Talk:List of first ladies of the United States

Clinton Dates?

According to the article, both Bill Clinton's wife and daughter were first ladies for his entire term. Is this correct? 206.53.196.113 (talk) 21:42, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Chelsea Clinton stood in for her mother occassionally when Mrs. Clinton could not attend something. As far as I know that happened for his entire term, just as Tricia Nixon stood in for Mrs. Pat Nixon for some Nixon administration events. Happyme22 (talk) 22:08, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I missed the part at the top of that table that said the people in that table acted as first ladies when the first lady couldn't. 206.53.197.24 (talk) 19:47, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Michelle Obama

User:Sugarcubez has suggested in this edit that there are personal motives behind Michelle Obama not being included on this list, namely that I don't like her. That quite an accusation to make, Sugercubez, when I've never expressed my opinion of Mrs. Obama on Wikipedia. In fact, the reason why I oppose Obama being included is simply because she is not first lady!! The introduction, literally the second sentence, in the article reads: "The first list includes only those persons who are recognized by the National First Ladies Library as a First Lady of the United States." Michelle Obama is not first lady, therefore she cannot possibly have been recognized by the NFLL as being one. Your motive behind favoring inclusion seems to be that it is "rude" to not include her name. That is not an encyclopedic reason rather it is your personal opinion and that holds no weight here. Laura Bush is still the first lady and will be until January 20, 2009. On that date at 12:00 noon EST, we can add Mrs. Obama to this list. --Happyme22 (talk) 18:06, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Sugarcubez made rude and unfounded comments, but Michelle Obama should be listed here. This same edit war was at List of Presidents of the United States whether to list Barack Obama, and the article is now fully protected. Consensus has been reached at Talk:List of Presidents of the United States to list Obama as the President-Elect separate from the main list. There is a clear distinction that Obama is not president yet, but he will be. This consensus has been applied with the same style to List of Vice Presidents of the United States. This article must be consistent with the others, and I believe that not listing Michelle Obama is a serious omission; the casual reader wants to see her listed, even if she is not First Lady yet. Reywas92^Talk 21:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Technically, you can't know that someone will be First Lady until she is. There was at least one case when a President-elect's wife died between the election and the inauguration so she didn't become First Lady.47.139.46.80 (talk) 19:33, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Martha Jefferson

Why aren't Martha Jefferson Randolph, Emily Donelson, Sarah Yorke Jackson, Angelica Singleton Van Buren, Jane Irwin Harrison, Priscilla Cooper Tyler, Harriet Lane, Mary Arthur McElroy, Rose Cleveland, Mary Harrison McKee listed with the others? The non-spouses should get their own subsection. Dimadick (talk) 06:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I presume that is because the list that was added was completely uncited. Get some citations and then come on back. Happyme22 (talk) 23:32, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Also, Letitia "Letty" Semple ... From http://www.firstladies.org/biographies/firstladies.aspx?biography=10:

The spring 1844 social season at the White House was presided over by President Tyler's daughter Letitia "Letty" Semple, born on 11 May, 1821. Although Letty Semple and her sister Lizzie Tyler (previous to her February 1842 wedding), and on at least once occasion their eldest sister Mary Tyler Jones were on hand at White House social events to welcome guests, the President had specifically designated his daughter-in-law Priscilla Tyler as his official hostess. When she moved to Philadelphia, the social responsibilities briefly fell to Letty Semple. ... The three months that Letty Semple presided as the sole hostess of the White House (March to June 1844) for her widowed father was unremarkable. She was shocked and hurt when, in June 1844, her father remarried and she was no longer the hostess of the White House, replaced by a woman her own age. While the other Tyler children soon took to their new stepmother, Julia Gardiner Tyler, Letty Semple never did. Refusing to show her the most basic civility, Letty Semple forever resented her stepmother and there would be no reconciliation.

