Talk:Maxine Feldman

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The entry has a major omission. Max Feldman identified as transgender starting in the 1990s and later specifically as male

The article is therefore mis-gendering him and should be corrected as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gender_identity since his prefered pronouns at the time of his death were masculine

I'll be updating the article to reflect these issues Jerilyn Franz (talk) 02:39, 12 September 2016 (UTC) (talk) 01:51, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

"his prefered pronouns at the time of his death were masculine" — source please? I can't find any sources indicating that Feldman preferred masculine pronouns. Even the obituary that uses "he" throughout says, "Thornton, who referred to Feldman with both masculine and feminine pronouns in interviews and emails, characterized the issue of Feldman's gender identification as a 'both/and' situation as opposed to 'either/or.'" (emphasis mine) Another post about Feldman says "Maxine didn’t care which pronoun was used for her."[1] It seems very presumptuous to assume "he" is any more correct than "she," especially since all sources seem to say Feldman used "he" in addition to "she," when at all. The obituary claims "most of his friends knew Feldman only as male and said he was most comfortable using male pronouns" but doesn't cite a single quote or person for this information, and Feldman's partner said "s/he" used both. So if the only argument for using masculine pronouns is that one questionable sentence, please provide another source to back it up. —Emiellaiendiay 23:18, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

The cited article cites "his friends" and states, specifically that Though some who knew Feldman well from his early days in the women's music movement were unaware of this change, most of his friends knew Feldman only as male and said he was most comfortable using male pronouns http://providence.edgemedianetwork.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=&sc2=news&sc3=&id=36268 That sentence is not in the least ambiguous. The additional information given parses to me as 'they didn't get upset if someone else failed to call them via male pronouns' - which is a different thing than the preference. My own preferences are female pronouns - but it doesn't seriously upset me if people use 'they' instead. But it still isn't my preference. Jerilyn Franz (talk) 04:15, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

That's the sentence I'm talking about. It says "most of his friends" but doesn't cite a single name or quote. The only name is Feldman's partner, Helen Thornton (and we can assume they were close), who doesn't say what that sentence is claiming at all; she specifically says "s/he," not "He preferred 'he' but didn't mind being called 'she,'" which is what you're saying. Where are the sources for the claim Feldman identified as male and preferred masculine pronouns? Who are the friends? Surely there's something on the Internet about Feldman preferring "he" if most friends knew, besides that one article with its contradictory information. Please provide a source to back it up. — Emiellaiendiay 07:12, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

== Denial of transgender identity by Hilarymarsh and reversion vandalism

It is not sufficient to make an unreferenced claim that Max Feldman was not in fact transgender when the references clearly document that he did identify as transgender at the time of his death. As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gender_identity his pronouns should be those he himself used

If you disagree with this, please justify your position with references or use the dispute resolution procedure at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_requests/DRN rather than reverting it again. An edit war would profit no one. If you choose revert it again rather than engaging in talk about it for consensus here or via the dispute resolution procedure, I will simply revert again and file a dispute resolution request to have the page protected from vandalism — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snowhare (talk • contribs) 11:47, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

== Unsourced reversions again by 70.55.26.190

There appears to be a persistent effort to erase the fact that Maxine Feldman was documented transgender from his entry with no discussion happening here in Talk, or outside referenes being added. Since fighting the vandalism is becoming a regular event, I am raising a dispute resolution request on this to protect the page against drive by edits — Preceding unsigned comment added by Snowhare (talk • contribs) 11:10, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

== Unsourced revisions and reversions by Purplerhinoceros

Please discuss here before reverting Max's pronouns or attempting to minimize his transgender identity again. Under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Gender_identity his pronouns should be consistently through the article those he himself perferred at the time of his death. Which as is clearly documented in the first reference (was male. You need to provide referenced justification for exclusively using female pronouns to refer to him as opposed to the pronouns his friends indicated he preferred:

"Though some who knew Feldman well from his early days in the women's music movement were unaware of this change, most of his friends knew Feldman only as male and said he was most comfortable using male pronouns" http://providence.edgemedianetwork.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=&sc2=news&sc3=&id=36268

We have already had to have this page semi-protected against drive-by anon edits on this issue. It would be unfortunate if the page had to be taken to full protection

Jerilyn Franz (talk) 14:13, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Also from the same reference "Thornton, who referred to Feldman with both masculine and feminine pronouns in interviews and emails, characterized the issue of Feldman's gender identification as a "both/and" situation as opposed to "either/or."" From the link cited above: http://providence.edgemedianetwork.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=&sc2=news&sc3=&id=36268

I think that Maxine surely identified as female when calling herself a Lesbian in the 1970s, and when writing Angry Atthis and Amazon. Can we compromise and use gender neutral terms until the last paragraph when the late in life Transgender identity is discussed?

