Talk:Mel Blanc

Death

I do not wish to edit...rather to inform. The section on Mel's death is in nearly complete conflict with information from his Son Neal, contained as a video interview/commentary here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRlmb0xAtBs .Starts at 1:02:00..for about 15 sec. Perhaps someone could review and in the interest of accuracy make the appropriate change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.251.156.144 (talk) 07:37, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

I see that I'm not the only one who has tried to add this in. I have attempted to edit Mel Blanc's Wikipedia page to contain this new information on a number of occasions, however the Administrators do not believe that Mel's son Noel is a reliable source, despite him clearly stating in the documentary about his life that Mel died as a result of a fall in hospital when an orderly had forgot to put the bed rail up. From this Mel consequently broke his femur, resulting in a fat emboli being released into his brain causing a stroke and he died within 48 hours of the fall taking place. After attempting to add this information for a second time, it is again reverted and I am told that "this is a claim that has never been confirmed. For such a claim, a truly reliable source is required" whatever that means. Is his son not a reliable source? --Zoyetu (talk) 14:05, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

A distraught son commenting on events connected to the death of his father is not a reliable source. For one, Noel is not a doctor, and cannot therefore credibly discuss whether the fall (if there was one, we really don't know) induced a medical condition which lead to Blanc's death. For another, my understanding is that there was a lawsuit based on this contention, and therefore Noel had an obvious potential conflict of interest. No, what we need to add this to the article is a credible and rigorously reliable secondary source which has investigated the claim and determined it to be true, or at least very likely. A biography would be good, but not one which simply reports "According to his son Noel...", one which looked into the incident independently.

The story may well be true, I have no idea, but then, neither do you. We have an obligation to our readers and to our reputation to be as accurate as possible, and simply sticking in the story without the required confirmation does not fulfill those obligations. Remember, we are not a blog, we are an encyclopedia, and people rely on us to get accurate information. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:40, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Your understanding of a lawsuit is incorrect. The only lawsuit filed due to medical issues with Mr Blanc was against the City of Los Angeles after the car accident. Flybd5 (talk) 21:57, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

From a purely neutral standpoint, whether or not Noel's story is legit I can't imagine a story being fabricated of a fall from a hospital bed being a major contributor to Mel's death. sixtynine ^{• speak up •} 01:21, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, a failure of your ability to imagine such a scenario doesn't really have much relevance, does it? Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:47, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

And this comment alone demonstrates why Wikipedia is no better a source of information than IMDB. Flybd5 (talk) 21:59, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Now take a minute and find out what's bothering you that you felt the need for hostility. Have a nice day. sixtynine ^{• speak up •} 03:58, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Do me a favor, just don't post silliness such as "I can't imagine X" about people you don't know in a situation you weren't in and expect it to be blithely accepted as a positive contribution to a Wikipedia discussion. The fact that you can't imagine something is relevant to nothing, especially since I've actually given you a possible example of why it might have occured. I don't say that it did, and I don't say that Noel Blanc is lying, all I've been saying is that the story is sourced to Blanc alone, confirmed by nobody as to the truth of the matter (not that he said it), and there are a number of potential reasons why he might have said it, so it cannot go in the article. Someone writing an autobiography of Mel Blanc who had permission to see his hospital records could almost certainly verify a fall (or not), so a source is possible, we just don't have it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:39, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Per WP:NOTFORUM Please keep the conversation relevant to the article topic. If you must engage in personal quibbles, use your own talk pages. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mediatech492 (talk • contribs) 03:11, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

And if you must make a comment such as the above, please sign it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:45, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't doubt his son's story. In fact, what he's saying is likely true. However, it contradicts numerous sources, which say his cause of death was emphysema and heart disease, not "falling out of his hospital bed and breaking his leg, releasing fat emboli into his brain, causing a stroke". Again, I don't think he's making it up, in fact, I'm 98% sure that that is what happened, but him simply saying that, contradicting media reports, is not reliable enough. Look up sources from media outlets from after his death, every single one says he either died of heart disease, with emphysema as a contributing factor, or vice versa. Dpm12 (talk) 10:22, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad you agree, but this just is not the place to discuss our own personal opinions of what we are "98% sure of" or what we "can't imagine" happened. This is the place to discuss changes to the article, and -- as you point out -- unless we have reliable neutral sources to support something, it's just not going into the article, and there's just no way that Noel can be neutral about his father's death. So unless someone has a reliable source to offer concerning Blanc's death -- preferably one that fulfills WP:MEDRS, as that is a medical matter -- I suggest that any further discussion on this issue be curtailed, and any additional comments removed per WP:TPO and WP:NOTAFORUM. Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:56, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

