Talk:List of parishes in New Brunswick

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Contribs by user Mrwalis[edit]

What Mrwalis may mean to say by "the parish concept is completely defunct" is that the APPLICATION of the concept, where parish wards feed a regional i.e. county municipality, was made defunct by the abolishment of county councils during the louis robichaud equal opportunity suite of legislative changes. More specifically it was the Ed Byrne commission report that undertook to revamp local government and taxation.

One may argue that having kept the parish boundaries largely preserved the parishes and counties frozen in time to this day despite the intent to abolish the system all together.Placeographer77 (talk) 16:52, 11 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why list if completely defunct as a local governance unit?[edit]

It is quite evident that civil parishes in NB have, to a greater or lesser degree, remained as an organizational unit [edit: a subdivision]. Their name and role have changed as a result of local government reorganizing, however, they are in essence contained in the new organizing structure. I fail to see the source of the apparent struggle requiring stressing of the complete disappearance of the parish as an entity as apposed to allowing for an explanation as to why we would currently have need for the list of parishes and their continued use as census subdivisions. Also reference to the struggle to clarify the confusion between LSDs and parishes is completely unnecessary. Both of these contribute to an article which is confusing and UN-encyclopedic.

There may be a need for an entry that sets the stage for the list. We know where parishes came from and we know where they went: "The counties were; however, divided into parishes, districts having a certain amount of local autonomy and some limited powers of administration, which have been recognized in subsequent municipal legislation." http://www65.statcan.gc.ca/acyb07/acyb07_2015b-eng.htm

I'm interested in the awkwardness with which we handle local government in NB, especially discussions of regional government. Coming to agreement and forming quality entries will be well worth the while. Placeographer77 (talk) 16:39, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the article needs improvement; I'll have to do a proper rewrite of the intro sometime when I have time and the comfort of using my own laptop.

I think whoever wrote the StatsCan description has confused New Brunswick's parishes with Ontario's townships, which had a lot more power. The powers of our parishes were far more limited and by the time of their abolition were virtually nonexistent. The most accurate description might be that they exist as a geographical entity used for statistical purposes. I do think we should leave reference to Mrwalis's views out of the article itself as they do not appear on the Talk page. G. Timothy Walton (talk) 19:26, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

For clarity, I suggest we remove all text after "This is a list of civil parishes in the Canadian province of New Brunswick." to a new entry that will complement the list. That is, an article titled, "Civil parishes of NB", can introduce and develop the former and current signifigance of the NB civil parish. This will be a an important improvement. At this point, it is no one particular person's undertaking. I appreciate your attention to the subject. Thanks! Placeographer77 (talk) 16:36, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The opening sentence was contrary to WP:LEADSENTENCE. Also, if the province doesn't explicitly refer to these entities as "civil parishes", I don't think we should be outright conferring that title in this article. Rather, we should use the proper wikilink (which I think I just added) and let that linked article do the talking if our readers feel so inclined to learn more. The second and third paragraphs are rather ugly. I look forward to GTW's rewrite. I lean on you two as I'm not familiar with parishes and LSDs in the NB context or any context, but can chime in with my familiarity with StatCan's level of geographies (CSDs and DPLs) as necessary if such content from the lead is retained/salvaged in some way. Cheers, Hwy43 (talk) 08:15, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I agree, that is the proper link. Up until this week, parish had been linked to ecclesiastical parishes article. I see there is now a entry made at Parish_(administrative_division) for New Brunswick linking to this list. Placeographer77 (talk) 22:26, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've rewritten the opening paragraphs today, though they will need citations. As to using civil parish, it is not the legal term. In the nineteenth century the Legislature did not distinguish between civil parishes and Anglican parishes when writing new Acts; there were several Acts that erected new ecclesiastical parishes in Saint John that were worded exactly as if they were erecting new civil parishes. There also seems to be a strong correlation between Roman Catholic parishes and civil parishes erected in Acadian areas beginning near the turn of the twentieth century. G. Timothy Walton (talk) 16:34, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we need the legal term. Somewhere we need the descriptive term. The distinction was made when parishes where given a self administration function instead of an Anglican or Catholic function, even if in some cases there was overlap as you offer. YOu say it is possible to discern the legislation as civil or ecclesiastical?

That former link should not be restored. User:Hwy43 has installed a correct link. It is interesting looking at the other commonwealth entries found there.

I understand this article is not a place to discuss former administrative units. A mechanism is needed to do so, but at and entry such as former administrative units in New Brunswick or political subdivisions of NB. Placeographer77 (talk) 22:26, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The only way it is possible to discern the civil and Anglican parishes in legislation is to be familiar with the subject. It's been a long time since I copied all the legislation by hand but I can tell them apart because I studied the subject extensively. Just as I apparently know more about local service districts than some cited sources by having read all the appropriate Regulations; I have a copy of the Byrne Commission report at home so I know that the LSD article needs correction of the Hatfield-sourced information.

You seem to be under the impression that the civil parishes were government units with significant powers; they mostly served to provide representatives to the county councils. G. Timothy Walton (talk) 16:30, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Improvements from a more complete understanding of what were parishes[edit]

Alot about the origins of the civil parish in NB can be learned from reading the entry at Civil parishes of England, since Dominion of Canada developments would parallel those in the mother country.

I would like to see accurate pictures of the NB local government story to inform ourconversations. Placeographer77 (talk) 14:10, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]