Talk:List of British Jewish entertainers

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Freddie Starr, Mick Hucknall, Billy Duffy, Crispian Mills and Pete Burns[edit]

I posed this question some years ago -- are they REALLY Jewish? Anyone know? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.213.166.253 (talk) 12:53, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Are they REALLY Jewish? Don't we need more evidence than Freddie Starr saying Me Mam's Jewish! And Pete Burns? He probably just said that to add drama...Does anyone have real evidence? Billy Duffy of the Cult also claims to be both Jewish and Irish....it's all getting a bit daft -- bear in mind, for some celebrities, it is 'fashionable' and 'hip' to -- oh wow-- 'suddenly realise one is a Jew'....A search for Mick Hucknall's 'Jewish roots' shows that even he thinks it is made-up, an invention. And who says Crispian mills is Jewish? As earlier stated -- it is very fashionable to wake up one day and -- wow -- I never knew I was Jewish all along! All a little daft -- Hucknall and Duffy are as goy-ish as they come!

What's the point of this page?[edit]

What purpose does it serve? People arguing about whether george michael or orlando bloom are jewish or not. Why is that anyone's business? They either are or they're not and it has no relevance to anything. I really don't think there's any reason for such a pointless page to exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.155.223.170 (talk) 09:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The page does have a point -- Jews have contributed significantly the creative dynamism, and to the cultural life of UK -- isn't that something worth recording? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.145.211.32 (talk) 08:50, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Orlando Bloom[edit]

I think we need to remove Orlando Bloom. His surname comes from his stepfather, he has no Jewish ancestry, and has never practiced Judaism (he's currently a Buddhist). See his Wiki article for more details. Indisciplined 20:46, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How do we know that he has no Jewish ancestry? I've seen nothing on his (biological) father's ancestry at all. In any case, the sourced cited, The Jewish Chronicle, refers to him as Jewish, which passes the criteria at the top of Talk:List of British Jews Mad Jack 05:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How old is the Jewish Chroinicle source quoted? It may now be out of date considering the recent revelations about Bloom's parentage. Indisciplined 18:16, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the citation says September 15, 2006 - fairly recent. Mad Jack 18:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's an interesting point. I'm not sure that this source is factually correct given the information about Bloom's parentage that has now come into the public domain. If the definitions used for the list become this broad, it's in real danger of becoming meaningless. Do we have any other sources that could clear the issue up? Indisciplined 18:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the only criteria we have (and should have) is listed on the top of Talk:List of British Jews. Which is that we have a reliable source that explicitly says someone is Jewish (and British), as opposed to their father, mother, etc. Mad Jack 18:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Evan if the source quote might be factually incorrect? Sounds like a hostage to fortune. Indisciplined 18:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But how do we know if it's factually incorrect? Besides, WP:V means verifiability, not truth, so I guess all of Wikipedia is technically a "hostage to fortune" in one sense. Mad Jack 19:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with indisciplined. that source is assuming Bloom's of the same religion as his stepfather but we have no proof of that. even so "celebrity jews in the news" doesn't sound very reliable. we don't know what his biological father was. (Unsigned statement by User:Linestouch)

We do know that the Jewish Chronicle, one of the World's oldest national newspapers, regards him as Jewish. Nobody has ever produced a source that says he isn't Jewish, so it violates WP:NOR to speculate about what religion his father is.--20.138.246.89 15:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

there is doubt being expressed if this be true then maybe we can find some other place supporting this no??? i know what the jewish chronicle is. the same article also mentions kate bosworth and uma thurman in the article as orlando bloom. are they jewish now too??? this is possibly wrong information so i am removing it until it is known for certain. lines touch (how do you sign?)

i know that jewish chronicle implies orlando bloom is jewish but if there is so much doubt to support this conclusion, isn't that a problem? like indiscplined said before, this article may have been made before information leaked that orlando bloom's famous jewish father wasn't his real father, and therefore jewish chronicle is reporting un-updated info. it is better to leave orlando bloom off until it can be 100% confirmed, perhaps by orlando himself, that he is jewish. there is no harm is having this information removed. the orlando bloom article doesnt even mention he is jewish so it is not very publicized info if it is true. LINESTOUCH

