I am quite hesitant to consider this article complete without some detail beyond her acting career and family. Surely in the 1990s when she was repeatedly listed among the most beautiful people she was at least the spokesperson for major cosmetics/fashion companies. I would guess she was a spokesperson for other companies.
I added her charity causes to kinda complete the article. Those were barely mentioned and I couldn't find anything about her being a spokesperson or representing a company. Her bios don't mention anything about that. Maybe she actually represented a company in the 90ies, but I can't confirm it. Although it's weird the lack of this kind of info, if that was in the 90ies, it's not likely to be available on the internet.--Gunt50 (talk) 15:25, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am going to bounce around the internet to check this claim. I see at this that she had a nanny and started filming Dangerous minds while 3-mos pregnant. That also mentions that by winning the beauty pageant she was able to get an agent. "I needed to learn how to act," she says. "In the meantime, I was playing bimbos and cashing in on my looks." is an interesting quote. It mentions she hung out with surfers, was a B-student, where her parents lived before CA. I note you fail to mention her failings and mistakes. She turned down Clarice in The Silence of the Lambs and lost out to Sharon Stone for Basic Instinct. I am going to look at a few more articles before I give up on the spokesperson.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:05, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I squeezed some stuff out of that article to complete early life, those roles that she finally didn't play and how she was represented by an agent.--GDuwenTell me! 18:59, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Early in her career she did some Lux (soap) commercials for their perfume line. That is all I can find. I am shocked she chose not to make the spokesmodel money when she could.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:17, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, this article is quite heavy on domestic box and critical acclaim. BAFTA is mentioned once or twice and you mentioned the Golden Bear. You only mention one worldwide box office total in the whole article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:17, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In most of cases I've only been able to find the domestic box office total for her movies. I added the worldwide one for Batman Returns, trying to address your concern. About the awards. I checked out her profile on IMBd. I haven't spotted any Foreign Award more than the ones I mentioned on the article.--Gunt50 (talk) 14:55, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did she ever present work at Cannes? Keep in mind this is suppose to be neutral. Don't just mention when she won awards, IMO. It would certainly be encyclopedic to say that X film was presented at Cannes the year that Y film took the Z prize and YY actress won the ZZ award.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:19, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to preserve the article's neutrality by mentioning Ryder's Oscar nomination for age of innocence, and Emma Thompon's victory in 1993. Is it enough? --Gunt50 (talk) 00:36, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Checklist[edit]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

Almost there

  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    As a consistent most beautiful person in the 1990s, I would like to know what beauty/fashion companies she represented.
    This article has failed a very simple broadness test. Do a google news search over an important range of the dates for the subject (1/1/88-12/31/00) and see if there are any interesting facts omitted from the article from the first New York Times article that you see. See above for the many omissions. I am going to do another random check in a few minutes. I hope I don't find a lot of content missing on test number two.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:13, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    From the 1/1/2003-12/31/2007 range the first article that wasn't simply a movie review tells me she use to have pet donkeys and formerly lived around the corner from the walk of fame. They present other important roles she passed over (Thelma and Louise, and Sleepless in Seattle). The article as it is written tells us about the movies she was in and the awards she was nominated for. It needs to go further than that. I am going to do one more breadth test.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:24, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I have been waiting for you to find this, but I just found it myself. As Miss OC, she finished in the top 10 of 42 contestants at the Miss California competition (not the Miss California USA one).--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:32, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
    A little bit too nice to the subject. Failings seem to be absent or glossed over. Still fairly certain this actress has presented work at Cannes without winning.
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    image review forthcoming. All images need {{Personality rights}} tags.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:51, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I always forget about those! That's done now.--GDuwenTell me! 18:28, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
    I'll review outstanding issues momentarily, but we are almost there.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:46, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Overall, this subject has a lot of reliable sources available. The current article presents the obvious summary of her filmography, but we need more.I beleive the article could be broadened in a few days. I will check back and evaluate.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:40, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Outstanding issues.
