Talk:Libertarian science fiction

David Brin

David Brin is anything but a Libertarian; consider, for example, The Postman, where the main conflict is the struggle to re-establish centralised government in the face of fanatically anarcho-libertarian opposition. Removed him from the list accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by King of Men (talk • contribs)

"fanatically anarcho-libertarian opposition"? Sorry, but I don't think I would classify the 'bad guys' in Postman with those terms. They were pretty much slave-owning, misogynistic survivalists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.188.33.222 (talk • contribs)

umm - no. In the Postman the protagonist establishes a PRIVATE mail service as a personal method of staying connected to society and is reluctantly drawn into a fight to save a nascent and very free society that is essentially libertarian from a totalitarian state that is almost exactly a parody of a 'super-race' nazi organization —Preceding unsigned comment added by Owenl1998 (talk • contribs) 18:50, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I think David Brin does not accurately pigeonhole as libertarian.

David Brin has written for the Prometheus newsletter for libertarian science fiction (writing "The name I give my own brand of libertarianism [is] 'cheerful libertarianism'"), has given keynote speeches to the US Libertarian Party's National Convention, etc. He is clearly a libertarian, and his work is clearly libertarian science fiction. Bastin 11:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Kind of morbid to have a cross denoting a Prometheus award ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.252.234.190 (talk) 17:32, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Ayn Rand

I think on the science fiction end of libertarian science fictioners, at least those I've read or talked with, Robert A. Heinlein is viewed more favorably than Ayn Rand. I know she fits more to the general populace, but she didn't consider herself libertarian or a science fiction author.--T. Anthony 05:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

It is an interesting question whether Ayn Rand really is an SF-author. The Fountainhead contains no SF elements at all. Atlas Shrugged describes a few fictional technologies (Galt's motor, Rearden metal and a sonic weapon), but the novel is not as "science-fictional" as, for example, Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. CalleC (talk) 15:41, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Atlas Shrugged is a as science fiction as a techno-thriller. It is in the very extended lands of SF. Anthem IS science fiction - in the same way that 1984 and Brave New World are. But Rand is not "primarily" an SF author. William Alan Ritch 14:37, 15 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by BillRitch (talk • contribs)

Terry Pratchett

Is there a source confirming Terry Pratchett as a libertarian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Groceryheist (talk • contribs) 02:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

He won the Prometheus Award for libertarian science fiction. Ergo, he writes libertarian science fiction. Bastin 11:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

That's a pretty poor metric. Pratchett has written around 50 books. One has won the award. It is a pretty clear implication that a list of authors in the "Libertarian science fiction" page would be primarily libertarian science fiction writers -- primarily, which is a better metric than "has ever written one." Ayn Rand falls into the category properly. Heinlein does as well. Pratchett is a harder sell, and Bradbury's breadth of scope makes it almost an injustice to call him a "science fiction writer," let alone "libertarian science fiction."

No matter what, this list is most definitely uncited and unsubstantiated outside of this article, and would break the no original research rule. A (more prominent, as one already exists) link to the Prometheus Award winners in that section would be appropriate, as that is substantiated. From there, one can judge for themselves. 71.123.183.127 (talk) 08:56, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Very few of Terry Pratchett's books take a libertarian stance -- Night Watch, which won the Prometheus award, may be the only one. Judging by the effectiveness of the enlightened despot of Discworld, the Patrician, one would have a better argument that Pratchett supports a Platonic viewpoint toward government.67.119.14.201 (talk) 02:48, 17 May 2009 (UTC) carnyasada

Read Going Postal, then try to tell me Pratchett writes pro-libertarian fiction. The villain is a not-so-subtle parody of Rand's John Galt, "Reacher Gilt", who runs a company by cutting corners and trying to make a profit at the cost of quality. The hero is the head of a government funded organisation which handily out competes Galt due to his cost-cutting measures; after which Galt is found guilty of having embezzled money. It's a very very good book and I hope Libertarian fans of Pratchett got the message the man was trying to send - their philosophy doesn't work! --129.11.13.73 (talk) 00:48, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Iain M Banks

Does Iain M Banks count? I'm thinking of his novels about The Culture. 86.164.188.106 (talk) 01:10, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Why is this sentence here...