We have a recent citation - as noted above, September 15, 2006. It is absurd to say that we should delete sourced information from a reliable source because it might not be up to date. bring a source that says that he isn't Jewish and we can discuss. And George Michael says that his mother was Jewish - it violates WP:NOR to deny this.--20.138.246.89 10:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

i took your advice and read RS, NOR, and V. i also found NPOV and BLP and found:

We must get the article right.[1] Be very firm about high quality references, particularly about details of personal lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just highly questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles[2]

i am following the rules and removing orlando bloom based on that

please read George Michael autobiography "Bare" he says his grandmother was from a jewish family, not his mother. there is no source that says orlando bloom isnt jewish because there is no source on his heritage at all. this is why this should be removed LINESTOUCH

"Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material" - firstly, a citation from an established national newspaper is not a poor source. Secondly, there is nothing contentious here. As for George Michael, thete is a quote: "Michael explained that his mom, Lesley, and her family were Jewish, but felt a need to hide it."--Brownlee 22:21, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

are you saying a reporter's word is better than george michael's? and yes, this is contentious material. nobody has ever shown a statement from orlando bloom where he says he is jewish.

George Michael says explicitly that his mother was Jewish. And since when do you need a statement from the person himself about his ethnicity?--R613vlu 13:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

no, george michael says explicitly his grandmother was of jewish descent. please read his biography entitled "Bare." it goes into great detail. please write what the man says not what someone else says he said. why are there no other places that say orlando bloom is jewish? how come i can find many places that say woody allen is jewish but none that say orlando bloom is?? isn't it possible that this is a mistake and by including it here we are perpetuating the mistake?? 06:34, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

He has also described his mother as Jewish. It is original research to go further than that. As for Orlando Bloom, Wikipedia reports verifiable facts, not speculation.--Brownlee 18:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

according to what I read, original research refers to information that is not cited by sources. that george michael's grandmother was jewish, and not his mother, is supported by his autobiography. so you apparently don't know what you're talking about. as for orlando bloom, i see no source that says he is jewish. would you please provide one? the source that is next to his name right now also implies uma thurman and kate bosworth are jewish. why are they not on jewish lists too then? Linestouch

Barry Cryer[edit]

The only proof given that he's supposedly Jewish is that he was involved in a documentary about Jewish comedians. He's *worked* with a lot of Jewish comedians! I've never seen him say anything about his ancestry or religion, other than that his father was a Mason (from his autobiography). So I'd recommend taking him off the list unless there's more I don't know about.

Bangdrum 04:24, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done Mad Jack 08:08, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Freddie Starr[edit]

Freddie Starr claims a jewish mother. Does that mean he is Jewish and to be included here? Im not sure if the list only records those attending synagogue, ethnic jews, or some other unknown criteria to make a brit jewish. It was reversed on the Freddie Starr page which is why im back to have it clarified. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.29.233.119 (talk) 19:19, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Eric Morecambe[edit]

Shouldn't Eric Morecambe (born Eric Bartholomew) be listed under `Comedians'? Barney Bruchstein (talk) 18:13, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Two tags[edit]

Article needs BLP tag, not just a hidden note most people won't see. (I didn't.) Plus someone just created a bunch of external links with numbers which certainly will be a mess to clean up. Anyone have a macro? CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:34, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Article needs to be tidied-up[edit]

This is a great page, but needs tidying up. Some artists are repeated twice, and the catch all - "Others" includes some major and minor stars. Nigella Lawson and Heston Blumenthal, but also Caprice?