Jeff in CA (talk) 06:28, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

And Mary Elizabeth Bliss ... From http://www.firstladies.org/biographies/firstladies.aspx?biography=13:

In many respects, it was Peggy Taylor's daughter, Mary Elizabeth "Betty" Taylor Bliss Dandridge (1824-1909) who assumed responsibility for the family's primary interaction with the general public. ... The President's daughter Betty Bliss was the public hostess of the Administration. ... At the Inaugural Ball, following the Russian Minister's wife in red silk and diamonds, "Miss Betty" appeared in a simple white dress with a white flower in her hair and her naturalness became her trademark. She presided over all public functions in the White House as the official hostess of the Taylor Administration. The public face of the Taylor women duo, Betty Bliss even had a popular dance song written in her honor. By the time the fall 1849 social season began, however, there was a marked difference in the style of the family. ... The change was visibly apparent at the March 4, 1850 White House reception when Betty Bliss led the conversations with men, balancing humor with sensibility and her poise was highly praised in the next day's newspapers.

Jeff in CA (talk) 07:20, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Mustn't leave out Martha Johnson Patterson ... http://www.firstladies.org/biographies/firstladies.aspx?biography=18:

Martha Patterson assumed great responsibility for the Johnson Administration White House, playing several different roles. Foremost was that of the primary hostess who welcomed the general public and invited guests, aided by her sister Mary Stover. ... As First Lady, she used considerable skill in assuming the personal management of an April 1866 $30,000 congressional redecorating appropriation. Rather than expend it on the private quarters and executive offices alone, she apportioned it with tremendous care and consciousness so that the overall appearance of the public rooms was uplifted. ...

Martha Patterson prided herself on having her own recipe for teacakes served to guests. She also focused on initiating elegant details at state dinners over which she presided with her father, despite her mother’s frequent but brief appearances at these public entertainments. Described as “generous and princely,” she had bouquets placed at each setting alongside what a contemporary description termed “green-gold” china. Limiting the number of dinner guests to forty, she had the main table decorated with large and long gold centerpieces from France, purchased under Monroe’s Administration. Hosting these in the State Dining Room, which had been closed for use by Mary Lincoln in the previous Administration, she also had the room photographed for the first time, when it was fully prepared for a formal dinner.

While emphasis has been placed on Martha Patterson’s importance in her welcoming the general public at receptions and distinguished guests at state dinners, from her perspective the importance of her role was derived from the comfort it provided her father as President, whether seated directly across the table from him or standing alongside him. The value of her presence, said one observer was the “relieving him of much of the necessity of entertaining” by extensive personal interactions. ... In September of 1867, Martha Patterson had also accompanied her father on his prenvjefbvjb vujb db fdkb dhy bbhv qerdb c whecdbchdfb dusidential tour of northern and western states, the first time a woman of a presidential family had done so since Priscilla Tyler joined her father-in-law on his 1840s tour.

Jeff in CA (talk) 07:53, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Abigail Kent Means ... http://www.firstladies.org/biographies/firstladies.aspx?biography=15:

Jane Pierce survived all 3 of her sons. Because of the tragic death of 12-year-old Benjamin, she did not attend her husband’s inauguration. She did not enter the White House until later in March 1853. She did not receive publicly at the White House until January 1855, asking her uncle Robert Mean’s widow, Abigail Kent Means, to perform the official duties of the First Lady. Since Mrs. Means had no children, she would find it easier to spend long periods of time with Jane, whom she loved like a sister.

In the 20th century, Margaret Woodrow Wilson and Helen Bones between the death of Ellen Wilson and remarriage of President Wilson.

Jeff in CA (talk) 08:59, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

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this is not....

This is not a list of first ladies, it is a list of wives. It is fine to have a list of wives, but call it that. And here we should have only first ladies, which would include women chosen to serve in the role when a spouse was not available. Kingturtle (talk) 16:50, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

As the article says, According to the White House and the National First Ladies' Library, there have been forty-five First Ladies and forty-six First Ladyships. These other women chosen to serve in the role cannot be verified by reliably sources, while the White House and First Ladies' library, are RSes. Adding anyone else is likely to be WP:OR Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 16:59, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Maybe there could be a 2nd chart of "Mistresses of the White House." It is a shame for these women to be footnotes. Kingturtle (talk) 17:12, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

The confusion lies in that Mary Arthur McElroy is included on the Template:US First Ladies. Kingturtle (talk) 17:51, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

The Smithsonian is a Reliable Source. Visit the Museum of American History in Washington and view the First Ladies display. The Smithsonian includes many of these other First Ladies who have been left off this list. Why don't we go with the professional historians at the Smithsonian? Jeff in CA (talk) 04:03, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Which Hillary portrait to use?