Here is another source for Gender fluidity: http://jwa.org/weremember/feldman-maxine I would like to edit for gender neutrality (no more "she," if others object). I want to honor Maxine's legacy truthfully, and I do not think that "School officials asked him to leave the college after they learned he was lesbian" reads as accurate to what happened.

Suggested edit for this section:

Following high school, Feldman moved to Boston to attend Emerson College and study theater arts. School officials asked Feldman to leave the college after they learned s/he was lesbian and invited Feldman to come back only after a year of psychiatric treatment. Feldman was sent to a doctor who used electroshock therapy, but refused to follow through with the treatments. Feldman worked and performed in the Boston area from 1963 until 1966, emceeing at the Oasis Coffeehouse and other venues, at one point introducing a then-unknown José Feliciano.[3] Purplerhinoceros (talk) 03:06, 30 September 2016 (UTC) Purplerhinoceros

I do not want to "erase" Feldman's transgender identity, but do question that S/he did in fact identify as solely male. I read your cited source, Snowhare, and I think you are mistaken. Please respond. I will edit with gender neutral language tomorrow. Purplerhinoceros (talk) 03:24, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the discussion :)

While it is clear Max identified as a butch lesbian in their younger years, the wikipedia rule on gender identity is very clear that it is their own last preferred pronouns that controls the pronoun choice regardless of date. I think there is an ambiguity here that may be best resolved by using gender neutral speech overall, but I think there should be a specific acknowledgement that at a minimum they clearly leaned to the trans masculine side.

This is what the rule suggests when their identity may come as a surprise to some people: When a person's gender self-designation may come as a surprise to readers, explain it without overemphasis on first occurrence in an article.

How about this? Use Feldman unless it would be unreasonably awkward, use 'they' where it doesn't jar. Use 'he' if the structure of the sentence or the intent of the sentence requires it to be gendered.

Maxine Feldman ("Max") (December 26, 1945 – August 17, 2007) was a transgender American folk singer-songwriter and pioneer of women's music. In 1969 Feldman made what was now acknowledged as the first openly distributed out lesbian song ("Angry Atthis") of what would soon become the "women's music" movement. Feldman described themselves as a "big loud Jewish butch lesbian".

In later years Feldman more fully embraced their transgender identity. Many who knew Feldman well from his early days in the women's music movement were unaware of this change, but most of his friends knew Feldman only as male and said he was most comfortable using male pronouns.

Maxine Adele Feldman was born on December 26, 1945 in Brooklyn, New York. Feldman had a stutter and asked their parents for lessons in acting when they were young. Feldman had a bit part as a Girl Scout Brownie on the The Goldbergs. They were accepted at the High School of Performing Arts and performed in children's theater productions.

Following high school, Feldman moved to Boston to attend Emerson College and study theater arts. School officials asked them to leave the college after they learned Feldman was lesbian and told them they could come back after a year of psychiatric treatment. Feldman's parents sent them to a doctor who used electroshock therapy and but Feldman refused to follow through with the treatments. They worked and performed in the Boston area from 1963 until 1966, emceeing at the Oasis Coffeehouse and other venues, at one point introducing a then-unknown José Feliciano.

This reduces the level of explicit gendering, while still clearly recognizing that they did prefer male pronouns. It is not accurate to claim they were just genderfluid - they had a distinct self-identified leaning towards trans masculine (which is not to say they were not likely also what would be called non-binary today) Jerilyn Franz (talk) 04:03, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. I do think this ^^ sounds more accurate to history than the use of all male pronouns did. I do wonder about your insistence that the quote from the article "most of his friends knew Feldman only as male and said he was most comfortable using male pronouns." is the definitive end-all. It is followed immediately within the source with "Thornton, who referred to Feldman with both masculine and feminine pronouns in interviews and emails, characterized the issue of Feldman's gender identification as a "both/and" situation as opposed to "either/or." "I think that would be truest to Max's reality," Thornton wrote in an email. "S/he was nothing if not complex.""

According to this article Thornton was Feldman's partner for the last four years of their life. I would take the word of Feldman's partner over the word of this article writer as to the preferred gender/pronouns. >>::

That isn't a consistent position. You are saying 'I take the word of the writer about what their partner said, but reject what the word of the writer about what their friends said'. I believe both statements are likely true. I think it is erasure to refuse to use male pronouns here for them - but I think compromise there given the complex identity stated by their partner to be reasonable. But to complete erase the very clear statement that they identified themselves as male to most of their friends is to be false to history.

How about this:

Maxine Feldman ("Max") (December 26, 1945 – August 17, 2007) was a lesbian/transgender American folk singer-songwriter and pioneer of women's music. In 1969 Feldman made what was now acknowledged as the first openly distributed out lesbian song ("Angry Atthis") of what would soon become the "women's music" movement. Feldman described themselves as a "big loud Jewish butch lesbian".

