Talk:Lord British

Untitled

That's already in the external links section, proving the assassination of Lord British is notable and well referenced. Dream Focus 05:35, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Korean MMPORPG

Did not Lord British also appear in the Korean MMORPG entitled "Lineage: The Blood Pledge"? I know at least that it was intended that he would do so, but it appears to me that few have ever seen him in-game. We know at least that the production of Tabula Rasa has been performed under the banner of NCSoft (the Developer/Publisher of the Lineage games) since they offered a merger with Destination Games (a newly-founded company which was run by Richard Garriot and his brother; Robert Garriot) which was accepted.

--User:Fraek 21:55, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean "his friend Shamino" ?

Originally Shamino was one of Richard Garriott's aliases: in particular it was his alias for SCA. He came up with the name because SCA requires everyone to pick a name, and he noticed the name Shimano on his bike, which he misread as Shamino. (Reference: The Utlimate Book of Ultima)

Someone please clarify who his "friend Shamino" is, or remove the reference.

This section of the article is referring to the character Shamino (also a pseudonym of Garriott's), and not some real-life individual. Mvidales

Currently the article reads "The name Cantabrigian British is taken from his birthplace's name, Cambridge in the United Kingdom. The name was given to him by his friend Shamino, and later Cantabrigian British decided to leave his old name in favor of the new one." This seems confusing. "Cantabrigian British decided to leave his old name" means to me that Cantabrigian British is the old name. So what is the new name? Douglips 16:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

"Cantabrigian British" is the new name. The old name is unknown and is the given name of the character during his time on Earth. After Cantabrigian British came to Earth via the moongate, he befriended the character Shamino. Shamino influenced the now Cantabrigian British in changing his name to "Cantabrigian British". Mvidales 05:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The Lord British Postulate

Do we absolutely need this as a complete section? The term doesn't seem to be wide-spread at all, I get 6 Google hits and that's including Wikipedia mirrors... --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 09:08, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

...and basically, "Some Blogger Said This" is a bit weak as a source, don't you think? Perhaps this should be reconsidered. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 09:10, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I've certainly never heard of it. Maybe someone is using Wikipedia to start something? Whenever the number of Wikipedia mirrors outnumbers the number of real-world sources, it should be removed. C-Blade 02:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and edited it to show a proper source, but I'm not sure it needs its own section either. It's really little more than an MMO-specific version of "if it has stats, we can kill it". Technogeek (talk) 23:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Beleted. Not notable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.102.196.38 (talk) 14:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

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Origins of IRL nick

I'm pretty sure I read that he was born in the UK and moved to Texas at a young age, but to the local kids he still seemed to have an accent for much of his childhood, hence the nickname. Sorry about the lack of sources, but perhaps this could be looked into? It certainly seems odd that someone should be referred to as "Lord British" because they say "Hello" instead of "Hey". I've never been called Alien Overlord, despite saying "Greeting" since a very early age.

Here we go: http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,483/ - see also your wikipedia article on Richard Garriott. Funny that one article should have the info correct and another should have it completely absurd. Ah well, such is the wiki.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.20.97.220 (talk • contribs) 21:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Sources?

A couple of the sources just lead to deleted pages... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.218.145.113 (talk) 23:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The Official Book of Ultima says there was no way to kill Lord British in Ultima 4

The Official Book of Ultima says there was no way to kill Lord British in Ultima 4 or Ultima 5. Page 31 says that. Can someone confirm the methods used to kill him in the article for Ultima 4 actually worked? Dream Focus (talk) 20:42, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

• Better: Are there reliable sources that report methods used to kill him? VErifiability, not truth. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:54, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean for the other Ultimas? The Official Book of Ultima list everything from Ultima 1 to 6, and what happened during that time period concerning the Ultima series and their creator Richard Garriott. It does mention you can kill anyone in their sleep in Ultima 6, but doesn't say it had to be a glass sword, as mentioned in the article. I've played all the Ultimas and know the other methods listed for 7 and after, are successful, however for a reference there should be game sites out there that mention it. I saw on YouTube someone posted a video on how to poison the bread and kill Lord British in Ultima 9. I'll go get some links. Dream Focus (talk) 13:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBopehJuD-E There is a video showing on the NES version of Ultima 4, that the method listed could defeat him in battle. Once the battle is over though, he is still shown alive and well on his throne. Dream Focus (talk) 13:24, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Lord British is notable because-

