Talk:Live at Birdland

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Requested move 05 December 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved as proposed. (I contested this move on WP:RMTR, but no longer contest the move per findings by myself and the nominator. Since no one else has yet participated in the discussion, this close is basically the equivalent of "withdrawn".) (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 19:27, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Live at Birdland (disambiguation) → Live at Birdland – Live at Birdland needs to be disambig, not redirect; can then change Live at Birdland (disambiguation) to redirect to Live at Birdland. The current redirect is to Coltrane Live at Birdland, which is not the correct title (should be Live at Birdland (John Coltrane album)), but that can be changed later. EddieHugh (talk) 17:54, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Steel1943 (talk) 18:36, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Moving to full discussion for the simple fact that all references and books I find through search engines may hint that the current target of Live at Birdland, Coltrane Live at Birdland, may potentially be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term "Live at Birdland". If that is the case, the disambiguation page would not be moved. Steel1943 (talk) 18:36, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I have since moved Coltrane Live at Birdland to Live at Birdland (John Coltrane album) as stated above. However, I then moved that to Live at Birdland (1964 John Coltrane album) since Live at Birdland (1962 John Coltrane album) exists. However, I left Live at Birdland targeting Live at Birdland (1964 John Coltrane album) to retain the current status quo. Steel1943 (talk) 19:03, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@EddieHugh: This move request has been moved to full discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 18:42, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Look beyond the first page of results that comes up in a search (and remember that search results are likely to be influenced by the current Wikipedia labels!). The Coltrane recording (one of 2 released) is not, as suggested/required by WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, "more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term". There's a good chance that people will be looking for an article, "Live at Birdland", that doesn't yet exist – maybe for recordings with that title by Holly Holfmann, or Enrico Pieranunzi, or Mary Lou Williams, or Steve Kuhn, or Scott Whitfield, etc., etc. It needs to be a disambig page, not a redirect to one of the Coltrane entries. EddieHugh (talk) 19:08, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@EddieHugh: My searches actually revealed that the subject at Live at Birdland (1962 John Coltrane album) has been re-released several times. I noticed at least a 1996 re-release and a re-release at some point in the 2000's. That alone may be enough to justify this move, especially since it is rather confusing that John Coltrane has released at least two different albums with the same name and different playlists. (The two current John Coltrane "Live at Birdland" albums with articles have different songs.) Steel1943 (talk) 19:14, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @EddieHugh: Amazing: After what you said and all the page moves I just performed, I no longer contest this move. If no one else chimes in here in a few, I'll go ahead and perform the move. Steel1943 (talk) 19:22, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

@Steel1943: Thanks. Edit conflict, so this a footnote:

I'll stand back and check later on what's happened. A note: jazz discographies usually go by date of recording, not release, so your move to Live at Birdland (1964 John Coltrane album) should really be Live at Birdland (1963 John Coltrane album), especially as the other one (an unofficial release) is Live at Birdland (1962 John Coltrane album). (I'll try to find some sources and better info for the 62 one when I come back.) EddieHugh (talk) 19:32, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@EddieHugh: My naming choices for those articles was per WP:ALBUMDAB, which recommends dating by the release year: "In the event a performer releases two or more albums of the same name, but in different years, the year of its release will be utilized..." Steel1943 (talk) 19:45, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't work well with jazz: people prefer to follow a musician's development over time, which means that the recording date is important (remember that a typical recording session was and is just 1 or 2 days for a studio jazz album), and labels habitually hang on to recording sessions and then release them later, after the person is on another label or has died. The 1962 one almost certainly wasn't released then, but putting (maybe) "1970" in the title would look very strange to jazz eyes, given that Coltrane died in 67, and not many would search for an album with a title dated after its performer's death. (And I'm not sure of the origin of WP:ALBUMDAB; the history suggests it was created a few months ago.) EddieHugh (talk) 20:50, 5 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]