  • I understand that she did not win anything. However, wikipedia is suppose to shed light on failures and successes. I continue to believe that this article omits submissions at Cannes. See this link and please summarize for the reader if this is the case. As I have noted above, it would certainly be encyclopedic to say that X film was presented at Cannes the year that Y film took the Z prize and YY actress won the ZZ award.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:12, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I googled about work submissions to Cannes. I couldn't really find much, except that Chéri was selected for the Berlinale competition. About what you say about other actresses receiving awards. I mentioned Emma Thompson beating her at the Oscars, and Winona Ryder's victory at the Oscars for The Age of Innocence in order to make the article more neutral. Is that what you're talking about, when referring to YY actress won the ZZ award?--Gunt50 (talk) 22:16, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • At least two additional successful films were mentioned as roles that she declined. Most great actresses are offered more great roles than they can handle. There is no shame in having declined roles in successful films. You should try to flesh out the other two mentioned above and not the conflict between sources about whether she declined one or was overlooked.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:12, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I added she turned down the Pretty Woman and the White Witch roles and clarified why she did so with Basic Instinct.--Gunt50 (talk) 15:55, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • You are still omitting encyclopedic content regarding her pageantry. The fact that she did not win Miss CA does not mean it did not happen. --TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:38, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I completed that using that source that you linked previously.--GDuwenTell me! 01:26, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, I really enjoy speaking highly about this lady. However, we have to present some foibles. Heck, in some eyes, her career took a wrong turn that went from 6 GGs in a row to nowhere. Let's please broaden the article as best we can.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:38, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Still unclear on some of the nominations as mentioned above. Please state the category and link all on first mention.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:56, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to solve this issue. Take a look now.--Gunt50 (talk) 22:16, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's now mentioned.--GDuwenTell me! 01:26, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am starting to feel like I am doing the work of the author. Should this Calista Flockhart issue be mentioned. I just left something on the article talk page regarding another role missed out on. I don't think I am going to be able to make myself comfortable that this article is appropriately broad.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:12, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I added the thing about the Eva Perón role.--Gunt50 (talk) 15:56, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm kinda loth to add the Calista thing since sounds like gossip to me. Could be that considered encyclopedic content?--Gunt50 (talk) 16:02, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am sort of convinced that if I asked for a 2nd opinion, the article would pass, but I am really having trouble convincing myself to pass this thing. I am going to sit on it for a few hours.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:24, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You do that. Although this article is complete, it may lack some aspects. I think a second opinion could be our best choice in this case.--Gunt50 (talk) 19:58, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am a Hollywood outsider. However, if you were to ask me why Pfeiffer has never won an Oscar, it is because 1.) She has turned down a ton of great roles. 2.) Never went to Cannes to help build her fan base and 3.) never accepted a lush spokesperson role. Just guessing, cuase I don't know. I wish there were a way to definitively say that she never attended Cannes. However, at this point I think if you just mention turning down Thelma and Loise and Sleepless in Seattle, that would satisfy me. Maybe you can find better sources. I am just wondering if a top actress like say Kate Winslet sits at an Oscar every year and says to herself, I was offered 3 of those nominated roles and I am being hard on Pfeiffer or if she has really turned down a great number of top roles compared to other top actresses.
Also, note that I have also done some editing. I basically added detail about the Awards and nominations bequeathed on roles that she turned down. I am not sure if I was overly wordy. E.G. "In 1996, she turned down the role of Eva Perón in the biopic Evita, which went to Madonna and earned her the Golden Globe Award for Best Actress in a Motion Picture Musical or Comedy" could be "In 1996, she turned down the Golden Globe Award-winning role of Eva Perón in the biopic Evita, which went to Madonna"--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:05, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I rephrased that thing and added the Thelma and Lousie role. I'm still looking for reliable sources to include the Sleepless in Seattle role.--Gunt50 (talk) 20:30, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You might be able to rephrase all the ones I did. Please add Academy Award-nominated role in some form to Louise.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:47, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I did that about Louise's role. What sentences you rephrased are you talking about? The ones you mention on this nom. page?--Gunt50 (talk) 00:36, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think I was talking about some of these edits about others were nominated or won. I am having second thoughts about adding that stuff now that I am working on Julia Roberts. What do you think of it?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:01, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I will pass this now.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:03, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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