On a more subjective point, the page also understates the real importance of the contribution of Jewish entertainers to British culture - artistic and cultural over the last 90 years. Can someone right something more positive about the overall contribution of all these artists? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.158.5.47 (talk) 16:31, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

BUT WHAT ABOUT...?[edit]

There's more British Musicians than that!!! I mean what about... Nicole, Natalie Appleton and Melanie Blatt of All Saints, Anthony Costa of Blue, Victor Feldman, Mick Green of Johnny Kidd And The Pirates, Terry Hall of The Specials, Mick Hucknall of Simply Red, Jason Kay of Jamirioquai, Keith Levene of Public Image Limited, Manfred Mann of Manfred Mann, Crispian Mills of Kula Shaker, Oi Va Voi, Keith Reid and Matthew Fisher of Procol Harum, Gavin Rossdale of Bush, Shlomo, Slaughter And The Dogs, Derek, Ray and Phil Schulman of Gentle Giant, Rachel Stevens of S Club 7, Sharon Tandy, Frankie Vaughan, John Weider of Eric Burdon And The New Animals and Eric Woolfson of The Alan Parsons Project... WHAT ABOUT THEM!?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.149.118.242 (talk) 09:12, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OH and...[edit]

Marianne Faithful (120.149.118.242 (talk) 10:34, 30 November 2012 (UTC))[reply]

AND LET'S NOT FORGET...[edit]

Adam Ant, Clive Langer of Deaf School, Malcolm McLaren, and Siouxsie Sioux

Adam Ant is not Jewish -- neither is Siouxsie Sioux. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.183.180.228 (talk) 17:25, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ADD THEM, ADD THEM TO THE LIST OF BRITISH ENTERTAINERS NOW!!![edit]

And...[edit]

Alex Clare! (120.149.119.245 (talk) 07:48, 11 December 2012 (UTC))[reply]

AND!!! Ray Ellington and Max Geldray — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.149.119.245 (talk) 11:47, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And...[edit]

Gilad Atzmon (120.149.119.245 (talk) 12:03, 11 December 2012 (UTC))[reply]

AND!...[edit]

Chaz Jankel, Ronnie Scott, Joseph Scott, Geraldo, Sydeny Kyhee, Joe Loss, Harry Roy, Billy Astell. Hary Gold, Ivor Mairank and Troy Crombie!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.149.120.2 (talk) 11:14, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

AND!!!...[edit]

George Michael — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.149.112.116 (talk) 09:12, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

AND!!!!!!!!![edit]

Scott Walker IS Jewish!!! (120.149.112.116 (talk) 12:15, 17 January 2013 (UTC))[reply]

And you have reliable sources for all these? If so, do tell us. And please stop SHOUTING. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:48, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This clown is doing the rounds on dozens of musician's articles, invariably claiming they are Jewish but never providing sources. He seems to have an obsession with British entertainers in particular for some reason. Don't let the small amount of edits in his contribution page fool you, he changes his IP address regularly. He's easy enough to spot though: Australian IP address in the 120 range and the same deluded M.O. Get a life, son.--Icegrommet (talk) 00:00, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Spying on me huh? Tisk, tisk, tisk. I should report you to the proper authorities. But alas I won't... Just watch what you say, you clown! No one wonder Wikipedia is considered so evil on so many sites, it spies on people!!! (120.149.120.78 (talk) 03:09, 1 February 2013 (UTC))[reply]

You'll report me? That's a good one. Considering your flagrant disregard for editing rules, you'd be about as popular with the arbitrators as a bridge salesman. You have zero credibility, in other words, and you've got no one else to blame for that but yourself. And evil? Why, for requiring that Wikipedia be held to the same rigorous standards as professional encyclopaedias? For asking that editors actually prove their claims with reliable sources? The nerve! If Wikipedia has come to have a poor reputation, it's only because of unscrupulous editors who distort facts and treat the place like their own personal playground. Much like yourself then, eh fella?
As for your little list, I will say this: an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof. Most of the people that you mentioned above are not Jewish in any sense, nor have they ever claimed that they are Jewish, NOR has anyone else for that matter. And this is the crux of the issue: there's a very simple and obvious reason why you don't provide reliable sources - because they don't exist. But don't let that deter you! Why not just say they are anyway and hope no one notices? "If you throw enough sh*t at the wall, some of it will stick" seems to be your carefully thought out approach. Equally absurd is your criteria for deciding who is Jewish. For instance, you once claimed that Adam Faith of all people was a Jew because he changed his name! You see, only Jews change their names, therefore he must be a Jew. Genius! Other examples include Scott Walker (Engel is a German surname. Only Jews have German surnames!), Siouxsie Sioux (wrote a song about Israel!) and Mick Hucknall (because... actually I have no fricking idea!). Do yourself a favour kid, stop this fantasy nonsense and find a more wholesome pursuit. What you're doing is destructive, dishonest, and frankly quite distasteful.--Icegrommet (talk) 22:44, 8 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You're a creep! Hope you get COVID! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:554E:7801:3953:A7C7:D925:B378 (talk) 13:09, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please, talk to me[edit]

