Talk:Martyn Lloyd-Jones

Presbyterian?

ML-J was added to Category:Welsh Presbyterians, but he is the only member of that category and he is well known as a Baptist. Can anyone clarify? --Flex 13:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I did that. Martyn Lloyd-Jones was minister of Forward Movement in Port Talbot, which is, or was, a Presbyterian chapel. That's why I assumed he was one. Deb 16:14, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

While Martyn did pastor a Presbyterian church, he refereed to himself as a Calvinistic Methodist in both Murray's biography and in interviews like this one. •••••• Pair ' Dimes 18:56, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure. I had in my mind that he opposes infant baptism, a hallmark of Baptists, but he may not have been a Baptist proper. He may have been congregationalist. The article does say "He preached for the last time on June 8, 1980 at Barcombe Baptist Chapel." --Flex 16:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Anabaptists, commonly referred to today as simply Baptists, do not support infant baptism. Infant baptism is a hallmark of the Pedobaptists. Martyn was definitely opposed to infant baptism which is clearly stated in his second volume of Great Biblical Doctrines. What little preaching he was able to do toward the end of his life was largely itinerant, thus the preaching at Barcombe Baptist Chapel. One last note, Martyn believed in elder government and therefore could not have been a congregationalist. •••••• Pair ' Dimes 18:56, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

True. But Nonconformist ministers get around an awful lot. Deb 16:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I should add that I'm not sure what this category is supposed to be about in any case. I asked the question on the talk page, but there's been no response from the creator (that's creator with a small 'c'). Deb 16:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

There are lots of mistakes in this article - that could be corrected from Murray's biography. I will come back later and help fix some... he was not a cessationist, he sprinkled adults (so not a immersion mode typical baptist). WPS.

Of course, Westminster Chapel, where he ministered for a large part of his life was originally Congregationalist, and possibly towards the end of his tenure there became associated with the FIEC (Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches). I too would be willing to help correct the errors in the article - there are many sources, and possibly quite a few of us who attended there when the Doctor was minister. Agendum 14:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do! --Flex 15:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

He was bought up a Calvinistic Methodist, and his Church in Aberafon was Calvinistic Methodist. The Calvinistic Methodists were at the time a Presbyterian denomination and today they've changed their name to the Presbyterian Church of Wales. Although Westminster Chapel London was Congregational by name, could it be argued that it was governed in a Presbyterian way during Lloyd-Jones's period there? Either way, it's odd to mention Lloyd-Jones's presbyterianism at the head of the article, of all possible labels that isn't the one that stands out when you think of him. Rhys Llwyd (talk) 16:55, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Description of his ministry

I feel that the first line "a protestant Christian who headed much of the evangelical movement of the 20th century." doesn't properly describe the Doctor's position within evangelicalism, and I would like to change it. I don't think he would have liked to be described as "heading the evangelical movement"!

How about something like "protestant Christian minister who was hugely influential in the reformed wing of the British evangelical movement in the 20th century". Any comments? – Agendum 08:37, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree and have change it to your wording, as well as doing some further minor editing. The only thing I would query is your use of the word "reformed". Whilst I agree that his influence was primarily in this grouping, I think it would be fair to say that it extended further afield, probably across all of British evangelicalism. I may do some further editing to reflect this unless anyone strongly disagrees. Sidefall 10:25, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 23:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup and NPOV

Cleanup would entail converting the references to one style (inline or <ref> tags) and performing some copy editing that I don't have time for right now. POV material consists of quotes like "Lloyd-Jones' preaching style was therfore [sic] set apart by his sound exposition of biblical doctrine and his fire and passion in its delivery." and "Once the primary teaching was revealed, he would then logical [sic] expand this theme..." Mostly the new material is phrased in an NPOV way, but there are a few nits to be picked. --Flex (talk/contribs) 02:12, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Legacy