"Libertarian science fiction authors who have not won the award include..." - uh, what? Why the heck should there be such a line? Did someone get funny and insert "not"? What's going on here? 198.179.147.71 (talk) 13:52, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, most peculiar. I checked related pages and none of these writers are mentioned as winners or even runners-up, so "not" is so not the issue! The sentence has three references built into it, so I suspect it's an attempt to add some examples of other libertarian writers, but then clarify they were not winners. To preserve the good references, I've broken it to a new paragraph and reworded it to "Some other prominent libertarian science fiction authors include ...". Bricaniwi (talk) 02:42, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Problems

We don't generally speak of "liberal fiction" or "conservative fiction", but rather fiction by liberal or conservative authors; no justification is given for why "libertarian fiction" should be an exception. No source is given for the claim that "libertarian fiction is unusual because the vast majority of its authors are self-identified as science fiction authors. This contrasts with the authors of much other social criticism who are largely academic or mainstream novelists who tend to dismiss any genre classification." It appears to me that this conclusion is largely a result of the way "libertarian fiction" is being defined. If works by authors identifying as libertarian generally were included, there seems to be a good likelihood that this conclusion would appear far less obvious. It might be more accurate to say that science fiction has a large degree of overlap with utopian fiction, and as there are libertarian "utopias" as well as liberal, conservative, socialist, and fascist "utopias", works which explore the potential realization of any of these ideologies in a "utopian" setting may be categorized (or miscategorized) as science fiction. RandomCritic (talk) 14:09, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

For similar reasons, I too was at first surprised to see this article, but on reflection I can see the exception is very valid. Many real examples of both "conservative" and "liberal" societies have existed and still exist in the real world, so it's not much of a stretch to extrapolate their dynamics into fiction, including science fiction and both utopian and dystopian fiction (science-based or not). On the other hand, as far as I know, functioning libertarian societies (utopian or not) do not actually exist, and never have. As a result, the only option authors who identify as libertarian have for writing about examples of their ideas is to create them in "libertarian fiction" (science-based or not).

I certainly learned a lot from reading this fascinating article, despite its promotional tone, so for me it fulfils the usefulness criteria. -- Bricaniwi (talk) 02:14, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I recently came across this article (http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/sf-history.html) which may be helpful in the discussion, It really starts to pick up and address a question like this toward the last 1/6th of the piece I believe. Please read it. I hope it opens this discussion up a little and provides some reasoning behind this - thorsmitersaw 10:36, Feb 2011

Orwell

It's wildly inaccurate to imply that George Orwell contributed to libertarian science fiction. He was a vocal advocate of socialism. Could we either A): clarify, or B): remove the reference entirely? Samcashion (talk) 09:52, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

The Dispossessed

While Le Guin's "The Dispossessed" can be described as "libertarian", and it certainly matches the original definition of the term, it doesn't fit with this page. The definition of libertarianism used here is the one common in modern US culture - right-anarchism, where as "The Dispossessed" is one of the clearest examples of books of left-anarchism. The page describes "private ownership of the means of production" - there is no private ownership of anything in the Utopia of Anarres. 77.124.26.41 (talk) 02:08, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Libertarian science fiction. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080905184510/http://www.spectrumliteraryagency.com/swann.htm to http://www.spectrumliteraryagency.com/swann.htm
• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://www.ncc-1776.com/tle1996/le960509.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:19, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Vovchenko

I removed this book from notable works. There's evidence that the book and author exist, but I can't find reliable sources saying this novel is a notable libertarian sci fi work. * Iurii Vovchenko, World War 3 and 1/3rd OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 17:57, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

References