Talk:Margaret of Burgundy, Duchess of Bavaria

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Move to Margaret of Burgundy, Duchess of Bavaria[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:09, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Margaret of Burgundy (1374-1441) → Margaret of Burgundy, Duchess of Bavaria — There were many women known as Margaret of Burgundy and it is obvious that we need some sort of disambiguation. However, putting the years of birth and death in the article title is not the best way to do it. When going through categories or disambiguation pages, it is much easier to realize that Margaret of Burgundy, Duchess of Bavaria, is the Margaret you need. Is she better known as Margaret of Burgundy, Duchess of Bavaria, or as Margaret of Burgundy who was born in 1374? Of course, the title she held by marriage is the best disambiguator. Therefore, I propose moving the article back to where it was before 31 March 2010. Surtsicna (talk) 16:26, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support I agree. While either title is fine with me, including Duchess of Bavaria is probably best for those who are unfamiliar with Margaret, and thus are not sure when exactly she lived and died. Ruby2010 (talk) 19:44, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Dates are the last resort for disambiguation. There is some discussion of these issues at [[Talk:WP:NCROY]]. Titles like this may appear clumsy, but may be the least problematic way of disambiguating some royal consorts, particularly if they had common names like Margaret. PatGallacher (talk) 21:17, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Margaret, Duchess of Bavaria may be enough, but we can discuss that another time. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 10:57, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose I can find no reliable sources using this term. DrKiernan (talk) 14:27, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What reliable sources use Margaret of Burgundy (1374-1441)]? The question is how to disambiguate (as we must do) a deeply ambiguous common name. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:11, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Is The promised lands: the Low Countries under Burgundian rule, 1369-1530 a reliable source? It refers to her as Margaret of Burgundy and it seems to provide many facts about her life and role in the succession dispute. Of course, we can't name the article simply Margaret of Burgundy because that's the most common name for several other women as well. We need some sort of disambiguation and the proposed one is, no doubt, better than the present one. Surtsicna (talk) 20:22, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Huh? I said she is called either "Margaret of Burgundy" or "Margaret, Duchess of Bavaria". There are no sources using "Margaret of Burgundy, Duchess of Bavaria": that conflates her maiden and marital names, a practice which PMAnderson previously thought "bizarre" [1]. DrKiernan (talk) 06:57, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - We already have Margaret of Scotland (Queen of Norway), so it's not that bizarre. PatGallacher (talk) 14:01, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - There are reliable sources that use "Margaret of Scotland, Queen of Norway". So I would presume that both he and I accept that title as appropriate. DrKiernan (talk) 15:21, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - We also have Yolande de Dreux, Queen of Scots. PatGallacher (talk) 19:47, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Dates are deprecated as a disambiguator, as some readers might possibly know she was the Duchess of Bavaria, but very few will have a clue when she was born or died. Skinsmoke (talk) 20:44, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move to Margaret, Duchess of Bavaria[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

She is known as either "Margaret of Burgundy" or "Margaret, Duchess of Bavaria"[2]. As "Margaret of Burgundy" as ambiguous, and "Margaret, Duchess of Bavaria" is not, the article should be at the latter title. The alternative move suggested is original research and is unsupported by reliable sources. DrKiernan (talk) 07:03, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Have a look at List of Bavarian consorts, there are no less than ten others called "Margaret" or "Margarete". Is this a case of WP:SNOW? PatGallacher (talk) 14:57, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~Oppose~~ Strongly oppose. She was no more Duchess of Bavaria than her 9 namesakes. She is not more notable than them either. She was one of 10 Bavarian duchesses called Margaret and that's 10 if count only the wives of the Bavarian rulers (i.e. if we do not count the daughters of Bavarian rulers named Margaret). Therefore, Margaret, Duchess of Burgundy is extremely ambigious. Surtsicna (talk) 20:10, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- She is the only one of them called "Margaret, Duchess of Bavaria" in reliable sources. DrKiernan (talk) 06:50, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Can you prove that? Proving a negative can be quite difficult. The 11 Margarets here must have received significant mention in dozens of books on European history, it would be quite difficult to prove that none of the other 10 has ever been called "Margaret, Duchess of Bavaria" in any reliable source. PatGallacher (talk) 14:01, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.