Talk:List of Italian football champions

Milan

Article calls them Milan, AC Milan and Milan FC. Consistency needed, or historically valid anachronisms? --Dweller 16:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, okay, give me a chance! I'm going to copy edit the various anachronisms as soon as I've finished the history section! But thanks... no, really, thanks! The Rambling Man 16:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Spezia

Listed as 1944 winners with an unexplained asterisk in one list and skipped in the others. I assume it's unofficial, so remove? --Dweller 16:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Ahah... now then, the 1944 title is a bit special. I have in mind to work this into the article in a nice way. But well pointed out. It'll be dealt with. Perhaps I need a To-do list here...! The Rambling Man 22:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

1944 now referred to in the text... The Rambling Man 10:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Trophy

You really need an image of the scudetto trophy, don't you? --Dweller 10:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I've tried looking, nothing doing. However, compared with English football champions, another featured list, it doesn't appear mandatory. The Rambling Man 10:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Definitely not mandatory, but would be nice. Can I suggest a request for help at the Italian language Wikipedia? --Dweller 11:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I've placed a request on Requested Images, it's going to be tough I think. Hopefully the English page has set the precedent... The Rambling Man 11:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Article name

Is it worth moving this to List of... as the article really is listesque. The opening words of the lead could be less tortuous too! --Dweller 10:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, but then you'd need to move the other "X football champions" as well to keep consistency wouldn't you? I've only done this to keep consistency with current articles... The Rambling Man 10:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Urk. OK. The opening words are horrid... I'll see if I can make it any better. --Dweller 11:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, lead is poor, agreed. Pretty much based verbatim on Danish football champions. Tweak away. The Rambling Man 11:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Better? --Dweller 13:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Definitely... thanks! The Rambling Man 13:45, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Sicily

Sicily has never won an Italian championship. I'm a little surprised. I wonder how close Sicily has gotten. It also appears like Italy's eastern half is dominated by the western half. Ffda (talk) 18:28, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Error in redirect

I just noticed that the article "Scudetto" redirects here. What is stated in the article is partially true: the Scudetto is worn by EVERY team that wins their respective Italian championship (basketball, rugby union, and so on). Scudetto is not necessarily related to football in Italy. -- Sergio (aka The Blackcat) 18:22, 22 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blackcat (talk • contribs)

Errors

This article doesn't deserve to be included in the Featured Articles because contains some errors:

1. "Italian Football Championship" is invented. The name of the Top League was before 1929:
   1. Prima Categoria (First Category) (until to 1922 FIGC)
   2. Prima Divisione (First Division) (1922 CCI-1926)
   3. Divisione Nazionale (National Division) (1926-1929)
2. The 1910 Prima Categoria championship ended with a playoff only because Inter and Pro Vercelli placed both at the first place (so a playoff was needed).
3. The Viareggio Chart (Carta di Viareggio) was written in 1926, not in 1929!

I attempted to correct these errors and to expand the article, but probably I added too informations (especially about the 1908 and 1909 championships). However, NOW the 1908, 1909 and 1910 championships are referenced (I know, the links to La Stampa seems not working, but there is a trick in order to make them work (copy the url to the article, go to www.archiviolastampa.it, click on "Ricerche" (search) and paste the copied url)). Likely my english isn't perfect, and my writings could contain grammar/syntax issues. But these can be corrected, not reverted. Furthermore, the subdivision of the list into "Prima Categoria", "Prima Divisione", "Divisione Nazionale" and "Serie A" is more correct than the previous one ("Italian Football Championship" and "Serie A").--151.70.58.104 (talk) 17:15, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, it's not a featured article, it's a featured list. Secondly, your edits weren't "reverted", they were "undone" and you were asked to comment here which you've now done for the third time of asking, so that's good. Clearly, there are conflicts in sources. The information you have above is not the same that exists in the article. You need to be precise with what you're trying to fix and use correct references that we can all access. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:20, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