I've reverted the use of her Secretary of State portrait: File:Secretary Clinton 8x10 2400 1.jpg, since that comes well after her time as First Lady. Unfortunately, her official Simmie Knox First Lady portrait image was deleted some time ago, on grounds of not public domain, no fair use. That leaves either her official portrait as Senator, or one done in 1992, just before she became First Lady. I've chosen the 1992 one, since it's closer to the 'look' that she had during much of her time in that position. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:55, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the 1992 picture, because the picture shows her time as First Lady. miranda 19:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Portraits not Photographs

Anyone agree or disagree? I think that instead of photos, we have the official portraits (apart from Michelle Obama who hasn't got one!)

-Willwal Sunday 2nd Feb @ 7:25am —Preceding undated comment was added at 07:25, 2 February 2009 (UTC).

She has one now. miranda 19:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Correction of run-on.

Until Harriet Lane, the title "First Lady" was not used officially; And was not used at all before Dolley Madison, and even in her case it was only used in her eulogy. - someone would like to volunteer? miranda 19:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Martha Washington, and Anna Harrison never entered the White House.

George Washinngton was President before the White House was biult, and William Henry Harrison died before Anna Harrison could get to the White House. This needs to be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Perryparkhistory (talk • contribs) 12:52, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

List of First Ladies of the United States by longevity added to this article

I added the information from the above article into this one according to the result of a debate on that article. Since nothing had happened in half a year I thought it was about time to take action. I'm not sure, of course, if what I did was exactly what was intended but it certainly was a start. ;) --Krawunsel (talk) 22:55, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the information from the article for now. This is a WP:Featured list, and we must take precautions not to add stuff that would cause it to violate the WP:Featured list criteria. List of First Ladies of the United States by longevity is completely unsourced, and despite a notice at the top saying that AFD consensus was to merge it with this one, I don't actually see any sign of such at the AFD -- rather, it was a suggestion by one person that was not agreed upon by anyone else who took part in the discussion.

Most of the comments at the AFD was that the information was not encyclopedic, and to simply copy-pasta the tables doesn't make it any more encyclopedic, it just makes this article less encyclopedic. However, there may be valid reasons for adding birth date, death date, and age-at-entering-White House columns based on the AFD comments, but that should be discussed here, not on the talk page or AFD discussion of a different article. Matthewedwards :  Chat  03:11, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me, there was a decision to do just what I did, so there's no sense in you removing the information again, even if you pelt me with ever so much stuff why it "shouldn't be done". Maybe you should first have read the debate I referred to. Anyway, the information is not "unsourced" but you can derive all of it from the respective articles on the Presidential spouses - if you don't find the task too tedious. And isn't blanking half a page usually referred to as vandalism? --Krawunsel (talk) 14:35, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I did read the debate you referred to. I didn't read a suggestion from anybody in the entire debate about merging the pages. The closest thing to that was the closing admin, User:Stifle, referring to User:Fiftytwo thirty about the "main list". Whether he meant this page or not is unclear. There is certainly no clear decision, and no consensus. Even if Stifle did mean merge, especially 10 months later, it doesn't mean that decision is set in stone.

I suggest you read Wikipedia:Verifiability thoroughly. It describes Wikipedia's Policy of referencing and citations. You may find it enlightening. With regards to your outrageous claim that the originating page isn't unsourced, then please show me the references. You can't. There aren't any. Yes, I find the task of visiting 49 other articles to verify the information here to be too tedious, and WP:CIRCULAR says I don't have to. It appears that you find it tedious too, though, for WP:PROVEIT says that the burden for adding references to any information added to an article lies with the person who added it, and if that isn't done it can be removed at any time. You shouldn't just dump loads of junk on articles and expect others to chase around after you cleaning up your mess. Currently the article is indeed "unsourced".