Please, talk to me calmly and rationally I gave a list of British Jewish musicians and I gave them sources and references yet you still go and delete more than half the names I put a lot of time and effort into that. So why did you delete them why? Huh? (120.149.124.83 (talk) 12:01, 22 March 2014 (UTC))[reply]

Mark Knopfler?[edit]

Half-Jewish, British, not on the list? any particular reason? ...SomethingElse... (talk) 02:15, 31 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Done and done, and I mean done! LOVE Mark Knopfler! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.208.161.217 (talk) 08:10, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Sister Bliss is Jewish[edit]

Shouldn't she be on this page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.182.67.26 (talk) 14:52, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Sophie Winkleman[edit]

Sophie Winkleman has a gentile mother and was raised as an Anglican. Her father has declared himself a non-practising Jew, and attended an Anglican school. Not that it matters, but I thought that Wikipedia prided itself on accuracy! 115.87.153.220 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:14, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in List of British Jewish entertainers[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of British Jewish entertainers's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Obit":

  • From Alice Herz-Sommer: Greenberg, Louise. "The Guardian obituary for Raphael Sommer, "Cellist whose musical flair survived a concentration camp"". The Guardian. 28 November 2001. Retrieved 1 November 2014.
  • From Jenny Diski: Kate Kellaway (28 April 2016). "Jenny Diski obituary". The Guardian. Retrieved 28 April 2016.
  • From David Rose (songwriter): "Composer, Conductor David Rose Dies". The Pittsburgh Press. August 25, 1990. Retrieved June 3, 2011.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 01:41, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in List of British Jewish entertainers[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of British Jewish entertainers's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "frs":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 05:58, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in List of British Jewish entertainers[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of British Jewish entertainers's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Guardian obit":

Reference named "LarkinGE":

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The current definition of an "entertainer".[edit]

The definition of entertainer as used in this listthis list now includes;

well known writers, social reformers, journalists, intellectuals, painters, photographers, fashion designers, sculptors, entrepreneurs and creative artists

Which is ludicrous. Entertainers are people who entertain. Social reformers, journalists, intellectuals, painters, photographers, fashion designers, sculptors, entrepreneurs, however socially valuable, do not entertain. They enlighten, inform, argue, etc, but do not deliver "amusement or diversion" (Merriam-Webster) or, worse are "a person whose job is to sing, dance or perform for people so that they enjoy themselves" (Oxford learners dictionary). By broadening the definition this much, the list, basically, degenerates into a list of Jewish public figures, which does not fit the title. Kleuske (talk) 09:04, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in List of British Jewish entertainers[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of British Jewish entertainers's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Guardian":

Reference named "stereo":

  • From EMI: "Early stereo recordings restored". BBC. 1 August 2008. Archived from the original on 7 August 2008. Retrieved 7 August 2008. Blumlein lodged the patent for 'binaural sound', in 1931, in a paper which patented stereo records, stereo films and also surround sound. He and his colleagues then made a series of experimental recordings and films to demonstrate the technology, and see if there was any commercial interest from the fledgling film and audio industry.
  • From Isaac Shoenberg: "Early stereo recordings restored". BBC News. 1 August 2008. Archived from the original on 7 August 2008. Retrieved 7 August 2008. Blumlein lodged the patent for 'binaural sound', in 1931, in a paper which patented stereo records, stereo films and also surround sound. He and his colleagues then made a series of experimental recordings and films to demonstrate the technology, and see if there was any commercial interest from the fledgling film and audio industry.
  • From Alan Blumlein: "Early stereo recordings restored". BBC. 1 August 2008. Archived from the original on 7 August 2008. Retrieved 7 August 2008. Blumlein lodged the patent for 'binaural sound', in 1931, in a paper which patented stereo records, stereo films and also surround sound. He and his colleagues then made a series of experimental recordings and films to demonstrate the technology, and see if there was any commercial interest from the fledgling film and audio industry.