• Almanacco dello Sport 1914, page 329: "Il Campionato di 1.a Categoria" ("1.st Category Championship). Under this title the list of italian champions updated up to 1911-12.
• Annuario 1929, "Storia della FIGC (History of FIGC), pages 26-58, where the Top Division is called "Prima Categoria" (up to 1921-22), "Prima Divisione" (from 1922 to 1926) and "Divisione Nazionale" (from 1926 to 1929).
• Annuario 1929, Carta di Viareggio (1926), pages 58-67, where you can (if you can read italian) learn that Viareggio Chart refers actually to season 1926-27. "Viene conservata la Divisione Nazionale, ammettendo ad essa, oltre alle 16 squadre... della Lega Nord, tre squadre della Lega Sud... e una ventesima squadra scelta in un torneo ad eliminazione tra le otto squadre eliminate dalla Prima Divisione Lega Nord della stagione decorsa, e non comprese nella Divisione Nazionale... Le 20 squadre della Divisione Nazionale saranno divise in due gironi da dieci squadre ciascuno..." (Resuming: The Top League is therefore called Divisione Nazionale. 20 teams will be admitted: 16 from Northern League, 3 from Southern League and a 20th team, the winner of the Playoffs among the last 8 teams of Prima Divisione Lega Nord 1925-26. These 20 clubs will be divided in two groups of 10 teams each.) So the Viareggio Chart (1926) isn't connected to the birth of Serie A and Serie B (1929), being made 3 years before!
• RSSSF (1924) "1st Division North". RSSSF (1927): "Divisione Nazionale".
• Piramide.
• "Federal and italian Championships" (and the two titles won by Juventus in 1908 and 1909 but not recognized): Scoop del "Guerin Sportivo". " I 29 scudetti che i tifosi della Juve reclamano, quindi, probabilmente ci sono già, ci sono già nella storia e per noi sono quelli molto più datati del 1908 e del 1909, che vengono attribuiti entrambi alla Pro Vercelli, ma essendo i campionati, all’epoca, due, uno federale e uno italiano, in un caso lo vinse la Pro Vercelli e l’altro campionato lo vinse la Juventus, tra l’altro incrociandosi: un anno vinse il federale la Juve e l’anno successivo la Pro Vercelli, un anno vinse il campionato italiano la Pro Vercelli e l’altro la Juventus. Però non si capisce perché quei due scudetti non sono stati onestamente assegnati alla Juventus, mentre nel 1910 si arrivò allo spareggio nei due campionati: lo vinse l’Inter contro la Pro Vercelli." (Resuming: Juventus has already won 29 scudetti, and in our [Guerin Sportivo] opinion the 2 missing scudetti are the championships won in 1908 and 1909, awarded both to Pro Vercelli, but actually in these years there were two championship: Federal and Italian. In a year [1908] Juventus won the Federal Championship and Pro Vercelli the Italian one, in the following year [1909] Pro Vercelli won the Federal title and Juventus the Italian one. In 1910 a playoff was played between the Federal and Italian Champions and this playoff was won by Inter) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.70.71.14 (talk) 21:08, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
• The Viareggio Chart was written in 1926, not in 1929, and created the Championship of Divisione Nazionale (1926), not Serie A! (1929)
  • p. 56 (about Championship 1925-26) "La commissione ... sottopose al presidente del CONI la Carta di Viareggio (allegato n. 4)". Page 57: "Nel frattempo aveva termine il campionato italiano 1925-26..." ("Meanwhile the italian championship 1925-26 ended..."), so the Viareggio Chart was issued in 1926.
  • If you read the Viareggio Chart (Allegato n. 4) "Viene conservata la Divisione Nazionale, ammettendo ad essa, oltre alle 16 squadre... della Lega Nord, tre squadre della Lega Sud... e una ventesima squadra scelta in un torneo ad eliminazione tra le otto squadre eliminate dalla Prima Divisione Lega Nord della stagione decorsa, e non comprese nella Divisione Nazionale... Le 20 squadre della Divisione Nazionale saranno divise in due gironi da dieci squadre ciascuno..." (Resuming: The Top League is therefore called Divisione Nazionale. 20 teams will be admitted: 16 from Northern League, 3 from Southern League and a 20th team, the winner of the Playoffs among the last 8 teams of Prima Divisione Lega Nord 1925-26. These 20 clubs will be divided in two groups of 10 teams each.) So the Viareggio Chart (1926) isn't connected to the birth of Serie A and Serie B (1929), being made 3 years before!
  • CONI "Nell'estate del 1926, per interessamente [sic "interessamento"] diretto del CONI, vennero emanate le "Carte di Viareggio" che operavano una prima distinsione [sic "distinzione"] tra giocatori "dilettanti" e "non dilettanti"."--151.70.34.69 (talk) 19:59, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Okay, very interesting. Please consider that this is English language Wikipedia, so we wouldn't have Italian titles such as "1.a. categoria" etc when then's a perfectly usable and recognisable English variant. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:28, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Also, it's pretty clear that the sources you are using are in direct conflict with the reliable sources used in the list. Could you list each conflicting source and "fact" that's in dispute? Of course, with all the match-rigging etc that's taken place, there's always going to be a certain amount of debate over who won more titles etc, but I'm also interested in the claims your specialist (Italian language) sources are claiming opposed to those used in the article right now. Thanks! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:33, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Wrong redirect