Wikipedia:Vandalism. That's another article you should read. The first line reads "Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia." So in answer to your question, no, removing unsourced material is not considered "vandalism" and you shouldn't toss accusations of it around, as that is a violation of our Wikipedia:Civility policy.

Finally, please follow the rules of Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. You boldly added the info. I reverted and began a discussion. Until that is resolved, please don't re-add it a third time. If necessary, we can ask for a Third opinion or open a RfC. Matthewedwards :  Chat  20:50, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Just to note, I did previously offer a compromise of adding date of birth and death columns to the table here, although I don't see why it's really necessary; as has been said at the AfD, their longevity isn't really that important. Matthewedwards :  Chat  21:19, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Independent view: if absolutely necessary, add birth and death dates. However, the most significant dates are (a) when they became first lady and (b) when the stopped being first lady. Of course, if first ladies have died in "office" it's significant, but the whole premise of a list of people married to the US President by longevity is flawed, no-one cares who lived the longest, they care who served the longest, who served with whom, and other more notable details. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:33, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Longevity of the First Lady is trivia IMO.—Chris!_c/t 21:23, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Van Buren & Arthur

Van Buren's wife & Arthur's wife died before their husbands became President. Why are they listed? GoodDay (talk) 21:42, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

I came here to ask the same question. It doesn't make sense. In the First Ladies coin issue from the U.S. Mint, they aren't included. --Coemgenus (talk) 22:33, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

I've removed Martha Jefferson, Rachel Jackson, Hannah Van Buren & Ellen Arthur from the list. They never were US First Ladies. GoodDay (talk) 03:41, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

That's not how the White House or the National First Ladies' Library see it. I believe they should be added back. Mikehillman (talk) 17:54, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

They have to be removed since they were not alive when their husbands entered the presidency. Hence, they couldn't possible serve as "First Ladies". Str1977 ^(talk) 11:47, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Helen Bones

Woodrow Wilson's cousin, Helen Bones, served as the First Lady during the period between the death of his first wife and his marriage to his second wife. Anyone know why she isn't included on the list? MK2 23 August 2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.66.233.209 (talk) 19:13, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Sort appears broken

For each column except the first one. — MrDolomite • Talk 11:59, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The sort feature was just added by 108.41.131.117 (talk · contribs) on December 7 — and it never worked. It will take somebody who knows more about wikitables than I do to sort it out or get rid of it.  Glenfarclas  (talk) 23:45, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Sort works now. —Mikehillman (talk) 19:46, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Helen Herron Taft — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.210.153.238 (talk) 21:41, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Comments from WP:TFL review

Michelle Obama

The First Ladies of the United States are the women who have served as the hostess of the White House. The position is traditionally filled by the wife of the president of the United States, but, on occasion, the title has been applied to women who were not presidents’ wives, such as when the president was a bachelor or widower. She has her own staff, including the White House Social Secretary, the Chief of Staff, the Press Secretary, the Chief Floral Designer, and the Executive Chef. The Office of the First Lady is also in charge of all social and ceremonial events of the White House, and is a branch of the Executive Office of the President. Following Barack Obama's inauguration on January 20, 2009, his wife, Michelle Obama (pictured), became the forty-sixth official First Lady, succeeding Laura Bush, wife of former President George W. Bush. The first First Lady of the US was Martha Washington, married to George Washington. (Full list...)

Neelix (talk) 20:44, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Comment - major issue with sorting: DOB column not sorting at all. Date of marriage sorting all over the place. I wonder if that triple colspan for "First Lady" is messing it all up? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:56, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

It's quite likely that that's the case. The tables were not sortable when it was promoted; in fact, sorting was only introduced in December 2011, almost 3 years after it was promoted. Matthewedwards :  Chat  02:55, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

I've fixed the sorting. The triple colspan was a problem, but it was far from the only problem. Mikehillman (talk) 19:51, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Comment

• As the FLC nominator I'm not sure how proud of this page I still am at this point. There are definitely things I don't like about it now. The Lede sets out the scope of the article well: The First Ladies when they were First Ladies. Not before, not after, just during. Now, things that shouldn't have been added have been, and things that have been removed shouldn't have been. Not without discussion, at least.:

1. The images originally used were nearly all taken from either the White House or National First Ladies' Library, or were official portraits, and had all been checked. The majority have now been replaced, with no independent image check conducted.
2. The original columns were the #, photo and First Lady's name; date of marriage; President; Date of White House entry; and date they left. They've been renamed and added to since then, in part because of this AFD and this talk page discussion.