I was simply telling the OP why Noel is not a reliable source, and the side comments were related that. What I was saying had everything to do with the topic at hand. And, having been a registered member for 11 years, I'm quite aware that the talkpage is not meant as a springboard for message board type discussions. I was simply just mentioning why Noel is not a neutral source, and added my own two cents in addition. That isn't a crime. Dpm12 (talk) 13:13, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Could it at least be noted that there is some contention that cannot be proven? Wiesnerc (talk) 23:41, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

A contention that cannot be proven is the definition of WP:OR, and is not includable. Mediatech492 (talk) 23:58, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

The only way that Noel's version of his father's death will be brought into this article is if a reliable source publishes it. And in that case, it would be presented as a contradictory minor opinion. Binksternet (talk) 00:21, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Credible Sources

There appears to be an argument about what is and is not a credible source. From what I have always understood about citing on wikipedia, credible newspapers such as the New York Times are allowed to be used for a source. What could also be used, provided it is placed properly, is actually the IMDB page for Blanc or the Road Runner, as all of the films or shows have already been released. Though he was not the main voice of the Road Runner-which the honor goes to Paul Julian-he did provide the voice now and again for the Warner Bros. company.Tapper930 (talk) 01:18, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Please see WP:Citing IMDB. Because IMDB can be edited by the public, and their vetting process is poor, they are not considered to be a WP:RS for most uses. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:56, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

It is understandable that IMDB can be edited by the public. However, also understand that the pages are checked periodically by the administrators. They can then check things which have already aired very easily. Thus, according to the Wikipedia guidelines of citing IMDB, released films and shorts are allowed to cite. However, films that are still in development are not allowed to be used.Tapper930 (talk) 04:12, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

You are incorrect. The pages are not "checked periodically" - someone looks at submitted info and then moves it into the site or doesn't. They don't recheck unless prodded to from the outside. They do very little fact checking. The guideline that you cite is here Wikipedia:Citing IMDb#Disputed uses and you will note that using it for released films is "disputed." MarnetteD|Talk 16:29, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

I believe Warner Bros. has a web site and may have the needed information there. They are the owners of the Road Runner character, and would be the logical source to check first. Mediatech492 (talk) 04:24, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

According to Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies: A Complete Illustrated Guide to the Warner Bros. Cartoons, by Jerry Beck and Will Friedwald, Blanc was only credited for "vocal characterizations" on 3 of the 42 Road Runner cartoons, "Going Going Gosh" (1952), "Zipping Along" (1953), and "Guided Muscle" (1955). Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:59, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Mel Blanc's history: why delete the name of his production company?

Hello. I added a sentence describing that Mel Blanc and his son Noel created their production company, Blanc Communications Corporation, in 1962. I felt that this extra bit of Mel Blanc's history is important, as it explains his ability to work with numerous stars on over 5000 radio and television commercials. This is part of Mel's work history!

I properly cited my added statement by providing web references to his company and its official web contact page. Within 15 minutes, a user named Binkersnet deleted the sentence. Believeing it was a simple mistake by Binkersnet, I undid his edit and returned my original edit. Then Binkersnet was apparently offended and placed an "Edit War" notification on my account. Why??? I only reported a legitimate part of Mel Blanc's history. Please help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wordsandpictures (talk • contribs) 23:57, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

That user's usename is Binksternet, and have just now invited them here to talk with you about their edit. General Ization ^Talk 00:02, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

The first appearance of the addition about the production company was based on a search query and a primary source. Searches are not considered reliable sources. Primary sources do not show that the enterprise is important to the topic. (Wikipedia is built on WP:SECONDARY sources.) A bit later, another citation was added from a wiki reference. Wiki references are not considered reliable sources, and per WP:SELFPUB they are not allowed. All of these reasons are why I removed the announcement of a production company. If there is some reliable publication showing that the production company has been significant to the life and career of Mel Blanc, then I would not remove this information. Otherwise it's too trivial to mention. Binksternet (talk) 00:14, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Please note also that as a family member of Mel Blanc and an executive of Blanc Communications Corporation (per your own disclosure here), you should not be editing this article directly. Please see the notice I put on your Talk page. General Ization ^Talk 00:18, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Please note that Wordsandpictures has asked for my help on my talk page[2] and filed a request at medcom[3]

My advice to Wordsandpictures: slow down. I will be happy to carefully walk you through the procedure for making sure that the Mel Blanc page is up to date and accurate, but there are other things I need to get done this evening, so you might have to wait until tomorrow. Please give me time to help you, and please check User talk:Guy Macon tomorrow morning. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:31, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

One more reason I had for deleting the brief mention of Blanc Communications Corporation was that it appeared to be self-serving, with the prominent statement that the company was still in business.