I don't know where the dispute is, but I would like to suggest the following on the section headed "Legacy": If his relationship to the charismatic movement was "little-discussed" was this perhaps because there was little relationship, or, perhaps, that the relationship was not conscious or overt? In this section, I cannot but feel that excessive weight has been placed upon limited evidence for ML-J's teaching of the Baptism of the Spirit. I do not reject the claim that he taught this, just the degree of emphasis, or the apparent importance given to it in the bio. It seems to me that it matters far more to the biographer than to ML-J! I have no real problem with the last two paras of this section: it is apparent to me that ML-J was no cessationist, and I can easily see him educating a TV producer on the real-life working of God's Holy Spirit! My suggestion, then, is that the first two paras should be reviewed and edited to reflect a more realistic (in my view!) priority (ie. lesser, much lesser) with regard to ML-J's views on the Baptism of the Spirit. - DBR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.38.64.208 (talk) 19:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. Can I suggest you register on Wikipedia - it makes life easier - and also please sign your comments. I've created a new section here called Legacy and moved your contribution here. I'm not sure who put the disputed tag on the Legacy section in the article - it possibly refers to such phrases like "Lloyd-Jones' preaching style was therefore set apart by his sound exposition of biblical doctrine" which aren't really NPOV. I do agree that this section could do with more work and would encourage you to have a go. The 1970s were a time of great argument over the charismatic/cessationist question and my (limited) understanding is that MLJ was not a cessationist but his primary constituency was the reformed evangelical community which, by and large, was (and still is) cessationist. Hence he was in an awkward position and tended not to identify with the charismatic movement (which frequently involved ecumenism which MLJ opposed). This whole area remains controversial and the degree of emphasis that should given to MLJs views will involve a degree of personal subjectivity. Please do some editing and hopefully we'll reach a consensus. Sidefall 09:02, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't describe myself as a specialist on MLlJ, but perhaps a crucial method of understanding his beliefs and, consequently, his legacy, is to understand his welsh calvinistic methodist background. i've read an article by him in 'puritan papers' mid 60's, in which he details this denomination's beliefs with admiration. His understanding of the work of the spirit would be based on this movement's great emphasis on the importance of vivid experience, a real walk with god. MLlJ saw himself within the theological tradition of Calvinistic methodism, and he worked for the Forward Movement in Aberavon, an evangelical movement within the denomination. One interesting episode in his life which cannot be discounted is his relationship with the denomination, whom rejected his application to lead its theological seminary. doubtless this colours his future attitudes towards denominationalism and anglicanism.

one should also consider the importance of the welsh revivalist tradition- revivals were a regular occurence in nineteenth century wales, and critical in the growth of welsh nonconformity. they were characterised by strong emotions, powerful workings of the spirit, and unusual signs and occurences. it has been a struggle for members of the welsh evangelical movement to understand their relationship with a decidedly non-cessationalist past with the near-denial of the work of the holy spirit which can characterize the general direction of conservative reformed evangelicalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.68.124.77 (talk) 01:34, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

May 2008

An unregistered user has just made some additions which seem of poor quality and possibly POV-pushing, with no sources given. I'm not an expect on MLJ, but in view of the above I'm minded to revert them as they don't improve this article IMO. Any thoughts? Sidefall (talk) 21:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, they should be sourced as they are a bit controversial.Brian0324 (talk) 21:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted them as this article is of good quality and well-sourced, so they're somewhat out of place. If the user who made them reads this, please register so we can easily talk to you and work together on improving Wikipedia. Sidefall (talk) 22:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I feel that the additions were, in fact, accurate, but clearly do need references to back them up. Where you would get those – particularly for the last paragraph – I am not sure. I'll have a look around. Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 23:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd suggest reading MLJs writings and biographies. Perhaps the additions could be placed here so people know what they are and can try to find sources. I'm afraid I can't help. Sidefall (talk) 23:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Dispute tag

What disputes remain? Shall we remove the tag? Hyper3 (talk) 13:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the tag. Hyper3 (talk) 15:37, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

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