Lord British isn't just a major character in an extremely notable game franchise, but also the nickname of legendary game designer Richard Garriott. See here: http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/697376/Richard-Lord-British-Garriott-Speaks-On-Indie-Games.html Dream Focus 08:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

• http://books.google.com/books?as_brr=0&q=%22Lord+British%22+%22Ultima%22&btnG=Search+Books Some books mention him in them. Third party coverage is thus established. Dream Focus 08:25, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Richard Garriot is notable. Are there any bits of third party making the character this article is about? The sources in those books are pretty obviously talking about Garriot exclusively from what I can see. And being someone's nickname isn't enough grounds to keep a whole character article.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 13:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Dream Focus + KungFuMan

Either start discussing, or stop reverting each other and edit war. Thanks, Sir Lothar (talk) 14:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

If you see above, we are discussing it. Dream Focus 16:43, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Great, I appreciate that, Sir Lothar (talk) 17:26, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Lord British's death section has had massive amounts of coverage

Computer Gaming World - March 2006 featured an article about the UO assassination. All of the deaths were listed in every gaming magazine there was back when those games came out. Finding archives of old magazines around at that time, is proving somewhat difficult though. The events have proven very newsworthy though. Found a major news site mentioning the character Lord British was back as General British. Dream Focus 23:06, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Every game guide out there ever published about Ultima, mentions this notable aspect, even though you don't need to know it to complete the game, and in fact it could potentially prevent you from doing so in some games. I don't think it needs more references added. Showing how a game character, Lord British, had a notable reoccurring bit in the games, is something the article should have. Dream Focus 17:16, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games#Lord_British

This article is being discussed. Ikip (talk) 21:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Sudden deletion of half of the article

I believe mentioning a key point about Lord British, he being his assassination in every game, and listing how it was done, is quite appropriate. Each assassination event is from a different game, getting plenty of coverage on its own at the time. And much of the other information deleted, is perfectly valid for an article as well. [1] After the changes at the top, I'm against all of the rest of it. Why erase the fact that the rights to the name Lord British were kept by its creator when he left, and that he appeared in his next game as General British? That and other facts are quite appropriate for the article. Also, I am concerned that the editor doing these sudden mass deletions of the article, is the only editor who said to delete the Avatar (Ultima) article when he nominated it for AFD, it closing as Keep today. Someone who already stated their opinions the Lord British article should not exist, shouldn't be the one editing it. It seems like pointless mass destruction of valid content to me. I'm reverting it. Please discuss any major changes, such as destroying more than half of the article's content, on the talk page. Dream Focus 02:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I have restored it. Replacing "Avatar" with "protagonist", is rather ridiculous. [2] Dream Focus 03:06, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

First, being able to kill a character and then detailing how is a bit much: Doctor Wily does not detail every damn appearance of him as a final boss. Second, the character "Avatar" was not called such until the fourth game from what I read, meaning "protagonist" is just fine. And lastly, a mass revert like that is disruptive, and reeks of WP:OWN. If you believe this is detrimental to wikipedia, I suggest you take it up with an admin.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 03:12, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

In all games from 4 onward he was called Avatar, and the history in every single one of these games, says it was he who was the hero in the first age of darkness(the first three games). Disruptive is you mass deleting half an article, just to have an excuse to merge it. That is the reason you did it isn't it? You seem to indicate that over at: Talk:List_of_Ultima_characters#Merge discussion Dream Focus 03:16, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Dream Focus, seriously, calm the hell down and assume some good faith and less conspiracy hogwash. You want to keep the article, start adding real-world information like character reception and development info. Great, he gets killed and people noted it. That really takes all of one or two sentences to cover. What else do you have?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 03:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Focus on the other content you erased please, not just that one thing. Dream Focus 03:20, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I erased what I felt was trivia: sentences bloated with peacock words and other text that could say the same thing in a smaller more concise context, game-guide material such as how to kill a character or whether he charges to heal you or not (this isn't GameFAQs), and material that wasn't related entirely to the article (we don't have to go into depth by someone that killed British got banned: he's not the article's focus). Right now the In-Universe tag has been removed, meaning that it just needs notability proven and references. Can you do that? Right now all you're doing is proving you have ownership issues with the article.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 03:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