Since Mel's business endeavors were described in his book That's Not All Folks, I think it would be okay to talk about how Mel established Mel Blanc Associates, with "no business acumen whatsoever" in late January 1961, at the corner of Hollywood and Vine, in a "dingy, cramped seventh-floor office" of the Taft Building. The business was dealt a severe blow when Mel had his terrible car accident a few days later. Mel describes how the business was rebranded Blanc Communications Corp. in January 1974 to become "a full-service ad agency", in a larger office on Wilshire Blvd, with Noel as president. Mel writes about how the new agency won broadcast honors and "several Best Commercial awards" from the AFA. Mel describes how one 1975 TV commercial for American Express gave him a great deal of face recognition with the public. So there's a foundation for a decent integration of the business endeavor run by Mel and Noel into this biography. Binksternet (talk) 00:38, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Suggested changes

First, please accept my sincere apology to all for creating an unwitting edit war (Yikes!) or appearance of conflict-of-interest when posting my minor edit of the page "Mel Blanc" referring to Mel Blanc's production company, Blanc Communications Corporation. I’ll confess: I'm a complete neophyte to Wikipedia (which is probably quite apparent already). As such, I mistakenly assumed that I needed to provide citations validating the actual existence of Mel's radio and television production company, Blanc Communications Corporation. In hindsight I can see how my selected citations appeared promotional in nature, rather than informational. I wish to assure you and all concerned editors that this was not my intention. During the Mel Blanc Associates/Blanc Communications years, Mel and his son Noel produced over 5000 public service announcements and commercials featuring major stars like Kirk Douglas, Lucille Ball, Vincent Price, Phyllis Diller, Liberace, the rock band The Who, and of course Mel himself. It is for the above reason that I wanted to include Blanc Communications as a vital — and colorful — part of Mel Blanc's career. Below I have pasted links to two historically-focused, outside Web references that are NOT controlled by myself or Blanc Communications Corporation. Is there any way for you to evaluate the links listed below and see if they represent unbiased references? Here they are: https://www.encyclopedia.com/media/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/blanc-mel-1908-1989, https://archive.org/stream/ThatsNotAllFolksByMelBlancAndPhilipBasheStarbrite/Thats_Not_All_Folks_by_Mel_Blanc_and_Philip_Bashe_%28Starbrite%29_djvu.txt I hope these are sufficient replacement citations for the previous ones I ignorantly placed in my edit of the Mel Blanc page. Editor Binksternet felt that the suggested replacements above are good. Please let me know if these references would allow my edit to be restored, or if you have suggestions for a better edit that shares the Blanc Communications era as part of his life history. Kindest Regards, wordsandpicturesWordsandpictures (talk) 19:23, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

I appreciate your efforts to create an appropriate edit for Blanc Communications Corporation on the Mel Blanc page

Thank you all very much for your help. It's a steep learning curve, but the lessons learned are crucial. And I'm grateful that Wikipedia editors are so careful in making sure that information on this site is as accurate and factual as possible. Kudos to you!

In searching for additional credible Web-based sources for Mel Blanc's company Blanc Communications Corporation, I did find this book: https://www.amazon.com/Mel-Blanc-Man-Thousand-Voices/dp/1593932596/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1537904866&sr=1-1&keywords=mel+blanc.

Actually, there are numerous references to Mel's company. However, a large percentage of those are Web archived in PDF format (I don't know how to cite those). And unfortunately Mel Blanc Associates and Blanc Communications never had much of a Web presence -- not only was their work created pre-Internet, but the company never maintained a website referencing its history.

To further complicate Web searches for Mel's company, there is now a 4 year-old media startup using the dba "Blanc Communications". The young proprietress of this dba has plastered her sound-alike company name all over the Web and social media -- creating further difficulties for a searcher to discern Mel's California-based Blanc Communications CORPORATION from the newer (also California-based) Blanc Communications startup. Sigh...

wordsandpicturesWordsandpictures (talk) 20:31, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Proposed changes

I have some books on order, and plan on using them to improve this article.

So far, I am thinking of adding the following to the later career section (subject to being able to verify the info with proper citations once I have the books):

In 1962, Mel and his son Noel formed Blanc Communications Corporation, a media company which remains in operation. Mel and his son Noel produced over 5000 public service announcements and commercials, appearing with Kirk Douglas, Lucille Ball, Vincent Price, Phyllis Diller, Liberace, and The Who.

Books I have on order:

Blanc, Mel (1908-1989) St. James Encyclopedia of Popular Culture (I have the 2000 edition on order from Amazon and will verify the citation when it arrives. Alas, the latest (2013) edition costs over a thousand dollars.)