1. The date of entry/left White House columns were renamed to "Tenure began/ended" because not all were actually in the White House. That's fine.
2. Adding "husband" in parentheses to the "President" column is factually incorrect as many were not married to the President.
3. Their DOB is not important within the scope of this article. Their DOB had nothing to do with them becoming First Ladies and even if sortability worked, it wouldn't tell us how old they were when they became the First Lady. That is more relevant.
4. Their length of retirement is not important and not within the scope of the article. They were granted this position because of their husband/brother/whatever being voted into a specific position, not because of anything related specifically to them. Their tenure ended only because their husbands job ended, and the end of their retirement is based on what? The date they died, or the date they found another job? We don't know.
5. Date of Death. Only 3 or 4 died while they were still First Lady. They have been pointed out specifically in footnotes. What purpose does the DOD column serve for the 40 other women?

1. For heavens' sake, even the List of Presidents doesn't have a DOB, length of retirement or DOD.
2. Sortability is messed up on a number of columns that are date dependent.

I oppose this being on the Main Page in this state, and if the R in FLRC stood for "Review" rather than "Removal", I would have nominated this page there some time ago. These additions really needed discussing. Matthewedwards :  Chat  02:55, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Sortability is fixed, and it now contains the same columns as List of Presidents of the United States by age, plus "Date of marriage". Mikehillman (talk) 19:51, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Elizabeth Monroe

The link to her page is going to Andrew Johnson's wife. I would fix it, but I have no idea how to do this. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.231.34 (talk) 03:24, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Question

In the event of a woman becoming President of the United States, what would happen to this article? Would it need to be renamed to include the first First Gentleman? V_oBEDD 12:44, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Before the 2016 election, the Clintons said that instead of former President Bill Clinton serving in the traditional "first lady" role, they would hire a social secretary to do it professionally for them. I don't know whether she would have been given the title, but I don't think so.47.139.46.80 (talk) 19:39, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Of course, if a lesbian becomes President, then her wife could be called First Lady. And if a man married to a man becomes President, then the same question of how to refer to a President's husband applies as to a female President's husband. So the question is valid, but in light of gay marriage being legal in the U.S., it should say "In the event of a person with a husband becoming President...", because it is the gender of the President's spouse that matters, not the President's own gender. 47.139.46.80 (talk) 19:49, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Numbering scheme

This article is messed up. Not only are people who've never been First Lady, being included. But, they're also being numbered. GoodDay (talk) 01:13, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

See http://americanhistory.si.edu/first-ladies/timeline Jeff in CA (talk) 06:27, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Date formats in table

Can anyone tell me why all marriage dates are in dmy format, wheras all other dates are in (correct, as this is Americans) mdy format? --Marbe166 (talk) 21:45, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Unlogical?

In the article First Lady of the United States has been written:

The First Lady of the United States is an unofficial title and position traditionally held by the wife of the President of the United States, concurrent with the president's term of office.

However, in the article List of First Ladies of the United States says:

This list included all persons who served as First Ladies, regardless of whether they were married to the incumbent President or not...

Well, how it is really with:

  3: Martha Wayles Skelton (or should be as Martha Jefferson?) Died nearly nineteen years prior to his presidency → Thomas Jefferson

  7: Rachel Donelson (or should be as Rachel Jackson?) Died after election, prior to husband's inauguration → Andrew Jackson

  8: Hannah Hoes (or should be as Hannah van Buren?) Died eighteen years prior to his presidency → Martin Van Buren

21: Ellen Lewis Herndon (or should be as Ellen Arthur?) Died nineteen months prior to his presidency → Chester A. Arthur

Finally, how about Jane Wyman, if "regardless of whether they were married to the incumbent President or not"? She was the first wife of Ronald Reagan 1940-1949.