Rugby union player Andrea Marcato wearing the Scudetto

I noticed that on en.wiki the article "Scudetto" redirects to "List of Italian football champions". Actually the Scudetto is the symbol that identifies - for the following season - the incumbent national champion of every sport. Have a look at the photo on the right: Andrea Marcato of Benetton Rugby Treviso wears the jersey with the Scudetto and also a little gold star (that means that his team won 10 or more Italian championships). Thus is improper redirecting Scudetto to this article, as it's not only and not necessarily referred to association football, but to every team sport in Italy for which there is a national championship which assign a title of national Champion. Thanks for the attention. -- SERGIO aka the Black Cat 08:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Moved from WP:AN/RFC

Talk:List of Italian football champions#Wrong redirect

I don't know where else to raise this question, since it is not about the page itself but the redirect page Scudetto. It redirects improperly to List of Italian football champions, though I attempted to raise twice the issue (in 2010 and 2013) that the Scudetto (this symbol) is not only about the Italian association football champions but Italy's every team sports championship champion (see Andrea Marcato wearing the jersey with the Scudetto which symbolizes that his team was the incumbent rugby union Italian champion in the 2005-06 season having won it the previous season). In brief, Scudetto in Italy is not only about (association) football. -- SERGIO aka the Black Cat 11:14, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Juventus' Revoked Championships

The current default iteration that keeps getting reverted to when I edit the article includes the 2004-05 and 2005-06 titles in italics as part of the Juventus list of championships, under "Performance" and "Clubs".

The list should only include titles officially recognized by the F.I.G.C. (or at one point the C.C.I.). The fact that these titles were revoked from Juventus would be better referenced elsewhere in the article. By the standard being applied by the editee, Torino's 1926-27 revoked championship as an example, should also be included in the list. The fact that it isn't leads me to suggest that someone partisan to Juventus is adding these titles in a discriminatory fashion, rather than applying a universal rule which is not in the best interests of disseminating clear, correct information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maranello10 (talk • contribs) 01:41, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

@Maranello10: I was not aware of the revoked title of Torino. If you can find a source, I would welcome it being added in the same fashion as the Juve ones. I am all for universal and consistency so by all means. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 01:52, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

I've added the Torino revoking. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 01:59, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee:. My point of bringing up the Torino revoked title was not to have it included, but to point out that the editee is being partisan, as neither should be included. Could the editee please provide the justification as to why references to these revoked titles should be included under "Performances" (where the titles are assigned to a team) instead of "Serie A" (where they are assigned to a year). In my opinion, by placing them in the "Performances" section, it significantly biases the article as it gives the impression that these revoked titles had some legitimately, which is a claim by a significant proportion of Juventus fans (I am happy, if needed to provide references to this end). By attaching them to the year, the historical context of the titles is in the article but without conferring credit to the aforementioned teams.

@Maranello10: Just because I support a certain team doesn't mean I'm favouring them. I am all for consistency. I added the note to the Juve ones a while back and now, since I was informed, Torino. This is because a reader can go through that list and see what was actually won by them initially. They still did win the league at that time. So this is why we still need to include that they "won" it, but was later revoked. Take a look at Torino F.C.#Honours where they show that they won the 1926-27 title revoked with a similar method we do here with a ¹. I just want all the info there so it is clear. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 13:23, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on List of Italian football champions. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060813073241/http://www.lega-calcio.it/ to http://www.lega-calcio.it/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 06:23, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on List of Italian football champions. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070927194228/http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/internationals/article1166526.ece to http://sport.independent.co.uk/football/internationals/article1166526.ece
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071009063156/http://www.acspezia1906.it/LaStoria/lo_scudetto_del_44_4p.asp to http://www.acspezia1906.it/LaStoria/lo_scudetto_del_44_4p.asp

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:20, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Performances

On the performance table what do the stars mean? Firestar47 (talk) 14:32, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

The star is the Italian badge for 10 championships won. --Tenebra Blu (talk) 15:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Hmm ok. seems a bit unnecessary when you have the number as well. Firestar47 (talk) 20:08, 16 December 2023 (UTC)