Mel Blanc: The Man of a Thousand Voices by Ben Ohmart (I have this on order from Amazon)

[That's Not All Folks by Mel Blanc (I have this on order from Amazon)

Melvin the Mouth by Katherine Blanc (I have this on order from Amazon)

No doubt I will have more to add later. Any suggestions as to what to add to the article and what to cite are welcome. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:38, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

A thought... there a few additional search results that reference Blanc Communications Corporation; however, most are scanned documents saved as Web pages ending in .pdf file format. Would it be helpful for me to upload any of these here? (although, it might be exhausting to read them). Noel and I also have a collection of awesome photos of Mel and Noel in the Blanc Communications studio with major stars. I could upload a few of those images too if they'd help. wordsandpicturesWordsandpictures (talk) 16:19, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

No, don't upload PDFs for citations/references. The sources should be published by third parties. Binksternet (talk) 18:02, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Got it. I'm leavin' it all up to you -- or as Mel would say, YOUS. wordsandpicturesWordsandpictures (talk) 18:19, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Good plan. Wikipedia:Best practices for editors with close associations has some excellent advice for you.

That being said, if you and Noel want to, you can upload any pictures that own the copyright to and wish to release under a CC BY-SA 3.0 License (or I could upload them for you). These wouldn't be used as sources for this page (we don't let anyone generate their own sources -- imagine what the Neo Nazi Holocaust deniers or the Church Of Scientology would want us to use as sources if we allowed that), but they would then be free to use -- with attribution -- on Wikipedia or anywhere else. Don't do this if you even suspect that the images have commercial value. In that case keep the copyright so you can sell the image rather than giving away the image for free. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:44, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

And be sure to email Wikimedia with your permissions to use any images you upload. - FlightTime (open channel) 19:50, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

We may consider licensing some never-before-shared Blanc Communications studio images for display on Mel's Wikipedia page, but first we must see if the corrected edits are approved. Otherwise the images would make no sense. The Mel Blanc Associates/Blanc Communications Corporation decades represent a large (30 year) chunk of Mel's work history that's missing from his life story here; it would be a shame if there was no mention of it at all. Thank you Guy Macon and Binksternet for your editorial efforts. wordsandpicturesWordsandpictures (talk) 21:20, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Note: Two Web references that could possibly be used to further prove that Mel Blanc had his own production company in his later career years:

Ok, I'm outta' here for a bit. wordsandpicturesWordsandpictures (talk) 23:58, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

References

Stray dogs

According to Wickedpedia and Disney Wiki, he voiced the stray dogs in Lady and the Tramp. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:18D:4701:C4A0:CC13:E4C7:E2F:2679 (talk) 17:16, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Wiki's cannot be used as a source because they are WP:USERGENERATED If you can find a WP:RS stating this then the info can be added to the article. MarnetteD|Talk 17:21, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

I am pretty sure that Lady and the Tramp#Cast gets it right, but that article could certainly use a citation to an official source listing the cast. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:23, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

External links

@Guy Macon: What specific value do you feel is offered by the Find-a-Grave link? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:58, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

It allows the interested reader to find Mel Blanc's Grave. there are a bunch of pages that have FaG links:[4] If you wish Wikipedia to not include them, an RfC would seem to be in order. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:12, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

We already have WP:FINDAGRAVE-EL which describes consensus around the link - that it is sometimes appropriate to include, but only if it offers something of unique value, given that most of the content is user-generated. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:18, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Another item to consider is WP:ELNO item #1 "...the site should not merely repeat information that is already or should be in the article." I can't find any information at the FaG site that isn't already in the article. MarnetteD|Talk 03:45, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Please quote the exact wording of the article that allows the interested reader to find Mel Blanc's Grave. What part of the existing article says to go to Garden of the Exodus, Section 13, plot L-149?

WP:FINDAGRAVE-EL is quite clear on this: "Sometimes, an [external] link is acceptable because of a specific, unique feature or information that is not available elsewhere, such as valuable images and location information of graves."

WP:FINDAGRAVE-EL also says "Since it's not a reliable source, it should not be cited as a source, but having an external link allows others to find where information comes from. Such material is rarely controversial (WP:CHALLENGE). --Guy Macon (talk) 13:27, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

I would also be most interested in why it is that you don't want the interested reader to find Mel Blanc's Grave, when the same reader can easily find the graves of William S. Irvine, Frederick Barnett Kilmer, Ronald H. Haines, Richard Lemon Owings, Kathryn Forbes, Collis Featherstone, Juan Luis Panero, Gideon Louis Boissevain, Charles G. Bennett, William Clark Noble, Alexander D. Shimkin, Joseph B. Reynolds... I could fill this page with examples. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:22, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Reference 33 had the info all along and the recently added 34 backs that up so there are plenty of reliable sources that avoid the WP:USERGENERATED website. All the other articles fall under WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. MarnetteD|Talk 01:10, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Oh, please

... the blank/blanc caveat works much better as an efn than hidden (ahem);
Mel's name is (seriously) redundant with the Benny cast;
Snafu belongs farther down the page;
captioning a headstone is ...
Never freakin' mind.
--Oblio4 (talk) 02:16, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
p.s.