--85.76.78.121 (talk) 16:53, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

This is a list of women who have served as first lady. It is not a list of all women who have been married, at some point, to a US President. None of the ladies mentioned served as first lady, and should thus be removed, or in case of Wyman, not included. --Marbe166 (talk) 20:14, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

However, Martha Wayles Skelton died nearly nineteen years prior to Thomas Jefferson's presidency, Rachel Donelson died after election, prior to Andrew Jackson's inauguration, Hannah Hoes died eighteen years prior to Martin Van Buren's presidency and Ellen Lewis Herndon died nineteen months prior to Chester A. Arthur's presidency - when they really served as first lady? --85.76.78.121 (talk) 20:22, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

They didn't, and should therefore be removed from the list, in my opinion. --Marbe166 (talk) 20:25, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Improvements done. --85.76.78.121 (talk) 22:52, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Please recognize that Wikipedia depends on reliable sources, not suppositions or personal opinions of Wikipedia editors. This article is a featured list. The explanation of the contents of this list are fully explained in the opening paragraphs. For further information, see The First Ladies. I have reverted your edit—as did User:Cluebot NG, the automated routine that identifies edits that are very likely to be nconstructive. I am sure that your edit was made in good faith, and that you put in a lot of time to make the changes. I hope you will understand why the edit was reverted, and will continue to edit at Wikipedia. Please do not reinstate your edit here. You might consider improving First Lady of the United States (a start-class article) to conform to reliable sources such as the one I mentioned. — Neonorange (talk) 11:29, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

In this case WP:IAR should apply, as having the aforementioned in the list is simply confusing/misleading. GoodDay (talk) 03:59, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Letitia Christian

The dates for Letitia Christian birth and marriage to Tyler are the same, so guessing some edit gone bad. Guess I could look up real info somewhere and learn how to do edit. Maybe next time or if not fixed in a day or two. ```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grantjr67 (talk • contribs) 22:00, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks. --Marbe166 (talk) 17:44, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

First Gentleman

Will there be a separate page for First Gentlemen or will this current page become a First Spouses page? Worth discussing, as Clinton victory looks more and more likely.

Indeed, my vote would go to changing this to a First Spouses page, then. --Marbe166 (talk) 17:41, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

First spouses wouldn't be accurate, because they weren't all spouses.

Before the 2016 election, the Clintons said that instead of former President Bill Clinton serving in the traditional "first lady" role, they would hire a social secretary to do it professionally for them. I don't know whether she would have been given the title, but I don't think so.47.139.46.80 (talk) 19:42, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Separation of the tables

I find this absolutely unnecessary, Marbe166. It complicates the table, and your justification that it being "aligned with the layout in the List of Presidents of the United States article" is dubious at best. There is a position known as President-elect of the United States (as well as Vice President-elect of the United States); there is no such position as Incoming First Lady of the United States or First Lady-designate of the United States. I strongly believe that Therequiembellishere's simplification of the table is superior. Fact of the matter: she's going to be the next First Lady by virtue of her being married to the incoming POTUS. Likewise I would note that the separation of the presidents and the president-elect was only supposed to be for both that list and the List of Vice Presidents of the United States only. If anything, your layout should be undone and discussed rather than the alternative being so (an alternative that happens to be supported by more than just 1 editor).--Nevé–selbert 21:25, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Fact of the matter is that she is designated to be the first lady, she isn't the first lady yet (which of course you know), there are events that could happen that would prevent her from becoming first lady, the two most plausible ones being the deaths of either her or Donald Trump (neither of which is likely to happen, though). Therefore, to avoid confusion I find it better to have her clearly separated from the main list until the inaguration. The abovementioned simplification by Therequiembellishere doesn't fulfil the criteria for being clear enough. --Marbe166 (talk) 21:45, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Just as a compromise, would you be open to a new section containing the forthcoming first lady? Similar to this layout, that is.--Nevé–selbert 22:12, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that's fine. --Marbe166 (talk) 23:23, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Tyler & Wilson

Shouldn't Priscilla Cooper Tyler and Margaret Woodrow Wilson be listed on this article like the other de facto First Ladies? Keivan.f^Talk 08:19, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Wife/partner/spouse

Justfortheladyfest, this issue seems to be a hot one, so let's discuss rather than reverting and re-reverting.