• That incident got real world media coverage, and plenty of it, and it involves Lord British, so yes, it does belong in the article. Dream Focus 03:39, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Mentioning how the character changed over time, to something simple that healed you, to what he is now, is relevant, that how you monitor the growth of a character. Think of it like a movie series. If each movie, a main character had some significant change, wouldn't you list it? Dream Focus 03:42, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
    • As someone that's worked pretty heavily on character articles, I reworded it as seriously as I would if I was actively working on it, and hell, I did consider working on it until this whole disruptive bit with shouts of OMG HE'S DELETING IT ALL came about. To answer your question, what was left is what I feel the article needed. The rest such as detailing how to kill him isn't as important as detailing why this character is important to someone who has no knowledge of what the hell Ultima even is.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 03:45, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
      • I just added added a reference to a BBC article about a study on video game history, and just how important the deaths of Lord British are on people, that something many of those surveyed kept saying was a defining moment. Real world media coverage, proves it should be here, that study affecting all the assassinations of him in the Ultima games. Dream Focus 03:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
        • If anything that would've belonged in the paragraph about players wanting to assassinate the character, not as a paragraph of its own. And it doesn't make detailing every way to kill the character significant. You can argue Kenny McCormcik's death was a major bit for viewers the first time they saw it, yet it doesn't list every instance now does it? No.
        • I'm sorry Dream but the person in the way of improving this article is yourself. Now look: I'll agree that the character has some importance. Can you agree to go with what I had? I'll even toss in a comment that it would be helpful to hold off on merge discussions for the article if you can agree to that much.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 04:02, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
        • I am going to say this: a major problem this article has is that without Garriot, there isn't much, since the character is effectively him in a video game context. Google books presents that pretty clearly when you looking through the sources and what's being said...Ideally, this should be able to stand on its own.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 04:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
          • I think a middle way is best. I think the assassination part needs a lot of prosifying and some cutting, but it also is a good start on a plot section for the character. I haven't looked closely, but I ran across this from looking at the contributions related to the Avatar merge. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 04:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
          • Oh, and looking at User:Kung Fu Man, it seems like KFM can write Good Articles about stuff that some would like to delete, like Astaroth (Soulcalibur), which gives him a lot of credibility in my eyes. Dream also has credibility because of his ability to save a lot of articles with sourcing. Whatever, that's just my thought process. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 04:41, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Lord British assassinations references

• Does everyone agree that [3] is a notable reference for all assassinations? Everything in that section was mentioned in an article for a major magazine. Does this meet notability standards? Dream Focus 04:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

• Second question about this. Would showing each individual assassination receiving mention in one or more gaming magazine at the time the latest Ultima game was out, convince you of their notability? Dream Focus 04:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

• Does everyone now agree that at the very least, the coverage of the Ultima Online assassination should allow that part to be covered in current level of detail? Dream Focus 04:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Based on ComputerAndVideoGames.com, I would say that it is an RS (as we define it), nice find. I could be wrong, but I don't think we're basing our coverage on that article, though. Ideally, the unsourced info should be removed, and replaced with a summary of that article. That plus a bit more could make a GA, so this article should not be redirected, that much is clear (to me at least). If I was taking this article to GA (which I'm not), the first thing I would do is cut it way down, then build it back up. Cutting without rebuilding leaves it in a precarious position, where it may be redirected, so I'm not sure what to do, barring major work by others. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 04:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

That link simply proves its notable from legitimate third party media coverage. The information in the article is found in the Official Book of Ultima by Shay Addams, various tip books, or the games themselves. Dream Focus 05:07, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Ugh...Dream, can you please read WP:GAMEGUIDE? It's there for a reason...you don't need to cover everything. Case in point:

 Lord British does not appear in Ultima VIII.

Seriously? We need to note he doesn't appear in a game? The problem is, in a real-world context, detailing how to kill the character in various ways is kinda trivial. Several sites list in great detail for example a fighting game character's movelist. However you don't sit down and do a blow-by-blow of every attack, you consider in a reasonable context how to present the information to someone that may not know anything about video games period.

