Talk:List of wars involving Francia

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"Breton" war of Charles the Bald[edit]

Outside Wikipedia I can't find any mentions of a "Frankish–Breton War". Evidently there were several battles going on between Charles the Bald on the one hand and Nominoe/Erispoe on the other hand from the 840s to the 851 Battle of Jengland and Battle of Jengland#Treaty of Angers, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the war was "Breton", nor that it ended in 851, nor is it clear that it necessarily started with the 843 Battle of Blain. Those are inferences that may or may not be correct. They may also be related to the (aftermath of) the Carolingian wars of succession [de; fr; nl]. In particular, I see many connections with the battles Charles the Bald fought simultaneously in the 840s in Aquitaine against Pepin II of Aquitaine, said to be an ally of Nominoe in Battle of Toulouse (844): However, Pepin’s ally Nominoë, Duke of Brittany, refused to submit, and eventually defeated Charles in the Battle of Ballon on 22 November 845). Charles and Pepin II had already fought at the Battle of Fontenoy (841). These 840s battles in Aquitaine just seem a continuation of that:

  • Après la mort de son grand-père, il prend parti pour Lothaire Ier contre Charles le Chauve mais en 841, ils sont battus à la bataille de Fontenoy-en-Puisaye. En 842/843, il capture Toulouse et résiste à deux sièges de la ville par les armées de Charles le Chauve en 843 et 844[réf. obsolète] mais est trahi par Frédolon, comte de Toulouse et de Rouergue. Le 5 juin 845, il fait la paix avec Charles le Chauve lors d'une entrevue à Saint-Benoît-sur-Loire ; la plus grande partie de l'Aquitaine lui revient, tandis que le roi Charles reçoit le Poitou, la Saintonge et l'Angoumois. (...) Destitué par le concile de Soissons de 851, il est fait prisonnier en septembre 852 par le duc de Vasconie Sanche qui le livre à Charles II le Chauve. mentioned at fr:Pépin II d'Aquitaine.
  • Battle of Toulouse (844)
  • le siège de Toulouse (844), par Charles II le Chauve et défendue par Bernard de Septimanie mentioned at fr:Siège de Toulouse
  • le siège de Toulouse (849), par Charles II le Chauve et défendue par Frédelon qui trahit Pépin II d'Aquitaine et livre la ville mentioned at fr:Siège de Toulouse

And so on. There is also plenty of evidence of Lothair I supporting both the Breton dukes and Pepin II against Charles as part of (a) larger conflict(s). I suspect that the framing of the battles between Charles the Bald Nominoe/Erispoe as a "Frankish–Breton War" is driven by modern Breton nationalism. The pages Nominoe, fr:Nominoë, and especially fr:Bataille de Jengland (most of which was written by 66.131.70.70 with a single-minded interest in Breton history) are particularly extensive on French Wikipedia (though not on Breton Wikipedia). But Template:Campaignbox Franco-Breton wars and fr:Modèle:Guerre Franco-Bretonne I indicate we could just as well lump in several later battles up to 992. The adjective "Franco" rather than "Frankish" is suspect, and the addition of "I" in the French template also suggests the creator fr:Utilisateur:Speltdecca sought to connect them with some later "Franco-Breton" war (perhaps the French–Breton War?). In summary, I think this is all just a bunch of WP:OR/WP:SYNTH, implicitly for the purpose of WP:SOAPBOX. We need some actual WP:RS on how to name, frame, scope and periodise these battles. This self-invented framework of a "Frankish–Breton War" is un-encyclopedic. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:09, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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