You quoted an essay when the change was first made, Wikipedia:Writing about women#Defining women by their relationships; bear in mind this is an essay, and not Wikipedia policy. Quite besides that, you mentioned in your edit summary that "'married to' expresses a status, while 'wife of' expresses an unnecessary sense of possession". It is not mentioned in that essay that 'wife' is somehow a harsher term than 'partner' or 'spouse', and your claim that it expresses a sense of possession sounds like original research.

Whether or not this is the case, it is important that the word 'wife' is used when describing the role of First Lady in the lead section, as this is exactly what it is (accepted title held by the wife of the President of the United States – First Lady of the United States). I don't mind so much changing 'wife of' to 'married to' in the later sections, but this creates sentences that do not make sense. For example, "Donald Trump's spouse, Melania Trump, became the 47th official First Lady, succeeding Michelle Obama, married to former President Barack Obama."

I will not revert your entire edit, but do you mind if I change the terms to address the issues mentioned above? Thanks — Quasar G ^{t - c} 10:00, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

The first lady isn't the wife of the president by definition. The title can be held by someone else (and has been so) if the president doesn't have a wife. So you're argument is quite weak. --Marbe166 (talk) 10:23, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

@Marbe166: as mentioned at First Lady of the United States, the First Lady is the informal but accepted title held by the wife of the president. This statement is the result of consensus, and it would make sense to repeat it in this article.

As it stands, the definition here is incorrect. The word 'partner' is used, and never has the First Lady been the unmarried partner of a President. Quasar G ^{t - c} 10:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

That statement would need the word 'generally' to be correct. The First Lady is generally the wife of the President, but when there is no wife the duties are fulfilled by someone else - hence the title is not exclusively reserved for the wife of the President. I agree that using 'partner' is not correct, either. --Marbe166 (talk) 11:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

@Marbe166: 'traditionally' is used at the moment, and this effectively conveys the same meaning as 'generally'. I have changed 'partner' to 'wife'; make any amendments you feel are necessary.

What's your opinion on 'wife of' being changed to 'married to', and 'wife' being changed to 'spouse' in this edit? Quasar G ^{t - c} 11:43, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Ah, yes, 'traditionally' is there, so then it's fine. I can agree on changing 'wife of' to 'married to', that does imply less "possession" as argued by the original editor. I don't agree on changing 'wife' to 'spouse' as that just makes it less precise. --Marbe166 (talk) 11:52, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Regarding the 'original research', my bad for taking the wrong paragraph of the article writing about women. I actually meant to link to Writing about women (Marriage) When discussing a married woman, consider writing "A is married to B," instead of casting the male as possessor: "A is the wife of B." I know this is an essay, but it is a good start for tackling the Gender gap at Wikipedia the platform is trying to address. Honestly, I fail to see the difference in meaning that the changes proposed are causing and the insistence to cling to the expression wife of. As for spouse, it is simply a neutral term, so I don't feel it's less precise. Justfortheladyfest (talk) 21:23, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

@Justfortheladyfest: 'spouse' is slightly less precise, and is 'spouse' really any better than 'wife'? Anyway I'm going to change back any instances where your changes altered the meaning of a sentence, do revert if you feel it's necessary. Quasar G ^{t - c} 21:35, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

'Spouse' is marginally better than 'wife' because any references to wife will be inaccurate if we ever have a President with a husband.47.139.46.80 (talk) 19:45, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

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Presidents who remarried after their presidencies

I know that Benjamin Harrison remarried after his presidency (and thus his second wife was not a First Lady of the United States). Were there any other presidents who also remarried after their presidencies ended? --Metropolitan90 (talk) 17:11, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:List of Vice Presidents of the United States which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 23:03, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Is it suitable to use their maiden names as opposed to the names they used in office?