And when all's said and done...we're basically saying this article should exist because a) It's Richard Garriott in a video game and b) he has impact when he dies. But what else do we have? That won't work for a GA.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 05:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

• Listing every game and how he died in it, then skipping over one game, would be worse. Best to say he didn't appear in Ultima 8, he in all other Ultima games. A notable character found in every single Ultima game, other than one, well obviously someone should comment on that. Dream Focus 14:16, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Looking at the entry for VIII:

"Ultima VIII upset the fans. For one thing, it was released in a very buggy condition. By a complete coincidence, this was after Ultima developers Origin had been assimilated by Electronic Arts. Another reason the fans didn't like it was that it was set on the world of Pagan, not Britannia, so there was no Lord British to kill."

This contains real world info that is exactly what GAs are built upon. If the game guide said "Another reason the fans didn't like it was that it was set on the world of Pagan, not Britannia, so there was no Lord British to kill." then it gets more complicated. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 05:26, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

What bugs me about that is there are two ways to read that: "He wasn't in the game" and "fans reacted negatively he wasn't there to kill", and a good reviewer at GAN could easily argue that. Another source to confirm the latter would be ideal.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 05:30, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree that how to word it is problematic. It would take a lot of care. Ironically, that means that there is more to be added than less, since a long direct quote and maybe even some explanatory text may be needed. I'm a firm believer in no OR. While another source would truly be ideal (Dream, got one?), I wouldn't leave it out, but would include all the info required for the reader to make their own decisions. - 05:40, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I think it should read: "Another reason the fans didn't like it was that it was set on the world of Pagan, not Britannia." And then the part about "so there was no Lord British to kill." should be separate. They ran two things together. Britannia was a lot more fun, more towns and people, well established and familiar to fans. Pagan had only a small fraction of the NPCs to talk to, and all sorts of problems(idiotic jumping thing). Could probably find magazine reviews that mention these things as well. Anyway, if there is a problem, we discuss each point here on the talk page and form a consensus, not just go and wipe out half the article. Many people looked forward to figuring out how to kill Lord British in every game. The Official Book of Ultima does confirm this, and I remember playing the games each time, enjoying figuring things like that out as well. Dream Focus 14:16, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Well I enjoyed trying to figure out how to get Lara Croft naked in my younger years that doesn't mean it's notable enough for Lara's article. Point is, article needs more reception than that, otherwise you might as well say it's just an element of a series article more than a character bit.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 14:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The entry for Ultima 8 isn't something that needs to be discussed here, that a totally different article. Dream Focus 14:21, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

...you missed my point: Deaths aside and being the game persona of Garriott what else do we have to show Lord British the character has real-world importance?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 14:32, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I already added a link to a college professor's study, which shows just how important the character is, people remembering it, it affecting those in the real world. And do you believe every single movie and television show has real world importance? It just has to have coverage in legitimate third party sources, which it does. Notability has thus been established. Dream Focus 16:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

No, you demonstrated killing the character had some importance. And for this article to stand on its own two feet it needs to prove that the character itself is important as well. If all you can do is prove killing him is you might as well make an article called "Lord British Postulate" and go from there with the study. Take a look at any GA-FA character article and you'll see that they aren't propped up on one point but multiple facets.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 16:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The death of a character is notable based on the character, not the event. People die all the time in those games, and it doesn't have the same affect. I don't think anyone wants a separate article just for his deaths, and if it existed, it'd probably be merged over here again. Consensus thus far seems to be to leave it in there, based on its sources. Dream Focus 16:41, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm quickly losing my patience with you: you really aren't attempting at discussing this. Saying "he died and it affected people" isn't going to be enough to prop up the whole subject of the character. We've established his deaths have some notability and discussion. Yippie. But what about everything else for the character? Is there a reason for the rest of the info? Do scholars have anything to say about his importance? Did Lord British inspire some real-world item or homage etc. The burden of proof is upon you and so far you've stalled with "He dies, he's important and that's all".--Kung Fu Man (talk) 16:46, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't stalling. You keep bringing it up, so I discuss it. That is the majority of the article you were trying to delete. And that one aspect alone, do to media coverage, is enough to keep the article. His other aspects as being a notable character in multiple notable works of fiction, a cultural icon, the character that famed game designer Richard Garriott role plays and dresses up for for media events, etc. adds to his notability as well. Dream Focus 17:00, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

"His other aspects as being a notable character in multiple notable works of fiction, a cultural icon, the character that famed game designer Richard Garriott role plays and dresses up for for media events, etc. adds to his notability as well."