Reference named "Debretts":

Reference named "MT45":

Reference named "family":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 11:24, 6 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mass deletion[edit]

I have just reverted a mass deletion of content (diff) by @Binksternet. This was radical and the criteria used seemed to go against the definition of what being Jewish is at Jews - "Generally, in modern secular usage, Jews include three groups: people who were born to a Jewish family regardless of whether or not they follow the religion, those who have some Jewish ancestral background or lineage (sometimes including those who do not have strictly matrilineal descent), and people without any Jewish ancestral background or lineage who have formally converted to Judaism and therefore are followers of the religion." Take, for example, one of the deleted entries, Fenella Fielding. She was born to Jewish parents - so meets the first of the criteria above. Her 90th birthday and her death were both featured in the Jewish Chronicle, the first article mentioning that she celebrates Passover with her brother. So why was she deleted? I feel that the very strict definition applied by Binksternet - those that practice the religion - is too strict and goes against what is applied in nearly all other articles on Jewish people. So per WP:BRD, Binksternet was bold, but I have reverted and now initiated a discussion. 10mmsocket (talk) 06:57, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia's categories divide Jewishness into two parts: those who embrace Jewish culture or religion, and those who have Jewish descent and nothing more. This article's inclusion criteria should clear out those with mere descent which will have the side benefit of reducing its bloated size. Whatever we decide on inclusion criteria should be described explicitly in the introduction, with a hidden comment reminder at the top of each section. Kleuske's talk page comment from last July is still relevant: we should also be removing entrepreneurs and writers who are not entertainers. Binksternet (talk) 17:26, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's somewhat superfluous to state I agree with Binksternet, here, per my comment last july, but in the mean time the bloat has gotten bloatier. Having looked it over (without a deep dive into all removed entries, but still sampling a fair number) I fully support Binksternet's action. I was tempted to just revert 10mmsocket revert, but this is, I think, the better approach. Kleuske (talk) 20:49, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that. Regarding the idea that someone can be labelled Jewish because of their parentage rather than their own beliefs or actions—the Nazis ruined that. I will never consider someone to be Jewish solely because they had a maternal grandmother who was Jewish. Our over-enthusiastic IP friend from Korea (using Special:Contributions/175.203.93.215, Special:Contributions/2002:A398:D27E:0:0:0:0:0/64, Special:Contributions/220.123.24.0/21, Special:Contributions/163.152.208.0/21, Special:Contributions/211.194.120.0/21, Special:Contributions/119.203.248.0/21 and Special:Contributions/119.204.88.0/21) has shown that they follow the old school definitions. I think we've progressed beyond that; I don't think it is appropriate to construct a Jewish label for a person if they don't identify as such. Binksternet (talk) 21:07, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So what about the aforementioned Fenella Fielding? 10mmsocket (talk) 21:45, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fielding should stay in as you argued so well. Binksternet (talk) 00:00, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am going to make a second "mass deletion" but with Fenella Fielding staying in. If you see any others who should stay in, feel free to return them. I'm also removing non-entertainers such as producers, directors, writers, managers, impresarios, critics, painters, trustees, academics, patrons, theorists, activists, barristers, etc. Common-and-garden radio and TV news readers should be removed, but I am not going to spend the time to ferret out these names from the list of broadcasters. They are perhaps entertaining at times, but arguably not "entertainers". Professional journalists should not be considered entertainers without sources describing an individual as such, for instance Jerry Springer who started a tabloid TV show. Poets who read their works aloud might be entertainers if sources support the label. The big pruning action brought the bloat from 386 kb to a reasonable 143 kb. Binksternet (talk) 20:43, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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