In later years Feldman embraced a transgender identity. Many who knew Feldman well from their early days in the women's music movement were unaware of this change. Feldman's complex gender identification was described by loved ones as "both/and" as opposed to "either/or.

Maxine Adele Feldman was born on December 26, 1945 in Brooklyn, New York. Feldman had a stutter and asked their parents for lessons in acting when they were young. Feldman had a bit part as a Girl Scout Brownie on the The Goldbergs. They were accepted at the High School of Performing Arts and performed in children's theater productions.

Following high school, Feldman moved to Boston to attend Emerson College and study theater arts. School officials asked them to leave the college after they learned Feldman was lesbian and told them they could come back after a year of psychiatric treatment. Feldman's parents sent them to a doctor who used electroshock therapy and but Feldman refused to follow through with the treatments. They worked and performed in the Boston area from 1963 until 1966, emceeing at the Oasis Coffeehouse and other venues, at one point introducing a then-unknown José Feliciano.

Purplerhinoceros (talk) 04:39, 30 September 2016 (UTC) edited because I had the citation wrong. Purplerhinoceros (talk) 04:42, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

The use of '/' suggests 'or' in this context, when it is 'and'. So I would revise that like this:

Maxine Feldman ("Max") (December 26, 1945 – August 17, 2007) was a lesbian, transgender, American folk singer-songwriter and pioneer of women's music. In 1969 Feldman made what was now acknowledged as the first openly distributed out lesbian song ("Angry Atthis") of what would soon become the "women's music" movement. Feldman described themselves as a "big loud Jewish butch lesbian".

I can't go with the complete erasure of their public identification as masculine. I would revise this way:

In later years Feldman embraced a publically masculine transgender identity. Many who knew Feldman well from their early days in the women's music movement were unaware of this change. Feldman's complex gender identification was described by loved ones as "both/and" as opposed to "either/or.

Maxine Adele Feldman was born on December 26, 1945 in Brooklyn, New York. Feldman had a stutter and asked their parents for lessons in acting when they were young. Feldman had a bit part as a Girl Scout Brownie on the The Goldbergs. They were accepted at the High School of Performing Arts and performed in children's theater productions.

Following high school, Feldman moved to Boston to attend Emerson College and study theater arts. School officials asked them to leave the college after they learned Feldman was lesbian and told them they could come back after a year of psychiatric treatment. Feldman's parents sent them to a doctor who used electroshock therapy and but Feldman refused to follow through with the treatments. They worked and performed in the Boston area from 1963 until 1966, emceeing at the Oasis Coffeehouse and other venues, at one point introducing a then-unknown José Feliciano.

Jerilyn Franz (talk) 16:41, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

I think this is fair. If no one else is going to chime in Emiellaiendiay Ymblanter ? , I think We should proceed with this ^^ last version. Would you like to implement or shall I? Thank you for discussing and considering. Purplerhinoceros (talk) 18:27, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Snowhare, you said: "That isn't a consistent position. You are saying 'I take the word of the writer about what their partner said, but reject what the word of the writer about what their friends said'. I believe both statements are likely true. I think it is erasure to refuse to use male pronouns here for them - but I think compromise there given the complex identity stated by their partner to be reasonable. But to complete erase the very clear statement that they identified themselves as male to most of their friends is to be false to history."

I hear you. I have re-read this article 20 times this week. There are so many other sources that only mention Feldman's lesbian legacy, and then there is this one article that asserts that he was trans. I find no reason to doubt this article other than the statistical weight of every other source versus this one. I do also wonder why this was published in Providence, when the narrative seems to be that Max was not getting out much and living in New Mexico in his last years. I wish I could reach out to someone in Max's later life like Thornton or any of the people considered to be "most of his friends." for consultation. I find it interesting that Max seems to have been so specifically male to some and so specifically female to others. (I am taking this all from this one article, which does list multiple view points). I knew Max but sadly last saw her in the 90's. Anyway. Thank you for working with me here. I have edited the page with your latest beginning. I hope my minor edits of the rest pass muster. Purplerhinoceros (talk) 03:06, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Pretty good overall. I noticed the second paragraph inadvertently got the n minus 1 revision from our discussion, so I updated it to match the final consensus version (the difference is "In later years Feldman embraced a transgender identity." vs "In later years Feldman embraced a publically masculine transgender identity." Because the text then repeated the later discussion of 'in later years' near the bottom, I deleted the second one. I made a couple of gender neutral pronoun replacements for Feldman elsewhere just to improve readability. It looks good to me. Agreed?

Thank you for the engagement and working on this as well. It is appreciated Jerilyn Franz (talk) 11:54, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

I am happy with it overall, and very happy that we were able to reach an agreement. thank you. Purplerhinoceros (talk) 07:12, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

References