No, that doesn't. Those are all considered primary sources. So that does nothing for notability as WP:Notability defines it.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 18:40, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

• This is not a game guide. By listing the deaths of Lord British, an established notable and well referenced source, something published in third party sources, we only show exactly what is referenced, and therefore notable. Just as the article I'll be back list every movie Arnold said it in, and in what context, so it is we list what games these notable events happened in, and in what context, how it all went down. Dream Focus 16:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
  • That's a pretty terrible example...there's no quality in the I'll be back article really at all.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 16:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

"Lord British" AND "Ultima" get 316 results in Google News search

[4] "Lord British" AND "Ultima" get 316 results in Google News search. I added in something from Wired magazine about how the assassination of the character in Ultima Online, caused a protest, giving players an unprecedented ability to change and influence the game. Quite the historic event. Dream Focus 11:49, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

And how many of those are about the importance of Lord British as a character in the real world? Not a hell of a lot is there?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 13:39, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

The article mention involves how it got noticed by game developers, and influenced future development in these sorts of games. That's real world importance. Although you don't need to prove importance for an article, only coverage. Obviously, there is no real world importance in most popular movies and whatnot, but we have articles for them. Dream Focus 15:16, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

All musicians have articles for the names they go by, so why not other celebrities?

If a musician can have an article for the name they publish music by, such as Prince or Madonna, why not someone like Lord British, which gets mentioned in news articles quite often? That is the name Richard Garriott goes by a lot. All of his Ultima games have on the cover, "Lord British presents". Dream Focus 11:52, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Are you even attempting to make sense anymore? The only article about Prince is that one. Prince Rogers Nelson is just a redirect. Feel free to move Richard Garriott to this article. That would be funny to watch. TTN (talk) 14:34, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Bad Link

I have no experience with editing wikipedia, but link #10

"Top 5 Most Memorable Events in MMORPG History". Mmocrunch.com. 2008-08-26. Retrieved 2012-02-16.

Doesn't work anymore. 2001:983:BBCF:1:3906:D25A:76FA:150C (talk) 22:53, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 19 March 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. (non-admin closure)  — Amakuru (talk) 10:59, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

---

Lord British → Lord British (Ultima) – This is a bit of a tricky one, but here goes: I believe that one of the creators of the "Lord British" character, Richard Garriott, is more notably known as "Lord British" than even the character which he had a hand in creating. So, I believe that this article should be moved (disambiguator chosen per WP:NCVG) and then have Lord British become a redirect towards Richard Garriott. --Relisted.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:51, 30 March 2015 (UTC) Steel1943 (talk) 23:25, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

• Object to move. If you searched Wikipedia for "Lord British", you'd most likely want to see where that name came from, so this is the place it should be. Richard Garriott gets a lot more news these days for his space adventures, and the news media doesn't call him Lord British anymore. Dream Focus 00:31, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Weak support to move but suggest that Lord British be made a disambiguation page. A cursory search on "Lord British" seemed to indicate a number of references and i doubt, not that I think that it is necessarily that important, that any of them has clear primary. GregKaye 12:45, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

• Out of the 16 references, most come from reliable independent secondary sources. Why would we need a disamb for this? It'd just list Lord British's fictional character article and Richard Garriott. There is a redirect article for Lord British the spaceship from an obscure 1986 video game called Salamander_(video_game). I sincerely doubt anyone would be searching for it. Dream Focus 20:28, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment if this fictional character is moved, then a disambiguation page should replace it, with Garriot, the character, and the spaceship making three entries. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 21:47, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
• Weak oppose. It's a nickname, and furthermore Garriot is linked in the first sentence of the article, so someone who wanted to know about Garriot is a click away from him. A new disambig page would seem to be overkill. SnowFire (talk) 19:09, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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