I wonder if it's really appropriate to identify each First Lady by her birth name, as opposed to the name they used while serving as First Lady. Almost all of them used the President's last name, not their birth names.(For instance, while serving as First Lady, Barack Obama's wife identified as Michelle Obama, not Michelle LaVaughn Robinson). Additionally, some, like Melania Trump, have changed the spelling of their first names, and yet this list uses the birth spelling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8C:C102:DD00:E112:74E8:16B3:619C (talk) 22:16, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I was wondering the same thing. These maiden names are neither the common name nor the legal name at the time. Str1977 ^(talk) 23:24, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

PS. And before anyone uses the fact that this a "featured list" as an argument: when this list was promoted, it used the standard "married" names: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_first_ladies_of_the_United_States&oldid=266413951 changing edit Str1977 ^(talk) 23:44, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Additional surnames on remarriage

On the same note, why are subsequent surnames included for first ladies who remarried after having been married to the president? (Example, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis) I think we should be consistent and only use the surnames that the first ladies had when they were first ladies. --Marbe166 (talk) 18:53, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

That would be me. It is consistent in that, as far as I know, Cleveland and Kennedy are the only two who remarried after being First Lady. I guess I'm OK with consensus going either way. Also note that several First Ladies were pre-married to other men before the president.

But while we're at it, we should nail down a consistent set of criteria for names:

• Nickname – yes?
• Middle name - yes?
• Birth surname – no?
• Premarriage surname – yes?
• Married (presidential) surname – yes
• Remarriage surname – ? JustinTime55 (talk) 19:21, 10 February 2021 (UTC) JustinTime55 (talk) 19:26, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

It seems to me that the middle names are even less well-known than the maiden names, and so also should be deleted. JustinTime55 (talk) 19:33, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Fully agree on the need for consistency. However, it is not as easy as it may seem in all cases. For consistency, I think that surnames should be the surname she had when in the White House. Pre- and post-presidential marriage surnames should be omitted. When it comes to first names, middle names and nicknames, it is more tricky. There I would propose to use the names of the individual articles, to the best possible extent (i.e. unless they contain pre- or post-presidential surnames). Examples of that policy would then be Helen Taft, Bess Truman, Jacqueline Kennedy, Lady Bird Johnson and Pat Nixon. What do you think? --Marbe166 (talk) 23:11, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree in principle about keeping it to the White House, but I don't think looking to the article names makes it any less tricky; those aren't necessarily consistent either. I think we should keep all first names and nicknames, and delete the middle names. JustinTime55 (talk) 00:45, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

So this is where we are now:

• First name – yes
• Nickname – yes
• Middle name - no
• Birth surname – no
• Premarriage surname – no
• Married (presidential) surname – yes
• Remarriage surname – no JustinTime55 (talk) 15:27, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Use of middle names where they are most commonly known

@Marbe166: We forgot one important fact: several of the first ladies (Eleanor Roosevelt and Rosalynn Carter, not Anna and Eleanor) were commonly known by their middle names, not their first names. (Apparently this was also true of "Priscilla" Tyler, the president's daughter-in law who was an established proffessional actress.) I think we should make an exception to our rule to accommodate this, in the spirit of WP:COMMONNAME. JustinTime55 (talk) 21:59, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

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Dolley Madison is misspelled.

Dolley Madison is misspelled 159.87.34.3 (talk) 23:02, 24 September 2021 (UTC)thank you

Fixed, thanks for spotting it. --Marbe166 (talk) 23:24, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Capitalization of the title

Shouldn't "First Ladies" be capitalized at least in the lemma as an official title as in the main article, or am I wrong? Tobiasi0 (talk) 14:55, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Mary McElroy tenure

The list has Mary McElroy serving as acting first lady for the entire duration of Chester A. Arthur's presidency. This isn't strictly accurate, as she wasn't invited to take the role until January 1883. It's further complicated in that she was only active during the winter months, spending the remainder of the year at her home in Albany. Should these vacancies be reflected in the list? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 08:14, 15 October 2022 (UTC)